SuzukiHayabusa.org
TECHNICAL => ALL MOTOR TALK => Topic started by: Chuck Wilburn on December 06, 2007, 04:15:50 PM
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I'm sick of guys posting this 230hp 1397 bullshit. 1397s don't make that much- their doing good to get close to 220 with fuel/sidewinder/rods, compression etc... Not just off the shelf pistons and a good head/cams. We made a video today showing how people can , and do, manipulate the weather station on their dynos to show more power. Enjoy-
http://www.tupeloperformancecycles.com/dyno_service.htm
The video is about 5 minutes long so give it time to load. You'll notice a few skips in the video- at the end it sounds like I say "8", but I really said "18"- you'll know what I mean when you see it.
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Glad that you did this. I have known for years that there are no everyday street riden, 230HP, 1 battery starting, do not overheat, pump gas 1397's. There may be some with that bore, but not with stock stroke. I am sure you are going to get a bunch of bashing for saying it, but you had the balls to post it. :beechug:
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Awesome video. I know there are tons of ways to manipulate the dyno and the horsepower gains when something as simple as a pipe and pc are added.
But THANK YOU for posting that. You've definately are an honorable person and shop.
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Thanks guys- heres the same link over on psychobike- lot's of veiws and discussion.
http://psychobike.com/cgi-bin/ikonboard.cgi?s=e9ec4dc8e34c58564e6bbe69cbd36ca2;act=ST;f=1;t=52718;
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Yes can be very misleading.
Have seen 10bhp jump from run 1 to run 10. How many times you see runs posted that show run 1,2 or 3 as the base run. Then spend an hour putting heat into chassis, tyre and room and at final run its another 6bhp. But, if you then put zero map back in it will say for example be like 1 or 2bhp different.
15bhp gain or loss from swapping tyres. This is common place on high power machines. Fit a touring tyre over a 16.5" dunlop and you can add 15bhp easily.
And then there is cheating the weather station as shown here which is open to those figures and more. I've even heard of some shops putting a hair dryer in front of the stack whilst ramming cold air into the engine.
Run in 4th or 5th gear and different readings.
Slacken the straps holding th ebike down for base runs and then pull tight on final runs, easy 6-8bhp on big bike like busa.
Then there is of course race gas. None of the classes i build for allow it so i always use pump stuff. But i understand some of the VP is worth up to 10bhp.
So add all that together and its easy to put 40bhp onto a set of runs.
You need to look at conditions closely as well as the tyre slip graphs.
And if you are an honest engine tuner don't get disheartened when you see some of these figures.
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My numbers are always real PERIOD.
There was a reason I made sure I could run a dyno correctly before I started mapping on one
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:thumb:
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Ive heard of people waving a N20 hose in front of the air box also.When the owner is not present.
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thanks for having the balls to show people this stuff. i am in the business of performance harleys and i go through the same bullshit with people talking shit because of dyno numbers. i race harleys and busas and an old h-2 triple. I've seen bikes go alot faster at the track with less #s than another bike, even with the same rider on the different bikes. thumbs to chuck for using a dyno for tuning and not just selling stories. :thumb:
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As long as there are people with big $$ in their pockets wanting to see big HP #'s it will never stop.
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I am proud to say this but I have never fudged dyno numbers,EVER. I have seen plenty of 225-229hp 1397's and a few 230-235hp
MPH is the end result.
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True about the mph Spaz- but hp varies greatly form dyno to dyno. Or it may have to do with what part of the country the dyno is in. I'm not saying you fudged any numbers, I've spoke with you enough and seen your work around long enough to believe you wouldn't do that. But I have had some of your motors on my dyno and none of them have made anywhere close to that kind of power. Again, that's on my dyno. I have no doubt in my mind that they make what you say on your dyno or the dyno you were using. As a matter of fact- the bike (given that nothing has been changed on it) makes the same hp on any dyno- it's the dyno that changes- not the bike. That's why I made this video, to try and show people how a dyno can vary or be manipulated and show them that just because they get a head from a guy claiming it has made 220+, that doesn't mean they will see that hp on their local dyno. It doesn't mean he didn't get the power he paid for, it just means the dyno he's on isn't showing it.
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True about the mph Spaz- but hp varies greatly form dyno to dyno. Or it may have to do with what part of the country the dyno is in. I'm not saying you fudged any numbers, I've spoke with you enough and seen your work around long enough to believe you wouldn't do that. But I have had some of your motors on my dyno and none of them have made anywhere close to that kind of power. Again, that's on my dyno. I have no doubt in my mind that they make what you say on your dyno or the dyno you were using. As a matter of fact- the bike (given that nothing has been changed on it) makes the same hp on any dyno- it's the dyno that changes- not the bike. That's why I made this video, to try and show people how a dyno can vary or be manipulated and show them that just because they get a head from a guy claiming it has made 220+, that doesn't mean they will see that hp on their local dyno. It doesn't mean he didn't get the power he paid for, it just means the dyno he's on isn't showing it.
Chuck, you are making a number of interesting points but I believe you are getting to the core of the problem in what you say above. Without ruling out dishonest practices, I do think there are material variations between different dyno's, and their respective weather stations and the correction factors that they create, which can lead to legitimate differences of opinion as to the potential of a particular combination.
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I agree. Since I put this video up on psychobike there's been quite a healthy discussion over there! A couple of guys have made mention of dynos in different parts of the country reading differently- given that no tom-foolery was involved. I notice that most of the higher hp claims come from the Northern climates. You don't here of any big numbers coming from Florida or Mississippi. When I first got my dyno I thought that the correction factor would accomidate for any weather/atmospheric condition therefore a bike should dyno the same no matter where in the country it was or what the conditions were. But we've proved that not to be so.
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Chuck, I've seen a bike gain 15hp when dyno'd on 2 different DJ250's here in Sydney OZ, on the same day, 3hrs duration between pulls 15miles apart, both times strapped and 45psi in the rear.
Now the guy with the dyno that reads"lower" is always struggling as the other guy claims this and that. like alot over in the states as well.
If you are very clever, Winpep software can be "manipulated" too :thumb:
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... When I first got my dyno I thought that the correction factor would accomidate for any weather/atmospheric condition therefore a bike should dyno the same no matter where in the country it was or what the conditions were. But we've proved that not to be so.
Yes indeed!
I have had my bike on half a dozen DynoJet 250's incl Spaz, JohnnyCheese, Tejas and i keep good records. several hundred pulls.
When temp is low and baro high, the DJ 250 always shows more hp, no matter how careful/honest the operator is about his weatherstation.
I like the DJ250 because i can get a bunch of info in 1 sweep, but i don't really trust numbers done on different days with different air.
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My dyno, and I think all, is very consistant day to day. I know what my test bike should make before I ever put it up there and no matter what the conditions, it always makes what I expect. Or I'll dyno a bike that I pulled 6 months ago, pull up the old dyno run and it's the same now is it was then. The trouble comes when trying to compare to another dyno.
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I congratulate you for posting up Chuck. There are plenty of shops where the operators don't understand the operation, weather station, tyre slip graph, etc etc. Don't let the those that slam you get to you, many don't understand and don't want to hear so just let them continue on blindly
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THIS IS WHY YOU SHOULD ALWAYS TEST ON SAE...............
standard correction factor..............
no weather conditions will change the output too drastic
Ive tested on several dynos all dynojet 250s or 200s and they are ALL within 5hp - 8 hp on SAE scale.......This is from local shops and out of state shops............
On my dyno numbers are like this on SAE
average busa.....152-155
06 zx10.....160
05 gsxr 1000.......160
06 zx14..........162
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I just corrected the bogus run to SAE and it only droped it 3hp.
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SAE will still be a long way out if the air pressure is wrong. XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX - section removed - XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX. You will see about 20bhp between them on a busa.
Chuck isn't saying everyone with high bhp is doing this, he's just informing those that don't understand to pay attention to this.
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I notice that most of the higher hp claims come from the Northern climates. You don't here of any big numbers coming from Florida or Mississippi.
Same with MPH at the track - we only make it strong in winter... :thumb:
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I just corrected the bogus run to SAE and it only droped it 3hp.
I get .02 which is the same any day of the year
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Im not talking about making any changes to the stack.Im saying if you compare any dyno on sae on any day from a shop that hasnt messed with the stack they should all be close......
I know what point chuck is trying to get across and I believe that there are guys that do it to sell there product....On my dyno the power is the lowest of all other big builders yet my motors mph and et great for the low numbers.......your only cheating yourself if you mess with the stack....
YOu have a starting point and you see your increase no matter what the final number is....Take it to the track and run a number with it.....that proves it all.........
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:thumb:
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There R alot of head porter's out there these days. Some good...... some not so good. But I guarantee 4 the money U won't find a better head then mine that U can make good power with small cams. Thous keeping it a true street bike. I have built 235hp 1397's but U can't run them on pump gas either
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Im not talking about making any changes to the stack.Im saying if you compare any dyno on sae on any day from a shop that hasnt messed with the stack they should all be close......
I know what point chuck is trying to get across and I believe that there are guys that do it to sell there product....On my dyno the power is the lowest of all other big builders yet my motors mph and et great for the low numbers.......your only cheating yourself if you mess with the stack....
YOu have a starting point and you see your increase no matter what the final number is....Take it to the track and run a number with it.....that proves it all.........
I have to disagree.
I had 5 stacks all sitting in the same place and not one had the correct Absolute altitude reading.
some had me at 1700 feet below sealevel others at sea level I am at 732 above
I agree if you start with something on that dyno and end with it on the same dyno it is apples to apples and the gain is real in% but..............
How do you tell a customer that his 1397 only makes 180hp????
I would not be in bussiness very long
the only way I knew my numbers where off was the track numbers told me so (MPH does't lie)
I want a real correction factor period. and there is only one way to do that and show it on a sheet. get your absolute reading correct.
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There is or used to be drum mass calibration issues as well. As I recall, default values for drum mass were frequently being encoded when actual values should have been entered. If actual is higher than default, then the dyno will read low; if actual is less than default, it will read high.
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There is or used to be drum mass calibration issues as well. As I recall, default values for drum mass were frequently being encoded when actual values should have been entered. If actual is higher than default, then the dyno will read low; if actual is less than default, it will read high.
that's 1 DF :thumb:
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Are there more? :)
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Yeah, hair dryer in front of the stack whilst blowing cold winter air at the bikes ramair intakes.
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ET, the question was asked in the context of software.
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Yeah, you can mess with the drum calibration and it won't show with high correction factors.
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alot of ways to cheat.....................................................yourself!!!! :thumb:
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Hey Chuck you know that turbo you sold me and installed that we both blew head gaskets with and you shaved my cyl & head because of , was it the same one that the man from aberdeen burnt pistons with? You know, its the one that you told me didnt need to be able to adj. the boost on.
Im a little sick myself
Tommy Cole
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No Tommy, the man from Aberdeen brought me that turbo to install. It ran fine until he asked me to turn the boost up after I already showed him on the dyno where he was running close to lean and the injectors were at 100%. It was his decision to turn the boost up and he paid the price. Not that it's any business of yours. If you have more to talk to me about your bike, you know where my shop is.
Now instead of being an ass trying to bash me on a forum, lets tell the whole story. First head gasket blew after you picked the bike up from me. I said lets put studs in it and a new gasket. You pay for the studs/gasket, I'll do the work for free. Gasket blew again on the dyno before you picked it up, I took the bike down again for free, straightend up the cylinder/block from you running it hot, put a cometic gasket in, added a .030 spacer plate all for free. Cost you 10hp and now you're not happy. But I clearly remember you saying do whatever it takes to make it stay together- I did. Your bike runs fine now but you want to cry. What about Stedman? Yeah, I know all about that too- could he not make you happy either? Evidently not or you wouldn't have come to my shop after leaving his wanting to sell back your turbo.
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You are rite chuck nobody can make me happy with that turbo. I was mistaken in that i thought he bought it from you.But you sold me a turbo with no boost adjustment and i believe you knew it. I have no intention of ever goin to your shop again, too many trips there already. I aint hard to find either.
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I had never had that turbo on anything. I took it on consignment from Don Mason out of Ohio. Give me a call, I'll be glad to give you his number. If you have a problem with the turbo, why aren't you bashing Velocity- they made the thing, not me. It has the adjustment for the boost, I can't help it if it won't work. Thats why I spent a lot of time on the phone with Velocity trying to starighten it out. Once we realized that there was no getting it down, the next best thing I could do was set the motor up to handle a little extra boost. That's what I did, all free to you, and now the bike runs perfect so what's the problem?
Just so you know, your little "ambush" here doesn't bother me in the least. At the end of the day, I can sit down across form you at the dinner table, look you straight in the eye, and still enjoy my meal. Good luck to you.
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You are rite chuck nobody can make me happy with that turbo. I was mistaken in that i thought he bought it from you.But you sold me a turbo with no boost adjustment and i believe you knew it. I have no intention of ever goin to your shop again, too many trips there already. I aint hard to find either.
:roll:
:ahole:
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This is exactly why i take most dyno claims with a grain of salt. Unless you've done a before and after under nearly the same conditions on the SAME dyno, you really don't know what you've got.
My 03 ran 152hp in 5th gear (I think) last winter in the lower 50s. I did some mods (full exhaust, pciii map, airbox) and got back on the same dyno, this time in sweltering 95 deg heat and only got 6hp, bike practically overheating. Now the butt dyno says I likely picked up more than that, as the bike runs pulls completely different now. (Unfortunately I don't recall if my numbers were STD or SAE)
So, like I said, unless it's same bike, same conditions on same dyno, you just never no.
On another note, I hear that most guys pull runs in 4th, which gear should it be done in, and which one reads higher/lower?
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I pull in 4th for most bikes. I only go to 5th/6th if it's abig hp bike to keep from spinning the tire. I've heard guys say the dyno will read higher in higher gears but I haven't seen that to be true.
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If you pull in 4th or 5th it will be almost the same. 5th gear will make maybe 1 more hp.....
If its a harley it will always make more in 5th.....you want to get the bike to pull around 150mph...It will also give you a bit longer to see how the a/f is
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Very interesting thread. Its just like racing, if theres a way to cheat some people will.
I wonder how many weather stations are just plain set up wrong. You see some dynos consistantly reading higher than others, and I wonder how well they were set up to begin with.
Whats the procedure for setting it up when you first get the dyno? Or is it self configuring?
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Chuck,
great thread!
Q: I see a whole lot more (reproducible) detail on my Innovate AF logs than I see on the Dynojet AF trace. Have you ever tweaked a Powercommander map on your DJ using the logged AF?????
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Don't have a data logger on anything but that's not a bad isea.
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Very interesting thread. Its just like racing, if theres a way to cheat some people will.
I wonder how many weather stations are just plain set up wrong. You see some dynos consistantly reading higher than others, and I wonder how well they were set up to begin with.
Whats the procedure for setting it up when you first get the dyno? Or is it self configuring?
No, plenty of shops just run and pay no attention to weather and tyre slip, both hugely important.
It can be calibrated but also they can go faulty. I'm on my 3rd one in 3 years. If you never check you could quite easily be up or down 15bhp or more on a hayabusa. You really must have a 2nd realiable weather station or at least check the local weather report and see if you are anywhere near.
Its no good just saying "i don't tamper with it so its right" because if the calibration is wrong then the figures are wrong. Don't rely on setup from dynojet.
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Q: I see a whole lot more (reproducible) detail on my Innovate AF logs than I see on the Dynojet AF trace. Have you ever tweaked a Powercommander map on your DJ using the logged AF?????
I have built powercommander maps from logged wideband data and emailed them back to customers at race meetings. Do the same regularly for my motec customers.
The lambda is another item that needs checking and replacing. Don't rely on that as being accurate because they can be wrong.
As another side issue, i hear a whole lot of BS about ramair on the dyno. My fan blows about 70mph at the front of the bike. Comparing this to logged data off the motec system on my superbikes and supersport bikes, the motec logged data is never more than 0.3 off on AF compared to the dyno. So don't worry about throwing in a whole heap more fuel. BUT, i've never logged at 200mph (max about 170mph) so all your bonneville guys please don't come looking for me if it blows.
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Ward just told me the best way to calibrate your dyno BP. You need to know your exact altitude- then call the local airport and get the BP from them- then subtract your altitude. BP is given at sea level, that's why your altitude plays a factor. We're right in line with our local airport- if the planes didn't pull up on takeoff, they'd plow into our building! So, I used the airports altititude of 346ft. BP they gave when I called was 30.24. Subtract my altitude- .346= 29.89 BP. My dyno was at 30.2 so it was a little on the low-hp side, once corrected it will add roughly 3-4hp to whatever I dyno. I'm not going to correct it for a while though because I'm testing things and that would through off my tests baselines.
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Just got a call from Dynojet.... Seems like my video is causing a lot of trouble. They're overwhelmed with phone calls wanting to know how to do what I did on the video. They're afraid that more people want to jack up their dyno just to get higher numbers. That was never my intention making this video. I see their point- we don't need 100 more shops doing this than already are so I'll be removing the video later today.
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SAE will still be a long way out if the air pressure is wrong. XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX - section removed - XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX. You will see about 20bhp between them on a busa.
Chuck isn't saying everyone with high bhp is doing this, he's just informing those that don't understand to pay attention to this.
I've removed my bit on how to do it as well.
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Well it is about time that DynoJt cared enough about it to make a phone call. But they need to be more worried about the inconstancies with readings from dyno to dyno than someone jacking with it.
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The majority of the inconsistancies are from people jacking with them.
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Fantastic thread, fan-tastic...!!!
:thumb: :thumb: :thumb: :thumb: :thumb:
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Looks like it is getting more attention than imagined.
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I'm sure Dynojet is really concerned. But still, it's up to us, to see our bikes tuned and mapped, *with* the a/f ratio shown, and maybe the BP info on the dyno chart itself.
Local airport BP - altitude = corrected sea level BP. Gotta remember that one.
Chuck, you are the freagin' man. One of the better threads I've read in a long time.
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Thanks guys- the video had over 3000 views. If half those people called Dynojet....... I can see why they're a little steamed!
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Half were probably from shop owners who have now got to redo their website dynocharts from 230bhp down to 215bhp :D
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It's odd how much noise DJ is making now because when a Canadian mag published a feature on cross variation of DJ results the Company was unavailable for comment...........or something to that effect.
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They probably didn't want to make a public comment in a magazine- but then again, that magazine wasn't clogging up their phone lines! Just to be clear- I have no problem with DJ or taking the vid down, I understand completely where they're coming from. I love my DynoJet250i- use it practically everyday!
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Local airport BP - altitude = corrected sea level BP. Gotta remember that one.
I thought it was:
local airport BP (which is reported corrected to SL) - altitude/1000 = local airport BP (uncorrected)
BUT I always get this stuff mixed up.
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You get the same # either way.
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see chuck...........its all your fault!!!!!! :lol:
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Great thread. lots of info. Thanks guys
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I have said it once and I will say it again. The dyno is a tuning tool, the numbers don't mean a thing it is used to maximize the engine tune. My interest is to get fuel air mixture in safe ranges. There are to many variables to take into account. My Busa made less HP than some others but I ran 1/10 to 2/10's faster at the track. Use dyno to tune and track to see results.
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see chuck...........its all your fault!!!!!! :lol:
LOL- not the first time I've heard that!
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A question on topic of dyno's .
What would happen if a much heavier drum were to be used " built drum" and ran on a Dynojet 150 with later software ?
If the weather station was correct , would this tend to make for more hp/tq shown than a DJ150 with stock drum ?
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My bike has been on 4 different dyno's,
Schnitz,Brock's,A portable dyno in Kokomo Indiana, and on Spaz's Dyno in Indy when he was here and in Iowa when I was there and in rockingham when we were there. All runs were within 1.5 to 2 horsepower.
2 dyno's in Indiana. 1 in Ohio. 1 in Iowa and 1 in Rockingham NC.
Guess all those dyno's are pretty close to eack other.
B.
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I built a 1397 for a guy a few years back.
Ported head, bored throttle bodies, Web cams, APE springs & pins, modified JE pistons, Carillo rods, lightened crank, small airbox mod w/ BMC filter, Ti Force pipe, PC2.
It made like 218 hp with some mapping, could have used more time on dyno but the owner cheaped out.
The owner was all bent out of shape because he felt he spent a lot of money and got ripped off because he heard about all the 230 hp 1397's.
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Good thread, Moral of the story: A Happy Dyno keeps Everyone Happy! :? :) :) :D :D :D
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If it makes anyone feel any better, engine dynos also vary a few %. There no different. As far as pumping up a dyno number to wow the customer? Well our drag and circle track customers (95% of our business) judge their engine by the success they have at the race AND how many races they get before there is a problem with the engine and or power starts to fall off.
I have had my 1375 zx12r on 4 Dynojet dynos and they all read within 5 hp and 3 of them were DJ 150's.
I've had my cars on 2 different chassis dynos and they varied by several hp as well.
We run engines on our $80,000 DTS engine dyno that have come right off of a "friends" Superflow 901 engine dyno and they have varied by several HP as well.
Like several people have said, it’s a tool. The number it gives you is only one piece of the pie. The direction that number moves while tuning is more important. BMEP, BSFC are more important than the measured torque output.
BMEP and BSFC they tell you the efficiency of the engine and if you’re engine will finish the race with the allotted fuel.