SuzukiHayabusa.org

TECHNICAL => GEN II BUSA => Topic started by: 1Quikshifter on March 27, 2009, 09:12:01 AM

Title: TRE~PRO question !
Post by: 1Quikshifter on March 27, 2009, 09:12:01 AM
TRE~PRO
Has anyone know anything bout these, claimed "semi plug & play" minor wiring required ??
Full gear position display functionality.
Has anyone have any info >> good / bad / difficult to install for the average guy ????
Thanx in advance
Title: Re: TRE~PRO question !
Post by: busaville on March 31, 2009, 03:52:02 AM
TRE~PRO ?  I have the X-Tre and I thing it works pretty good. Bike is more responsive. Easy to install, fully functional gear indicator.
Title: Re: TRE~PRO question !
Post by: speetdemon on March 31, 2009, 07:49:14 AM
TRE~PRO ?  I have the X-Tre and I thing it works pretty good. Bike is more responsive. Easy to install, fully functional gear indicator.

Does it still indicate 6th gear when u are running on 6th? Any difference in fuel consumption? Does it work well at different drive modes? Is the low end power improvement satisfying? Any downside?  I am seriously considering having one.
Title: Re: TRE~PRO question !
Post by: smithabusa on March 31, 2009, 12:08:41 PM
Any TRE is going to mess up your gear based fueling.

5th gear timing all the time is good, 5th gear fueling all the time is NOT.
Title: Re: TRE~PRO question !
Post by: busaville on March 31, 2009, 02:26:53 PM
TRE~PRO ?  I have the X-Tre and I thing it works pretty good. Bike is more responsive. Easy to install, fully functional gear indicator.

Does it still indicate 6th gear when u are running on 6th? Any difference in fuel consumption? Does it work well at different drive modes? Is the low end power improvement satisfying? Any downside?  I am seriously considering having one.
Yes, it shows every gear you are in. Fuel consumption increased very little, you are able to change between 4th, 5th or 6th gear" maps." It does pull harder and I haven't seen any downsides to it yet. It was worth the money for me until they can tap into the ecu for the 08.
Title: Re: TRE~PRO question !
Post by: speetdemon on March 31, 2009, 07:48:38 PM
Any TRE is going to mess up your gear based fueling.

5th gear timing all the time is good, 5th gear fueling all the time is NOT.

Can u briefly clarify how the TRE systems work?  :shock: My understanding is that it works like PCIII but only in certain gears. Thanx.
Title: Re: TRE~PRO question !
Post by: smithabusa on March 31, 2009, 07:55:54 PM
Any TRE is going to mess up your gear based fueling.

5th gear timing all the time is good, 5th gear fueling all the time is NOT.

Can u briefly clarify how the TRE systems work?  :shock: My understanding is that it works like PCIII but only in certain gears. Thanx.

its a 6.8k resistor, tells your ecu you are in 5th gear all the time

Title: Re: TRE~PRO question !
Post by: 1Quikshifter on March 31, 2009, 08:09:56 PM

 http://cgi.ebay.com.au/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=270351555705

This one sounds good,if it does what it claims to do !!
Title: Re: TRE~PRO question !
Post by: 1Quikshifter on March 31, 2009, 08:12:49 PM

 Has software build in !!!
Title: Re: TRE~PRO question !
Post by: smithabusa on March 31, 2009, 08:19:23 PM
the extra components are there so that your factory gear indicator still works correctly, it still forces your ecu into the 5th gear mapping at all times, except neutral, the wrong way to go for performance in my opinion.
Title: Re: TRE~PRO question !
Post by: 1Quikshifter on March 31, 2009, 08:32:29 PM

Thanx smiffy for your professional opinion, its all double dutch to me !! 
Title: Re: TRE~PRO question !
Post by: speetdemon on March 31, 2009, 11:57:53 PM

 http://cgi.ebay.com.au/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=270351555705

This one sounds good,if it does what it claims to do !!

Thanks ...its all clear now. I would just grab one.
Title: Re: TRE~PRO question !
Post by: Steve@OrientExpress on April 01, 2009, 09:08:10 AM
A TRE is an ignition "timing retard eliminator" - the stock ignition maps on most Suzuki's include built in ignition retard to help control wheelies, wheelspin and power in 1-4th gears, and top speed in 6th gear. 5th gear is the only "open" gear. The TRE is a resistor that fools the ECU into thinking it is in 5th gear all the time. That is the basic concept. From there, folks have made some other modifications to expand on the abilities of the modules.... Smart TRE's, X-TRE, etc...

It IS NOT a Power Commander in any way shape or form. A TRE does not know if a Power Commander is present, and a Power Commander does not know if a TRE is present. A TRE has zero control over fuel and fuel injection.
Title: Re: TRE~PRO question !
Post by: smithabusa on April 01, 2009, 09:14:15 AM

It IS NOT a Power Commander in any way shape or form. A TRE does not know if a Power Commander is present, and a Power Commander does not know if a TRE is present. A TRE has zero control over fuel and fuel injection.

except that the TRE puts the bike into the 5th gear fueling maps all the time, so you definitely can't change fueling with it in software or anything like a Power Commander, but it does mess up your bikes ability to provide gear based ram air compensation by forcing 5th gear ram air compensation at all times.
Title: Re: TRE~PRO question !
Post by: Steve@OrientExpress on April 02, 2009, 12:13:30 PM
For a sophisticated set up where you can map fuel for the individual gears, you are correct. For most folks on the street, running a pipe and power commander - and who describes himself as the average guy - you are taking things way out of context IMO. A PCIIIUSB only knows one map at a time for all four cylinders, and only knows throttle position and RPM. It does not care what gear the bike is in, or what gear it thinks it is in, or what the ignition is doing. The new PCV will change things for some folks who decide they need separate maps for each gear - but again, its an option that most folks will never explore.

Now, if we are discussing a far more sophisticated set up, you are correct to a certain degree. My argument would be why would you bother to run a TRE at that point anyhow... All that it accomplishes can be done in other ways or is not needed.




Title: Re: TRE~PRO question !
Post by: smithabusa on April 02, 2009, 12:45:01 PM
The power commander only knows one map regardless of wjat the ecu does

So if you add fuel at 3000 rpm at 5 percent throttle in the power commander, the ecu still has the ability to make its changes based on gear position, atnmospheric, temp, conditions etc

If you TRE it, the ecu can no longer do its gear based changes
Title: Re: TRE~PRO question !
Post by: speetdemon on April 03, 2009, 04:58:44 AM
The power commander only knows one map regardless of wjat the ecu does

So if you add fuel at 3000 rpm at 5 percent throttle in the power commander, the ecu still has the ability to make its changes based on gear position, atnmospheric, temp, conditions etc

If you TRE it, the ecu can no longer do its gear based changes

So - perhaps its good to swithc it off every now and then. Anyone knows if there is a switch in the market? :shock:
Title: Re: TRE~PRO question !
Post by: 1Quikshifter on April 03, 2009, 07:35:21 AM

 So, in plain english what is good to do ?
Does that mean if I run the PC, I dont need the TRE ??
                              or
If I run the PC & TRE they will compliment each other  ?? one working with A/F the other working wif ignition.
Can the PC erradicate the 6th gear restrictor ?

What is the best set up .... ?
Title: Re: TRE~PRO question !
Post by: Got-Busa? on April 03, 2009, 11:29:29 AM
PC + GPS mod = you get BOTH!

PC + TRE = 5th gear timing which sucks!

PC only = won't remove the limiter in 6th!

Otherwise, you can do an ECU hack...
Title: Re: TRE~PRO question !
Post by: 1Quikshifter on April 03, 2009, 11:06:23 PM

GPS mod ?? went back on some old posts and couldn't find much >> isn't that just used to accurately measure speed ??
Title: Re: TRE~PRO question !
Post by: Got-Busa? on April 03, 2009, 11:09:07 PM
Gear Position Sensor not Global Positioning System... ;)

GPS MOD--> http://www.boostbysmith.com/pb/wp_85c6ad96/wp_85c6ad96.html?0.7884662049433209
Title: Re: TRE~PRO question !
Post by: 1Quikshifter on April 03, 2009, 11:28:26 PM
 De~Restrictor ? ~  "This allows stock ignition timing in the lower gears" !!

Thats no good, coz stock is standard and standard is retarding the ignition timing in 1~2~3~4.

Am I off base here ??
Title: Re: TRE~PRO question !
Post by: smithabusa on April 04, 2009, 09:54:14 AM
he was referring to gear position sensor mod for 1n23455 output

this does the same thing and is plug and play

www.boostbysmith.com/highgain.html

Greg
Title: Re: TRE~PRO question !
Post by: 1Quikshifter on April 04, 2009, 10:52:03 AM
Thanks Greg .... that was the wrong link !
High gain OK ! that talks bout de-restricting redline in 6th, but 1-2-3-4 is de-restricted aswell, as the TRE does ?
Do I want reline in 6th ... I do I do ! :hys:
I do apoligise I know this topic has been done to death but I'm not real sparky on the electronics side of things.
How much would the postage be on that to Australia ?

Joe 
Title: Re: TRE~PRO question !
Post by: smithabusa on April 04, 2009, 10:58:25 AM
Mine leaves all stock except it lifts the governor off 6th gear.

TRE will also let you go faster than 186 in 6th but it forces your bikes fuel tables to 5th gear all the time which I don't like

Title: Re: TRE~PRO question !
Post by: smithabusa on April 04, 2009, 10:59:02 AM
Usps priority has a new small flat rate box that is 13 bucks to aussie I think.
Title: Re: TRE~PRO question !
Post by: 1Quikshifter on April 04, 2009, 11:01:17 AM

OK ! I dig
Title: Re: TRE~PRO question !
Post by: 1Quikshifter on April 04, 2009, 11:13:38 AM

Did the Gen 1 have an timing retarder in 1-2-3-4 ?

Just trying to work out why my old 04 model used to tear my shoulders out of their sockets at 8,000 rpm, and the 09' is not thrusting like it should.   
Title: Re: TRE~PRO question !
Post by: smithabusa on April 04, 2009, 11:29:08 AM
Gen 1's yes they have reduced timing, at low RPM, low throttle input (wide open throttle at high rpm stuff its all the same).

So if you want more timing at low RPM low throttle you would need to either do TRE (downside is it messes up gear based fueling) or reflash the ECU for just 5th gear timing across all gears, 02-07s this is no problem to reflash and remove 6th gear governor as well, 08-09 busas are being worked on and very soon you will be able to do this with reflashing.

my highgain mod just lifts the 6th gear governor.

A TRE is not going to make your bike faster in the 1/4, some say it feels better part throttle response due to increased timing at low rpm etc, but by forcing 5th gear ram air compensation fuel tables to the first couple of gears will just make the bike richer.
Title: Re: TRE~PRO question !
Post by: 1Quikshifter on April 04, 2009, 12:18:54 PM

 Very informative,  I'm all straight now !

 Thanx again Greg !  :D 
Title: Re: TRE~PRO question !
Post by: PetriK on April 11, 2009, 05:02:02 AM
Quote
A TRE is an ignition "timing retard eliminator" - the stock ignition maps on most Suzuki's include built in ignition retard to help control wheelies, wheelspin and power in 1-4th gears, and top speed in 6th gear. 5th gear is the only "open" gear. The TRE is a resistor that fools the ECU into thinking it is in 5th gear all the time. That is the basic concept. From there, folks have made some other modifications to expand on the abilities of the modules.... Smart TRE's, X-TRE, etc...

I would say this is a street legend that is being repeated. The fact is that the timing is affected only with <10% throttle openings so must be a heck of a bike to make wheelies with only a cruising throttle opening.

From my opinion the timing is altered for cruising area to control the emissions, make exhaust gasses burn better at the area where also pair is on and excess fuel is put throught the engine. The alledged performance gains may relate to keeping the fuelling same for all gears in the dyno - in real life with ram air compensation I would be rather suspicious about any real gains, rather the opposite - particularly as it has been documented that some riders have experienced worse ET:s on track after installing a TRE.

Another fact is that by fooling the ECU to consider the bike being on 5th gear you also let the engine rev higher when 6th gear is on. But as the peak power with stock and moderately tuned engines is often coming at 9000rpm it would be more beneficial to have a properly geared than TREd bike for LSR top speed runs. (For a quartermile something is horribly wrong if you hit 6th gear limiter before the trap.)

Sorry for my biased and a bit black and white opinion on this (based on facts and personal experience), I would say that better acronym would be: The Retarded Enginesystem when talking about a TRE.

The only TRE I would ever consider is something that allows my engine to run N,1,2,3,4,5,5 - but because of having unrestricted many gen1 ECUs and having an ability to unrestrict gen2 ECU just dont need one anyway and therefore dare to say my opinion. I hope being this straight forward does not offend anyone.
Title: Re: TRE~PRO question !
Post by: 1Quikshifter on April 11, 2009, 11:08:00 AM

All taken on board, thanx for your insight, reviewing everything I think I'm gunna wait to you blokes fine tune the manipulation (re flashing) of the standard 09' ECU !Thanx again Petrik :D
Title: Re: TRE~PRO question !
Post by: PetriK on April 12, 2009, 04:23:20 AM
I think we are already around there where tre is not anymore needed even for gen2 busas ?

http://www.suzukihayabusa.org/forum/index.php?topic=138989.0

Title: Re: TRE~PRO question !
Post by: FloydV on April 18, 2009, 11:51:26 AM
Quote
A TRE is an ignition "timing retard eliminator" - the stock ignition maps on most Suzuki's include built in ignition retard to help control wheelies, wheelspin and power in 1-4th gears, and top speed in 6th gear. 5th gear is the only "open" gear. The TRE is a resistor that fools the ECU into thinking it is in 5th gear all the time. That is the basic concept. From there, folks have made some other modifications to expand on the abilities of the modules.... Smart TRE's, X-TRE, etc...

I would say this is a street legend that is being repeated. The fact is that the timing is affected only with <10% throttle openings so must be a heck of a bike to make wheelies with only a cruising throttle opening.

From my opinion the timing is altered for cruising area to control the emissions, make exhaust gasses burn better at the area where also pair is on and excess fuel is put throught the engine. The alledged performance gains may relate to keeping the fuelling same for all gears in the dyno - in real life with ram air compensation I would be rather suspicious about any real gains, rather the opposite - particularly as it has been documented that some riders have experienced worse ET:s on track after installing a TRE.

Another fact is that by fooling the ECU to consider the bike being on 5th gear you also let the engine rev higher when 6th gear is on. But as the peak power with stock and moderately tuned engines is often coming at 9000rpm it would be more beneficial to have a properly geared than TREd bike for LSR top speed runs. (For a quartermile something is horribly wrong if you hit 6th gear limiter before the trap.)

Sorry for my biased and a bit black and white opinion on this (based on facts and personal experience), I would say that better acronym would be: The Retarded Enginesystem when talking about a TRE.

The only TRE I would ever consider is something that allows my engine to run N,1,2,3,4,5,5 - but because of having unrestricted many gen1 ECUs and having an ability to unrestrict gen2 ECU just dont need one anyway and therefore dare to say my opinion. I hope being this straight forward does not offend anyone.


I didn't realize there was a TRE that would do 1, N, 2, 3, 4, 5, as stock and make 6th look like 5.  Any brands?
What I would like to know, is it possible to hack the ECU so that a tuner can change the fuel mixture to better match whatever the bike needs. For instance, I'm at 5,000 feet, and my bike is too rich.
Title: Re: TRE~PRO question !
Post by: smithabusa on April 18, 2009, 12:12:53 PM
My derestrictor does the 1n23455 mod, its not a tre, it disables 6th gear so you don't hit the 186 mph governor www.boostbysmith.com/highgain.html

Title: Re: TRE~PRO question !
Post by: FloydV on April 18, 2009, 12:19:04 PM
My derestrictor does the 1n23455 mod, its not a tre, it disables 6th gear so you don't hit the 186 mph governor www.boostbysmith.com/highgain.html



Wanted to buy it but no credit card input.  Will have to Paypal infor from the wife.
Title: Re: TRE~PRO question !
Post by: smithabusa on April 18, 2009, 12:22:53 PM
Yes there is over on the left side of screen it says to pay with credit card click here :)
Title: Re: TRE~PRO question !
Post by: FloydV on April 18, 2009, 02:14:33 PM
Yes there is over on the left side of screen it says to pay with credit card click here :)

Will look again. Getting old I guess.
Title: Re: TRE~PRO question !
Post by: gjp1300 on April 20, 2009, 08:57:29 AM
My derestrictor does the 1n23455 mod, its not a tre, it disables 6th gear so you don't hit the 186 mph governor www.boostbysmith.com/highgain.

       I purchased one and it works like a charm,just clocked 190mph on my GPS the other day so I know it works,I have to run her up to redline in 6th to see what top speed is,def goin for the ECU flash though,looks like I'll be selling it if anybody is interested.