SuzukiHayabusa.org
GENERAL => MAXIMUM OVERDRIVE => Topic started by: duncan on May 24, 2010, 09:38:26 PM
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272 in a standing mile is absolutely nuts...and unbelievable. I watched a few years ago Lee go 260 and some change and thought 275 would not be touched for another 10 years or so. Well at at a longer{nicer surface}place like Loring, or perhaps 3+ miles somewhere in the future, is it crazy to even think 300mph is possible?
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Seems feasible to me,not sure what tires,etc. i'd be trusting though. :lol: :thumb:
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Hard to fathom...
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If you can dream it, you can do it. It will take Horsepower far beyond what is now available and more complete aerodynamics. And then there is the tire issue. A little at a time but it will happen. It would be nice if Suzuki helped out with the 2015 Busa being 1800cc with billet cases. LSL
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I think it is possible. I see bill going 285ish in Maine this year.
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Would have to look like a Tylenol capsule.
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Would have to look like a Tylenol capsule.
I'm painting the bike half RED and half WHITE next week :hys:
Bill
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Would have to look like a Tylenol capsule.
I'm painting the bike half RED and half WHITE next week :hys:
Bill
Now that's some funny shid right there :hys:
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Would have to look like a Tylenol capsule.
I'm painting the bike half RED and half WHITE next week :hys:
Bill
Ha...nice.
Throw the aerodynamics out the window (he he). Just tell Bill he CAN'T do it and watch him go 304....
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Would have to look like a Tylenol capsule.
I'm painting the bike half RED and half WHITE next week :hys:
Bill
:hys:
Too funny Bill!
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That's funny bill! :hys:
Team Pain Re-leaver :wink:
It's going to get harder running "softer race only tires" Big Hp bikes don't like the soft tires I've chewed a few up already. What center section? :o
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very true Shane
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That's funny bill! :hys:
Team Pain Re-leaver :wink:
I have a cure for HAMMERoids also :hys:
Bill
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That's funny bill! :hys:
Team Pain Re-leaver :wink:
I have a cure for HAMMERoids also :hys:
Bill
Here we go..... :cry: Oh Bill stop don't make me cry you Meany, Let a guy go "pretty" fast for two events and now hes talking smack.... :hys: Man, I'm cracking myself up as I type this is the life fellas... :thumb:
I'm thankful all the grown ups on here have such a playful relationship with each other, otherwise I would do something else with my time and money....
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All in good fun :thumb:
I have been dieing to use that line ever since I watched IronMan 2 :hys:
As for the tire thing that is going on with SCTA, can't run a bike tire over 265 there anyways, and it will only be attempted in the APS class which is not open wheeled, making it a non streetbike. LSR car tires are where to go with the 265++, which I am sure JA will have.
Bill
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I just don't like the idea of the VERY Small contact patch the current line up of Certified "car" tires offer minus the whole lack of a descent crown to speak of.... I know other people are using them.... but there not going fast with them either.... yet I guess..
Yes... Bill Iron Man 2 was SWEET! :thumb: Lots of one liners I would like to use, LIKE.... Girl walks in ring kicks dudes butt... "I want one!" ------ a yeah ME Too... Please :wink:
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Hammeroids :hys:
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Hey you guys are laughing but I would love to ride the "Hammer" on roids.... That would be a trip :thumb: lol
So for conversation purposes only Hammer on Roids.... lets say 800 hp at the wheel :wink: And for good measure bill could I use your Top Secret Fairies?
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That would be mean. I think Bill's bike looks more like a Sapository :)
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That would be mean. I think Bill's bike looks more like a Sapository :)
Now thats some good shit talk :D
Paint'n her brown now :hys:
Bill
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Doo doo brown
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Shit-azz FAST Brown :twisted: LSL
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Shit-azz FAST Brown :twisted: LSL
:hys: :hys: :hys:
Bill
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I know a painter, send me your fairies and I'll take care of it for you. We won't copy them :)
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I know a painter, send me your fairies and I'll take care of it for you. We won't copy them :)
Now thats NOT funny!
:hys:
Bill
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I know a painter, send me your fairies and I'll take care of it for you. We won't copy them :)
Now thats NOT funny!
:hys:
Bill
Good CALL Bill I wouldn't send them to Tom either..... Send'em to me, I'll take care of them Buddy :wink: I know a guy that can Paint a nice Candy POOPOO brown.... you'll love it......................... :hys:
Shane
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There's got to be some math wizzes here that can figure out the hp required to push a busa with x drag coefficent to 300? I'll bet it would be over 1000 hp. I just keep thinking about what would happen if the tires let go. Are those lsr car tires safe? Are there any lsr bike tires in developement? Has anybody streamlined their helmets and leathers yet?
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There's got to be some math wizzes here that can figure out the hp required to push a busa with x drag coefficent to 300? I'll bet it would be over 1000 hp. I just keep thinking about what would happen if the tires let go. Are those lsr car tires safe? Are there any lsr bike tires in developement? Has anybody streamlined their helmets and leathers yet?
No on the lsr bike tire development because of liability issues.
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just keep the skid marks for the track n not yer drawers
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just keep the skid marks for the track n not yer drawers
:lol: :thumb:
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Send them on up here Bill ,i got some pearl white left and you can pick them up on the way to loring. I have no use to copy jack. You guys can have it and moving air around Bills bike will prob run 300 next year at Loring. I will put a sticker on, Waynes Bar and Grill.
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The way I see it the extra half-mile will provide another ~7 seconds to accelerate. We'll know soon...
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I'll guess 290 for Bill if he goes to Maine... ;)
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Ace is making 600+ hp.... so I vote he should give it a shot.
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Ace is making 600+ hp.... so I vote he should give it a shot.
Well that's one SMALL drip in the old bucket... But atleast it's a start... :thumb:
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Ace is making 600+ hp.... so I vote he should give it a shot.
his bike while having a nice dyno number isn't anywhere near ready for LSR and probably couldn't put up against most of the regular 250hp dudes that frequent the venues.
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Ace is making 600+ hp.... so I vote he should give it a shot.
his bike while having a nice dyno number isn't anywhere near ready for LSR and probably couldn't put up against most of the regular 250hp dudes that frequent the venues.
Sounds like a challenge to me. Ace?
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Ace is making 600+ hp.... so I vote he should give it a shot.
his bike while having a nice dyno number isn't anywhere near ready for LSR and probably couldn't put up against most of the regular 250hp dudes that frequent the venues.
That is a true statement. A little tricky the first few times.
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I’m resurrecting this old thread in honor of Bill Warner. It was started about a year before he made his historic 311.9 MPH pass at Loring in 2011. Very interesting read and gives a great insight to his humor. For you that did not follow LSR at that time; The Hammer was a Scott Guthrie bike that Bill competed against during that time period.
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With a 296 we all know Bill would've done it that's for sure with a few mph to spare. Looking back this thread is funny with me saying it would have to look like a tylanol capsul ... NOT!! How wrong was I !! With Bills crashing he crashed for all of us, so all of us can rethink our racing program and prevent it from happening to anyone else.God bless him and his familly!!
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With a 296 we all know Bill would've done it that's for sure with a few mph to spare. Looking back this thread is funny with me saying it would have to look like a tylanol capsul ... NOT!! How wrong was I !! With Bills crashing he crashed for all of us, so all of us can rethink our racing program and prevent it from happening to anyone else.God bless him and his familly!!
I was able to meet the guys this spring. I should not have felt emotionally connected but found my self thinking about it alot. Even tearing up. Seeing alot of other LS racer loose their buddy and all of us loose a inovator. I was back to when my friend died and what could have been done differently. He was our generations Burt M.
I definetly am going to be looking for what happened and when people I know do big passes check that bike out good and the wind at the opposite end of the track.
I started questioning should I be persuing 250. Should I want to??? The anwser is not that we should quite what we do but like you said increase our spider sences and grow tighter as a LSR family and hopefully hold each other back when it is needed and let each other go when it is the right time.
I wanted to see that bike run 300 so bad.
I trully dont think anyone will come close to Bills speed for quite some time even ever. RIP
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Ace is making 600+ hp.... so I vote he should give it a shot.
his bike while having a nice dyno number isn't anywhere near ready for LSR and probably couldn't put up against most of the regular 250hp dudes that frequent the venues.
Sounds like a challenge to me. Ace?
well I figured I would get to responding a whole 3 years later. I don't care about LSR and I don't take it as a challenge. My bike isn't setup for LSR but the motor and tyranny would handle it and its led enough power. I'm sure if someone wanted to LSR it then they would need to dial in the tuning with a data logger as well as get hooked up with the LSR crowd for all their tricks. I would think its capable of 250mph with a little setup and the right rider. The Bill Warmer incident really is unfortunate. I would have like to see him hit his number and hang it up.
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He hit his # in my book. Who cares if it was a mile or 3 miles. He was the first to 300. If someone does it in the mile which they won't. Who cares, because Bill did it already. If you told your mom that your friend Bill went 300 mph, she's not gonna say is that in a mile or 1.5. Or was it at Bonneville with up to 5 miles. She's gonna say wow really!!
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He hit his # in my book. Who cares if it was a mile or 3 miles. He was the first to 300. If someone does it in the mile which they won't. Who cares, because Bill did it already. If you told your mom that your friend Bill went 300 mph, she's not gonna say is that in a mile or 1.5. Or was it at Bonneville with up to 5 miles. She's gonna say wow really!!
Actually, Mom's going to say."What the heck is wrong with that guy, and don't tell me YOU are going to try it!" :thumb:
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I'm painting the bike half RED and half WHITE next week :hys:
Bill
Ha...nice.
Throw the aerodynamics out the window (he he). Just tell Bill he CAN'T do it and watch him go 304....
Just like he couldn't break 200 on the ole' V-Max...
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Sorry John, your forecast were off by 7.9 MPH... :) :) :)
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He hit his # in my book. Who cares if it was a mile or 3 miles. He was the first to 300. If someone does it in the mile which they won't. Who cares, because Bill did it already. If you told your mom that your friend Bill went 300 mph, she's not gonna say is that in a mile or 1.5. Or was it at Bonneville with up to 5 miles. She's gonna say wow really!!
Yeah 311 mph is just that and insane. I'm not saying the guy didn't go light speed but I thought he was kinda hinting at hitting a last targeted benchmark and then that was going to be it. Bill actually called me when I was building my bike a few years back to discuss the capabilities of the RCC kits at the time. Within 5 minutes of the conversation you could tell he was the kinda guy that thought out of the box and had much larger plans than the majority of people building a big hp bike with no plans how to use it like myself. What a nice guy and like I mentioned earlier just a sad and unfortunate deal.
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I'm painting the bike half RED and half WHITE next week :hys:
Bill
Ha...nice.
Throw the aerodynamics out the window (he he). Just tell Bill he CAN'T do it and watch him go 304....
Just like he couldn't break 200 on the ole' V-Max...
EXACTLY!!! 8)
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Bill was only retiring from pavement. What he could have done on the white stuff we will never know. A turbo, methanol, tube frame chassis is resting at the farm, just needs a body. DON'T ever bet he couldn't get the "number" out there. LSL
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I don't think anyone in their right mind would bet against that Larry.
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300MPH is not only possible, but achievable. Bill proved that with his 296 run. Getting the right traction and power to the pavement while keeping the front end down will be the key. Aerodynamics and chassis design are going to be the critical factors.
I think we will have that figured out and will give it our best to make that number come true.
(https://fbcdn-sphotos-e-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash3/p480x480/536905_673755222652841_264413198_n.jpg)
Front end is just about done. 3-D scanning will be next for virtual wind tunnel analysis then its off to the actual tunnel.
You can read about the build here:
http://www.1st-to-the-finish-line.com/news/news-flying-tiger.html
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And nobody in their right mind would bet against Larry, either!
I remember Scott Guthrie telling me years ago that there was nothing that could make you sit up and take notice more than seeing a "Larry Forstall Racing" sticker on the bike sitting next to you. We felt the same way about seeing Scott's stickers too!
Walt
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Walt, hope to see you there at Wilmington soon.
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I remember the boards at the time of his big record run. No one except Bill thought he'd bust 300 much less go ( what I say ) 312. It's an awesome feat that will be remembered. I don't think Bill will be forgotten either.
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All I will say is good luck, be careful, and godbless you. I don't know who's gonna do the riding but they better have some massive balls. That's going to be some big shoes to fill Guy. I don't think 300 in a mile is going to be any milestone that means anything to anyone except being a personal goal to that person. 300 is 300 wether its 1,1.5 or 5. To the everyday enthusiasts its just a # that has already been achieved. They don't care about the distance. So just make sure its really something you wanna do and be willing to risk you life for just bragging rights. This is not your everyday 240 mph amusement park ride that's a blast, its down right scary stuff. Good luck to you !!
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Its not about bragging rights anymore because it's been done. Its about the journey, but I will say that I have made the decision that if I reach it, I'm done. No number beyond that means anything to me, this is a personal thing now. I may not make it, but not for lack of trying.
Oh, I'm riding it of course.
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Its not about bragging rights anymore because it's been done. Its about the journey, but I will say that I have made the decision that if I reach it, I'm done. No number beyond that means anything to me, this is a personal thing now. I may not make it, but not for lack of trying.
Oh, I'm riding it of course.
. I hear ya Guy, its just some serious speed that if you never really been that fast you have no idea how hard its going to be. Also you may or shall I say will have a comfort zone that may be well below 300, mine for instance happens to be around 250 naked and faired. Those type of bikes that you go for rides on are totally different to ride. I feel way more at home on regular style bikes and had bad experiences with the handeling of the other style. I know your taking your time with the build as you should. Taking your time reaching those speeds just as important.
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Slow but sure wins the race. You are so right Steve. Baby steps.
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Guy, what is your fastest speed achieved?
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228 felt like a really slow pass. I haven't been on the track in awhile now. Chassis has never been tried. New program, I've never done turbo, so I have a lot to learn about going fast. Baby steps. My runs will be well regulated by many.
New gear, new leathers, new body armor, new technology and a new power plant. This is a journey.
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A journey to 300 without a intercooler instead using nitrous to cool??? I want to see it but I think with your frame design which would allow for a big intercooler Air/water or air/air behind the front wheel will be your first learning step. IMO
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There is a method to the madness. It's all in the tuning.
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There is a method to the madness. It's all in the tuning.
There is also something called heat, time and metallurgy.
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Yes and as a great Dragracer Elmer Trett once told me, you go faster burning fuel than aluminum.
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Bill was only retiring from pavement. What he could have done on the white stuff we will never know. A turbo, methanol, tube frame chassis is resting at the farm, just needs a body. DON'T ever bet he couldn't get the "number" out there. LSL
I was counting down the days for bill to get off the pavement and just do the salt to set the mark.
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Further thread resurrection (again) due to quality of posts, momentous accomplishments and legendary nuts involved, hairy or otherwise. Proud to be able to say Bill was a friend to many of us here, and the SuzukiHayabusa.org decal on his bike is still the fastest open wheel sit on motorcycle forum decal the world has ever seen. Enjoy.
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To add to the perspective of this thread Ralph Hudson is in a SLC hospital with serious injuries and I hope recovering without complications. Ralph qualified at almost 270 and was on his return run when it appears that a gust of wind caused a tank slapper and there was no saving it. Ralph runs gasoline and thus has less power than the methanol bikes. His fairing is the best ever also proven by the unreal speeds of his 600. Ralph is 69 years old, certainly a record for age/speed. As I have said before "This aint golf" it has consequences. Get well soon Ralph :tu: LSL
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Ralph is one of those people you just have to admire; I hope he recovers well (and soon) and can continue to pursue his dreams.
I think 300 in the standing start mile is achievable but all the stars will have to align, it certainly isn't easy but records always seem to fall, sooner or later.
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We should remember that the famous JOE AMO went 272mph AVERAGE for the 2nd of three timed miles at Bonneville 10-15 years ago. Based on his entry speed, experts have estimated his TOP speed at about 284mph with only 1000cc.
6.Joe Amo (Scott Guthrie) 272.610mph Bonneville 2009
Bonneville fastest sit-on bike. 1000cc
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We should remember that the famous JOE AMO went 272mph AVERAGE for the 2nd of three timed miles at Bonneville 10-15 years ago. Based on his entry speed, experts have estimated his TOP speed at about 284mph with only 1000cc.
6.Joe Amo (Scott Guthrie) 272.610mph Bonneville 2009
Bonneville fastest sit-on bike. 1000cc
x2 :bike: 8)
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It was very enjoyable to read the first pages worth of comments on this thread haven't seen it since it was originally written... 🥲
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At this time with the benefit of hindsight I guess the question is, are our modern sportsbikes (oem chassis) equipted with "full" bodywork, considered "safe" enough to attain speeds in excess of 250mph, indeed approaching 300mph ?
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I would think that with suitable modification to
chassis and body, 325mph speeds would be reasonable ...............
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Aero controls ultimate speed and at Bolivia speeds exceeding 300 are very possible without big, big power. All the details better be right though!
Sent from my SM-T380 using Tapatalk
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I would think that with suitable modification to
chassis and body, 325mph speeds would be reasonable ...............
Remove the word "suitable", replace with "extensive" :|
Unfortunatly, both men who have achieved 300+mph are no longer with us due in part to handleing issues on modern sportsbike geometry with "bolt on" modifications,,
Modern Sportsbikes are constructed to have fun in the Twisties,, Top Fuel bikes have evolved (from sportsbikes) to go extremily fast in a straight line,,
I suggest an extensive rethink on machine stability at speeds over 250mph is a "Priorty",, rake, wheelbase, lower c of g, and that's even before we start thinking about slippery bodywork :)
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Agree ... With "suitable" modifications on the Hayabusa (don't know about anything else), 250 - 270 mph is marginally safe. The aero fairings that allow current "stock" framed bikes to eclipse 270 have major issues with cross winds at any speed.
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I sometimes think that the fairings are *too* good i.e. they reduce drag by a fair amount but at the price of acting like big wings. The slightest crosswind component and you get lift: sideways.
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So many aspects to it…
How pronounced is the “side lift” from a crosswind component?
What are the effects of increased cross sectional area - both fairing and tail sections?
Sustained acceleration rate and reduced contact patch on the front wheel - and the resulting change in steering? How dynamic is the change in handling if you ease up on the throttle and increase weight on the front in reaction to some handling issue? What if you chop the throttle quickly if something bad is happening “right now”?!
If you do start generating a lot of “side lift” and something causes that crosswind component to exceed the “critical angle of lift” and it “stalls” - what happens to the handling of the bike?! What happens if this flow manages to stay attached (or re-attaches) to the tail section while the “side lift” is lost on the fairing with the “side stall”?
How does all this change if you try adding a “flat bottom” to the fairing?
I bet that is just the tip of the iceberg …
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Agree ... With "suitable" modifications on the Hayabusa (don't know about anything else), 250 - 270 mph is marginally safe. The aero fairings that allow current "stock" framed bikes to eclipse 270 have major issues with cross winds at any speed.
Yes, Ransom, I think we are pretty close on understanding all this.
250mph - 275mph seems about the safe upper limit with the stock
Hayabusa package - and the use of a raked frame and extended
swingarm from the 260-75 range seems very helpful.
I suspect that if our bikes were running in perfectly
still and motionless air, the safe limit would go higher -
especially with SUITABLE LSR bodywork.
That could take us to the 296-310mph area.
Conditions "downtrack" - especially at Bonneville - are
hard to predict, so things get very chancy in a real hurry.
Bike-specific inputs. like putting 700hp through a swingarm
built for 300hp, or side forces put into the steering at 325mph
on a bike built for 225mph also bring surprises.
I have a 45psi turbo alcohol bike that has shown about 700hp,
and I am afraid both to put a fast body on it, OR a fast rider on it...............
Right now, we are putting our "fast bike" efforts
into our side-car bike based on a Hayabusa.
320mph (and still pulling on the way out) with only 550hp ..............
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So many aspects to it…
How pronounced is the “side lift” from a crosswind component?
What are the effects of increased cross sectional area - both fairing and tail sections?
Sustained acceleration rate and reduced contact patch on the front wheel - and the resulting change in steering? How dynamic is the change in handling if you ease up on the throttle and increase weight on the front in reaction to some handling issue? What if you chop the throttle quickly if something bad is happening “right now”?!
If you do start generating a lot of “side lift” and something causes that crosswind component to exceed the “critical angle of lift” and it “stalls” - what happens to the handling of the bike?! What happens if this flow manages to stay attached (or re-attaches) to the tail section while the “side lift” is lost on the fairing with the “side stall”?
How does all this change if you try adding a “flat bottom” to the fairing?
I bet that is just the tip of the iceberg …
Tip of the iceberg indeed! All great questions!
A couple of years ago I ran some simulations to calculate side lift using a simulator I found on a NASA site. Somewhere I have the notes but IIRC it wasn't very hard to generate a couple hundreds pounds side force using typical fairing size and a small cross-wind component. I'll look for those numbers and/or try to regenerate them. We typically think of wings as being asymmetrical but symmetrical wings will generate lift if the angle-of-attack isn't zero degrees.
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So many aspects to it…
How pronounced is the “side lift” from a crosswind component?
What are the effects of increased cross sectional area - both fairing and tail sections?
Sustained acceleration rate and reduced contact patch on the front wheel - and the resulting change in steering? How dynamic is the change in handling if you ease up on the throttle and increase weight on the front in reaction to some handling issue? What if you chop the throttle quickly if something bad is happening “right now”?!
If you do start generating a lot of “side lift” and something causes that crosswind component to exceed the “critical angle of lift” and it “stalls” - what happens to the handling of the bike?! What happens if this flow manages to stay attached (or re-attaches) to the tail section while the “side lift” is lost on the fairing with the “side stall”?
How does all this change if you try adding a “flat bottom” to the fairing?
I bet that is just the tip of the iceberg …
Tip of the iceberg indeed! All great questions!
A couple of years ago I ran some simulations to calculate side lift using a simulator I found on a NASA site. Somewhere I have the notes but IIRC it wasn't very hard to generate a couple hundreds pounds side force using typical fairing size and a small cross-wind component. I'll look for those numbers and/or try to regenerate them. We typically think of wings as being asymmetrical but symmetrical wings will generate lift if the angle-of-attack isn't zero degrees.
This is some pretty good thinking !
If one unexpectedly encountered a side wind of 10 mph - which is not so unusual at Bonneville, or even airport tracks, that is a side-force showing 15 feet per second of direction change.
With NO input from the rider (who may even be unaware of the wind) the bike will move toward the side of the track 15 feet in the 1st second, a total of 30 feet at the end of the 2nd second........etc.
Most of us who go over 250mph while fully tucked in prefer to not make sudden moves at those speeds.
HOWEVER, if we wait long enough - we are off the track........
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Hayabusa, ZX14, etc, chassis with rider, see center of gravity average at, and just below steering head heights, this combined with 23* 24* rakes, serve to exacerbate high speed handleing
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Hayabusa, ZX14, etc, chassis with rider, see center of gravity average at, and just below steering head heights, this combined with 23* 24* rakes, serve to exacerbate high speed handleing
I think that's several very good points.
The Honda MotoGP bikes showed that the center of Gravity (CG) can be TOO low, but now EVERYBODY is using "shape shifting" to lower BOTH the front and rear of the bike - by possible 4-6 inches !
Makes me wonder about the electronics .................
The leader of that stuff is DUCATI. At the last MotoGP, a FACTORY MotoGP bike - think $3,000,000 and a possible world championship went AWOL on track. The rider pulled in, saying the bike seemed to not know where it was on the track, and was messing with the tuning (Including the "ride height"), and it became unridable.
Would YOU be apprehensive if your bike "Dived" the front end six inches at 230 mph without your input ?
If the Center of Pressure CP - think the CG, but for the wind - is too HIGH, it will tilt the bike AWAY from the wind. Will it cause the bike to counter-steer INTO the wind?
If the CP is low, will it push the bike the other way, and what effect does THAT have?
Likewise, if the CP is FORWARD of the CG, will it tend to blow the bike off the track ?
Is it better to have the CP BEHIND the CG ?
At 50mph, who cares.
At 300 mph, it might be more attention getting .............