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GENERAL => MAXIMUM OVERDRIVE => Topic started by: RansomT on November 08, 2012, 08:46:59 AM

Title: Fatalities in LSR
Post by: RansomT on November 08, 2012, 08:46:59 AM
I was a little hesitant to post anything else over on the other thread (out of respect), but I would like to continue the discussion here.

As Scott stated, there has been 5 fatalities in LSR since 2008 with no fatalities 50 years prior.  While actual speeds involved have not changed, something else has.

I was suited and in the staging lanes when 2 of those fatalities happened.  Plus, I had talked with Dave from Bonneville the morning of his fatal crash.  I have done some real soul searching and deep thought on what could be the common thread of all 3, and so far have come up with nothing.  One was his first LSR event, the other was his first mile event but had ran Bonneville, and one was as experienced as they come.

I still think that frequency of runs with “fast” bikes is part of it, but I wasn’t racing 50 years ago, so I don’t know how today compares.

Safety equipment, I don’t think so considering the pictures I’ve seen from Bonneville in the 60s.

Preparedness,  maybe?

Thoughts?
Title: Re: Fatalities in LSR
Post by: joea on November 08, 2012, 10:15:11 AM
Ransom etal...

many folks want answers on many levels...emotionally, analytically etc

I think its important to grasp that there are specific reasons for each mishap which may
or may not be linked to others..

I also think that this would need to be broken down analytically to get clearer picture before
broad strokes applied to the answers..

it may be very beneficial to also stratify data from other "mishaps" that resulted in injuries and not death..as the
difference in mechanism of injury that resulted in survivable trauma to that resulting in death is likely very small given the greatly variable manner in which a rider impacts things...

in 50 + yrs how many sit on bike riders died on the salt..?...right around 0 ..?
in 10 yrs how many sit on bike riders died on pavement...?...
how many were decelerating .. ?...accelerating..?..how many on busas..?..


and the list goes on...

a spread sheet to take out some of the emotional impact on analysis may be very revealing..

Title: Re: Fatalities in LSR
Post by: Got-Busa? on November 08, 2012, 11:07:08 AM
I don't have all the facts but I think Bonneville can't be compared with any other event. 

You are talking about a flat wide open area with very little to hit.  If you go down, you have the area to slide and hopefully not have as great of injuries. 

At a 1-mile or paved event you have a shorter course and more obstacles to hit when leaving the course.  Again, I don't know all the facts from each incident and wasn't present for any of them but it would be nice to get more info out so we can keep these things from happening.  Isn't the saying "it's not the speed but the sudden stop at the end"...
Title: Re: Fatalities in LSR
Post by: RansomT on November 08, 2012, 11:26:11 AM
From the 2 that I witnessed, both ran off the track at the fast end without much slowing.
Title: Re: Fatalities in LSR
Post by: joea on November 08, 2012, 12:59:27 PM
got busa others.."but it would be nice to get more info out so we can keep these things from happening"

if that is the goal, it might behove folks to consider motorcyce lsr mishaps and mechanisms of the accident somewhat
together...ie if it pans out that (as a made up example) busa chassis with forks lowered over 2 inches, x front tire specs
and rear ballast of Y has a high potential for front end oscillation and accompanying crash, it might be smart to look
at as much data as possible...

its somewhat amusing to me that "I don't have all the facts but I think Bonneville can't be compared with any other event"...

is mentioned here when most have no problem trying to group speed comparisons when the conditions regarding the venues have many differing variables, not only surface, but maintaining speed for 5280 ft timing trap (traditional world record requirement) vs 132 ft is quite different, , yet  im curious why if comparing those, folks dont also garner all the runs from 1/4 mile track trap speeds over200 mph as well..?....ie FIM/SCTA have a timing trap 40 times longer than that of 1 and 1.5 mile venues, yet many of the 200 + lists dont include 1/4 trap speeds that are only 2 times shorter than 1 and 1.5 venues ....more fodder...:)
Title: Re: Fatalities in LSR
Post by: scott g on November 08, 2012, 07:56:08 PM
Jerry Wayne Lyons.

RIP

http://obits.dignitymemorial.com/dignity-memorial/obituary.aspx?n=Jerry-Lyons&lc=2591&pid=160774905&mid=5292661&locale=en-US


From the Texas Mile web site:

134.8 MPH  137.2 MPH  Jerry Lyons  Third Coast Speed  Third Coast Speed  2433  10/27/12  8:25:43 AM  Motorcycle  2006  Harley-Davidson  VRSCSE Screamin Eagle V-Rod  Orange  V Twin motor/ Modified   Sport Bike   USA (American Iron)  Naturally Aspirated  2 Cylinders  1200cc to 1349cc  Gasoline  NO Nitrous  NO Methanol Injection 

So: a heavy, slow motorcycle...........

Slower trap speed than
any other fatality.
Title: Re: Fatalities in LSR
Post by: zrxdean on November 08, 2012, 08:24:10 PM

Thoughts?

If the number of land speed racing entries was plotted over the last 10 years, I'd bet there'd be a steep rise in the last 5 years relative to the 50 years prior. Including myself. Especially for standing mile events. Doesn't explain Cliff Gullet or Dave Owen, but it may have something to do with the losses at ECTA and Texas this year. But, as Joe says, we need better data.
Title: Re: Fatalities in LSR
Post by: Got-Busa? on November 08, 2012, 09:36:57 PM
if that is the goal, it might behove folks to consider motorcyce lsr mishaps and mechanisms of the accident somewhat
together,.....it might be smart to look at as much data as possible...

its somewhat amusing to me that "I don't have all the facts but I think Bonneville can't be compared with any other event"...

is mentioned here when most have no problem trying to group speed comparisons when the conditions regarding the venues have many differing variables, not only surface, but maintaining speed for 5280 ft timing trap (traditional world record requirement) vs 132 ft is quite different, , yet  im curious why if comparing those, folks dont also garner all the runs from 1/4 mile track trap speeds over200 mph as well..?....ie FIM/SCTA have a timing trap 40 times longer than that of 1 and 1.5 mile venues, yet many of the 200 + lists dont include 1/4 trap speeds that are only 2 times shorter than 1 and 1.5 venues ....more fodder...:)

That's just my opinion but I don't compare any of them personally unless we are just talking max speed...over a cold beverage...

IMO, I just don't see how you can.  Bonneville is another animal when talking 1-1.5mile paved events.  I don't consider 1/4-mile against either because of the track prep and conditions alone.  Until you get a 5-8 mile paved track with VHT prep from one end to the other I don't see how you can...  Not to mention most bikes running over 200mph in the 1/4 are on 1-wheel for a large portion if not all of the track length...


As far as the incidents, how many did the rider leave the course (paved surface)?  I don't think it's just what's causing people to crash but what happens after they go down.  It would be one thing if all incidents were blow tires or some other mechanical failure but they aren't.  Is it rider error, track, weather conditions, etc...what?



Title: Re: Fatalities in LSR
Post by: FlaminRoo on November 09, 2012, 01:16:53 AM

As Scott stated, there has been 5 fatalities in LSR since 2008 with no fatalities 50 years prior.  While actual speeds involved have not changed, something else has.


"no fatalities 50 years prior,, while actual speeds involved have not changed, something else has,??,,"
          the venues that we run at, before all the short tarmac venues we only ever ran max speeds at Bonneville where you have plenty of time to reach max velocity, however the shorter tracks drastically limits the time one has to reach these velocitys, then, you are under pressure to get it all stopped saftly,,
Title: Re: Fatalities in LSR
Post by: scott g on November 09, 2012, 07:44:49 AM
It is always the saddest day when we lose
one of our own in Land Speed Racing.

From the start of motorcycle land speed racing
at Bonneville in the 1950's, until August of 2008,
LSR for motorcycles did not lose a single on-track
competitor in an sanctioned event;
a period of more than 50 years.

NO fatalities at Bonneville, El mirage, Maxton.

In August of 2008, likable Cliff Gullett died at Bonneville,
and then in September, Dave Owen died at Maxton. 

Within a few years, two more ECTA competitors
had lost their lives in ECTA events.

And now Jerry........

Five fine young men in 5 years,
after more than 50 "safe" years.

Something has changed.
Title: Re: Fatalities in LSR
Post by: scott g on November 09, 2012, 07:48:34 AM
The speeds have NOT changed.

Cliff's 2008 fatal streamliner crash happened
in the vicinity of 230 MPH, in the 500cc class.

B. Johnson's 1962 650cc record at Bonneville (60 years ago...)
was 230 MPH in a Triumph single-engine streamliner.

Dave Owen's 2008 crash began just before he entered
the Maxton traps at about 185 MPH.

In the 1960's and early '70's, Harleys, Triumphs,
and even Royal Enfield were running over 200 MPH.

Dave Owen was my crew chief at Bonneville in 2008,
and saw Jason McVicar's 244 MPH crash.

My bike, Jason riding !

(use volume)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QImtEKiicus

David Edwards, this past summer
suffered this 177 MPH Bonneville crash

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Vd3jbZpHoE

Both Crashes were "street bikes",
and both were very survivable

Neither Bonneville crashes were"speed wobbles !"

None of the three ECTA crash deaths were "wobbles."

Jerry's crash was probably well below 150 MPH,
maybe even as low as 90 MPH.

The two other ECTA deaths were below 200 MPH.

Speed is NOT the issue.

Wobbles are NOT the issue.
Title: Re: Fatalities in LSR
Post by: zrxdean on November 09, 2012, 08:29:27 AM
I imagine that each LSR fatality has its own set of causes, and it's very difficult to prove a negative. I'm not comfortable ruling anything out. Chassis oscillation is a part of LSR - as you know. I think Joe has some experience with it as well.
Title: Re: Fatalities in LSR
Post by: scott g on November 09, 2012, 09:59:12 AM

I imagine that each LSR fatality
has its own set of causes,


Very true !

I would suggest that we are probably
looking at two main areas of discussion:

1)  Cause of the crash.

2)   Cause of death.
Title: Re: Fatalities in LSR
Post by: scott g on November 09, 2012, 10:02:20 AM


As far as the incidents, how many did
the rider leave the course (paved surface)? 


In the three (3) ECTA fatalities,
all three suffered fatal injuries
OFF the track.

At this point, we don't know what
caused Jerry's death.
Title: Re: Fatalities in LSR
Post by: scott g on November 09, 2012, 10:08:01 AM
I don't think it's just what's causing people to crash but what happens after they go down. 

It has been said
"it's not the fall that kills, it's the sudden stop."

1) We are probably interested in "what causes the fall."

2)  How do we define "the stop?"

This might be a good opportunity to bring in two (2)
other inportant crashes that (fortunately) did NOT result in fatalities:

Karl Gunter and Bill Warner's horrible crashes at the Beeville Track.
Title: Re: Fatalities in LSR
Post by: entropy on November 09, 2012, 10:25:59 AM
I imagine that each LSR fatality has its own set of causes, and it's very difficult to prove a negative. I'm not comfortable ruling anything out. Chassis oscillation is a part of LSR - as you know. I think Joe has some experience with it as well.

Dean has a PhD, so I'm comfortable with not being comfortable ruling anything out. :thumb:
Title: Re: Fatalities in LSR
Post by: scott g on November 09, 2012, 10:42:59 AM
I'm not comfortable ruling anything out. Chassis oscillation is a part of LSR - as you know.

As seen in the two (2) video's of Bonneville crashes,
there are very different causes.

1) Jason's crash was caused by his rear tyre striking
a piece of sharp debris on the track -
a piece of a Chevy engine block.

The "cut" caused the tyre to delaminate,
and resulted in Jason's "high side" get-off.

2) David's crash was the fault of a Weave and not a wobble.

3)  Weave is a oscillation of the rear wheel about the steer axis (About 2 hertz)

4) A wobble or "flutter" is the front wheel oscillating on the steer axis, (about 8-10 hertz)

I have looked into all the fatal "incidents," and find that there was NOT a wobble or weave
involved that left physical evidence of that oscillation in the 1st four deaths.

Can't say yet about Jerry's crash.

No investigation has been published.......
Title: Re: Fatalities in LSR
Post by: scott g on November 09, 2012, 10:45:08 AM

Dean has a PhD, so I'm comfortable with not being comfortable ruling anything out. :thumb:



My PhD work was in Transportation and Safety,
with a speciality in Motorcycle Safety.

I am comfortable ruling things out........
Title: Re: Fatalities in LSR
Post by: entropy on November 09, 2012, 10:49:53 AM
I don't think it's just what's causing people to crash but what happens after they go down. 

It has been said
"it's not the fall that kills, it's the sudden stop."

1) We are probably interested in "what causes the fall."

2)  How do we define "the stop?"

This might be a good opportunity to bring in two (2)
other inportant crashes that (fortunately) did NOT result in fatalities:

Karl Gunter and Bill Warner's horrible crashes at the Beeville Track.

Scott,

From one of my doctors: "it's a miracle you didn't die".

he went on to explain that the left side of my chest was crushed, 6 ribs were broken both in the front and in the rear.
The gravity of that situation is due to all those pointy broken ribs and the likelihood of my heart or other important organ getting stabbed.

Karl
Title: Re: Fatalities in LSR
Post by: entropy on November 09, 2012, 11:14:03 AM
Dean has a PhD, so I'm comfortable with not being comfortable ruling anything out. :thumb:

My PhD work was in Transportation and Safety,
with a speciality in Motorcycle Safety.
I am comfortable ruling things out........

I'm glad everyone is FINALLY getting comfortable discussing this topic.

Since DaveO's crash I have been REALLY UNCOMFORTABLE with folks NOT discussing it.

I understand that some people are in a situation where there might be legal ramifications.

I understand that some people just don't like talking about the possibility of death in our sport.
Title: Re: Fatalities in LSR
Post by: scott g on November 09, 2012, 11:32:43 AM
Dean has a PhD, so I'm comfortable with not being comfortable ruling anything out. :thumb:

My PhD work was in Transportation and Safety,
with a speciality in Motorcycle Safety.
I am comfortable ruling things out........

I'm glad everyone is FINALLY getting comfortable discussing this topic.

Since DaveO's crash I have been REALLY UNCOMFORTABLE with folks NOT discussing it.

I understand that some people are in a situation where there might be legal ramifications.

I understand that some people just don't like talking about the possibility of death in our sport.


I am pretty comfortable with all these topics
since investigating motorcycle accidents has
been my "day job" for 35 years......

Certainly the Beville track - and the promotors - are
at real risk for the Guenter and the Warner accidents,
and would be wise to adopt a VERY defensive posture.

Dave's accident is more complicated.

Cliff's accident may point to the maker of the bike.

Jerry's (and it was too bad that nobody was willing
to use his full name) crash will take some investigation,
even though the "crash" part of the fatality may have taken
place at the same speed at Karl's and Bill's impacts.....
Title: Re: Fatalities in LSR
Post by: zrxdean on November 09, 2012, 12:52:54 PM
I'm with Joe - we need more data. I don't think that declaring prematurely what did not happen is helpful. How can we be sure that Jerry's V-rod wasn't wobbling (however you'd like to define it) - without data? Especially considering that he was complaining of front end stability problems, and people report seeing chassis issues?
Title: Re: Fatalities in LSR
Post by: Oz Booster on November 09, 2012, 03:09:13 PM
And data that probably will not be available to the general public but maybe the governing associations
what actually happened physically that caused the persons involved to die
 i think we can inprove the safety of the individual as well 
Title: Re: Fatalities in LSR
Post by: WildBro on November 09, 2012, 04:04:04 PM
For everyone to see...

My crash @ Beeville TX
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j2j68kptHqU

I've watched 2 or 3 times, will not watch it again.(well atleast not after the mile marker)

Bill
Title: Re: Fatalities in LSR
Post by: fvance on November 09, 2012, 04:13:50 PM
As most everyone knows, two years ago I  crashed at Bonneville at around 210mph. On the previous run I experienced a serious lean on the bike. i did not know what caused it, made a couple of small chassis adjustments. On the next run the bike was leaning severly to the right. A crosswind gust hit me and I went down. I was lucky and was hardly hurt, walked away. I now know that I HAD MADE A SERIOUS ERROR IN MY BODY WORK. Sorry for yelling! The thing is I ignored the symptoms on the second run. Stupid me. I have occasionally experienced handling problems since, as soon as I see something is wrong I shut it down, come to the pits and work on the problem. I have learned, the hard way, descretion is the better part of valor.
Title: Re: Fatalities in LSR
Post by: entropy on November 09, 2012, 04:43:29 PM
As most everyone knows, two years ago I  crashed at Bonneville at around 210mph. On the previous run I experienced a serious lean on the bike. i did not know what caused it, made a couple of small chassis adjustments. On the next run the bike was leaning severly to the right. A crosswind gust hit me and I went down. I was lucky and was hardly hurt, walked away. I now know that I HAD MADE A SERIOUS ERROR IN MY BODY WORK. Sorry for yelling! The thing is I ignored the symptoms on the second run. Stupid me. I have occasionally experienced handling problems since, as soon as I see something is wrong I shut it down, come to the pits and work on the problem. I have learned, the hard way, descretion is the better part of valor.

Fred,
Excellent post! :thumb:
Title: Re: Fatalities in LSR
Post by: Jonny Hotnuts on November 09, 2012, 06:07:06 PM
Quote
The thing is I ignored the symptoms on the second run. Stupid me. I have occasionally experienced handling problems since, as soon as I see something is wrong I shut it down,

I made a run and had some weird sounds happening. I said 'f-it' and decided to make another run. Rod went through the case, filling the car with smoke and had to open my door at 70mph+ because I couldnt see where I was going and THOUGHT I was headed in the pits at 200!

Just a 'me too' in the lessons learned in life. Dont run it unless its right!!!

BTW:

Happy late B-day FV!!!!

~JH
Title: Re: Fatalities in LSR
Post by: fvance on November 09, 2012, 06:55:55 PM
Thanks JH, also thanks to everybody for the Bday wishes on FB. :tu: :bike:
Title: Re: Fatalities in LSR
Post by: Oz Booster on November 09, 2012, 07:15:13 PM
Happy BD Fred  :D

It doesn't take much to upset the handling on the salt
i have had a run or 2 where i was sure it was going to hurt
go back make some changes and try again, but you never know untill your out there if its working or not

my 2011 consisted of turnouts,  (with major changes made in the off season )and not any runs i wanted to complete
then 2012 started similar on the 750, but a 5mm spacer on the rhs lower fairing mount and some zigzag tape near the handlebar fill ins turned it into the sweet handling bike we had previously , just a minor lack of symetry.... it went from a bike that was uncomfortable at near 200 to a bike that ran like it was on rails to 238mph
Title: Re: Fatalities in LSR
Post by: FlaminRoo on November 09, 2012, 11:12:30 PM
i harker back to my previous post on the different venues that we compete at these days,, most (if not all) tarmac venues are held over a weekend, the pressure is on "to get 'er done",, however at Bonneville with four plus day events, if one experiences problems you can shut it down, knowing that you have time to come back out and have another shot, :), (as a event progresses at B'ville the stageing lanes become shorter)
Title: Re: Fatalities in LSR
Post by: joea on November 10, 2012, 03:41:30 PM
roo...i assure you the pressure can be on at any venue...

length of event can mean didly, when the event is almost over...etc..

ie one could look at the tarmac tracks and think...well i only need to make a one
way pass over the 132 ft timing trap for a record... that could go either way on the pressure
one puts on oneself...

ie on the salt...lets say you qualified after 10 yrs year of trying/attempts..at the last race of current year, then
after sleeping on it all night, you get up for the last morning of return runs after 3 miles getting up to speed, then 3/4 thru
of the timed mile you get some omninous handling..engine performance etc...you push it abit trying to get to end of the lights...

ANY venue is dangerous...

Title: Re: Fatalities in LSR
Post by: FlaminRoo on November 10, 2012, 05:37:18 PM
gotta sorta agree with ya Joe, but, as you say, in the longer duration events  extra pressure can be there at the end of the meet, sure, "at the end of the event",,, however, at the weekend gigs the pressure is right from the get go thru to the end,, a not so experienced competitor maybe feels that he has to get it done, therefor may tend to try and ride out a problem, some do some dont,, :),,
Title: Re: Fatalities in LSR
Post by: zrxdean on November 15, 2012, 10:46:18 AM
Anyone ever consider an airbag-equipped set of leathers?

http://www.dainese.com/us_en/d-air/

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mo9Vlt5tGwY
Title: Re: Fatalities in LSR
Post by: Team Millholland on November 15, 2012, 11:26:29 AM
I agree about the hurrying thing & we learned from it....

About 10 years ago my youngest son was trying to break 200 on a ZX9R, been fighting gremlins all week-end. Finally at the end of the day on Sunday we basically had the track to ourselves at Maxton and he was hot-lapping trying little things. Back then the long shutdown was basically a pig trail and we were using it instead of the short shutdown to save our rotors, we run streetbikes & were trying to make them last.
He pulled up to the line and thankfully the starter went around kicking his tires and found the rear one low, had a nail in it!

We KNEW to check tires between passes but in our haste we didn't. If there had not been a good, dedicated starter things could have gotten ugly.

Karl told me a year ago at Texas we have to start watching out for each other too & I agree.

Dan
Title: Re: Fatalities in LSR
Post by: JHerheim on November 18, 2012, 02:21:24 PM
Anyone ever consider an airbag-equipped set of leathers?

http://www.dainese.com/us_en/d-air/

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mo9Vlt5tGwY

I've been seriously considering it.   I'm waiting the A*'s stuff to hit state side.    I've done approximately 20 track days a year for the last couple.  And I intend to keep that going and get back to an LSR event. 

Right now the $5k price tag seems steep but I'm sure those who've suffered injury would gladly trade $5000 for less damage to themselves.


Pending the GPS logging function,  that could push me over the edge.
Title: Re: Fatalities in LSR
Post by: Wolf1397 on November 19, 2012, 03:36:51 AM
I agree about the hurrying thing & we learned from it....

Karl told me a year ago at Texas we have to start watching out for each other too & I agree.

Dan

I agree Dan. During the inaugural event at Loring, a very fast rider was getting ready to leave on a pass with the side stand down. I was a spectator but walked across the starting line and pointed to the left side of the motorcycle. That caught the crew chief's attention and he corrected the problem.
Title: Re: Fatalities in LSR
Post by: rustman on November 25, 2012, 01:58:41 AM
I know this isn't news, but looking at Bill's onboard again, it seems clear cut to me that he lost the front end when he transitioned from concrete to fresh asphalt.  You can see the shine on the tar.  The coefficient of friction allowable to maintain traction would suddenly be lower as soon as you crossed the threshold onto the asphalt.  The amount of lever pressure would need to change on transition "if" your were at the limits of what the asphalt would allow when you crossed onto it.

I lost the front end on my crash on concrete at the Goliad track.  I have less of an excuse for that, but I do know that I had been doing it for a while, riding for decades, and did nothing different to my knowledge, and yet I went down.  There could have been something on the track that caused a slip.  I doubt it, but I'll never know.  These both are different from what happened to Dave, as far as I know.  I assume he wasn't sliding off the end of the track.  It's his crash that really scares me.  I have no idea how it could have happened, given the limited information that I have had.  That's fine.  There is a fine line between tasteful and curious.  I'd rather not cross it.
Title: Re: Fatalities in LSR
Post by: entropy on November 25, 2012, 12:54:33 PM
....  There is a fine line between tasteful and curious.  I'd rather not cross it.

Russ, i do NOT think there is a fine line between tasteful and curious. 
They are 2 completely different subjects.

Think of airline crashes.
EVERY last detail is studied until the investigators conclude what caused the accident, all to prevent future accidents.

LSR-ers should insist that accident causes, whatever is known, become public knowledge.
This is not "curiosity", it is self preservation.
karl
Title: Re: Re: Fatalities in LSR
Post by: ktw88q on November 25, 2012, 06:37:51 PM
....  There is a fine line between tasteful and curious.  I'd rather not cross it.

Russ, i do NOT think there is a fine line between tasteful and curious. 
They are 2 completely different subjects.

Think of airline crashes.
EVERY last detail is studied until the investigators conclude what caused the accident, all to prevent future accidents.

LSR-ers should insist that accident causes, whatever is known, become public knowledge.
This is not "curiosity", it is self preservation.
karl
I agree with this...

Sent from my SGH-T989 using Tapatalk 2

Title: Re: Fatalities in LSR
Post by: rustman on November 25, 2012, 07:50:50 PM
I think you guys are right. We're not being morbid here and rubbernecking at a car crash. Perhaps someone who was at maxton might at least speculate here asto what happened to Dave. My gut tells me that Dave would approve.
Title: Re: Fatalities in LSR
Post by: Team Millholland on November 25, 2012, 08:04:31 PM
Rustman,

PM sent,
Dan
Title: Re: Fatalities in LSR
Post by: rustman on November 25, 2012, 10:01:18 PM
Thanks Dan. I enjoyed talking with you and appreciate your theory as to what might have happened. I might discuss it in person with fellow racers that I know, but I think I'll refrain from pushing it here. We'll never know for certain. I will say that no theory that I've heard, nor my own reflects badly on Dave. 
Likewise, I don't mean to brush over the others to whom this thread refers. It's tragic in each case.
Title: Re: Fatalities in LSR
Post by: TrickTom1 on November 26, 2012, 07:35:40 PM
This is a good an constructive thread, IMHO. That being said, I think that there are MANY that have been lucky, including myself, and wish all the rookies were given a riding lesson before being allowed on the track.

I didn't not always think this way...
Title: Re: Fatalities in LSR
Post by: scott g on February 11, 2013, 12:57:34 PM
This is a good piece on Ron Cook's
 two accidents at El Mirage in about 1998.

You will see that this crash is a WEAVE (rear wheel)
and NOT a wobble (front wheel)

A)  It is unusual for a motorcycle to have a violent,
crash inducing "weave."

B)  it is very unusual to have the crash video taped.

C)  It is highly unusual to the same rider to have
the "same" crash on the "same" bike.

D  I believe that this is the ONLY video of the same rider,
on the same bike having the same crash - only
2 weeks apart - and having it video taped.....

Don't need to do much reconstruction here,
the tape shows it all !

This video runs a while - but it is worth every minute !


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XTfKJFrUi9w


By the way, it is easy to "reconstruct" Ron's speed
when he starts sliding on the dirt.

1)  The narator reports 588 feet of sliding.

2)  The bike can be seen (and heard) making
substantial deceleration after passing
 through the exit of the traps.

3)  Studies of pedestrians sliding on dirt after impact
 from a car suggest that a "drag factor"
of about 1.3 is appropriate for this crash to calculate speed.

3)  Speed is calculated by using the standard formula of
 Speed = square root of 30 x drag factor x distance sliding,
or S = square root of 30 x 1.3 x 588, S = 151 MPH.

So, Ron had some pretty healthy deceleration
BEFORE he started sliding.

Probably saved his life !
Title: Re: Fatalities in LSR
Post by: fvance on February 11, 2013, 01:24:55 PM
Wasn't the first crash at Muroc and the .second at El Mirage?
Title: Re: Fatalities in LSR
Post by: scott g on February 11, 2013, 01:36:10 PM
Fred:

You are probably correct,
since the crashes
were only 2 weeks
apart.

Scott
Title: Re: Fatalities in LSR
Post by: scott g on February 11, 2013, 01:38:02 PM
Some of you will recall Jason McVicar's
horrible Bonneville crash of a few years
ago, in August.

Jason was riding my bike.

I was an eye witness, and was
the first "Civilian" to Jason after
the crash........

Bonneville Crash Interview with Jason McVicar - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QImtEKiicus)

We can see Jason was "high sided" forward
of the crashing bike.  Jason was projected
almost horizontally from the saddle.

Using a standard formula,
we can calculate the time for jason
to fall to the salt surface from his
center-of-gravity's height of 36 inches.

The time would be about  0.43 sec.s

The debris field
( I investigated this accident)
was about 1,800 feet long.

Assuming Jason starts ejection
when the blown-tyre debris appears,
than the whole of Jason's VERY high
speed is lost in the 1800 feet of the crash.

Jason reports the "Bang" of the exploding
tyre happens when he is traveling
"only in the mid 240's"

The bike "spins" anti-clockwise for
about 100 feet, and then ejects
Jason into the air.

Jason, whatt falling 3 feet to the salt,
travels about 150 feet down the track.

If Jason slides on the Salt with the
same coefficient of drag as Ron Wood
slid at El Mirage, than his speed ca
 be calculated in the same way:

1)  S = square root of 30 x 1.3 x 1550 feet
(1800 - 100 - 150 = 1550)

 2)  S= sq root of 60,450

3)  S = 245 MPH
Title: Re: Fatalities in LSR
Post by: fvance on February 11, 2013, 01:53:54 PM
When I went down at Bonneville, My speed at the 2 mile was 208. I went down just  past the 2mi. I was lucky and came off the bike immediately. The bike never tumbled and slid through the lights at the 21/4 at 168. I slid right up to within a foot from the 21/4 lights. Walked away, lost about a pound of ass. :hys:
Title: Re: Fatalities in LSR
Post by: fvance on February 11, 2013, 02:27:19 PM
And by the way I consider Jason and myself two very lucky guys.
Title: Re: Fatalities in LSR
Post by: scott g on February 11, 2013, 05:04:17 PM
When I went down at Bonneville, My speed at the 2 mile was 208. I
went down just  past the 2mi. I was lucky and came off the bike immediately.

The bike never tumbled and slid through the lights at the 21/4 at 168.
I slid right up to within a foot from the 21/4 lights.
Walked away, lost about a pound of ass. :hys:

Fred:  Assume you lost very little speed getting off,
but it took 250 feet to make that decision and to
"hit the salt."

Speed = S = 1280 - 250 = 1030 feet sliding.

s + Sq rt of 30 x 1.3 x 1030 = 200 MPH.

Bike usually is less than 1/2 the drag
of a leathers clad human. = about 0.60

168 --> 0 @ f=0.60 about = 1,568 feet.

subtract about feet for the bike to fall on it's side: 450 ft
(after all, it's not immediate)
(see the other films of motorcycle wobbles)

(@ 208 MPH, 450 feet takes 1.5 seconds)

1280 - 450 = 830 feet

add 830 to 1,568 = 2,398 feet overall feet of sliding @ 0.60
Speed of bike = sq rt of 2,398 x 30 c 0.60 =  sq root of4,316

Intiial speed of bike about =  207.76 MPH

No magic, just science.

Scott
Title: Re: Fatalities in LSR
Post by: fvance on February 11, 2013, 05:18:41 PM
Yeah I got all of that, not. :hys: I came off the bike as it was going down, or right as it hit the salt. No warning, other than extreme lean, :mrgreen:
Title: Re: Fatalities in LSR
Post by: entropy on February 14, 2013, 06:45:19 AM
Yeah I got all of that, not. :hys: I came off the bike as it was going down, or right as it hit the salt. No warning, other than extreme lean, :mrgreen:

Fred,
you have balls the size of [put your favorite huge thing in here]. 
With the uneven friction and bumpiness of the salt, i wouldn't want to be leaned over at WOT at all.  :shudder

I am a pussy, me.  And crashing when you are on the North side of 60 YO has different results than when you are young and flexible.

karl
Title: Re: Fatalities in LSR
Post by: fvance on February 14, 2013, 09:26:42 AM
Karl, I dont know about the big balls theory!! :mrgreen: I think it was the unwavering quest for speed and being too dumb to know when to lift. :hys: I am much more cautious now. Had I been hurt very bad I am sure I would not be doing this stuff anymore. As you say us old farts don't heal like we used to.
Title: Re: Fatalities in LSR
Post by: RansomT on February 25, 2013, 02:26:06 PM
This is a good piece on Ron Cook's
 two accidents at El Mirage in about 1998.

You will see that this crash is a WEAVE (rear wheel)
and NOT a wobble (front wheel)


I'm not so sure about that ....

I took the "not so good" video and slowed it down to 1/4 speed, enhanced it (as much as I could), and tried to isolate when the movement occurred.  It appears to me, which I could easily be wrong, that the WEAVE actually permeates from the front to the back.  Then the WEAVE gets more osculated transferring back to the front.  If this is the case, then it could be more of an issue with an overly aggressive steering dampener and/or over grip of the bars.  But of course, this is conjecture on my part and I am working with a copy of a copy of a broadcast video.

You can download my video here and watch it.  It is an AVI file suitable for a Windows machine.  It is large (81Mb) even though it is only 22 seconds.  I loop several times at the end what looks to be the first Wobble transferring to a WEAVE and back.

http://sdrv.ms/XwWz3a (http://sdrv.ms/XwWz3a)
Title: Re: Fatalities in LSR
Post by: scott g on February 26, 2013, 08:24:40 PM
This is a good piece on Ron Cook's
 two accidents at El Mirage in about 1998.

You will see that this crash is a WEAVE (rear wheel)
and NOT a wobble (front wheel)


I'm not so sure about that ....

 It appears to me, which I could easily be wrong,
that the WEAVE actually permeates from the front to the back. 

Then the WEAVE gets more osculated transferring back to the front. 
If this is the case, then it could be more of an issue
with an overly aggressive steering dampener and/or
over grip of the bars. 


Ransom:

Good observations and analysis.

The Society of Automotive Engineers (SAE) defines
A WEAVE as predominantly a movement of the rear wheel,
in the range of 1-3 Hz (cycles per second).  Ron Cooks "problem"
may have started in the front, and moved to the rear,
but in the final analysis, it is the weave of the rear that is the cause of the crash.

The SAE defines a Wobble as primarily a "flutter"
of the front wheel in the range of 8-10 Hz.

Ron clearly has no front wheel
"wobble" in that cyclic range.

There is an SAE paper from the 1970's that
 tested steering dampers for motorcycles (!)

The results were interesting:

1) Damping suitable to "extinguish" the wobble made the weave worse.

2)  Damping to extinguish the weave made the wobble worse.

Remember, a motorcycle is an articulated vehicle.....
Title: Re: Fatalities in LSR
Post by: Busa 4 Life on February 27, 2013, 08:28:10 AM
WOW. Reading all this.. Im new to LSR. I plan on doing my first ever run this summer.. cant say reading this hasnt rocked me and made me second guess it because im new..
Title: Re: Fatalities in LSR
Post by: RansomT on February 27, 2013, 09:00:20 AM
Ransom:

Good observations and analysis.

The Society of Automotive Engineers (SAE) defines
A WEAVE as predominantly a movement of the rear wheel,
in the range of 1-3 Hz (cycles per second).  Ron Cooks "problem"
may have started in the front, and moved to the rear,
but in the final analysis, it is the weave of the rear that is the cause of the crash.

The SAE defines a Wobble as primarily a "flutter"
of the front wheel in the range of 8-10 Hz.

Ron clearly has no front wheel
"wobble" in that cyclic range.

There is an SAE paper from the 1970's that
 tested steering dampers for motorcycles (!)

The results were interesting:

1) Damping suitable to "extinguish" the wobble made the weave worse.

2)  Damping to extinguish the weave made the wobble worse.

Remember, a motorcycle is an articulated vehicle.....

Wow!  Great Info!

A comment about the 3 bottom statements:  I purchased a BMW S1Krr as my street bike a couple years back and joined a couple of BMW forums.  Most of those folks are either professional or weekend road racers.  The consciences from the professional riders are that the biggest mistake in setting up suspension is the dampener.  They basically restate those bottom 3 statements.  They claim that most riders when they start racing professionally get the dampener on the tight side because the rest of the suspension is not quite correctly set.  The dampener masks the problem, but it will transfer the flutter into the rest of the suspension causing weave. Then human nature takes over and riders will over grip the steering aggregating the problem.

What got me curious about that particular wreck is that when Ron gets off the bike, the bike gets stable.  Which reflects, I think, what I said above.
Title: Re: Fatalities in LSR
Post by: scott g on February 27, 2013, 04:33:52 PM

What got me curious about that particular wreck
is that when Ron gets off the bike, the bike gets stable. 

Which reflects, I think, what I said above.


Many of us have seen flat-track racing on TV.

Sometimes a rider crashes, and the bike
"jumps up" and continues without problems
until it hits something, or slows and falls over.

The bike is "more stable" without the rider ?

The average race bike is smarter than the average rider,
and the bike "knows best."
Title: Re: Fatalities in LSR
Post by: scott g on February 28, 2013, 08:56:30 AM
WOW. Reading all this.. Im new to LSR.
I plan on doing my first ever run this summer..
cant say reading this hasnt rocked me and made me
second guess it because im new..

Come join us, and be among the 99.9% of us
that never have a serious problem.

But....just remember, son,
"there's danger behind them hills....."
Title: Re: Fatalities in LSR
Post by: Busa 4 Life on February 28, 2013, 01:42:47 PM
WOW. Reading all this.. Im new to LSR.
I plan on doing my first ever run this summer..
cant say reading this hasnt rocked me and made me
second guess it because im new..

Come join us, and be among the 99.9% of us
that never have a serious problem.

But....just remember, son,
"there's danger behind them hills....."

I dont play over hills or the twisty's never know whats on the other side or what or who is coming at you..
Title: Re: Fatalities in LSR
Post by: shiphteeey on March 28, 2013, 06:55:22 AM
Just saw this thread as I don't always make it over here to the Busa world.

My friend Gerald Deneau's death at the Ohio Mile in June 2012 was a bit of a mystery to myself and others.  Here was a man who had drag raced in his early years, who purchased a ZX12R when it was first released in 2000 and racked up over 30K miles on it before bringing it to the track.  A bike which I personally piloted on the street to just shy of 189 mph on GPS to make sure it was "safe" at those speeds.

I can tell you his spirits were lukewarm Saturday when he ran a best of 168 mph.  It seems a combination of focusing too much on needing to run the exact speed (and not get in trouble for going too fast for a license run) mixed with the 2000 model's notoriously small numbers on the speedometer may have caused him to struggle too much (spend too much mental energy and time) to run the appropriate speed. 

The standing mile is quite LONG for those who haven't done it.  Speeding on the highways or racing your buddies on the streets....goofing off and flirting with jailable speeds still doesn't necessarily quite prepare some for ... dare I say ... courage and humility it takes to run the standing mile.

I did my best to get his spirits up and after a hearty breakfast and a game plan of not worrying about perfect redline shifts and instead get to 6th gear early and hold it wide open.  I just wanted him to focus on getting the throttle wide open in 6th and look for the finish line, nothing else.  He was plagued with shifting issues, shifting too late or not at all and bouncing on the rev limiter longer than the majority of other participants.  I figured without his attention being taken up by a small numbers on a speedometer or getting shift points precise instead clutch up 5 gears very early and hold on till the finish.

Well he went through the traps at 175 mph.  There were reports of people saying they heard him on the limiter....which would indicate not going into 6th as advised....which is a human mistake (miscount...how many of us have shifted into 7th).  According to eyewitnesses there was no evidence of shutting down.  No brake lights (streetbike), no rolling off sound, body position wasn't normal...it just didn't add up....and at those speeds going off the track ... well....you can figure out the rest.

With the help of the authorities, ECTA, his family and others who I may have forgotten at this time I and a couple other helpful officers at the impound wrestled the twisted, mangled, depressing sight of a 2000 ZX-12R for the long haul back home.  The damage was catastrophic to say the least.  For the family's sake and for my own sanity I went through the shifts on the shifter once the engine was removed from the frame.  Save for the slight possibility of the motorcycle's shifter upshifting or downshifting while tumbling, the bike was still in 5th gear.

It was finally released to me after a lengthy wait (I don't know if that is normal or not, maybe given the situation) that the official cause of death was related to blunt force trauma.  In other words the accident and tumbling caused his death.  That still gave no answers as to WHY.  WHY was there no visible attempt to slow down. 

Having thought about it almost every day since June 2012 my gut says one of 2 things.  He was in his early 70s....and I can't help but think it was either a medical reason (heart attack, stroke, etc) or failing to realize where the finish line was.  Based on his significantly varied speeds throughout the licensing passes on Saturday I can see how missing the orange cones/flags in your peripheral if you are zoning in (straight or tach) is possible would lead you to go past the finish.  And in his early 70s I woud say it was safe to say that my eyesight may have been better than his.

Years ago I ran at the TX Mile and zoned so hard on the tach, desperate for 100 more RPMS to go 200 mph that by the time I looked back up I realized I couldn't see the MILE MARKER  :eek:  So here I am trying to haul this bike down to normal speeds, higher than stock tire pressure, single rotor up front.  Lots of finessing and brakes, slight front, mainly rear...and I end up keeping it upright and go into the grass maybe 20 mph?  Gave the guys at shutdown a  :tu: and did my  :bike: back to pick up my slip.

A momentary lapse of judgement is all it takes.  It didn't matter how many times I went over his bike (taking him under my wing since he had the same bike as I), going over the game plan of riding, shutdown, licensing, etc.  There is always the human element.  We forget this 1" of styrofoam around our heads, foam and leather around our bodies can only do so much.  Safety is a state of mind, we forget sometimes.

Be safe everyone.

A.
Title: Re: Fatalities in LSR
Post by: shiphteeey on March 28, 2013, 07:01:31 AM
Slight correction.  Towards the end I stated slowing my 12 down through the traps at TX after missing the mile marker and realizing it too late.  I used mainly FRONT brakes and a little rear, just so we're clear.
Title: Re: Fatalities in LSR
Post by: Wolf1397 on March 28, 2013, 03:03:10 PM
Very well written post. Thank you for sharing. Sorry you had to experience that.
Title: Re: Fatalities in LSR
Post by: Oz Booster on March 28, 2013, 04:24:17 PM
There is an interesting post in this thread by Turbofan that may explain missing the finish line
i will link it and not copy so its all in context
http://www.landracing.com/forum/index.php/topic,11935.0.html

it may or may not be the case at anytime but i can sure see how it could happen
Title: Bill Warner - Champion
Post by: scott g on July 15, 2013, 10:30:55 AM
BILL WARNER WAS A MAN IN FULL.

Only 44 years old, Bill Warner accomplished more in land speed racing
than most racers accomplish in a career – probably ten careers.   
Most knowledgeable racers expect that Bill’s 311 MPH terminal speed 
record in the 1.5 mile race will not be broken in their lifetimes,
and that Bill’s mile record of 296 MPH – set only hours
before his death – will be the same.

Warner, a marine biologist and college graduate was a gentle tropical fish farmer
in the Tampa Florida area.  Bill came late to land speed racing,
beginning a racing career of rocket-ship-like performance less than 10 years ago. 

Always trying to reach the next level of speed, Bill was never satisfied with “good enough.” 
Bill quickly proved his championship strengths by taking the Texas Mile motorcycle
track record with an un-streamlined bike in 2010.

It was at that point that we all realized that everybody else was playing catch-up ball,
and that we were in the final 2 minutes of the game.

The next year, Bill slammed down his earth- shaking, and world-beating 311 MPH run at Loring.

In one single run, Bill became the first to break
270 mph, 280 mph, 290 mph, 300 mph and 310 mph.

In a time when the ultimate record was being increased by
Measures of 5 or 10 mph – or even 2 mph – Bill in one run
advanced the mark 50 mph.

And he wasn’t even done.

Bill brought to the sport, and to his pursuit of that sport, a drive and intensity
rarely seen in it’s combination of intellect, scientific thinking, willingness
to work 24/7 and to place all his worldly assets in the service of his racing goals.

While doing this, Bill maintained an even temper,
rarely if ever raising his voice in anger. 
He blessed his friends with his ready humor,
and he humored those that thought they were his competition. 

In fact, Bill had no competition.

And he never will.
Title: Re: Fatalities in LSR
Post by: fvance on July 15, 2013, 10:37:26 AM
Well said Scott, thank you.
Title: Re: Fatalities in LSR
Post by: TrickTom1 on July 15, 2013, 03:49:42 PM
I first saw this on LR, very nice Mr. G :thumb:
Title: Re: Fatalities in LSR
Post by: scott g on July 15, 2013, 05:14:08 PM
My wife Ellen knew Bill al long
as any of the rest of us. 

Here are some of her memories.

Bill was unique.  When he first started racing,
some didn't take him too seriously - after all,
what would a marine biologist know about motorcycles.

His Hayabusas always had something
unusual - the guys would nonchalantly head
for his pit to try to figure out what Bill was doing now.

Bill took the teasing about his bike with
good humor - he would just smile in
a knowing way - and you knew there
were a lot more secrets to come out.
 
He was humble about his records.

When we celebrated at Texas,
we practically had to force him to join us
and raise a glass of wine to his accomplishments.
But that wonderful big smile - as only Bill
could smile - when he got a record
was something you never forgot.
 
To say he will be missed is
an enormous understatement - there
was no one like him - and there never will be.

Ellen Guthrie
Title: Re: Fatalities in LSR - How many are ENOUGH ?
Post by: scott g on July 24, 2013, 01:37:22 PM
       FATAL and POTENTIALLY FATAL
  INCIDENTS in PAVEMENT LSR EVENTS.



1)   Karl Gunter – - - - - shutdown – Beeville - survived
2)   Billy Shoemaker – shutdown – Beeville  - survived
3a) Bill Warner – - - - -  shutdown – Beeville – survived
4)   Jerry Wayne Lyons - track -------Beeville - DIED

3b)  Bill Warner –-   shutdown – ECTA Maxton  - survived
3c)  Bill Warner – -  shutdown – ECTA Maxton  - survived
5)    Guy Lombardi     -shutdown – ECTA – Maxton - DIED
6)    Dave Owen –  --  -shutdown – ECTA – Maxton – DIED
7)    T J Cannon----- -  track - ECTA – Maxton – survived
VIII) Debbie Dross – shutdown - ECTA – Maxton - survived

9)    Gerald Deneau –shutdown - ECTA – Wilmington - DIED
10)  Donna Timney- shutdown – ECTA – Wilmington – survived

3d)  Bill Warner  - - -track and shutdown – Loring - DIED

11)  John Noonan –    track – Mojave mile - survived

Short summary:

Fourteen (14) incidents
Eleven (11) individuals involved
Ten (10) year time span
Ten (10) involved shutdown
Five (5) deaths

Contrast: 

Several incidents at Bonneville
and El Mirage – zero (0) deaths
Title: Re: Fatalities in LSR - How many are ENOUGH ?
Post by: entropy on July 25, 2013, 07:47:46 AM
EVERYONE:  read Scott's post again and think...
Thanks, Scott :thumb:

Karl



       FATAL and POTENTIALLY FATAL
  INCIDENTS in PAVEMENT LSR EVENTS.



1)   Karl Gunter – - - - - shutdown – Beeville - survived
2)   Billy Shoemaker – shutdown – Beeville  - survived
3a) Bill Warner – - - - -  shutdown – Beeville – survived
4)   Jerry Wayne Lyons - track -------Beeville - DIED

3b)  Bill Warner –-   shutdown – ECTA Maxton  - survived
3c)  Bill Warner – -  shutdown – ECTA Maxton  - survived
5)    Guy Lombardi     -shutdown – ECTA – Maxton - DIED
6)    Dave Owen –  --  -shutdown – ECTA – Maxton – DIED
7)    T J Cannon----- -  track - ECTA – Maxton – survived
VIII) Debbie Dross – shutdown - ECTA – Maxton - survived

9)    Gerald Deneau –shutdown - ECTA – Wilmington - DIED
10)  Donna Timney- shutdown – ECTA – Wilmington – survived

3d)  Bill Warner  - - -track and shutdown – Loring - DIED

11)  John Noonan –    track – Mojave mile - survived

Short summary:

Fourteen (14) incidents
Eleven (11) individuals involved
Ten (10) year time span
Ten (10) involved shutdown
Five (5) deaths

Contrast: 

Several incidents at Bonneville
and El Mirage – zero (0) deaths

Title: Re: Fatalities in LSR
Post by: entropy on July 25, 2013, 08:17:53 AM
I posted this on the Bill thread:

"There was no luck in Bill's racing program
His objectives were carefully defined.
And the steps needed to achieve his objectives were written down and he followed them
He wasn't obsessed, but he had total focus, and worked around the clock.
He achieved the highest level of success..."
************************************************************************

I didn't know Bill to the depth that some others like Larry, Trillium, Jody, his ole Vmax buds.
But I've been racing with him since 2008/Maxton, pit/grid yakking, eating cheap food, staying in cheap hotels.

But the last several months, along with Bob Sellers, Billy Shoemaker, Tom Gates, Randy Baines, et al, I'd been talking with Bill several times a week on planning the Houston Mile.

Slam me if you will, but IMO Bill's passion, his primary focus in 2013 has been the Houston Mile, not his bike.

Getting 300mph in the Mile seemed to be something he felt he had to achieve in order to sell his rocketship, but i didn't hear about joyful meticulous planning & anticipation of being handed a 1.0Mile 300mph ticket.
Bill didn't even put his bike on the dyno before heading up to Wilmington; ran out of time.

THERE IS A WARNING HERE.
Asphalt LSR is a VERY dangerous sport and takes:
total focus on a defined program & objectives,
meticulous preparation,
zen like execution,
no distractions.

in 2010, Bill spent 2 days at my house installing my AIMS dash, my goal was to build and ride the fastest NA Busa on the planet.  Top of the apex.  Bill thought it was possible and had tons of advice.
We talked at length about stuff like dynoing before every event, about detailed visualization the upcoming pass, about reviewing logs, about total focus.
(Ryan, you ever wonder where i got all that stuff i've been spouting???)

Again, slam me if you must, but i feel Bill wasn't taking his own advice in July, 2013.

Racers:
Please have a defined program and stick to it.
Passing tech inspection means close to nothing.

Title: Re: Fatalities in LSR
Post by: nickelcityracing on July 25, 2013, 08:51:18 AM
I posted this on the Bill thread:

"There was no luck in Bill's racing program
His objectives were carefully defined.
And the steps needed to achieve his objectives were written down and he followed them
He wasn't obsessed, but he had total focus, and worked around the clock.
He achieved the highest level of success..."

I didn't know Bill to the depth that some others like Larry, Trillium, Jody, his ole Vmax buds.
But I've been racing with him since 2008/Maxton, pit/grid yakking, eating cheap food, staying in cheap hotels.

But the last several months, along with Bob Sellers, Billy Shoemaker, Tom Gates, Randy Baines, et al, I'd been talking with Bill several times a week on planning the Houston Mile.

Slam me if you will, but IMO Bill's passion, his primary focus in 2013 has been the Houston Mile, not his bike.

Getting 300mph in the Mile seemed to be something he felt he had to achieve in order to sell his rocketship, but i didn't hear about joyful meticulous planning & anticipation of being handed a 1.0Mile 300mph ticket.
Bill didn't even put his bike on the dyno before heading up to Wilmington; ran out of time.

THERE IS A WARNING HERE.
Asphalt LSR is a VERY dangerous sport and takes:
total focus on a defined program & objectives,
meticulous preparation,
zen like execution,
no distractions.

in 2010, Bill spent 2 days at my house installing my AIMS dash, my goal was to build and ride the fastest NA Busa on the planet.  Top of the apex.  Bill thought it was possible and had tons of advice.
We talked at length about stuff like dynoing before every event, about detailed visualization the upcoming pass, about reviewing logs, about total focus.
(Ryan, you ever wonder where i got all that stuff i've been spouting???)

Again, slam me if you must, but i feel Bill wasn't taking his own advice in July, 2013.

Racers:
Please have a defined program and stick to it.
Passing tech inspection means close to nothing.

I will get into the things that went wrong with Bill at some point and time but not now... I do agree with your statement 100% karl..... the one thing I wanted to add, and like you said larl " slam me if you must"... as a LSR racer or any racer for that matter, you must be ready to live with the consequences if things go wrong.... or ready to let your loved ones live with them if they really go wrong......   Jody
Title: Re: Fatalities in LSR
Post by: fvance on July 25, 2013, 09:32:58 AM
As everyone who knows me knows my favorite place is Bonneville. I never cared that much about pavement, especially the mile. I did have fun at Loring and Mojave. My wife did not like me running on pavement. If I ever run on pavement again it will be Production, not fast, relatively speaking. Jason Mcvickers, and I went down at Bonneville at well over 200mph, Jason at 240+. and walked away. Bill and Karl went down at Beeville at around 100mph and were hurt bad!!
I have talked, email, with a fellow Bonneville and pavement racer this week. He has been really fast, 260+. He told me that for the time being he will not be running any pavement events.
I would encourage all of you to seriously think about Bonneville. It is the coolest thing in the world to keep the hammer down for 3-5 miles. IMHO.
Title: Re: Fatalities in LSR
Post by: zrxdean on July 25, 2013, 10:40:00 AM
I don't know if I'm ready to think objectively about Bill's crash, but Karl's insights make sense. I wasn't there, but it sounded like Bill was making more passes in less than perfect conditions than I've known him to make before. Carrying the front wheel at 290 in a crosswind! Huge dedication and understanding of the task.

I think Fred's talking about me. Driving up to New York, I thought hard about what I could do to keep myself sane. My wife Leslie said she would support me 100% no matter what I chose to do. She knows I'm careful, and that I am passionate about racing. Other family was more direct - stop racing. Mostly I thought about my young son Ben. I had a scare at Ohio in April, and it made me think hard about all the little things that can go wrong. I will miss standing mile racing a lot, and maybe someday I'll do it again, but for now I will focus on Bonneville.
Title: Re: Fatalities in LSR
Post by: Got-Busa? on July 25, 2013, 03:45:15 PM
I agree with what's been said so far (Jody, Karl, Fred, Dean).  I have my thoughts on it and each instace.  Still waiting for more info to be released on what may or may not have happened with Bill.  I'm sure a lot of use have our theory/opinion.

I do believe the salt is more forgiving during a crash and less of a risk when you do go down.

My family doesn't want me to race anymore but it's so hard to just walk away.  I've ridden motorcycles my entire life and have many memories with my Dad as a child.  However, I do think about my kids and with very small ones at home, I ask myself is it really worth the risk? 

We all miss Bill but would he really want us to just stop and walk away.  I really don't know what I'm going to do... 

Title: Re: Fatalities in LSR
Post by: Oz Booster on July 25, 2013, 05:53:18 PM
I think you have to follow your heart !


On another tact , what can be done to improve the venues ? gravel traps ? concrete barriers ?, not so much to stop you going down, but slow you quicker  or keep you in a defined area ??

Scott do you have any records of car incidents over the same time frame
Title: Re: Fatalities in LSR
Post by: nickelcityracing on July 26, 2013, 04:17:03 AM
I agree with what's been said so far (Jody, Karl, Fred, Dean).  I have my thoughts on it and each instace.  Still waiting for more info to be released on what may or may not have happened with Bill.  I'm sure a lot of use have our theory/opinion.

I do believe the salt is more forgiving during a crash and less of a risk when you do go down.

My family doesn't want me to race anymore but it's so hard to just walk away.  I've ridden motorcycles my entire life and have many memories with my Dad as a child.  However, I do think about my kids and with very small ones at home, I ask myself is it really worth the risk? 

We all miss Bill but would he really want us to just stop and walk away.  I really don't know what I'm going to do...
I understand its hard to walk away, we did it.... I got scared at Maxton during one of my last passes... things where not the same after that, so I stopped... as for what Bill would want ? who knows? only Bill I guess... But I would think if he saw the pain his mother and sister are going through now, he would have thought differently... this is just my opinion.... I understand there is risk in everything, just make sure you weigh the risks and the rewards and make your personal decision from there.....   
Title: Re: Fatalities in LSR
Post by: bulletb on July 26, 2013, 02:36:43 PM
Bill touched alot of our lives in so many ways! I think we all are rethinking what we do in racing & I personally, am rethinking, what I do in my personal life as well.....remembering he was MORE THAN JUST A NUMBER!
He was Bill....FMF!

Bob.
Title: Re: Fatalities in LSR
Post by: TrickTom1 on July 26, 2013, 06:58:22 PM
I agree with what all of you have said. However, I believe that if that was the day that he was supposed to leave us and if he did not have that accident, that something else would have happened. It could have been on the way to the hotel or in the shower. Pavement racing does have more risks but the races are more often and there are more tracks to do it at.

Put a fat kid in a room alone with a cake and put another one a mile down the road and see which one he'll eat...

I believe that each individual has to weigh their desires vs. the risks that they are willing to take. It's different for everyone based on your faith, marriage, kids or not, etc. There was a time when I was doing this that I did not have an ounce of fear and was okay if I died doing it because I was LIVING. That eventually changed for me plus I got bored and also saw Bill leaving the rest of us behind. It's sad that Bill is gone but he was doing the same thing and doing what a lot more of us wish that we could have done.

We talked every week but there were still so many things that we needed to do and talk about. There were lots of things that I wanted to ask him about his racing program but was waiting until he was done.

Love You Bill, see you again one day   :thumb:
Title: Re: Fatalities in LSR
Post by: nickelcityracing on July 26, 2013, 08:49:40 PM
I have not been on here for a while and I see Jody has posted a few thoughts. Well here are mine and how I feel about all this. Does anyone remember the best friend charms that broke in half. Well they could never make a charm big enough with enough pieces for Bill to share with all his friends. I feel blessed to know I would have one. I met Bill in 2006 at Maxton we exchanged numbers and would talk for hours about everything for the last 7 years. The amazing part is Bill knew everything about me and was still my friend. Bill would give me the best advice and encouragement almost every time we talked. He made life fun and the future always looked so bright.   For some reason I keep thinking over and over this was not suppose to happened, how am I going to live with this pain for the rest of my life. So many times at the track we would talk about how hard it was to be crew and not the racer. If anything ever happened I wanted to be the one on the bike and for Jody and Bill to be okay. I hate the fact that we were not with him at Loring this time, it's just killing me.  It sounds strange but I love Bill more then some members of my family, he was family to me. I believe we all have to decide what risks we are willing to take. And ask our loved ones how they would feel if we died doing what made us feel alive. I am not sure if I would race again, not able to think about that yet.    Trillium
Title: Re: Fatalities in LSR
Post by: entropy on July 27, 2013, 06:41:05 AM
I agree with what all of you have said. However, I believe that if that was the day that he was supposed to leave us and if he did not have that accident, that something else would have happened. It could have been on the way to the hotel or in the shower. Pavement racing does have more risks but the races are more often and there are more tracks to do it at.

Tom,
I KNOW you are 110% about safety.
You are the one who insisted on coming to my garage after i "finished" Greenie in mid 2010, and meticulously spent several hours, checking every nut, bolt, set up from end to end.

I love you like a Brother, and 110% respect your beliefs.

But I don't agree that the dramatic difference in deaths/life threatening injuries on asphalt in comparison to salt is simply fate. (maybe i miss-understood yr post?)

Scott Guthrie's rack up of asphalt vs salt stats was an eye opener for me. :thumb:
I may even take back all the Scott bashing  :wink: i've posted in appreciation of his insight.
(OK, not ALL, but most... :hys: )

So what to do about it?

Certainly NOT quit asphalt LSR.

Certainly YES look for opportunities to make asphalt LSR safer

Some things are obvious e.g. make the traps 110% visible.
Make em so obvious a blind man couldn't miss em.
Donna Timney's recent accident highlights the problem, but ECTA is not the only venue with this issue.

When Mojave switched directions, i went through the traps TWICE, never saw them.
On the 3rd pass i hugged the right side of the track and finally saw the cones at the traps.
Noonan also had a hard time seeing the traps and proposed, as a temp solution, erecting an EZUp at each side of the finish line. 
This was a temp solution and not recommended as SOP (who wants to run into an EZUp), but was WAY safer than not seeing the finish.

salt vs asphalt
Tim Chin (smartest man in the world) offers that the lower coffecient of friction on salt may be part of Bonneville's excellent safety record, i.e. slide vs grip and highside.
One set of conditions at Bonneville vs 5+ asphalt tracks is likely an issue.
Also Bonneville has had 50 years to work on safety vs asphalt 15 years.

Path Forward
This IS NOT about adding a 4th tech inspection at Wilmington (IMO 3 is too many)
This IS about basic hazards  structural and procedural.

In any event, I feel strongly we should systematically identify risk areas and mitigate them.

Karl
(...sanctimonious preaching over, Karl looks around and nods at the cheering crowd as he steps off his soap-box...)
Title: Re: Fatalities in LSR
Post by: Warp12 on July 27, 2013, 08:42:29 AM
First, let me state that I am not specifically addressing Bill's incident. There are too many unknowns at this point.

I think there are obvious areas where you can engineer out the risk (always the preference). Those would include some changes in the track layout, or procedure.

I also think we all know that a lot of accidents happen due to poor decisions. This may be a decision to go too fast too soon, it may be a decision to run in the wrong conditions, or it may be an unfamiliar machine, a personal procedural issue, a decision to not let out of the throttle, riding "over your head", simple "rider error", etc.. A good book on racing is Keith Code's "Twist of the Wrist". He discusses the finite amount of attention we have, our attention "budget", and that is definitely an important point. Safety starts and ends with the racer.

As an example, and this might not be popular...I've read the stories of racing in very bad winds in TX, for years now. I seem to recall pictures of bikes crossed up in the wind at well over 200 mph. At the time, people would say things like, "man that guy has big balls". I'm sure that if there would have been a crash, someone would quickly exclaim, "they should have held the track due to wind!". Well, is that really the issue? Or would it have been a personal choice to pilot the machine in those conditions? Yes, a track has an obligation to set safety standards and adhere to them, but ultimately the racer makes the final choice on any approved pass. I could cite many examples of questionable rider decisions, and near misses, but that would only serve to ruffle feathers.

As for tech inspections, one comprehensive one is all you need. Certainly no more than two, if done by experienced techs. The problem is getting one comprehensive one. Everyone has different tech levels, and it is volunteer work. If it were a paying job, with real in-depth training, clearly defined job expectations, etc., that might be a little different. The reality is that some people are teching bikes and they really don't even understand basic mechanical functions. And then we come back to the racer. How many times does a racer hope to "slide" through tech, knowing that their machine doesn't quite meet the requirement? Rule books are plentiful....but it is a personal decision to adhere to them. And finally, there are so many potential mechanical/safety issues that fall outside of tech inspection...that it again comes back to the racer.

As one final note, a very important point is this: LSR, by nature, is a dangerous, potentially deadly, sport. That is on everyone's mind right now, but it has always been so. It is important to digest that. Think hard about the risks, and your ultimate responsibilities as a racer. Think about it often.

Shane
Title: Re: Fatalities in LSR
Post by: TrickTom1 on July 27, 2013, 11:05:15 AM
Very good stuff guys :thumb:

There are many ways to make pavement racing safer, Karl you are on the right track. I can quickly think over several accidents where someone missed the finish line at multiple tracks. I also really believe the Tim Chin is correct about the salt. Shane is spot on about bad decisions, lack of qualified motorcycle tech and people allowed to run in high winds. Pavement racing is not going away. You guys are the best in the business, so keep your constructive ideas going and hopefully they will be utilized by all tracks that are truly concerned about racer safety.

Title: Re: Fatalities in LSR
Post by: fvance on July 27, 2013, 11:32:14 AM
My thoughts on wind, I hate it. At Bonneville they shut the track down at 12mph. With all the bodywork I have I wont run with over 6mph. Running naked the wind is not so much a factor. Sometimes, at Loring and Beeville, you will have a tailwind at the starting line and you get down track and it turns to a crosswind. Yuk.
Title: Re: Fatalities in LSR -Why Do We Out Up With This ?
Post by: scott g on July 27, 2013, 12:56:15 PM
Deaths in pavement
motorcycle LSR racing

Comparisons:

NASCAR


Some assumptions:

Average NASCAR Cup race= 400 miles
Average # racers                    = 33
Average # laps per race          =  160
Average # miles per driver, per race =  10,000
( 25 finishers @ 2.5 x 160 )       

Total races / season                       = 25

Total racing miles / season           =  250,000

Deaths / season (fraction)      = 0.2   

Deaths / mile raced                = 1 per  1,250,000


Motorcycle Land speed racing
on pavement


8-10 tracks, of which maybe 5 - 6 tracks
offer motorcycle racing

About 10 motorcycle LSR races / year

# motorcycle entrants racing, about =  50
Miles raced per entrant, about          =   3
(many folks make one run, some don't
race at all.  A few make 10 or more runs)

10 races x 50 riders x 3 miles   = 1,500 motorcycle
racing miles per year.

Deaths about = per year    = 5 / 5.5  =  0.9
(2008 – present (5 total)

2008   mid 2013 about = 5.5 years)

So:  Motorcycle LRS on pavement, riders about
( 1,500 / 0.9 = 1,667 miles) one / 1,667 miles raced

Discussion:

With maybe 50 finishers, the Daytona 200 motorcycle
race would have  about 10,000 miles raced each year.

At LSR’s rate of fatalities, than would mean
(10,000 / 1,667 = 6) six riders would die EACH YEAR


That would mean, if only veterans died, that
we would have a complete new field of racers
every 9-10 years, and NO survivors after 10 year's..

In NASCAR, at a fatality of one per 1,667 miles,

If each race represents 10,000 miles driven,
than (10,000 / 1,667 = 6) 6 drivers would die
EVERY RACE).

In one season of 25 NASCAR races, there would be
(25 x 6 = 150) 150 deaths.
A complete new field of drivers every 6 races.

NASCAR would have to replace EACH DRIVER
more than 4 - 6 times per year !

Conclusions:

Motorcycle LSR is possibly the most
dangerous motor racing in the world.



WHY DO WE PUT UP WITH THIS ?

Title: Re: Fatalities in LSR -Why Do We Out Up With This ?
Post by: Warp12 on July 27, 2013, 01:20:50 PM
Deaths in pavement
motorcycle LSR racing

Comparisons:

NASCAR


Some assumptions:

Average NASCAR Cup race= 400 miles
Average # racers                    = 33
Average # laps per race          =  160
Average # miles per driver, per race =  10,000
( 25 finishers @ 2.5 x 160 )       

Total races / season                       = 25

Total racing miles / season           =  250,000

Deaths / season (fraction)      = 0.2   

Deaths / mile raced                = 1 per  1,250,000


Motorcycle Land speed racing
on pavement


8-10 tracks, of which maybe 5 - 6 tracks
offer motorcycle racing

About 10 motorcycle LSR races / year

# motorcycle entrants racing, about =  50
Miles raced per entrant, about          =   3
(many folks make one run, some don't
race at all.  A few make 10 or more runs)

10 races x 50 riders x 3 miles   = 1,500 motorcycle
racing miles per year.

Deaths about = per year    = 5 / 5.5  =  0.9
(2008 – present (5 total)

2008   mid 2013 about = 5.5 years)

So:  Motorcycle LRS on pavement, riders about
( 1,500 / 0.9 = 1,667 miles) one / 1,667 miles raced

Discussion:

With maybe 50 finishers, the Daytona 200 motorcycle
race would have  about 10,000 miles raced each year.

At LSR’s rate of fatalities, than would mean
(10,000 / 1,667 = 6) six riders would die EACH YEAR


That would mean, if only veterans died, that
we would have a complete new field of racers
every 9-10 years, and NO survivors after 10 year's..

In NASCAR, at a fatality of one per 1,667 miles,

If each race represents 10,000 miles driven,
than (10,000 / 1,667 = 6) 6 drivers would die
EVERY RACE).

In one season of 25 NASCAR races, there would be
(25 x 6 = 150) 150 deaths.
A complete new field of drivers every 6 races.

NASCAR would have to replace EACH DRIVER
more than 4 - 6 times per year !

Conclusions:

Motorcycle LSR is possibly the most
dangerous motor racing in the world.



WHY DO WE PUT UP WITH THIS ?


Well, Scott, I think that if you put NASCAR racers on bikes, and they were to ride them using the same tactics....yes, you would be replacing a lot of drivers.

I think the thought is well-placed, but I think it is hard to compare cars and bikes. If you look at the total number of crashes, you will probably find that NASCAR is much higher. But the cars provide a lot more protection. Safety gear, and systems, are an important area of focus, as you know. One that we should all consider.

Shane
Title: Re: Fatalities in LSR -Why Do We Out Up With This ?
Post by: scott g on July 27, 2013, 01:36:55 PM


Well, Scott, I think that if you put NASCAR racers on bikes,
and they were to ride them using the same tactics....yes,
you would be replacing a lot of drivers.

I think the thought is well-placed, but I think it is hard to
compare cars and bikes. If you look at the total number
of crashes, you will probably find that NASCAR is much higher.
But the cars provide a lot more protection. Safety gear, and systems,
are an important area of focus, as you know. One that we should all consider.

Shane

I think the NASCAR numbers NOW look ok,
but in Dale Sr's time, they did not.

NASCAR knew they had a problem,
and they are trying to fix it.

When is the last time somebody died at
the Daytona 200 Motorcycle race ?

They race 10,000 miles in one race,
usually with zero (0) deaths.

Motorcycle LSR pavement racing
kills somebody Every YEAR,
with NO corners, only 1,500 racing miles,
and only one (1) person on the track at a time.

What's the difference ?

Title: Re: Fatalities in LSR -Why Do We Out Up With This ?
Post by: Warp12 on July 27, 2013, 01:55:27 PM
What's the difference ?

There are a lot of differences that I can think of. One of them is that any guy with a motorcycle license, and a tech card, is not going to qualify for the Daytona 200. However, if you took 50 random guys with street licenses and had them make 3 laps, and then let them loose to run 200 mph on the banking....yeah, you might have an issue. If you look at the list of crashes that you compiled, there are some common themes. There are elements that are the responsibility of a race organization, and there are elements that fall on the individual.

Shane
Title: Re: Fatalities in LSR
Post by: nickelcityracing on July 27, 2013, 02:34:27 PM
Was anyone aware that Lorning had huge concrete pads all the way down the side of the track? I am pissed off about that. 
Title: Re: Fatalities in LSR
Post by: fvance on July 27, 2013, 02:40:09 PM
I knew they were there. I thought they pointed them out on the drive through, but maybe not.
Title: Re: Fatalities in LSR
Post by: FlaminRoo on July 27, 2013, 03:59:18 PM
in investigations done to date, has a common theme been identified, that has contributed to these fatalities ??,, (ie. bumps, landing lights, drains, ???)
Title: Re: Fatalities in LSR
Post by: Got-Busa? on July 27, 2013, 04:04:16 PM
Was anyone aware that Lorning had huge concrete pads all the way down the side of the track? I am pissed off about that. 

Bingo!
Title: Re: Fatalities in LSR
Post by: clearblue on July 27, 2013, 04:38:34 PM
We all know the risks when we do any type of racing , I don't LSR but do Drag race and hold my NHRA Competition Licence . Looking at what Bill hit those things should have been removed before that track was used (just my 2ct there). But there is allways more to a crash , LSR racing you are on the bike longer at top speed then drag racing and that helps add to the likelihood of a crash . When Bill crashed in Texas it was a wash out at the end of the track on a shitty surface , Not rider error, I know Bill felt  this was the case and talked to me about it . I also know that any loss of focus or need to rush things ends badly ( 2 crashes for me on the street in 40 years both when I was looking at something to the side of me ) .  Someone here posted up about how people will say" balls of steel" when riding in not so good conditions , we all need to keep this in our minds and question our friends if we think their judgement might be off a little.
Title: Re: Fatalities in LSR
Post by: Nosgsx1300 on July 27, 2013, 04:51:24 PM
Was anyone aware that Lorning had huge concrete pads all the way down the side of the track? I am pissed off about that. 

Bingo!

The Track is 300 feet wide!!! Maxton wasn't anywhere near that. what did we have there 40 feet of "usable" track width?   Loring is a top notch venue
Title: Re: Fatalities in LSR
Post by: nickelcityracing on July 27, 2013, 05:05:02 PM
Was anyone aware that Lorning had huge concrete pads all the way down the side of the track? I am pissed off about that. 

Bingo!

The Track is 300 feet wide!!! Maxton wasn't anywhere near that. what did we have there 40 feet of "usable" track width?   Loring is a top notch venue

When you travel at the speeds Bill did from the center of the track 150 ft is seconds, then to hit a concrete pad. Still pissed.
Title: Re: Fatalities in LSR
Post by: scott g on July 27, 2013, 06:49:51 PM


The Track is 300 feet wide!!!

Maxton wasn't anywhere near that.
what did we have there 40 feet of "usable" track width?   

Loring is a top notch venue


If Maxton died and went to heaven,
it would come back as Loring !

Loring is the best paved
LSR track in the world !
Title: Re: Fatalities in LSR
Post by: FlaminRoo on July 27, 2013, 06:52:07 PM
@280mph = 410 feet per second,,,,
Title: Re: Fatalities in LSR
Post by: nickelcityracing on July 27, 2013, 07:32:01 PM
Was anyone aware that Lorning had huge concrete pads all the way down the side of the track? I am pissed off about that. 

Bingo!

The Track is 300 feet wide!!! Maxton wasn't anywhere near that. what did we have there 40 feet of "usable" track width?   Loring is a top notch venue

When you travel at the speeds Bill did from the center of the track 150 ft is seconds, then to hit a concrete pad. Still pissed.
Should have typed thousandths of a second. If all the concrete pads were removed it could be a good track. But for now I am not impressed.
Title: Re: Fatalities in LSR
Post by: scott g on July 27, 2013, 08:04:59 PM
Should have typed thousandths of a second.
If all the concrete pads were removed it
could be a good track.

But for now I am not impressed.

True, but far easier to bury or "hide"
the lights than to try to turn Maxton
or Beeville into Loring...........
Title: Re: Fatalities in LSR
Post by: entropy on July 27, 2013, 08:55:27 PM


The Track is 300 feet wide!!!

Maxton wasn't anywhere near that.
what did we have there 40 feet of "usable" track width?   

Loring is a top notch venue


If Maxton died and went to heaven,
it would come back as Loring !

Loring is the best paved
LSR track in the world !

Especially taking the shutdown length into consideration, 110% agreed.
Title: Re: Fatalities in LSR
Post by: RansomT on July 27, 2013, 09:55:44 PM
Scott and others,

Have we just been over looking the obvious?  The commonality of pavement LSR, unlike any other form of pavement racing, is that it is held at venues not orginally designed for racing.  We are attempting to do high risk racing at venues designed for aircraft take-offs and landings.  Not only are the venues designed with that in mind, but are situated and located so that the prevailing winds allow for lift.
Title: Re: Fatalities in LSR
Post by: Wolf1397 on July 27, 2013, 10:19:19 PM
Not only are the venues designed with that in mind, but are situated and located so that the prevailing winds allow for lift.

That is exactly right; the direction of a runway is based on years of wind surveys before it is built.  Airplanes are happiest with the most headwind and the least crosswind possible.  Works perfect for LSR in the opposite direction. 
Title: Re: Fatalities in LSR
Post by: Team Millholland on July 27, 2013, 11:18:04 PM
I loved running at Loring in 2011 & 2012, not just because of the venue & folks.....I just really liked that big track after running at Maxton for 10 years.
I had a love/hate relationship with that place.
The memories of the boys and me racing together there is wonderful, losing our friend Dave was absolutely heart-wrenching.

We made the last event and on our final passes I went first and sit on the return road at shutdown and prayed for Chad to stay upright then in a moment the same thing with Zack. I never liked the curve or the flattened headers and busted oil pans that came with the broken concrete. Wilmington made this ol' father happy. I still worried, but not as much.

Now with the loss of Bill, I'm struggling on my own LSR future. First of all, we knew (and Bill the most) that he was in uncharted territory the last couple of years. He had no one to compare notes with on everything like us mere mortals. We talked about it a few times just like many of your conversations with him.
He had some great advice and help from several of you on this forum but he knew it was all on him to make his runs as safe as possible.
I have never run the numbers a lot of you have but even going fairly fast the speed overcomes the fear when I'm tucked in and I've truly enjoyed it. I think for Bill it was even more than just the thrill, the challenge of exceeding carried him.
What a guy he was and not just on Land Speed Racing, he was a prince of a man.

I love drag racing and was commited to running Bill's event just to get some 1/2 mile passes, not even concerned about the mile speeds so maybe Father Time is catching up with me......I dunno.

Dan
Title: Re: Fatalities in LSR
Post by: entropy on July 28, 2013, 05:57:16 AM
Well written, Dan.
You make me proud.
karl
Title: Re: Fatalities in LSR
Post by: scott g on July 31, 2013, 11:53:44 AM
In the 1930’s and 40’s, Land Speed Racing (LSR)
was formalized with the formation of the
Southern California Timing Association (SCTA).

The SCTA was a true association, being formed
and run by the racers themselves.  The racers
 built the cars and bikes, laid out the course,
wrote the rules, and paid for the timing clocks themselves.

The SCTA, still in business at El Mirage in California
and at Bonneville in Utah, is the model for all other
“timing associations” throughout the world,
whatever their business models.

When the East Coast Timing Association (ECTA)
was formed in the 1990’s, they used the model
of the SCTA, and even their rulebook - with suitable
adjustments for pavement instead of dry lakes.

When the Loring Timing Association (LTA) was formed in the 2000’s,
The LTA, with permission of the ECTA, used the ECTA rule book.

The history of racers organizing themselves - and policing
themselves - is part of LSR’s DNA, and goes
uninterrupted back to the 1930’s.
Title: Re: Fatalities in LSR
Post by: scott g on July 31, 2013, 11:56:24 AM
The tradition of LSR is for the racers to be in charge of themselves:
The racers write and enforce the rules, are responsible
for their own safety, and decide how the racing is organized and paid for.

An often-overlooked part of this “association” point of view is that
each racer is partly responsible for the safety of all other racers. 
This would include discouraging a racer from going down the track
if the racer is “out-of-control” or dehydrated. 

It might also include reminding a racer to wear his glasses…….


Of the fourteen (14) “incidents in recent pavement LSR racing,
there are legitimate questions in at least four (4) involved riders
- and three (Lombardi, Owen and Deneau) of the five fatal
results - may not have realized they had passed the timing traps,
and were approaching the end of the track.

Obviously, ANY LSR association would be concerned with even one fatality.

The concern would be much higher when the MAJORITY of the deaths
could be laid to a SINGLE CAUSE the might be easily prevented.
Title: Re: Fatalities in LSR
Post by: scott g on July 31, 2013, 11:59:33 AM
With that in mind, I forwarded Karl’s and
my thinking to Joe Timney of the ECTA

(Racers taking care of racers).

Joe:

I was chatting with Karl Gunter, and he
had a nice idea for additional safety at
the Ohio track.

1)  Put bright green lights at the finish of the timing traps.

2)  Have a bright red light (maybe 300-400 feet
past the timing lights) turn on after a vehicle trips
the timing lights.

More warning to racers that
the finish lights have been passed.

YHS

Scott
Title: Re: Fatalities in LSR
Post by: scott g on July 31, 2013, 12:04:34 PM
Joe quickly responded.

(Dean Sabatinelli is also a PhD, and has been timed TWICE
at over 269 MPH at Loring on an SGR Hayabusa)

Scott,

I have asked Dean Sabatinelli for assistance in this matter and
three PH.D's have been contacted. Their specialties include noise,
annoyance and information processing, coding for visual displays,
human vision, perception, and visual performance and transportation safety.

I have contacted various manufacturers who produce safety lighting.

We have identified that at the half mile mark the track goes downhill
for not quite a half mile and then becomes level again. The red placards
get muted by the white concrete.  The track faces the southwest
and the afternoon sun becomes a factor also.

Things we have learned:

Flashing lights are the best for capturing attention.

Every onset and offset drives the visual system.
Flashing lights presented at 5-8 per second have
the best attention capture properties.

There are very few folks out there with photo-sensitive
epilepsy - about 500 people in the entire country. It comes
on at puberty, so they typically know that they know they have it.
The flash rates that trigger reactions are fast; 12-18 per second.


Joe
Title: Re: Fatalities in LSR
Post by: scott g on July 31, 2013, 12:27:11 PM
Scott and others,

Have we just been over looking the obvious? 

The commonality of pavement LSR, unlike any other form of pavement racing,
is that it is held at venues not originally designed for racing.  We are attempting
to do high risk racing at venues designed for aircraft take-offs and landings.
 Not only are the venues designed with that in mind, but are situated and
located so that the prevailing winds allow for lift.


After WWII, soldiers came home, and wanted to race
their home-made hot rods.  Drag racing had not yet been formally
invented, and the NHRA had not been conceived or formed.

HOT ROD magazine did not exist.

For racing off the streets, the only choices were dry lakes,
which was fine if you lived in Utah (Bonneville) of LA (el Mirage) but
old airfields were EVERYWHERE, and the government had little use for them.

In that period of time, there was no concept of ET (elapsed time),
and allanybody wanted to know was "how fast is it."

Racers on old airstrips were running 4-wide for a mile total !

NO ET, just top speed !

Until the NHRA appeared with a business model, drag racing
had no "purpose built" tracks, and no real money.

Now, drag racing finds that cars are going "too fast" in the 1/4 mile,
and the TF (top fuel) boys are racing 1,000 feet.

It's possible to envision that the "fast guys" will
be reduced to 1/8 mile track MAXIMUM.
Title: Re: Fatalities in LSR -Why Do We Out Up With This ?
Post by: scott g on July 31, 2013, 12:44:50 PM
What's the difference ?

if you took 50 random guys with street licenses and had them make 3 laps, and then let them loose to run 200 mph on the banking....yeah, you might have an issue.

Shane

Shane:

Certainly, the relative lack of experience
is a BIG hazard, as you correctly point out.

Currently, most "associations" insist on "licensing passes."

For some of us, that means "125 mph, 150 mpg,
175 mpg, 200 mph, 250 mph"
and then you get to go full throttle.

Do we need MORE license passes ?

When you get a driver license
(max legal speed = 75 mph if you are lucky)
you have to take a test.

Is something like that called for here ?

How do we get around the lack of experience
for both the WOT part, and (maybe more importantly)
the "slowing down" part ?
Title: Re: Fatalities in LSR
Post by: Got-Busa? on July 31, 2013, 02:19:57 PM
The Track is 300 feet wide!!! Maxton wasn't anywhere near that. what did we have there 40 feet of "usable" track width?   Loring is a top notch venue


Honestly, I don't know how you guys even raced at Maxton for so many years.  I never got a chance to race at that location but based on pictures, that place was a train wreck waiting to happen based on the layout alone, surface condition, etc... I understand that was probably all you could find to race on but realistically probably one of the most unsafe places ever to race IMO...

With that in mind, I forwarded Karl’s and
my thinking to Joe Timney of the ECTA

(Racers taking care of racers).

Joe:

I was chatting with Karl Gunter, and he
had a nice idea for additional safety at
the Ohio track.

1)  Put bright green lights at the finish of the timing traps.

2)  Have a bright red light (maybe 300-400 feet
past the timing lights) turn on after a vehicle trips
the timing lights.

More warning to racers that
the finish lights have been passed.

YHS

Scott


This is something they have at Texas!  Once you trip the timing beam they have bright RED lights flashing along the edge of the track.  It's very easy to see but....


Shane:

Certainly, the relative lack of experience
is a BIG hazard, as you correctly point out.

Currently, most "associations" insist on "licensing passes."

For some of us, that means "125 mph, 150 mpg,
175 mpg, 200 mph, 250 mph"
and then you get to go full throttle.

Do we need MORE license passes ?

When you get a driver license
(max legal speed = 75 mph if you are lucky)
you have to take a test.

Is something like that called for here ?

How do we get around the lack of experience
for both the WOT part, and (maybe more importantly)
the "slowing down" part ?

...the problem has been in the shutdown. 

How many of the accidents happened not at 200+ accelerating but after passing through the lights and slowing? 

Either running off the track (brake failure or to much speed), washing out the front end, or exiting the course and hiting something, etc..  I believe only one of the accidents happened in the first 1/4-to-1/2-mile at 100mph..

Hate to say it but with technology these days getting up to 170+ isn't really that tough anymore, it's getting the things slowed down that is the problem at many of these events.

Are people really going to fast or just not seeing the finish line?  Not seeing the end of the track?  Do we need a vision test at the track?

The other issue is if things do go wrong and you go down, what will you hit?

At Bonneville you hit the salt and can slide for days.  If you exit the track at any of the paved events you will have a problem.  It doesn't matter what track you are talking about, they are not designed for people to exit the paved surface...PERIOD!  I was at Texas when all of the cars have crashed and we have witnessed what happens with motorcycles.  Look at the Lamborghini crash video, they hit a mound which launched the car (on a 230mph+ run).  Most that exit the grass at lower speeds have no issue but at triple digits it is a BIG problem.

Title: Re: Fatalities in LSR
Post by: entropy on July 31, 2013, 03:08:02 PM

Are people really just not seeing the finish line?  Not seeing the end of the track? 


YES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Title: Re: Fatalities in LSR
Post by: Team Millholland on August 01, 2013, 08:27:47 AM
Very good, informative information!

I am guilty of being too focused at the traps of being tucked in, watching my tach, etc. and have blown by the finish line. I honestly believe the ideas posted would help things out.

I thank you Karl for letting me ride in your vehicle at Texas & Loring, I remember you stressing to me the markers and their meaning.
I also remember you saying years ago that we have to start watching out for each other. Sometimes when the winds pick up we "push" the passes.

Improving visual aids at the traps and limiting runs in high side winds are two areas that should be addressed in my book.

Thanks folks,
Dan
Title: Re: Fatalities in LSR
Post by: Busa3268 on August 01, 2013, 09:11:13 AM
all great ideas

what about a shut down engine kill box if you past a said point and have not lifted? or a box to decouple the throttle cable past a point?

Saftey is very important as i plan to continue to race for many years.. No place is perfect as stated But Loring is nice for what it is.. I like the idea of running the mile and have 150% of track to come to a stop..
Title: Re: Fatalities in LSR
Post by: jarim on August 03, 2013, 05:15:28 AM
Just my 2 cents... There has been one fatality in Finland back in 2003, in that case the rider most obviously missed the braking point as he hit the the brakes only after around ~100 meters before the runway ends. Missing the braking point is the most common reason to accidents  in LSR in my opinion.

...


Things we have learned:

Flashing lights are the best for capturing attention.


...


My friend also missed braking point back in 2007 as it was poorly marked. Luckily he got away with it as he realized it early enough (run off the tarmac at the end but stayed up). Nowadays basically in every event we have a ambulance/police car with emergency lights on at the braking point. Nobody has run long since.
Title: Re: Fatalities in LSR
Post by: Got-Busa? on August 03, 2013, 11:19:24 AM
all great ideas

what about a shut down engine kill box if you past a said point and have not lifted? or a box to decouple the throttle cable past a point?

Seems like a good idea but not something I would want.  If you get head shake/tank slapper or into something you need to power out of,..you could be asking for more trouble with that feature.



Not sure this would be safe but visually it works...

(http://eventgames.com/interactive/Images/Products/Customs/Large/Arch.jpg)

(http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-fB2fWNVIwjA/TngcvmoQalI/AAAAAAAAA2w/CAlOHNYzvJE/s400/2011-09-18+06.58.46.jpg)
Title: Re: Fatalities in LSR
Post by: Oz Booster on August 04, 2013, 05:45:33 PM
You could also look how El Mirage do it,  thats the only limited distance track i have run, and it was not difficult to tell where the finish was .
even visible from the start line
They have weather balloons at the finish
Title: Re: Fatalities in LSR
Post by: 2fast4u2c on August 07, 2013, 09:35:04 PM
Hey all,   :D

I have been reading this thread for some time and refused to give my 2cents up to this point until today.  I'm not a PHD, I'm not an accident investigator with years of experience.  I have not come off a 2 wheeled vehicle doing LSR.   I am however building a bike that I hope will take me to my first goal level of going 250 to attain my AA license.  I feel confident I will achieve that goal.  I've always said that everything after that was pudding.  I saw Dave go. I Was the one that invited Guy Lombardi from Florida to race Maxton who died on his first pass.  I also witnessed the latest death of Gerald Deneau at Wilmington.  After hearing of Bills passing attempting to do what I want to do at Loring, I have stopped, stepped back and given some very deep thought to what I'm trying to do.  I spent yesterday in Vista, Calif. at AirTech installing modified forks on my bike where it is getting some LSR skin made for it.  I have been documenting my every move in articles so that all in the LSR and bike building world can see what I am doing and give me advice, thoughts and challenges to my build.
I've never built a high HP bike that could possibly go 300mph.
I do NOT want to die, but I will not give up on my dream of achieving my goals.  I am very interested in any tidbit of information from any source that would allow me to make the best LSR high speed bike I can.  As I have told everyone during my build, I am surrounding myself with the best I can find in each discipline of my build to give me the edge I need to be as safe as I possibly can.   I have built fire suppression into my program, the best brakes I can find, I will be dressing for the crash with every safety device at my disposal.

I will be making a new body work cage to eliminate bodywork deformation at high speeds possibly causing me to not go straight.  I will NOT be running if there is the slightest side winds causing issues with high speed runs by any rider on the course.  if I go to a race and never get the chance to run because of winds, then so be it.

I will also not be allowed to make any pass at Wilmington without the approval of both the Chief Timer, Race Director and my many friends who is always at or in my pits.  Dean, Ransom, Greg and so many others.

But... Trying to be so safe as to never take it to the edge to achieve the ultimate goal on a given run will be my decision and mine alone.  I will be successful and live and achieve my goal or not.  When all is said and done, I will have done it, My Way. (My best Sinatra voice)

I have instructed certain people that in the event of a mishap, that all data, videos (on and off board) be made available for a complete analysis no matter what happens.  I would want any info I could to help me just as all of you would want.  A complete analysis is the only way we can figure out how to make what we do more achievable and hopefully safer. 

For those of you that know me, I have been very blessed to be associated with the best in our sport.  I can only hope that this last goal doesn't do me in. 

Okay, I'm done and sorry it was more than 2 cents.

Title: Re: Fatalities in LSR
Post by: clearblue on August 07, 2013, 09:42:23 PM
Hey all,   :D

I have been reading this thread for some time and refused to give my 2cents up to this point until today.  I'm not a PHD, I'm not an accident investigator with years of experience.  I have not come off a 2 wheeled vehicle doing LSR.   I am however building a bike that I hope will take me to my first goal level of going 250 to attain my AA license.  I feel confident I will achieve that goal.  I've always said that everything after that was pudding.  I saw Dave go. I Was the one that invited Guy Lombardi from Florida to race Maxton who died on his first pass.  I also witnessed the latest death of Gerald Deneau at Wilmington.  After hearing of Bills passing attempting to do what I want to do at Loring, I have stopped, stepped back and given some very deep thought to what I'm trying to do.  I spent yesterday in Vista, Calif. at AirTech installing modified forks on my bike where it is getting some LSR skin made for it.  I have been documenting my every move in articles so that all in the LSR and bike building world can see what I am doing and give me advice, thoughts and challenges to my build.
I've never built a high HP bike that could possibly go 300mph.
I do NOT want to die, but I will not give up on my dream of achieving my goals.  I am very interested in any tidbit of information from any source that would allow me to make the best LSR high speed bike I can.  As I have told everyone during my build, I am surrounding myself with the best I can find in each discipline of my build to give me the edge I need to be as safe as I possibly can.   I have built fire suppression into my program, the best brakes I can find, I will be dressing for the crash with every safety device at my disposal.

I will be making a new body work cage to eliminate bodywork deformation at high speeds possibly causing me to not go straight.  I will NOT be running if there is the slightest side winds causing issues with high speed runs by any rider on the course.  if I go to a race and never get the chance to run because of winds, then so be it.

I will also not be allowed to make any pass at Wilmington without the approval of both the Chief Timer, Race Director and my many friends who is always at or in my pits.  Dean, Ransom, Greg and so many others.

But... Trying to be so safe as to never take it to the edge to achieve the ultimate goal on a given run will be my decision and mine alone.  I will be successful and live and achieve my goal or not.  When all is said and done, I will have done it, My Way. (My best Sinatra voice)

I have instructed certain people that in the event of a mishap, that all data, videos (on and off board) be made available for a complete analysis no matter what happens.  I would want any info I could to help me just as all of you would want.  A complete analysis is the only way we can figure out how to make what we do more achievable and hopefully safer. 

For those of you that know me, I have been very blessed to be associated with the best in our sport.  I can only hope that this last goal doesn't do me in. 

Okay, I'm done and sorry it was more than 2 cents.

Very Well Said Guy
Title: Re: Fatalities in LSR
Post by: Wolf1397 on August 07, 2013, 09:53:10 PM
I have been following your build thread closely and wish you the best of luck achieving your goals safely.
Title: Re: Fatalities in LSR
Post by: knecum on August 07, 2013, 10:05:20 PM
Bills accident IMO was caused by power wheelieing @ 280 and a cross wind that pushed him off to edge of the coarse. Unfortunately there was obstacle in his way that he couldn't avoid. Please make sure you are 100% comfortable on your bike. If you feel that something doesn't feel right no matter if its the fit of your leathers or Sun glare in your eyes to the slightest wind breeze that may make you feel not as one with the bike.  You control your bike don't let the bike control you. Know your comfort zone, there always another day!!  R.I.P. Bill!!
Title: Re: Fatalities in LSR
Post by: TrickTom1 on August 09, 2013, 08:27:28 PM
Bills accident IMO was caused by power wheelieing @ 280 and a cross wind that pushed him off to edge of the coarse. Unfortunately there was obstacle in his way that he couldn't avoid. Please make sure you are 100% comfortable on your bike. If you feel that something doesn't feel right no matter if its the fit of your leathers or Sun glare in your eyes to the slightest wind breeze that may make you feel not as one with the bike.  You control your bike don't let the bike control you. Know your comfort zone, there always another day!!  R.I.P. Bill!!
+10000000
Title: Re: Fatalities in LSR
Post by: nickelcityracing on August 10, 2013, 09:16:56 AM
Bills accident IMO was caused by power wheelieing @ 280 and a cross wind that pushed him off to edge of the coarse. Unfortunately there was obstacle in his way that he couldn't avoid. Please make sure you are 100% comfortable on your bike. If you feel that something doesn't feel right no matter if its the fit of your leathers or Sun glare in your eyes to the slightest wind breeze that may make you feel not as one with the bike.  You control your bike don't let the bike control you. Know your comfort zone, there always another day!!  R.I.P. Bill!!
+10000000
that's what we figure also Steve..... 
Title: Re: Fatalities in LSR
Post by: 2fast4u2c on August 10, 2013, 01:26:00 PM
Flashing colored lights at finish and different colored lights at about 350' past finish (approx 1 sec of travel at 238mph) would be a great help.  Not allowing high speed runs above a certain mph of wind speed (TBD).  Bill told me that he would not race if he could hear the wind.  He said that if he could hear the air rushing past his ears, he would not run.  I don't know what the wind gust speed was, but at 280, it had a mega affect on his ability to keep it straight.
I have another thought.  Knowing that the area of his viewport from where his head was located during his run was in effect a straight line view angle.  His peripheral vision had to be somewhat limited, I suppose and at 280mph, it wouldn't take but a very short amount of time to be at the side of the course.
 I am going to build a full canopy to allow full field of vision just in case that was also an issue.
I would rather continue to build my bike to the "what if" factor than disregard common sense observations.
Thank you very much Steve for your insight on what happened.  As always, a great help.
Title: Re: Fatalities in LSR
Post by: Ozonkiller on August 15, 2013, 08:45:44 PM
The discussion about seeing the finish line is a valid one.  The folks at the Mojave mile implemented that last year, putting lights at, I believe, 600' and 1000' past the finish line.  When you trip the beams they start to flash.  Very effective.

You can see them clearly from the start line.  That's an added benefit.  Sitting at the start line you see the lights flash and you know you're close to getting permission to launch. :tu:

Tom
Title: Re: Fatalities in LSR
Post by: entropy on August 15, 2013, 09:15:37 PM
I ran at Texas when they first used lights after the finish line.

my opinion...

Put flashing lines AT THE FINISH LINE and no where else. 

Like Tom says, you can see lights at the finish line from the start line.
For me, that is plenty.

For me, lights after the traps confuse the issue; simple works best for me.
Launch seeing the flashing lights way down the mile.
Run the mile using the lights at the traps to keep yourself pointed correctly.
When you pass the flashing trap lights, you no longer see any lights, GET ON THE FUKKEN BRAKES.

Just my opinion.
ksrl
Title: Re: Fatalities in LSR
Post by: zrxdean on October 02, 2013, 01:21:12 PM
So how did folks like the flashing lights at the Ohio traps last weekend? -Dean
Title: Re: Fatalities in LSR
Post by: 2fast4u2c on October 02, 2013, 02:21:25 PM
Dr. Dean,

Everyone gave two thumbs up for the lights.  thanks for all your input and help here.

Guy
Title: Re: Fatalities in LSR
Post by: osti33 on October 03, 2013, 07:57:45 AM
So how did folks like the flashing lights at the Ohio traps last weekend? -Dean

The lights worked fine for me. Very easy to see. That being said I never really had an issue seeing the finish line before the lights were added. 
Title: Re: Fatalities in LSR
Post by: 2fast4u2c on October 22, 2013, 04:59:41 PM
If our new flashing lights at the finish line saves just 1 life, just 1, then they were well worth the investment.
Title: Re: Fatalities in LSR
Post by: rustman on October 23, 2013, 10:34:42 AM
I totally agree with the lights.  There is a serious pucker when you have to make that decision whether you just passed 3/4 or the mile marker.  Ask me how I know.   :wink:
Title: Re: Fatalities in LSR
Post by: scott g on October 23, 2013, 11:32:42 AM
If our new flashing lights at the finish line saves just 1 life,
just 1, then they were well worth the investment.

I tend to agree.

My worry is that we could spend the
same money and save MORE lives......
Title: Re: Fatalities in LSR
Post by: rustman on October 23, 2013, 10:37:15 PM
If our new flashing lights at the finish line saves just 1 life,
just 1, then they were well worth the investment.

I tend to agree.

My worry is that we could spend the
same money and save MORE lives......

What are your thoughts Scott?  This is such an important topic with the losses we've seen, or even if we had seen no losses, for that matter.
Title: Re: Fatalities in LSR
Post by: scott g on October 24, 2013, 03:36:52 PM
If our new flashing lights at the finish line saves just 1 life,
just 1, then they were well worth the investment.

I tend to agree.

My worry is that we could spend the
same money and save MORE lives......

What are your thoughts Scott? 

This is such an important topic with the losses
we've seen, or even if we had seen no losses,
for that matter.


The ECTA - a private company, BTW - has "hired" Dean
and some other very well qualified folks with expertise
in the area of human perception and response.

I would like very much to read their report
before making any commitment.

My PhD work was in safety, so I have a
little background in what they will be considering.

One point of view could be to not spend
"all the money" without knowing the best response. 

If you spend all the money on something that winds
up being 6th on the list, than maybe if you had waited,
the same money could save 5 lives instead of just one......
Title: Re: Fatalities in LSR
Post by: rustman on October 24, 2013, 04:52:00 PM
Good answer.  It would be quite interesting to see their conclusions in the end.  I've got enough egghead in me to follow along.

Unrelated-  regarding best scenario reaction times and stopping distance:  I recall at least two instances of catching the tip of my glove on the lever when entering shutdown.  This might well have cost me 300 feet of shutdown margin.  I'd guess a full second was probably wasted.  Not an issue at my speeds as I've always made the turnoff at a safe speed (well, except for this one time....).
Title: Re: Fatalities in LSR
Post by: zrxdean on October 24, 2013, 07:34:00 PM

The ECTA - a private company, BTW - has "hired" Dean
and some other very well qualified folks with expertise
in the area of human perception and response.

I would like very much to read their report
before making any commitment.

My PhD work was in safety, so I have a
little background in what they will be considering.

One point of view could be to not spend
"all the money" without knowing the best response. 

If you spend all the money on something that winds
up being 6th on the list, than maybe if you had waited,
the same money could save 5 lives instead of just one......

Where do you come up with this stuff Scott?  No one has been hired, there is no "report" coming from me or anyone else.

This kind of out-of-thin-air fabrication makes me wonder about your perspective on what is "real" and what isn't. 

Dean
Title: Re: Fatalities in LSR
Post by: Got-Busa? on October 24, 2013, 08:49:29 PM

The ECTA - a private company, BTW - has "hired" Dean
and some other very well qualified folks with expertise
in the area of human perception and response.

I would like very much to read their report
before making any commitment.

My PhD work was in safety, so I have a
little background in what they will be considering.

One point of view could be to not spend
"all the money" without knowing the best response. 

If you spend all the money on something that winds
up being 6th on the list, than maybe if you had waited,
the same money could save 5 lives instead of just one......

Where do you come up with this stuff Scott?  No one has been hired, there is no "report" coming from me or anyone else.

This kind of out-of-thin-air fabrication makes me wonder about your perspective on what is "real" and what isn't. 

Dean

...and I thought I was the only one stepping in the BULL SHIT, thanks Dean for pointing that out! :hys:
Title: Re: Fatalities in LSR
Post by: scott g on October 24, 2013, 08:57:05 PM
Joe quickly responded.

(Dean Sabatinelli is also a PhD, and has been timed TWICE
at over 269 MPH at Loring on an SGR Hayabusa)

Scott,

I have asked Dean Sabatinelli for assistance in this matter and
three PH.D's have been contacted. Their specialties include noise,
annoyance and information processing, coding for visual displays,
human vision, perception, and visual performance and transportation safety.

I have contacted various manufacturers who produce safety lighting.

We have identified that at the half mile mark the track goes downhill
for not quite a half mile and then becomes level again. The red placards
get muted by the white concrete.  The track faces the southwest
and the afternoon sun becomes a factor also.

Things we have learned:

Flashing lights are the best for capturing attention.

Every onset and offset drives the visual system.
Flashing lights presented at 5-8 per second have
the best attention capture properties.

There are very few folks out there with photo-sensitive
epilepsy - about 500 people in the entire country. It comes
on at puberty, so they typically know that they know they have it.
The flash rates that trigger reactions are fast; 12-18 per second.


Joe


Dean:  Sorry to have touched a raw nerve here, I was
just going by my interpretation of what Joe emailed to me.

I somehow assumed that the "group" of you had been
"engaged" to offer opinions either together, or individually.

I put "hired" in quotes, since I did not know if:

1) Money would change hands for consultation.

2)  Professional opinions would be offered.

3)  Written reports would be made.

4) Recommendations would be made, etc.

I was just going by what I read in Joe's email to me.

If I have mis-interpreted that, it's my fault, and I apologize....

Scott
Title: Re: Fatalities in LSR
Post by: zrxdean on October 25, 2013, 09:05:51 AM
That's a lot of assumptions to cover with one set of quotation marks Scott.  I guess anything you post (even if the text is all caps, bold, and underlined) should be taken a grain of salt.  Dean
Title: Re: Fatalities in LSR
Post by: scott g on October 25, 2013, 01:25:39 PM
That's a lot of assumptions to cover with one set of quotation marks Scott.  I guess anything you post (even if the text is all caps, bold, and underlined) should be taken a grain of salt.  Dean

No Dean,

I think the best thing would be
for readers of this web site to do is to
forget everything I have written in the past,
and to ignore anything I have ever said here. 

And if you do remember something,
assume it is wrong or misleading.

Scott
Title: Re: Fatalities in LSR
Post by: rustman on October 26, 2013, 12:21:44 AM
It takes all kinds of people to constitute a community.  I personally think that we should each take everything we hear from anyone with a grain of salt.  Filter it through your brain, extract whats useful, and discard the rest.  It's time for that deep breath I mentioned earlier.  Breath in...breath out...repeat.

Please take all of that will a grain of salt my friends.  My opinion can never trump what you personally know to be true.
Title: Re: Fatalities in LSR
Post by: TrickTom1 on March 21, 2014, 05:16:46 PM
That's a lot of assumptions to cover with one set of quotation marks Scott.  I guess anything you post (even if the text is all caps, bold, and underlined) should be taken a grain of salt.  Dean

No Dean,

I think the best thing would be
for readers of this web site to do is to
forget everything I have written in the past,
and to ignore anything I have ever said here. 

And if you do remember something,
assume it is wrong or misleading.

Scott
:tu:
Title: Re: Fatalities in LSR
Post by: scott g on April 15, 2014, 02:21:55 AM
Bills accident IMO was caused by power wheelieing @ 280 and a cross wind that pushed him off to edge of the coarse. Unfortunately there was obstacle in his way that he couldn't avoid.
+10000000

I thought is was a
failure of the rear tire.........

That's what was posted
on another thread on this site.
Title: Re: Fatalities in LSR
Post by: scott g on April 15, 2014, 02:23:46 AM
That's a lot of assumptions to cover with one set of quotation marks Scott.  I guess anything you post (even if the text is all caps, bold, and underlined) should be taken a grain of salt.  Dean

No Dean,

I think the best thing would be
for readers of this web site to do is to
forget everything I have written in the past,
and to ignore anything I have ever said here. 

And if you do remember something,
assume it is wrong or misleading.

Scott
:tu:

Yup !

Just like the basic post above;
total fabrication.........
Title: Re: Fatalities in LSR
Post by: scott g on May 07, 2014, 07:09:13 AM
Ken 12R in England sadly reports that we have
again lost one of our own, Tony Foster.

Ken died following a bad crash
in the Elvington event earlier this year.

Ken tells us:

I am sorry to report that Tony Foster sadly
passed away in his sleep last night
at Leeds General Hospital following his accident at Elvington.

He was a great Guy and will be much missed
by all his friends and our thoughts lie with his family at this sad time.
RIP Big Man.
Title: Re: Fatalities in LSR
Post by: scott g on May 07, 2014, 07:14:53 AM
Ken:  We can respect that this is a hard time for you.

Is it possible that you can help us by telling us
a little more about Tony's crash ?

Things like Tony's age, riding experience
and participation in LSR events ?

Also details of his bike ?  Type, year, modifications,

And the crash:  his speed, track condition,
winds, location down the track, etc.

Cause of death:  Head injury, chest injury, etc.

Anything else we should know ?

Thanks, Scott
Title: Re: Fatalities in LSR
Post by: MJ Williams on May 09, 2014, 09:50:56 AM
Sad day for all in this small community.
Godspeed my friend.
Title: Re: Fatalities in LSR
Post by: scott g on June 05, 2014, 05:49:28 AM
Well......

It now seems that (again) guys that go over 200 MPH
for a living think that's just too fast !

http://www.motorsportmagazine.com/race/motogp-race/putting-the-brakes-on-motogp/

Do you think they have better brakes than we do ?

Do you think they have more practice stopping from 200 MPH than we do ?

Even the WORLD CHAMPION crashes at over 200 mph by not braking correctly.

How can we poor souls hope to get it right.....
Title: Re: Fatalities in LSR
Post by: Ken 12r on June 17, 2014, 10:07:01 AM
Ken:  We can respect that this is a hard time for you.

Is it possible that you can help us by telling us
a little more about Tony's crash ?

Things like Tony's age, riding experience
and participation in LSR events ?

Also details of his bike ?  Type, year, modifications,

And the crash:  his speed, track condition,
winds, location down the track, etc.

Cause of death:  Head injury, chest injury, etc.

Anything else we should know ?

Thanks, Scott

There is not a lot to say really and the incident is still under investigation by the police but sadly Tony was ejected by his Turbo Busa when it failed initially to shift gear  at around 80 mph and landed badly on his head causing serious brain trauma from which he did not recover.
Title: Re: Fatalities in LSR
Post by: 2fast4u2c on June 17, 2014, 11:06:56 AM
Ken:  We can respect that this is a hard time for you.

Is it possible that you can help us by telling us
a little more about Tony's crash ?

Things like Tony's age, riding experience
and participation in LSR events ?

Also details of his bike ?  Type, year, modifications,

And the crash:  his speed, track condition,
winds, location down the track, etc.

Cause of death:  Head injury, chest injury, etc.

Anything else we should know ?

Thanks, Scott

There is not a lot to say really and the incident is still under investigation by the police but sadly Tony was ejected by his Turbo Busa when it failed initially to shift gear  at around 80 mph and landed badly on his head causing serious brain trauma from which he did not recover.


I have been an advocate of the Leatt Neck Cervical protector for years now. I wonder if this is another example of how it might have saved Tony's life had he been wearing one? 

Guy
Title: Re: Fatalities in LSR
Post by: scott g on June 17, 2014, 11:56:28 AM

There is not a lot to say really and the incident is still under investigation by the police but sadly Tony was ejected by his Turbo Busa when it failed initially to shift gear  at around 80 mph and landed badly on his head causing serious brain trauma from which he did not recover.

This is a big shame to hear !

I suspect that even the best helmet
could not prevent brain damage when a
500 pound bike is dropped on the head.

This is somewhat like the crash that killed
Marco Simonchelli in a MotoGP race,
and that was never fully explained.

Our prayers and thoughts again
go out to you, the folks at the race,
and to the family.

Scott
Title: Re: Fatalities in LSR
Post by: scott g on November 11, 2014, 10:37:29 AM
Well, it looks like the 2014 season is essentially wrapped up, unless
Finland or Dubai has an unannounced meet coming up.

And, once again, motorcycle pavement LSR proves to be the
most dangerous motorsport in the world, with Tony Foster's
on-track death in England this year.

Maybe we were lucky that the Beeville track offered no serious accidents,
but that might have been from essentially no high speeds obtained
(Brenda excepted, of course).

Actually, no really high speeds anywhere......
Maybe that helps ?

Likewise, a surprising "zero-deaths" from the ECTA.

Seems like Beeville is the most dangerous track,
and the ECTA the mostly deadly organization

On pavement, at least one rider killed
every year for how many years now ?

Nine, Ten ?

An still- NO DEATHS of sit-on bikers at Bonneville,
after almost 70 years......

Title: Re: Fatalities in LSR
Post by: 2fast4u2c on November 11, 2014, 12:02:29 PM
Scott,

Your suggestion that the ECTA has a death a year is completely baseless and false. To assert that we are the Death organization is also biased and I'm not sure why you of all people would say this.
Yes, racing on a concrete surface with a totally different abrasion factor than the salt is indeed true. And coming off a bike in the concrete no matter where you race is also going to be more damaging than sliding on a salt surface that acts like a shuffleboard surface. But your assertation that the ECTA alone is Death organization is inflammatory and undeserved. You are implying something and I'm not sure what you're trying to get across.
Yes, the ECTA sends more bikes down a concrete runway over the course of 5 events than other organization in the world. So it stands to reason that we would have a higher per rider event than any other sanctioned group in the world. El mirage has a similar surface and it also sees a rider slide more than on a concrete surface.

Your post is taken with disdain by me and I ask that you clarify and share your reasons for such language.

Respectfully,

Guy
Title: Re: Fatalities in LSR
Post by: scott g on November 11, 2014, 12:38:17 PM
Well Guy, you may have a point here.

1)  What I actually posted was:

On pavement, at least one rider killed
every year for how many years now ?


Please note that the reference was to pavement LSR
as a whole, and NOT the ECTA specifically.

2)  Please also note that it was NOT me that
called the ECTA the DEATH ORGANIZATION. 

However, we can both agree that the ECTA has allowed more
deaths than any other LSR organization, salt, dirt, concrete or asphalt.

Not a reputation to be desired, but nonetheless the facts of the matter.

Interesting that Maxton ran for more than ten (10) years before the
first death, and then several more happened in quick succession,
and the bad "happenings" followed the organization to Ohio.

Strange perhaps that ECTA founder, the beloved John Becket
never was race director for a fatality at Maxton,
and then he himself dies in a racing crash at Bonneville.

So, most of the serious and fatal crashes happened in the last
six or so years under new administration.....

3) Not far behind the ECTA, with a "problem total" per year of operation
is the Texas Mile at Beeville.  They have had plenty of "Bad Happenings,"
and at a much higher RATE than any other track.

From my inquiries into Karl's, Bills, and Billy's accidents,
I am surprised that the City of Beeville sanctions
racing there - at least for bikes.

Must be a powerful insurance lobby.....

4)  Even Loring, which has to be the best paved track in the business,
has now had a fatality, and we all now know why.

Pavement is unforgiving, and the results are shattering for all involved.

Understanding and accepting the risk is important.

Reducing the risk is paramount !
Title: Re: Fatalities in LSR
Post by: scott g on November 11, 2014, 12:54:19 PM
Scott,


Yes, the ECTA sends more bikes down a concrete runway over the course of 5 events
 than other organization in the world. So it stands to reason that we would have a higher
per rider event than any other sanctioned group in the world. El mirage has a similar
surface and it also sees a rider slide more than on a concrete surface.


Respectfully,

Guy

Actually Guy,

1)  I believe that Ohio has only 4 meets per year,
while the "Old Maxton"had six meets per year.

2)  Texas puts vehicles down the track at a stupendous rate. 

Sometimes at 1200 vehicles per meet, when the ECTA sends
less than 400 through the traps.  So, in two meets, the Texas Mile
has more starts in 2 meets, that the ECTA has in a full season.
Title: Re: Fatalities in LSR
Post by: scott g on November 11, 2014, 01:03:24 PM
Scott,

Your post is taken with disdain by me and I ask that
you clarify and share your reasons for such language.

Respectfully,

Guy

Let me know if we are getting more clear on this, Guy.

It is not my intention to denigrate or "slam" any particular organization,
or their representatives, but to make an assessment of danger

(Notice I did NOT say "blame)

Even when an organization has "bad luck" they receive attention if only
to determine whether is is actually "bad luck", or bad operating procedures.

We know that Beeville - at least in the past - had some horrible and
truly dangerous procedures, and I am still surprised that law suits
did not evolve from the injuries - which turned out to be pretty expensive.
Title: Re: Fatalities in LSR
Post by: 2fast4u2c on November 11, 2014, 04:15:25 PM
Seems like Beeville is the most dangerous track,
and the ECTA the mostly deadly organization

On pavement, at least one rider killed
every year for how many years now ?

Nine, Ten ?



Scott, there has been 3 deaths in the 12 years I have been coming to ECTA.  2 at Maxton and 1 at Wilmington out of how many thousands of motorcycle passes?  Really Scott.  One of the major reasons for no deaths at B'ville is the surface.  How many have fallen or crashed at B'ville? or El Mirage?

However, we can both agree that the ECTA has allowed more
deaths than any other LSR organization, salt, dirt, concrete or asphalt.


Allowed?  Your motives for this post seems far beyond just posting factual information.  You have an agenda and I'm sad to read this from you who I have always respected for your matter of fact posts.  This is not a matter of fact post.

We sent on the average of over 500-700 runs a meet (Per Joe Timney) at each and every meet.  The last meet was around the 400 mark due to unforeseen oil downs and run off from the track.  So your facts are incorrect.  Your implications are hazy at best.

Your post serves no purpose than to insinuate that the "New Management Allows Accidents" is preposterous. 

Since I consider myself part of the "New Mgmt" as a volunteer, I take a personal offense to this post.  I'm not sure where you were trying to take this post or what your insinuations were meant to say, but they are not like you to stray from hard facts.

The number of major fatality events that have occurred at the ECTA, and you will agree it is due to the new higher speeds that these motorcycles are now capable of attaining.  It wasn't until the advent of the Hayabusa did we really see the average joe rider have the ability to break 200mph.  Now its common practice and 220's and 230's coming easier and easier.  So if you are charting a graph that relates speed to deaths, than your graph will take on a whole new meaning when the electrics finally get it together.

My rant is finished.  I still feel you are one of the finest accident investigators I've met and your knowledge of our sport is above and beyond.
And I still consider myself your friend.

Guy
Title: Re: Fatalities in LSR
Post by: scott g on November 14, 2014, 03:47:47 PM
Recent information from the world of MotoGP.

1)  A total of 981 crashes across all three
classes, Moto1. Moto2 and MotoGP. 

(Includes practice.)

2) EVERY rider in MotoGP crashed
AT LEAST one time over the season.

3) 216 total crashes in MotoGP, demonstrably
the classes with the most proficient riders in
the pavement world. 

4) With something like 30-35 riders in MotoGP,
that's about 7 crashes PER RIDER for the season.

5) NO fatalities.

6) NO serious injuries. (Like, paralysis or
career injuries).

What do they know that motorcycle LSR doesn't know ?
Title: Re: Fatalities in LSR
Post by: fvance on November 14, 2014, 05:11:03 PM
Having watched some motogp, not a big fan, I would think a high percentage of crashes are low side washout and into a sand pit. Most of our crashes are pretty high speed and usually not low siders.  A lot of flopping around. Jason Mcvickers and I were very lucky and walked away from very high speed crashes :mrgreen:
Title: Re: Fatalities in LSR
Post by: RansomT on November 14, 2014, 06:27:27 PM
They know how to crash.
Title: Re: Fatalities in LSR
Post by: scott g on November 14, 2014, 11:22:33 PM
They know how to crash.

I think Ransom is more correct
than we would like to admit.

1)  Marquez went down at over 200 MPH,
with no visible effect on him,  and
was soon back on track with his spare bike.

Marquez crashes about 10-12 times per season.

2)  One fatal crash at Beeville was reported in the
neighborhood of 60-80 mph, while going straight
down the track, by himself....

3) The fatal crash at Ohio was at some reduced speed,
but the rider never slowed (substantially) all the way
through the shut-down area, and across the grass to
the far steel barrier.

4) One can see many MotoGP riders "throwing a leg"
to prevent being trapped by a high-side by the bike.

5)  Surely, most of us do NOT have as
much practice crashing as the MotoGP pro's.

6)  If we were told to "lay it down to avoid a crash...."
How many of us have useful experience
in "Laying it down " deliberately ?
Title: Re: Fatalities in LSR
Post by: scott g on November 14, 2014, 11:24:14 PM

 Jason Mcvickers and I were very lucky
and walked away from very high speed crashes :mrgreen:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QImtEKiicus
Title: Re: Fatalities in LSR
Post by: speedduck on November 15, 2014, 10:09:30 AM
What about the fact that moto-gp riders are mostly underweight midgets ? What is the average size and weight for LSR rider ? Your weight works against you when you are flying in the air, and hitting ground.
Title: Re: Fatalities in LSR
Post by: SEJ on November 20, 2014, 02:33:01 PM
Not to mention that they are world class athletes.
They're overall fitness is second to none...

Do any of you know that they have functioning airbags in their leathers? You bet your ass that they do! The best safety gear in the world. It all trickles down from them to us.
Title: Re: Fatalities in LSR
Post by: SEJ on November 21, 2014, 11:48:01 AM


1)  Marquez went down at over 200 MPH,
with no visible effect on him,  and
was soon back on track with his spare bike.

Marquez crashes about 10-12 times per season.




And for what time period was Marquez actually on paved surface??? Most road race accidents are not at high speeds and usually happen in corners at much lower speeds. You hit the pavement and are usually off the track into the grass or gravel traps instantly.
Ask me how I know?  :lol: What about the riders average age in MotoGp??? No need to delve into that, you get my point.

I've had two bad road racing accidents and I was 39 when the first one occured...I would much rather crash on a road race track than the racing surface of Wilmington!!! Especially over 200 mph!!! That surface is SCARY! If you were lucky, you might end up in the grass. But the odds are you would NOT...
Title: Re: Fatalities in LSR
Post by: HOS on November 23, 2014, 03:50:54 AM
I don't think there is much comparison to be drawn between pro GP riders and amateur top speed racers tbh.

They are young, lightweight, ultra fit, properly nourished and wear massively expensive custom made safety gear. They are trained in what do do in an off because they do it all the time. They live and breath racing all the time not just race at one or two annual events.

Please, let's not argue about casualties? It's no good to see.
Title: Re: Fatalities in LSR
Post by: scott g on December 15, 2014, 11:22:27 PM


Please, let's not argue about casualties?

It's no good to see.



Not good to see arguments......?

Maybe better to just see
the fatalities with no discussion ?
Title: Re: Fatalities in LSR
Post by: 2fast4u2c on January 26, 2015, 07:11:06 AM
Discussion is a must.  For those of you watching Scott and I banter, we both want the same goals out of our discussions.  No accidents, but in our sport, that would be a stretch.  We both agree on 99% of LSR fatality statistics and facts.  Because Motorcycle pavement LSR is so inherently dangerous, we all must do whatever we can to always look at facts, not fiction or hearsay and analyze them so that future racers can be safer.  discussion is a must.
One day you might all be talking about me and how I crashed (sure hope not) and I would expect you all to analyze all the facts so that whatever information you could gleam would maybe help another racer.  This is one of the reasons I am so open about my build and program.  No secrets, nothing to hide.  If something happens, I want everything accessible for investigative purposes.  I data log every run so the SD chip needs to be recovered.  I will have a camera on board, it also needs To be recovered.  Anyone taking video needs to surrender the video for analysis.
Discussion is a must.

But if I do go, I hope it is spectacular with parts flying and the YouTube goes viral so that for years to come people can see how dangerous our sport is.  Oh, and go ooooh and ahhhh!
Title: Re: Fatalities in LSR
Post by: fvance on January 26, 2015, 12:41:48 PM
So Guy when are you going to be ready to make your first run??
Title: Re: Fatalities in LSR
Post by: 2fast4u2c on January 27, 2015, 06:37:42 AM
We take her out in May for some rookie passes and slow speed trials.  just need to learn her and handling.  make sure she shifts and brakes.  Work out any bugs this summer.
Title: Re: Fatalities in LSR
Post by: entropy on January 27, 2015, 06:55:07 AM
We take her out in May for some rookie passes and slow speed trials.  just need to learn her and handling.  make sure she shifts and brakes.  Work out any bugs this summer.
Guy,
Since yours is an "open build",  could you share what logging system do you have and what channels are you capturing?
3-axis accelerometer?
suspension travel F&R?
multifunction GPS?
F&R-facing cameras?

I only ask bc Bill Warner was my go-to guy for my AIMs system and we talked alot about his logging and analysis processes.  He spent a shitload of time developing his chassis/suspension config before he was able to get max acceleration.
karl
Title: Re: Fatalities in LSR
Post by: 2fast4u2c on January 27, 2015, 07:48:48 AM
Karl, you have PM
Title: Re: Fatalities in LSR
Post by: speedduck on January 27, 2015, 10:22:22 AM

I only ask bc Bill Warner was my go-to guy for my AIMs system and we talked alot about his logging and analysis processes.  He spent a shitload of time developing his chassis/suspension config before he was able to get max acceleration.
karl
Can you tell some example where could one go wrong adjusting hi-power land speed bike chassis ? Too long ?
Title: Re: Fatalities in LSR
Post by: entropy on January 27, 2015, 11:06:20 AM

I only ask bc Bill Warner was my go-to guy for my AIMs system and we talked alot about his logging and analysis processes.  He spent a shitload of time developing his chassis/suspension config before he was able to get max acceleration.
karl
Can you tell some example where could one go wrong adjusting hi-power land speed bike chassis ? Too long ?

Mika,
I guess i could think of a possibility or 2 of incorrect chassis/body set up...

swing arm too long - excessive spin
swing arm too short - excessive wheelies
fork caster angle wrong
Swing arm axle too low
linear weight distribution wrong
vertical weight distribution wrong
Center of gravity behind center of pressure
Too much or not enough aerodynamic lift on F wheel
F compression set wrong
F rebound set wrong
R compression set wrong
R rebound set wrong
wheels misaligned
frame misaligned
tire pressures set wrong

From what I saw, Bill spent as much (or more) time on chassis config/tuning as he did on making reliable hp.

IMO achieving 311mph in 1.5 mile is about:
reliable/predictable high power

AND must have
perfect chassis set up

AND must have
perfect riding technique.

karl
Title: Re: Fatalities in LSR
Post by: speedduck on January 27, 2015, 11:29:11 AM
Thanks Karl, there is lot`s of variables to think about for amateur land speeder. That`s why i relied on few factory solutions, bodywork, just a little longer, not too low, and of course rear shock bought from acknowledged racer  :D
Result is, it`s trying to wheelie when boost kicks in, but just only floats a little, no problems from side winds.
Title: Re: Fatalities in LSR
Post by: entropy on January 27, 2015, 11:42:00 AM
hey Mika,
i know NOTHING about the really high speed stuff, but pitted with Bill a bunch of times, and worked my own low speed stuff out with help from all kinds of helpful people.
Karl
Title: Re: Fatalities in LSR
Post by: speedduck on January 27, 2015, 11:54:56 AM
High speed or low speed, i have to give credit for anyone who has the patience to analyze data and keep testing, because i don`t have such qualities  :(
Title: Re: Fatalities in LSR
Post by: scott g on January 29, 2015, 08:44:50 AM
On the "things to check" list, you might add:

1)  Frame bent or twisted

(@ 200 mph, even 1mm out of line can be a problem)

2)  Steering bearings knotchy, loose, dry,  or worn.

3)  triple clamps loose, twisted or bent.

4)  Fork legs bent

5) Fork legs have equal oil levels.

6) Front axle straight.

7) Wheel bearings good and well lubricated

eight)  Swing arm pivot axle straight and properly tightened.

9)   Swing arm pivot axle bearings good and well lubricated

10)  Swing arm pivot axle true to the steering head.

11) Swing arm straight and true

12)  Rear axle straight and true, properly tightened.

13)  Rear wheel bearings good and properly lubricated.

14)  BOTH wheels have proper distance tube
between the bearings, and properly installed.

Based on my 40 years of Bonneville experiences, I can
tell you EVERY ONE of the above can be a problem !
Title: Re: Fatalities in LSR
Post by: entropy on January 29, 2015, 09:15:38 AM
High speed or low speed, i have to give credit for anyone who has the patience to analyze data and keep testing, because i don`t have such qualities  :(

Mika,
You are doing most ALL that stuff, but being guided by your experience rather than a list.  The large number of safe passes you have made proves it.
Some of that stuff might make very little difference to handling at moderate speeds but may prove 110% deadly at Bill Warner speeds.

My point is that in order to get to Bill Warner speeds, the bike MUST be at the traction/wheelie balance point, maximum acceleration ALL THE WAY DOWN THE TRACK.  Many of you guys have heard Bill leave the line, rear tire screeching/squealing all thru 1st, not really spinning but slipping, bike crossed up just a bit.  It gave me chills.

IMO this takes exactly the right chassis set up and the very highest level of riding skills.  Bill used his logs to tune his chassis set up.  His speeds were not a result of just big balls + big hp.
Title: Re: Fatalities in LSR
Post by: 2fast4u2c on January 29, 2015, 10:37:04 AM
We take her out in May for some rookie passes and slow speed trials.  just need to learn her and handling.  make sure she shifts and brakes.  Work out any bugs this summer.
Guy,
Since yours is an "open build",  could you share what logging system do you have and what channels are you capturing?
3-axis accelerometer?
suspension travel F&R?
multifunction GPS?
F&R-facing cameras?

I only ask bc Bill Warner was my go-to guy for my AIMs system and we talked alot about his logging and analysis processes.  He spent a shitload of time developing his chassis/suspension config before he was able to get max acceleration.
karl

Karl, I feel the wind on my helmet for speed and count the dashed lines on the runway for distance.  If my ass slides back I'm really pulling hard.  If I fly in the air, I did something wrong.
Title: Re: Fatalities in LSR
Post by: entropy on January 29, 2015, 10:43:18 AM

Karl, I feel the wind on my helmet for speed and count the dashed lines on the runway for distance.  If my ass slides back I'm really pulling hard.  If I fly in the air, I did something wrong.
[/quote]

Bahahahahahahahahahahahahaha, that's a start.
Title: Re: Fatalities in LSR
Post by: scott g on March 30, 2015, 02:34:44 PM
If I fly in the air, I did something wrong.

Guy has a sense of humor I do like.

Good luck @ Ohio !
Title: Re: Fatalities in LSR
Post by: 2fast4u2c on March 31, 2015, 06:10:37 AM
Yeah, I'm a real jokester. We'll see how much laughing I do when I'm flying like Superman.
Title: Re: Fatalities in LSR
Post by: Mike-Nightrider on March 31, 2015, 06:45:35 AM
We dont wanna see you flying Guy. Please try to stay with the wheels on the ground if possible  :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen:
Title: Re: Fatalities in LSR
Post by: 2fast4u2c on March 31, 2015, 05:04:42 PM
I finally got the beast running, now when I rev it up, I about pee my pants it sounds so awesome.  Bodywork is out for paint and I'm finalizing misc wiring and crap.
Title: Re: Fatalities in LSR
Post by: scott g on March 31, 2015, 07:01:35 PM
Yeah, I'm a real jokester. We'll see how much laughing I do when I'm flying like Superman.

Nice visual......

Gut on his bike,
Flying in to fight crime,
Big red "S" on his chest........
Title: Re: Fatalities in LSR
Post by: Mike-Nightrider on April 01, 2015, 01:50:31 AM
I finally got the beast running, now when I rev it up, I about pee my pants it sounds so awesome.  Bodywork is out for paint and I'm finalizing misc wiring and crap.
Sound good  :tu:  Are you riding with gas or methanol?
Title: Re: Fatalities in LSR
Post by: 2fast4u2c on April 01, 2015, 05:33:23 AM
We're going to start our program off with Gas.  Easier tuning and maintenance for the start up of our program until higher HP is necessary, at least that's my thought process.  Of course, I've never been known to have good thoughts.
Title: Re: Fatalities in LSR
Post by: TrickTom1 on July 09, 2015, 09:08:29 PM
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bill_Warner_(motorcycle_racer)

Really close to 2 years have gone by.  I know that myself and I'm sure others still think about and miss him. What a pioneer he was and a competitor.

Title: Re: Fatalities in LSR
Post by: RZ350 on July 20, 2015, 09:48:16 PM
Rear wheel bearings will always be something I keep an eye on.....

The pic at the starting line may have been when things started going bad with that bearing, another 3/16" of inch outward bearing movement would have left the rear wheel somewhat unstable to say the least....
Title: Re: Fatalities in LSR
Post by: RansomT on July 26, 2015, 09:53:07 AM
Which bearing is that? (type)
Title: Re: Fatalities in LSR
Post by: RZ350 on July 26, 2015, 03:01:04 PM
That was the rear wheel bearing on the brake disc side, 2001 Hayabusa. There was some question if the inner spacer was left out when the tire was shaved which may have damaged the bearing...
Title: Re: Fatalities in LSR
Post by: RZ350 on July 26, 2015, 03:03:44 PM
... It was a ball bearing...
Title: Re: Fatalities in LSR
Post by: RansomT on July 26, 2015, 03:48:50 PM
That was the rear wheel bearing on the brake disc side, 2001 Hayabusa. There was some question if the inner spacer was left out when the tire was shaved which may have damaged the bearing...

If that spacer was left out, then the rear wheel won't turn by hand.  The rear caliper becomes out of line and locks the rotor.
Title: Re: Fatalities in LSR
Post by: RZ350 on July 26, 2015, 04:16:45 PM
no, I meant the spacer left out when the tire was shaved, the spacer was in when it was on the bike but there was a question if somehow it got taken out and the bearings taken out or put back in etc.
Title: Re: Fatalities in LSR
Post by: RZ350 on July 26, 2015, 04:19:18 PM
... The thought was the bearing was sideloaded when
mounted on the centers when the wheel was shaved, I wasn't there to verify any of this I was just the rider...
Title: Re: Fatalities in LSR
Post by: Wolf on July 26, 2015, 04:53:07 PM
Very dangerous situation. Did the rider manage to keep it upright?
Title: Re: Fatalities in LSR
Post by: RZ350 on July 26, 2015, 06:18:10 PM
double post, sorry!
Title: Re: Fatalities in LSR
Post by: RZ350 on July 26, 2015, 06:23:18 PM
yes, I was riding it! It was a record run, it wouldn't pull over 235, felt like it was trying to steer itself off the track, like a heavy side wind or something.

I couldn't figure out why it wouldnt pull over 235 until I got back to impound, and saw the bearing race sticking out of the side of the rim! It scared the hell out of me... :-)
Title: Re: Fatalities in LSR
Post by: Wolf on July 26, 2015, 09:01:39 PM
Wow. The rear wheel could have locked up completely. Very scary to have that happen at those speeds. Glad you made it.
Title: Re: Fatalities in LSR
Post by: scott g on July 30, 2015, 03:21:13 PM
Rear wheel bearings will always be something I keep an eye on.....

The pic at the starting line may have been when things started going bad with that bearing, another 3/16" of inch outward bearing movement would have left the rear wheel somewhat unstable to say the least....

I have some guns that are NOT that deep a blue.......
Title: Re: Fatalities in LSR
Post by: scott g on May 05, 2016, 02:49:27 PM
   

    Guy Caputo's crash, and Shane Stubb's "moment"
    last weekend at the Wilmington Mile brings us
    back to the vagaries of "the wind.".......

    Some motorcycles look very good in the wind tunnel:

    Stable, smooth and efficient.
    Most are less so.

    Quartering winds are a problem.

    Bikes can (as we all know) be
    "blown off course" by a strong side wind.

    A wind tunnel that can pivot the bike on the
    vertical axis will allow assessment of
    the bikes susceptibility to "yaw."

    As part of motorcycle dynamics, "yaw" is usually
    accompanied by "roll" - the bike also leans to one side.

    The Caputo bike and the Hass bike both have (had)
    extensive "flat bottoms." These go right from the
    front to the back, and are pretty wide.

    In cars, this flat bottom can be used for significant "grounds effects,"
    which allow high down-force, and "keep the car on the ground."
    Some race cars have more "down force" than the weight of the car.
    That means that they could literally drive upside down !

    How does that work out with bikes ?

*                       *                            *                        *

(Warner Riley reminds me:

SG:  I have always thought flat bottoms were bad and even
though I do not have a bike in the speed range of the fast metric bikes,
I would never run a flat bottom fairing.  There are many reasons which
you have already discussed, but when the MC gets a little out going of
"straight ahead", it begins to present a plainer surface to the wind. 

Not Good. 

I would always make the bottom of the fairing rounded. 
The fellow who died at (Bonneville) a number of years ago
with a lay down, small wheeled bike, had a flat bottom. 

He got sideways due to a failed rear tire and as the bike
presented itself to the oncoming air, the whole
bike took flight with a deadly outcome.  Warner)

Digression:  Warner Riley was the first Harley over 200 mph.
He also spent 40 years investigating motorcycle accidents and
testifying about that in courts of law. 

He was at Loring when Bill had "The Crash." 

I was the first "conventional motorcycle " over 200 mph,
and also made my living for 40 years as a motorcycle
Traffic Homocide investigator and expert witness)

*                   *                *               *              *
    The Caputo and Hass bikes are also pretty tall, and both have
    (had) a lot of "vertical side area" that is part of the "flat bottom" design.

    The "vertical side area" makes the bike much more susceptible
    to side winds - and that results in more yaw and roll.

    When the bike rolls (leans), the flat bottom is higher on one side than the other.

    That happens with race cars too, but there is a significant difference:
    The car might be 5 feet wide, and might tilt one inch, a 1- 60 ratio.

    The bike, on the other hand, might be
    20 inches wide and "tilt" two inches, or a 1-10 ratio

    Cars are very careful about how they allow air to "spill out"
    from underneath, since they do not not want more down force
    on one side than the other, and thus upset the suspension.

    "Skirts" and tunnels are used to assist control of the air.

    The bikes we are talking about here have no skirts or tunnels,
    and so very little control of "spillage."

    If these (potentially 300 mph) bikes are generating significant downforce,
    and that is lost - suddenly - in a gust of side wind, what happens to
    the downforce and the bike stability ?

    Does the sudden loss of downforce also
    suddenly "lift" the bike off it's tires ?

    Does (because of the roll) the bike get "thrown sideways ?

    EVERY very-fast sit-on LSR bike (with a fairing)
    so far has had a round bottom.

    Is there a reason for that ?



       
Title: Re: Fatalities in LSR
Post by: Coryonbusa on May 05, 2016, 08:43:50 PM
Great point. Never thought of that.
Title: Re: Fatalities in LSR
Post by: scott g on May 05, 2016, 09:41:38 PM
Great point.

Never thought of that.

It's what you DON'T know
that you DON'T know that
gets you in the end.....!...
Title: Re: Fatalities in LSR
Post by: Coryonbusa on May 06, 2016, 05:15:10 AM
So true.
Title: Re: Fatalities in LSR
Post by: FlaminRoo on May 08, 2016, 01:38:34 AM
Do these "Flat Bottom" bikes have suspenshion ??, I'm thinking that with the irreglarties(spelling) in the tarmac tracks this would cause "pulseing" which would mitigate any advantage of precieved suction,,,
Title: Re: Fatalities in LSR
Post by: scott g on June 05, 2016, 08:13:41 PM
On Friday, Luis Salom died in Spain in a Moto2 Grand Prix race.

Yes, this is an LSR thread, but the Salom tragedy speaks to us, too.......

This is NOT a particularly good video, but at present, it is all we have.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a_a9BLzTw_U

Leading up to the high-speed crash, there was no reported contact
with other riders,  unusual situations that we know of yet, and the
crash happened on a straight portion of the track.

There is speculation that Salom - a highly experienced rider at the world
level in roadracing, just "got a little too much front brake," and the front
end "washed out from under him."

The video shows the bike sliding, mostly on it's side,
in a straight line down the straightaway and into the "AIR-FENCE"

The Bike hits (and deflates) the air fence,
and rebounds back toward Salom.

Salom then slides straight ahead (maybe head first)
into the bike and then the air fence, now deflated.

Shown is the bike rising into the air pushed by the force of Salom's impact.

The cause of death was Salom's impact(s).

The cause of the crash has as yet not been determined.

So, what is the connection to LSR ?

Well, most LSR is trying to attain high speeds on straightaway tracks,
and then safely slowing to suitable reduced speeds.

So, what's hard about that ?

Well, it was a contributing factor to the two deaths at Maxton,
at least one death at Wilmington, and two almost-fatal crashes at Beeville.

That is a big deal !

Imagine that for some reason a rider, at a not-unusual speed of 230 MPH
"misses" the finish line at Wilmington, and hits the brakes too late.  The rider
in a little bit of a panic, gets a little too much front brake,
and puts the bike - and himself -  down.

The rider now has NO control over EITHER his speed or his direction.

Suppose that there are some BIG pieces airfield equipment in the
run off area at Wilmington, and the rider - like Salom - rams head first
into those posts.

(Use Google Earth , look for Wilmington OH Airpark, and inspect the shut-down area....)

Even at very slow speeds, the momentum of the body
"pushes" the head harder into the impact.

Is death does not come instantly,
it is easy to imagine a broken spinal nerve
in the cervical (neck) area; thus leading
to partial or total paralysis.

So yes, Salom speaks to us, too !

Title: Re: Fatalities in LSR
Post by: scott g on June 06, 2016, 10:39:45 AM
We now, on the Monday following the
Spanish MotoGP race, have more useful information.

The race team of Salom was able to recover the data from the crashed bike,
and provide a surprisingly detailed understanding of the circumstances of the crash. 

A big part of that understanding was from the "where am I" feature of the data,
that allows the bike to "know" where it is on the track. Much of the same information
would have been available from a bystander taking HD films of the incident,
but is such a film has been made, it has not turned up.


"During the course of the FP2, Luis Salom faced his first laps
and makes his best lap (1’48.608) before making his first pit stop
to change the rear tire of the bike.

After that, Salom comes back on the track and during that same
out of the pits lap he suffers the accident. In that lap, Luis arrived
to the turn 12 braking reference point 6 km/h slower than his fastest lap,
according to the telemetry that was because a
lower acceleration at the exit of turn 11.

Due to that reduced speed, Luis operated the brakes 9 meters
later to maintain a proper corner speed at the turn 12.

At the entry of the corner there is an irregularity
on the asphalt known by all the riders (bump).

The delay of the braking instant made Luis to maintain
the brakes operated running over that asphalt irregularity,
as opposed the previous laps where he already had released
the brakes on that spot.

All of that added to an even speed than his best lap of the FP2
produced a stress on the front tire and a grip lost on
the irregularity of the asphalt.

That grip lost produced the crash
with the tragic outcome that we all know."



The team report is available at:
https://motomatters.com/press_release/2016/06/06/sag_team_press_release_telemetry.html


Title: Re: Fatalities in LSR
Post by: scott g on June 06, 2016, 10:44:25 AM

For those of us who follow LSR accidents, Salom's crash is remarkably
like the crashes of Karl Gunter and Bill Warner at Beeville TX,
where both men rode superbly, but almost died while crashing under braking. 

You will remember that Karl and Bill began their individual crashes
within a few feet of each other, while approaching
the shut-down area from far different speeds.

Same problem.
Same result.

This highlights that, as with
most of the fatal accidents in LSR,
the problem is not the going fast,
it is the slowing down that may kill.

Title: Re: Fatalities in LSR
Post by: scott g on June 06, 2016, 11:25:33 AM
A rider came to me and asked about “stopping” at Wilmington.

Of all the LSR tracks in the USA, Wilmington is perhaps
the most problematic, due is parts to the uneven racing surface,
the lack of shut-down, and the solid objects in the run-off area.

So the question was a good one, and very instructive !

From the Wilmington start line to the end
of the paved runway is about 8600 feet.

Take away 5,280 for the measured mile,
and that leaves 3,320 feet to brake
before leaving the runway.

How about stopping from 275 mph ?

A skilled roadracer, like Shane Stubbs could
probably decelerate at a rate of 1.1g over that distance,
but with no “margin of error.”

A decal of 1.1 from 275 mph is a “brake to stop”
distance of about 2300 feet.

SAFE, by almost 1,000 feet……………

HOWEVER:


Let’s assume that even a skilled rider like Shane
can’t get to that full 1.1g for about 1.5 seconds after
the finish line BECAUSE, he has to “transition”
from hard acceleration to hard deceleration,
AND use his skill (which takes time) to
GRADUALLY come up on “full braking.”

1.5 seconds is about 600 feet at 275 mph.

That 1.5 seconds has reduced that “safe distance”
to only about 400 feet, which goes by mighty fast at 200 mph.

Let’s also assume that maybe Shane has a “moment”
that causes him to have to “release” the brakes for
maybe 1.5 seconds, just as he begins his hard deceleration. 

At 275 mph that distance is again about 600 feet.

Let’s also assume that Shane, with at least part of his
mind on his growing family, decided to not use a “full panic”
stopping mode, and decelerated at “only” 1.0g

(Which, incidentally, is far more than most
untrained riders EVER achieve)

Shane’s braking distance is now extended from
about 2,300 feet to more than 2,500 feet.

Suddenly, Shane has run out of room, having “consumed”
1,200 feet with “transitioning,” and 2,500 feet braking.

Needing 3,700 feet to stop, and having only 3,300 to do
it, Shane runs off the end of the track 400 feet short
of a stop at about 110 mph.

It has happened there.

Several people lived,
at least one survived the crash,
and one died hitting
an obstruction in shutdown.

Skill in STOPPING is again the answer......
Title: Re: Fatalities in LSR
Post by: scott g on June 14, 2016, 05:22:02 PM
Although I have touched on it other places,
this might be a good time and place
to review fairings and speed.

http://i31.photobucket.com/albums/c388/tricktom1/207281_10150155528869228_556669227_6427018_1330733_n.jpg

This is the fairing mounted to a turbo Hayabusa
that ran at Mojave a few years ago, but had an unfortunate crash,
and did not record a particularly high speed. 

The cause of the crash was never conclusively announced.

One suspects that of all the "sit-on" turbo Hayabusas running,
this fairing may have had the lowest CdA (air resistance)
and thus the highest speed potential with the same horsepower as other bikes:

The fairing has a good aerodynamic design in terms
of "parting" the air, and "bringing it back together."

The bike is low (NOT tall), and so is less prone to upset by side winds.

The bike is low to the ground, also helping with side winds.

This bike, it could be ridden in perfect weather on a perfect track,
would have true 320mph potential......

http://i31.photobucket.com/albums/c388/tricktom1/215167_10150155529149228_556669227_6427022_7740762_n.jpg

Hard to tell if the bottom is "very flat."

If this aero design has potential problems, they might be in three main areas:

1)  It sure looks like the front of the fairing, which covers the front wheel,
moves the Cp or "center of pressure" well forward of the "Cg" or center of gravity, 
and that would VASTLY increase the negative effects of side winds,
perhaps to the point of instability and a crash.

2)  The "low to the ground" mounting of the fairing would increase that,
if the bike "leaned into the wind," that the fairing would contact the ground,
de-stabilize the bike, and make "recovery" problematic.

3)  If there is any substantial "down force" from the front of the bike,
and if the suspension in the front is "soft enough," the high-speed-wind
of a 300 mph run count force the fairing into the ground,
and cause the bike to not respond to steering input.

Learn by doing................

Title: Re: Fatalities in LSR
Post by: scott g on June 14, 2016, 05:28:54 PM
This bike has successfully run perhaps 285 mph at Bonneville,
without using all the available track, and thus more speed.

https://encrypted-tbn3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSuzjqYRMGbkUxYqjSNyT4yCYYKoXEHnEfgwe1fZ3c_jEfHJ3ipKA

The bike shows some good aerodynamic work,
and the 285 mph speed is pretty good for a 1000cc bike.

The CP should be properly BEHIND the Cg,
and the bike should be pretty stable

With the additional horsepower (maybe 200) of a full 1,350cc engine,
this bike might have almost the high-speed potential of the first bike,
but without many of the possible handling problems.

Top speed potential, 310-320 mph
Title: Re: Fatalities in LSR
Post by: scott g on June 14, 2016, 05:44:06 PM
BILL WARNER

Bill brought a great intellect, and a great drive to the sport,
and his speeds are better than others........there are
questions if his significant records will EVER be broken.

His greatest personal efforts went into his aerodynamics.

Here is a RARE shot of bill's bike at speed, and from ground level.

http://guardianlv.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/07/o-BILL-WARNER-DEAD-facebook-650x432.jpg

Notice:

The "tail-down" bias created by suspension and HUGE horsepower.

Notice also the "quite flat" underside of the fairing
a design feature Bill had avoided in previous designs.

http://graphics8.nytimes.com/images/2013/07/15/automobiles/wheels/bill-warner-motorcycle-crash/bill-warner-motorcycle-crash-blog480.jpg

Is there "lift " on the front end due to the power of the engine ?

On Bill's "fatal run," the bike was accelerating harder then ever before,
and was probably over 300 mph BEFORE the measured mile.

Could the power of the bike have "lifted" the bike enough that the
front tire lost contact with the ground ?

Was the area of the front of the fairing so great that the bike, when "lifted,"
made the bike highly susceptible to side winds ?

The bike probably knows, but
the data has never been unloaded..........


Title: Re: Fatalities in LSR
Post by: scott g on June 14, 2016, 06:01:14 PM
GUY CAPUTO

Guy put a tremendous effort into his current race bike,
and it shows in this picture:

http://www.suzukihayabusa.org/tiger.gif

Notice the similarity to the first ("Mojave") bike.

http://i31.photobucket.com/albums/c388/tricktom1/207281_10150155528869228_556669227_6427018_1330733_n.jpg

Much of the fairing work was from the same manufacturer.

On Guy's bike, the front wheel is visible,
probably because that track's rules required it to be so.
(Remember to add the area of the fender into the
"area" of the front)

Otherwise the aero is pretty similar.

Guy's bike has a VERY pronounced flat bottom.

What caused Guy's crash ?

Flat bottom ?

Cp vs Cg problems ?

Side wind ?

Combination ?



Title: Re: Fatalities in LSR
Post by: scott g on June 14, 2016, 06:10:45 PM
Are we actually making improvements ?

Here is a great shot of Guy on his previous bike:

http://www.dragbike.com/dbnews/articlefiles/082610b.jpg

GREAT tuck ! 

Guy KNOWS how to hide from the wind,
and how to ride fast !

The front fairing is VERY stock.

The front fender is Guy's own design, as is the
"under-tray" under the swing-arm. 

The seat fairing is largely stock, but slightly extended.

Overall, the bike looks very stock, and that setup has
been shown by thousands of runs to be stable over
200 mph. 

Guys bike in this photo shows lower "front-side" area,
and so probably better stability at speed.

Overall, the bike has less 'side area,
and so helping with control in side winds.

One suspects that the preceding designs offer higher
potential speeds, but is the "risk" worth it ?
Title: Re: Fatalities in LSR
Post by: RansomT on June 14, 2016, 09:34:34 PM
Scott, you have shared a lot of invaluable information in these post.  Surprisingly, some of the same information I have discussed in depth with others in the past few weeks. After reflection, I do have some more information and comments especially about Guy's crash. Just my observations:

My 244 mph run was 18 minutes before Guy's and 34 minutes after Shane's run.  The wind was definitely a factor.  The NOAA office at the track reported E winds at 7-10 mph during this time gusting to 17.  Since we run at Wilmington NE to SW, the "reported" wind direction was a crossing tail.  When I was at the start line, the wind was blowing about 30 degrees to left of a true tailwind.  During the run, I could feel the left push, but for me it wasn't bad.  As I dropped over the hill (which is the 1/2 mile point) the left push became heavier.  At approximately 3/4 mile the push got hard enough that I had to lean outside of the airstream to keep the bike straight, but as I shifted into 6th, the left push went away and I concentrated on keep everything smooth and straight through the traps.  Unfortunately, my on board camera decided to not record the run until I was turning out.  However, it did give me a glimpse via the flags of the wind direction, it looked to be about 15 degrees left of a true tailwind.

I drove straight back to the line to do another run after picking up my timing slip.  Guy was suited and "on deck" to run.  I relayed the information about the 3/4 mile situation to him and told him to be careful.

Now, backing up to the day before.....I witnessed Guy turn almost 90 degrees on the track at speed (around 1/4 mile) when he was hit by crosswind gust.  Afterwards, I talked with him and help take pictures of the scrapes the fairings suffered.  It looked to me that when the bike was hit by a crosswind the bottom of the bike tried to come out from under the bike.  The crosswind blew from the right side and the bike leaned right trying to drive into the wind.  Of course this is OPPOSITE of what a street bike does.  To correct this issue on Guy's bike, you would have to lean away from the wind to get the bottom of the bike back under you and THEN gradually lean toward the wind to get the bike back on the track.  Guy actually put his foot down and up-righted the bike then leaned it into the wind to stay on course, scared him pretty bad.

And sense we are sharing pictures: Here is a snapshot of my bike at the start.   It's taken as I was leaving the line, still slipping the clutch and my left foot is in the process of getting behind the fairing.  No tight tuck, yet.

http://www.brocksperformance.com/brocknm/articlefiles/16-0503-ecta-ransom-holbrook-02.jpg (http://www.brocksperformance.com/brocknm/articlefiles/16-0503-ecta-ransom-holbrook-02.jpg)
Title: Re: Fatalities in LSR
Post by: FlaminRoo on June 21, 2016, 06:51:15 PM
What I see in the shot of Bill at speed, is the "bunching" of his leathers in the shoulder/hump area,  :(

Also, in reply #201, the fellow killed at Bonneville in the "laydown, small tired, flat bottem" was riding a fully enclosed "Streamliner", it did not "take off", it rolled violently quiet a number of times ,, I witnessed the complete incident,,

 
Title: Re: Fatalities in LSR
Post by: AlterEgo on June 30, 2016, 02:32:27 PM
Thanks Scott, Great write up and analysis.
Title: Re: Fatalities in LSR
Post by: AlterEgo on June 30, 2016, 02:40:53 PM
Not sure if the Rider mentioned was Cliff Gullett or not, but Cliff in the stream liner had a rear  tire come apart, and went sideways, he did go air-born then rolled violently.  I was on the starting line and saw the whole thing. I would say he went 20 ft up.

What I see in the shot of Bill at speed, is the "bunching" of his leathers in the shoulder/hump area,  :(

Also, in reply #201, the fellow killed at Bonneville in the "laydown, small tired, flat bottem" was riding a fully enclosed "Streamliner", it did not "take off", it rolled violently quiet a number of times ,, I witnessed the complete incident,,

 
Title: Re: Fatalities in LSR
Post by: scott g on June 30, 2016, 02:52:44 PM
What I see in the shot of Bill at speed, is the "bunching" of his leathers in the shoulder/hump area,  :(

Also, in reply #201, the fellow killed at Bonneville in the "laydown, small tired, flat bottem" was riding a fully enclosed "Streamliner", it did not "take off", it rolled violently quiet a number of times ,, I witnessed the complete incident,,


 

Thanks for an "eye witness" report.

That I know of, the cause of the accident has never
been discussed in public, and the causes outlined.

My understanding from 2nd hand descriptions,
it that a tyre deflated, and the bike went sideways.

There are reports that the bike may have "pole vaulted,"
or gone front over back, and then started rolling on it's side.

The bike then rolled numerous times on it's side like
rolling a pencil on a desk (called 'pencil rolling')

So far, the rider / driver was OK.

After part of the body / belly pan came adrift,
the rider's arm was partially or fully severed,
and the rider exsanguinated (bled) to death.

Probably preventable by better
vehicle design or production.
Title: Re: Fatalities in LSR
Post by: FlaminRoo on June 30, 2016, 04:00:42 PM
Viewed from the startline , given that the 'liner was approx. 20' long, it could appear that it went that high into the air,, I witnessed the event  from the pits adjacent to where it happened on course,, regardless, it was/is a tragic event,, I lost my desire to ride a Streamliner right then and there,,
Title: Re: Fatalities in LSR
Post by: scott g on June 30, 2016, 04:55:45 PM
Viewed from the startline , given that the 'liner was approx. 20' long, it could appear that it went that high into the air,, I witnessed the event  from the pits adjacent to where it happened on course,, regardless, it was/is a tragic event,, I lost my desire to ride a Streamliner right then and there,,

I have driven a streamliner 258 mph,
and now that it is over, I never want
to do it again !

By my calculations, streamliners have the
highest "Death rate per mile driven"
of any vehicle on earth.

NO room for error..........
Title: Re: Fatalities in LSR
Post by: scott g on July 23, 2016, 07:51:09 AM
We now have additional information on the SALOM crash.

http://fim.hosting.augure.com/Augure_FIM/r/ContenuEnLigne/Download?id=3BF3C60A-F6BD-4044-AA06-E2CA34A60AF9&filename=Luis-Salom-Report.pdf
Title: Re: Fatalities in LSR
Post by: sgvridgerunner on September 04, 2016, 01:27:25 PM
Catching up on my reading here in the LSR forums (been playing "new dad" for the past month), and one thing that I noticed is that it's been over a month and no one has mentioned Sam Wheeler in this post yet.

I didn't know Sam, so I am unqualified to write anything about him or about the details of the incident, but maybe someone on here would like to.

If I'm stepping on someone's toes or bringing up a sore subject, then please let me know. If there's a reason why nothing's been mentioned, then I am truly ignorant to it. All I know from what I've read so far is that he was a pioneer of our sport and a great engineer.

RIP Sam Wheeler #999 (25 July, 2016)

-Dave
Title: Re: Fatalities in LSR
Post by: scott g on September 27, 2016, 10:52:26 AM
As the 2016 Land Speed Racing season draws close
to a productive season, there are still questions about
three crashes, one fatal, one almost-fatal, and one near fatal.

These crashes are very disappointing, but in a small way, reassuring.

Disappointing in that there has been a death,
and reassuring that two of the three survived.

The death was of beloved racer SAM WHEELER,
star of the Bonneville film "WORLD'S FASTEST MOTORCYCLE."
Sam drove the "Green bike" in the 2006
2-hour classic narrated by Dave Despain.

Another crashes were by Guy Caputo, a long-time bike racer,
small businessman, and the designer and builder of his own
motorcycle, intended to reach far over 250mph.

The final "participant" is the popular BRENDA SUE CARVER,
a talented grandmother from Texas, who was competing
at LORING AFB in Maine this month.

The three accidents have a surprising amount in common,
even though they were at three (3) different tracks,
on three(3) widely differing types of motorcycle,
and at speeds ranging from under 140mph to as high as 250mph.

Title: Re: Fatalities in LSR
Post by: MJ Williams on September 27, 2016, 11:47:15 AM
Hiro Koiso crashed at the 2016 BMST at 200+ with a suspected front end component failure.
It was a fully faired LSR V-twin that had run 240 earlier in the meet.
People described the debris fields as being over an 1/8 mile long.
Hiro only had some broken fingers and was concussed.
I've fallen off a bicycle and got hurt worse, good on him.
Title: Re: Fatalities in LSR
Post by: scott g on September 28, 2016, 10:18:53 AM
Hiro Koiso crashed at the 2016 BMST at 200+ with a suspected front end component failure.
It was a fully faired LSR V-twin that had run 240 earlier in the meet.
People described the debris fields as being over an 1/8 mile long.
Hiro only had some broken fingers and was concussed.
I've fallen off a bicycle and got hurt worse, good on him.

Jamie:  I would be excited to know more
about this crash in particular.

IRCC, there was a picture posted showing
the FRONT wheel with blisters, and tread separation.

I have NEVER seen this on a Bonneville motorcycle,
and I would love to know if there is any relationship to the crash.......
Title: Re: Fatalities in LSR
Post by: MJ Williams on September 28, 2016, 11:28:51 AM
Wrong Williams, Jamie is better looking and..... shorter!
There was an investigation/clean-up at the track for about 1-1/2 hours afterward but nobody was forthcoming with info.
The front end component failure quote came from Hiro's Facebook, beyond that I can't speak to what happen.
Hiro's had a couple hard knock's at Bonneville over the years and I'm glad to see he is well after this one.
Title: Re: Fatalities in LSR
Post by: scott g on September 29, 2016, 09:44:54 AM
MJ:  You have highlighted one of the problems
with trying to figure out these crashes:

Nobody makes a "formal report."

Most motor racing "accidents" happen
during an "event" of some sort, and are
usually NOT investigated by the "usual suspects,"
like police or highway patrols.

Bill Warner's crash was unusual in that the
local law enforcement agency (to whom I had
offered motorcycle accident investigations training)
did what is called a pretty complete work-up and report.

I have not seen that report, even though I have (twice)
called the police chief and requested a copy.  It very much
seems like they don't want to talk about the crash,
or the results of their investigation.

Another disturbing factor is that THE BIKE knows what happened.

Bill was a real believer in data and analysis. 
His bike was LOADED with sensors and recording capability.

For whatever reason, the on-board data has never been
made public - and I understand has actually never been viewed !

In the face of this "scarcity of data," it is hard to come up
with a definitive answer about what CAUSED the crash !

Many similar racing accidents have the same underlying problems.........

Title: Re: Fatalities in LSR
Post by: Oz Booster on September 29, 2016, 04:13:05 PM
"IRCC, there was a picture posted showing
the FRONT wheel with blisters, and tread separation"

cant comment about Hiros front tire , but had one front delaminate and seen another racer chunk a front tire off centre i am pretty sure it was caused by countersteering a side wind
Title: Re: Fatalities in LSR
Post by: joea on September 29, 2016, 04:32:25 PM
it was reported from reliable source to be "triple clamp" failure Re Hiro mishap
Title: Re: Fatalities in LSR
Post by: scott g on September 30, 2016, 10:10:01 AM
It would be nice to follow up on that............
Title: Re: Fatalities in LSR
Post by: scott g on October 04, 2016, 10:31:07 AM
In the last few months,
our sport has experienced
several bad crashes.

One was fatal, (Sam Wheeler)
one was near fatal, (Guy Caputo)
and one pretty bad (Brenda Sue Carver).

Let's think about those......
Title: Re: Fatalities in LSR
Post by: scott g on October 04, 2016, 10:35:19 AM
In ALL THREE crashes, the speeds
attained BEFORE the crashes were
in the neighborhood of 225-250 mph,
so we are dealing with similar speeds.

Sam Wheeler was fully outfitted in his streamliner,
and Guy and Brenda Sue were on sit-on bikes.

Guy remembers on Facebook:


Just for the record. My body work did NOT cause my crash. My air tech streamlining bodywork is the slickest bodywork that you can own for a high-speed motorcycle it was designed to go very fast through the air which it does very well. My crash was caused by a side wind that caused me to lean over where my belly pan rubbed on the asphalt and lifted my tires off the ground. Yes, The bodywork has a lot of square feet of perpendicular side walls that will catch a side wind but I know this and still I took the bike out where the winds were higher than I should of been riding in. This bodywork is specifically designed to slide through the air with a headwind or tail wind but little or no side wins. Everything on my motorcycle worked perfectly and at 20 pounds of boost in 5th at 9600 rpm, the Brock performance calculator suggested that I was at 250 mph+ at the 7/8 mile marker. My Bates leathers and my Bell helmet saved my life. The well trained paramedics of the Wilmington fire Dept kept me alive. Because of the amount of metal in my neck, arms and legs I am no longer able to get into the riding position to ride the flying tiger anymore. The only damage that she incurred was a ground down fuel pump. All I need to do is mount another Bosch 44 fuel pump and it's ready to ride. This crash was my fault and mine alone, no parts, pieces or assemblies of this motorcycle caused my crash, it was me and only me that did it. When you race at ultra high speeds you never know when it's your time. Thanks for all who prayed and wished me well it's because of you that I am doing so well so quickly.
Title: Re: Fatalities in LSR
Post by: MJ Williams on October 04, 2016, 08:04:38 PM
Thank you posting that.
Title: Re: Fatalities in LSR
Post by: scott g on October 15, 2016, 10:04:03 AM
Bonneville Champion and long-time LSR
competitor at the highest levels JOE AMO reports he heard
that somebody ran off the end of the Mojave track,
and crashed with many broken bones.

My fastest rider JOHN LEVIE went 289 mph into a
14 mph headwind at the World of Speed last month.

That's over 300mph air speed.

About 6-8 months ago, I asked John if Bonneville
would be viable for the speeds we wanted to go,
 and if we wanted to do some running on pavement.

He said " To run on pavement is to die......"
Title: Re: Fatalities in LSR
Post by: scott g on April 09, 2017, 08:20:37 PM
2016 report

We had three(3) notable crashes in 2016,
which yielded one highly disappointing
(and to a large degree unexplained)
death of one of motorcycle LSR’s most
revered and experienced racers.

* * * *
The beautiful, talented and entertaining
“Tu Tu Sue” Brenda Sue Carver, found herself
running fast on a preliminary run at Loring.
Brenda is one of the fastest woman riders
in the world, and is especially experienced
and proficient on pavement.

For poorly-understood reasons, Brenda Sue found
 herself drifting her Hayabusa to the side of the track,
and crashing at possibly as fast as 225 mph.


The crash essentially ended the meeting,
Brenda was transported to hospital, and the
injuries resulted in the loss of much of her right leg.

No reliable opinions about the cause of
Carver's accident have been put forward.


* * * *


Guy Caputo, many-times Maxton record holder
and Wilmington Motorcycle Safety Inspector crashed
his Hayabusa at the Ohio track at about 250mph,
as estimated by on-board data.

Informed opinions about the cause(s) are scant,
but Guy and others at the track place most
of the blame on side winds. Fairing design
may have played a part.

Guy was properly dressed, but still suffered
extensive damage to his upper spine which
required fixation, and a still-continuing course
of treatment, almost a year later.

Almost all of Guy'sspinal problems came to his neck area,
and he was not wearing neck protection (See post #).


* * * *


The most troubling crash, and the most disappointing,
was to Sam Wheeler at an early-season race at Bonneville.

Sam’s injuries were eventual fatal in Hospital
after a medivac protocol.

Sam was riding in his world-famous
(and world record-setting) streamliner,
which had been previously timed at over 355mph,
about 10 years ago.

Sam was fully outfitted in protective gear,
 including neck protection. The bike, a result
of 50 years of design and riding experience,
had huge crash protection built in, including
extensive head and neck protection.

At about 2 miles into a practice run, Sam’s ‘liner
lost control and crashed, resulting in
Sam’s eventually-fatal injuries.

The fatal injuries were to the head.

Sam’s “crash speed” of less than 200 mph
left observers stunned, since Sam had previously
crashed the same bike at over 350mph, and walked away.

Qualified safety experts were hugely surprised that
such a relatively slow crash in a streamliner could prove fatal.
At least one expert voiced concern that at the time of the crash,
Sam had not driven the ‘liner in almost 10 years,
and had gained enough weight that he did not properly
fit into the “roll structure” of the bike.

Experts and observers both were puzzled by how
one of the safest motorcycles could allow fatal injuries
to a rider properly dressed and strapped in.

Also unexplained was how a rider with 50 years of Bonneville
riding experience could crash at “half-speed”
on an essentially windless day, with no known mechanical defects.


* * * *

ALL of the above riders were well experienced,
mature adults, and had many passes over
200 mph.


There is a lot we don’t know,
and I suspect there is far more that
we don’t know that we don’t know……………
Title: Re: Fatalities in LSR
Post by: scott g on April 17, 2017, 03:36:21 PM
So, what might be COMMON FACTORS in the above accidents that
could lead us to preventing further similar problems ?

1) Age ?

All competitors were over 50, and ranged up to the low 70's.

Although age often brings less desire to engage in risk-taking behavior,
it often weakens eyesight, extends reaction time, and is accompanied
by a loss of physical strength and endurance.

Do these factors affect performance ?

How does that fit ?

2)  Experience ? 

ALL the racers had experience, but none were HIGHLY experienced,
as in having made hundreds of high-speed runs.

One might term them as mature, moderately experienced riders.

One benefit of extensive experience is having confronted and surmounted
numerous situations that, without experience, would result in a crash. 

Thus, we would expect that, the more experience,
the more likelihood of avoiding a crash.

Can it be that the TYPE of experience counts
as much or more than mere repetition ?

Speed ?

This was Guy's initial experience with 250mph, and it did not end well for him.
Would having "worked up" by say 5mph steps, repeated several times
(like 230,230,230, 235,235,235, 240,240,240,240 etc have helped ? 

Probably.

How many of us can afford that much expense
in maintenance, track-time, and lack of fulfillment ?

Brenda's speed was not unusual for her, nor was the track environment.

As with Guy, could it have been the wind ?

Can experience overcome wind ?

In spite of having raced at Bonneville for maybe 60 years
(think: 3 generations), Sam Wheeler did not
actually have that many runs at Bonneville,
maybe only an average of 1-2 runs pre year, maybe less. 

Possibly NONE in the preceding 10 years.

How many athletes are at their best
after a ten year layoff, and 10 years older ?
Title: Re: Fatalities in LSR
Post by: 1 wheel peel on April 18, 2017, 09:47:29 AM
......Another disturbing factor is that THE BIKE knows what happened.

Bill was a real believer in data and analysis. 
His bike was LOADED with sensors and recording capability.

For whatever reason, the on-board data has never been
made public - and I understand has actually never been viewed !
........

Many similar racing accidents have the same underlying problems.........

While admittedly I haven't read all 10 pages of this thread, do we have any idea why it has never been looked at?
Title: Re: Fatalities in LSR
Post by: scott g on May 10, 2017, 12:01:20 PM
A slight digression, but valuable information:

Recently, five(5) times World Champion Anthony DeHalle (35)
died in a testing crash on his Factory Suzuki GSXR-1000
endurance bike at the Circuit de Nogaro in France.

It was reported that DeHalle was in control of his bike when
the front wheel left the paved track surface onto wet grass,
and he crashed heavily at high speed.  DeHalle dit not hit a wall,
or any obstructions, and was not contacted by the bike.

Cause of death was determined to be a cervical (neck) spinal injury.

Here's some thinking:

At most paved LSR tracks, Goliad, Maxton, Loring, Wilmington,
Beeville, etc, there is no "run-off" area" like in MotoGP,  You just
"drop off" the edge of the pavement, and take your chances.

There is often a "drop off," due to bikes and cars "dipping a wheel,"
and moving the dirt away from the pavement.  This dip can
catch" the front tire, and loss of control follows.

This is the second "bad" accident within maybe 15 months - including that
of Guy Caputo - that involved Cervical spinal injuries. 

Neither rider was using cervical spinal protection.

The car guys use such protection, and have used it for maybe 25 years.

Is it time for HANS devices for motorcycle racing and LSR ?
Title: Re: Fatalities in LSR
Post by: MJ Williams on May 10, 2017, 03:23:35 PM
Motocross and enduro riders have such a device available and you see more and more top level riders using them, they are starting to make inroads in the roadracing community too.
http://www.leatt.com/shop/braces.html

Simon Edwards from Team Edwards used a type of HANS device at the 2016 BMST.
http://www.scootershoots.com/BUBMotorcycleSpeedTrials/2016-Bonneville-Motorcycle-Speed-Trials/i-9dHLmQw/A
Simon is a P/A in the emergency department of a large hospital in Colorado along with having been a medic that has seen combat duty, so he has seen his fair share of serious neck trauma and has legitimate insight into why someone would use one.

The argument that would come up for LSR is they are un-aerodynamic and will hurt top speed etc. but the same argument was made for back protectors at one time. Until someone gets one in a wind tunnel to get objective numbers we won't know but as I look to doing some roadracing track days this summer I am going to purchase one. 



Title: Re: Fatalities in LSR
Post by: scott g on May 18, 2017, 01:52:26 PM
Hayden………….

Nicky Hayden……………

Nicky Hayden, MotoGP world champion,
Seriously injured in bicycle traffic accident in eastern Italy.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/othersports/article-4519772/Nicky-Hayden-intensive-care-cycling-accident.html

Ironic that Nicky could have avoided serious injury in nearly three (3) decades of motorcycle racing, including 10 years where almost every race offered top speeds over 200 mph EVERY LAP, every practice session, many weekends per year.

The photo’s in the above article show damage to the vehicles that would be very expectable for a bicycle impact with a car.

The shortening of the bicycle’s wheelbase is consistent with the bicycle directly impacting the car.

The damage to the car windshield attests to an impact by Nicky’s upper body.

The windshield impact was probably the least of Nicky’s injury; the windshield would collapse and receive impact energy from the body and (relatively) slowly dissipate that energy, mitigating injury.

More serious it the damage to the roofline in the center of the car, over the windshield.  This is usually a “hard part” of the car, and resists deformation in an impact.

If Nicky’s head hit the roofline, that could easily be the most serious injury of the whole impact.

We respect Nicky, and wish him well……….
Title: Re: Fatalities in LSR
Post by: scott g on May 18, 2017, 01:59:44 PM
Additional info & a better photo:

https://www.motorsport.com/wsbk/news/motogp-hayden-serious-condition-road-accident-907085/
Title: Re: Fatalities in LSR
Post by: scott g on June 05, 2017, 11:00:15 AM
Hurt for no reason.

Died for no reason.

Survived 200 races for this ?

The beat goes on………..

*             *          *          *          *

Known to racers and knowledgeable insiders,
the accidental death toll for racers hurt while NOT racing
is incredibly higher that to be expected.

Racers rarely die of old age in their beds.

Whether Bonneville 200 MPH Club members,
Or Indianapolis 500 racers, the toll is high,
MUCH more than for “average” folks…………..

Is it that we are just highly “risk takers?”

The answer is yes.

Is it that if not going 200 mph,
we think life is just a breeze ? 

Maybe so..

*                  *               *           *

Thought by many to be the best motorcycle road racer
who ever lived, MIKE HAILWOOD died in a street crash in 1974.

Hailwood died following a street crash when his car struck
and illegally-turning truck near his home in England.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mike_Hailwood

http://www.independent.co.uk/sport/motor-racing/mike-the-bike-rides-again-the-tragic-story-of-mike-hailwood-told-in-new-documentary-9215572.html

Hailwood's crash, almost 50 years earlier than
Nicky Hayden’s crash in Italy, is remarkably similar.

1)  Both lost lives in street accidents.

2)  Both victims of illegal turns,

3)  Both crashes at reduced urban speeds.

4)  Both completely avoidable

Why these crashes occurred to men of such
stunning riding talent is the real surprise.

Some clue to “mind set” is offered by the circumstances
of the horrible Bubba Shobert crash at Leguna Seca in 1989.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TIt3bLNb9Y8

http://articles.latimes.com/1991-04-25/sports/sp-1185_1_motor-racing

Perhaps the common thread is that Riders of stunning talent
were just not paying enough attention to situations that
(as it would prove) were more deadly than
anything they had experienced while racing.

One suspects that these men certainly had the vehicle skills,
mental abilities, eyesight and experience to “predict” when
there would appear a threat on the highway that could turn into a disaster.

In other words, they should have been able to avoid the accidents
that claimed them, if they had just applied and used
those skills that had made them champions……..


What were they thinking...........?

           
Title: Re: Fatalities in LSR
Post by: FlaminRoo on June 05, 2017, 07:29:27 PM
As racers we often hear comment from folks on how dangerous it is to do what we do, if only thay realized just "How Dangerous" a drive to the supermarket is,,
Title: Re: Fatalities in LSR
Post by: scott g on June 06, 2017, 08:22:26 AM
I was reminded of MICHAEL SCHUMACHER, the great F1 driver.

Schumacher, who has won more F1 driver’s championships
than anyone else, suffered catastrophic brain injuries while downhill skiing. 

Details of the accident are late in the below article.

Schumacher’s lifetime history in racing:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_Schumacher

Reading down this article will bring your attention to
Schumacher’s interest in helmets, and their design. 
Schumacher was no stranger to the concepts of “head safety.”

It has been reported that when asked if he might crown his career
by running in the Indianapolis 500 race, Schumacher declined,
saying that “Indy it too dangerous.”

A man who understood his limits,
and was careful(usually) about his life………

Title: Re: Fatalities in LSR
Post by: scott g on June 06, 2017, 08:40:35 AM
My basis for making some of these observations
 is my experience and training in SAFETY,
a career I have pursued since my
first paycheck in the spring of 1963.

More than 50 years.

My bachelors and masters degrees were in safety,
as was my PhD work in the 1970’s.  At the PhD level,
I specialized in Motorcycle Safety
(and yes, I know that’s an oxymoron).

Principles about safety could include:

1)    Real risk vs Perceived risk.

2)    Risk assessment vs Risk acceptance.

In the first, we could maybe put the public’s view to racing
down a deserted road (or airport runway) at over 200 mph
as having HIGH perceived risk. 

Yet these same folks would not hesitate to fly on an airliner
 with a takeoff speed over 200 mph. 

That’s the “perceived” part. 

In the second of the pair of principles, we could put Michael Schumacher: 
He was quite familiar with Formula one racing, and found that risk acceptable. 
He also felt comfortable with thinking that “Indy racing” was NOT acceptable. 

For many of us, the problems start to grow when we are in an area
that we are unfamiliar with, like when downhill skiing that becomes
 “cross country skiing” for Schumacher. 

And we accept risks that we are unaware of………………….

Title: Re: Fatalities in LSR
Post by: 2fast4u2c on June 22, 2017, 05:10:52 PM
It's been over a year since my accident and my body is still paying for it.  I broke/fractured 77 bones.  My spine suffered massive trauma and I crushed C1 and 2, broke C5 & C6.  They have fixaters mounted to them and I am fused from C1 to C7  Crushed my right foot breaking all the metatarsals.  Broke all ribs and the list goes on.  On ventilator for, 9 days.  If it weren't for the love and prayers of hundreds of people, I would not be here today.  I flew backwards, on my head, legs in the air thru the finish line at 96.4mph (I have the time ticket).
Scott G. nailed it as to how my accident happened.  Yes, wind was the major culprit (but not only) that started my demise down the track.  From the moment I exited the bike to where I came to a rest (mound of flesh) I had traveled over 1,200 feet ass over bandbox.  My very heavy LSR designed leathers and Bell helmet saved my life.  I do not remember 2 days before or 2 weeks after the accident.  That part of my life is gone.  I see in pictures and hear stories from racer friends who were there and the ECTA personnel in the finish line trailer what happened to me but I have ZERO memory of the event.  I no longer can physically can turn my head and have no ability to grasp a throttle and twist it so motorcycles are no longer a part of my life.  My head is mounted on my shoulders with a 20 degree downward angle.  My head has 15 degrees of movement left and right and up and down.  To see things ahead of me I have to tilt my shoulders back so my head will point forward.  I'm hoping to regain feeling in my hands, butt, left leg and thighs.  Dr's say in another year what ever I get back will be about it.  I have returned to my job as of Oct 15th and I am now able to travel on planes again.  I will wear support socks the rest of my life and Thank God every day for another one. 

After all of this, I do not regret one minute I have spent with my LSR family.  Would I do it again if I was physically able?  In a heartbeat. 
As I move forward in my life, My wife and I have chosen to start another chapter in our lives together and travel the byways and highways of our great country. 

Maybe you will see me pull up in a rickety old trailer and I will set out a lawn chair and watch others race.  Who knows.  If anyone is interested in a business, Tiger Racing is for sale.
Title: Re: Fatalities in LSR
Post by: MJ Williams on June 22, 2017, 05:31:22 PM
Thank you for the post.
As you travel if you end up in the PNW, let me know.
There is room at my place to park your trailer.
MJ
Title: Re: Fatalities in LSR
Post by: scott g on September 23, 2017, 08:19:48 AM
NECK PROTECTION

We have talked earlier in this thread about the
 fatal MotoGP crash of start Marco Simoncelli. 
You may recall that Marco had an unusual crash
that carried him back into the racing line,
and he was then run over by a following rider.

Post-fatality reports from MotoGP or track medical
personnel are scant, but the video may show that
 Marco was run over  by the front tire of the following rider. 
In that case, there can be at least two causes of death:

1) A spinal injury (see Guy Caputo’s exciting ride !) 

2)  The throat is crushed, and strangulation causes anoxia and death.

Modern devises like the HANS equipment is a good start
at preventing spinal injury, but so far, nothing much has been
done for the prevention of CRUSHING injury.

Almost never discussed is the risk of CUTTING………………

Only minutes ago, Mika Kallio, a rising MotoGP star
crashed (Luckily walked away) in the 3rd practice
session of the MotoGP race meeting at Aragon, Spain.

In the crash, which involved some pretty spectacular
rider gymnastics while the bike was squirming and Kallio
 was flying, the WIND SCREEN slammed into Kallio’s throat.

Had the impact been “stronger” Kallio’s larynx may
 have been crushed, and strangulation the result.

Had the wind screen been broken, the sharp edges
could have opened the rider’s throat – sort of like a tracheotomy.

Worse, the large artery (carotid) to the head may have been cut,
and the rider might have bled to death before
medical help could have stopped the bleeding.

Yes, these windscreens are usually made of plastic
that will deform without breaking, but still they are
 very strong when the force is applied INTO the edge,
without bending force.

Will riders be required to use neck and throat protection in the future ?

Will they complain about difficulty breathing and movement restriction ?

Sword fighters (think-fencing) wear
some pretty serious – and restrictive protective gear.

Do they complain ?

Yes – but they still wear it……………….

Title: Re: Fatalities in LSR
Post by: scott g on October 09, 2017, 01:12:22 PM
The season is almost over, and almost everybody remains safe and sound !

We attended the BARBER VINTAGE WEEKEND and found some folks
willing to discuss our safety problems.  Among those participating
 in those discussions was Leif Gustafsson, a past MotoGP winner,
and the owner of Gustafsson Plastics

https://bikescreen.com/

who have supplied small-production motorcycle fairing windscreens since 1968.

Between us (My first race win was in 1967), we have more than 100 years experience in the field.
When given the choice, I have ALWAYS specified GUSTAFSSON WINDSCREENS.

Here's one of the reasons:

Leif and I discussed the " windpipe" injury and "cutting" problems.
When I questioned Leif about the Mika Kallio situation, he immediately
responded in his still slightly accented Swedish voice:

"If the rider is going to contact any part of the bike with an unprotected
portion of his body, that that portion of the bike must be "softer" that that
 part of the rider's body.  The windscreen is a special case. 

We have always recommended that for racing the windscreen should be
 a "breakaway" part that will exit the bike before the rider's body is injured.
This is often accomplished with soft plastic fasteners.

 If the "breakaway" mounting style is NOT used, than a special plastic
 must be used that will not shatter and produce sharp edges that will cut the rider.
 It is VERY hard to find a suitable plastic formulation that will allow this.

An added concern is that the plastic not turn yellow when
 exposed to the strong UV light on racing days.

We have never found a plastic - regardless of cost - that can perform
ALL these jobs, so we have to prioritize the needs.

We prefer to never expose the rider to possible injury, but we cannot
control - once the screen leaves our shop - how the user installs the product."




 
Title: Re: Fatalities in LSR
Post by: bowches on October 11, 2017, 03:11:06 PM
It would be really amazing if someone were to develop a robot to do some high speed testing like Yamaha are doing with Motobot.....

You would be able to do plenty more runs without the risk of a human being injured, that would help alot to gather data right?

What do people think?
Title: Re: Fatalities in LSR
Post by: speedduck on October 12, 2017, 09:07:13 AM
Bad idea, the whole point in LSR is that there is some kind of danger factor present, otherwise my mrs would be running records and i would be at home watching Deadliest Catch on tv
Title: Re: Fatalities in LSR
Post by: scott g on October 15, 2017, 07:03:14 AM
... the whole point in LSR is that there is some kind of danger factor present,
otherwise my mrs would be running records and
i would be at home watching Deadliest Catch on tv...

And, thinking about risk, do try to watch
the last lap of the Japanese Grand Prix; a HUGE battle between
Marquez on the slipping 'n Sliding Honda (it was a rain  race)
 and the constantly wobbling Ducati of Dovizioso............

The point for us is that is is highly possible that the bike will
 want to pitch us off (Dovizioso) or jump out from under us (Marquez).

Risk is always with us.

Perhaps the point (for us) of the Dovizioso / Marquez battle
is that experience is such a factor.

We can be absolutely certain that neither rider experienced
these horrible (and potentially fatal) problems for the first time today. 

They were able to just continue with their jobs,
and make adjustments as they raced.

Inexperienced riders almost certainly would have been on the deck.

Facing these situations - and developing mind / body memories
of how to surmount them - allows riders to survive to race again.
Title: Re: Fatalities in LSR
Post by: scott g on November 24, 2017, 01:40:32 PM
As we drift toward the 2017 final Holidays, and a season of good cheer, it seems to be a good time to take stock, and review where we are on safety.

That I know of, we have not lost a single LSR motorcycle rider’s life in the 2017 season.  That is a great relief, and hopefully is the beginning of a trend to the better.

Speeds in LSR are increasing gradually, with records set higher.

Statistics are a little hard to come by in LSR, since most – virtually all – tracks do not report accidents, and do not analyze the causes.

This is in stark contrast to MotoGP.

MotoGP is probably the most exciting televised motorsport, and has many hundreds of millions of viewers world wide.  Crashes are very visible, constantly analyzed, rarely fatal, and most instructive.

I have been lucky to have lived through the entire history of MotoGP, which started in 1949.

In the 1950’s; the first full decade of MotoGP; there were 28 fatalities.  That’s a rate of one DEATH per every 2 or 3 races.  This was obviously unsustainable to the modern plan, but the men were quite brave and very unlucky.

The 1960’s, with 25 deaths and the 1970’s were not much improved, with 24 fatalities.  Those decades showed fewer deaths PER RACE, simply because there were more races.

In the 1980’s, with the power of Kenny Roberts focused on safety, the toll reduced to only 14.  With many more races on the schedule, that represents a large improvement in overall odds of survival.

In the 1990’s, there were only two (2) lives lost, and from 2000 to 2009, there was only one (1) rider lost.

For sure that is an almost inconceivable improvement.  When one considers that there were more races, more racers, and tighter competition, MotoGP suddenly changed from a killing field to something reasonable.

How did MotoGP do this ?

Better track safety ( think:  Gravel traps instead of Armco, run-off instead of walls, better helmets and leathers – now with airbags) better rider training ( virtually all modern MotoGP riders are graduate of Moto2 and Moto3, and many raced as youths in national series.) but most importantly, MotoGP has the power, budget and desire to investigate analyze and publish the findings of EVERY SINGLE CRASH.  In 2017, that was almost 1,200 crashes with Moto2 and Moto3 included – with no fatalities ! 

What are the special risks of motorcycle LSR that help produce a fatality rate that is so much higher than MotoGP ?

Certainly experience is a factor – this for the most part an amateur sport.

Run-off room at Bonneville is unlimited, and generous at most paved LSR tracks.

Protective gear for riders is certainly much better than in the 1950’s, but few riders compete with “air bag” leathers, in spite of their relatively low cost…….

Most MotoGP riders regularly use air bag leathers and both back AND chest protectors.

In MotoGP, there is – relative to LSR – an infinitely higher chance of multiple riders – and bikes – coming in contact with each other.  It may be much easier to protect the rider who falls to the track as opposed to protecting the rider whose 300 or more pound motorcycle catches up with him and jumps up and down on him for a while…..

It may be impossible to isolate a single cause of our problems, and we make no real progress until we do our investigative homework…………
Title: Re: Fatalities in LSR
Post by: bowches on November 25, 2017, 02:37:49 AM
Hi Scott,

That was a very nice read, what you wrote....but surely the LSR Speeds are much higher than motogp and thus that is where the risk increases. The fastest speed a rider has fallen of in MotoGp is 200mph and it was Shinya Nakano in 2004. He was fine and was wearing a Shoe helmet. But 200mph is slow in LSR right?

There has got to be some sort of protective gear that gives you that protection when you fall off you know....we got to have room for error....

 
Title: Re: Fatalities in LSR
Post by: Oz Booster on November 25, 2017, 12:26:06 PM
There are a few differences to gp that will influence the outcome   ,
As Scott said the weight of the bike
We are older (although some of us may be younger than Rossi ;)  ), in the most part less fit , and carry more weight
The airfield have some objects like nearby tree lines or landing lights that could possibly be safer with an airfence
chances of low side to highside i think currently in GP favor the lowside and for us probably highside

After my off this season i am looking a lot closer at my gear and setup, currently comparing airbag suits for fit , function as well as being able to conform to the current regulations , its  sort of like the fast , reliable ,cheap thing so far i can only align 2 at any time   
Title: Re: Fatalities in LSR
Post by: RansomT on November 26, 2017, 12:01:52 PM
Well for starters:  Considering just at the last MotorGP event, Valencia, they had 71 crashes total. And with the "mountain" of crash analysis information that MotoGP has that the riders can draw from, it is if the MotoGP riders "practice" crashing.  IIRC, a couple months back I watched the qualifying rounds (Phillip Island?).  Watched a rider do a high speed lowside. While sliding, he hopped up, ran, then jumped over the fence, grabbed a photographer's scooter, raced it back to the pits, jumped on his back-up bike to try and do a qualifying lap with it.  All without taking his helmet off.
Title: Re: Fatalities in LSR
Post by: scott g on November 26, 2017, 03:47:30 PM
Absolutely right, Ransom !

One of the foundations of education,
as articulated by Johnan "Bubba"Pestalozzi,
was Learn by doing, and that certainly applies to crashing !

These MotoGP guys crash a lot, because they are on the edge.

 They are on the edge because they can be.

They can be on the edge because, for the most part,
they do what Dave Aldana once said:
"You don't know how hard you can go until you crash."

When Aldana said that in the 1970's, he was criticized
for being so cavalier about crashing, but he was right.

SO: The MotoGP guys go out, go as fast as they can,
sometimes crash, and learn from it.

We can suspect they do other things, like find out
how quickly they can accelerate without throwing too big a wheelie.

Or if they can ride out a big weave from the rear tire. 
Maybe what causes a wobble, and how to get  out of it.

The fact they can do this with relative impunity does
not mean that we in LSR can't practice,
it;'s just harder to get the track time.

You ( or I) could practice what happens when
you lose forward vision (Think: oil all over the
windshield and helmet shield),
by closing your eyes for 1,2 maybe 5 seconds.

I do it......................
Title: Re: Fatalities in LSR
Post by: MJ Williams on November 26, 2017, 06:22:42 PM
I've thrown several bikes (and myself) down the road in my road racing days and have only had to visit the ER twice over a 10 year career. Once was after my first high speed crash because I didn't have the knowledge of what to do. It made me seem "not quite" right in the head when I said the more I crashed, the better I got at not getting hurt but it is true. You learn to slow your mind down, spread out, not tumble, steer/slid and ride the crash out.
 
When Greg pitched his bike at Colorado (and slid 1001 feet) he told me that he slid and when it got hot on one side he rolled to the other side until it got warm and switched back until he stopped. That is not generally knowledge you are born with, that is hard won experience.

Don't know how one is going to practice crashing and don't really advise it but there is validity in the, having previous crashing experience, argument as one reason that serious injuries per crash are less in professional motorsports. 
Title: Re: Fatalities in LSR
Post by: scott g on December 30, 2017, 10:00:41 AM
MJ:

You are so right on this..........

You may recall that, for more than 36 years,
my day job was investigating motorcycle accidents,
and testifying to a jury about my findings.

One of the things I frequently heard from riders
was; "I laid it down to avoid an accident."

I even remember a "reputable" motorcycle magazine
 publishing an article - with pictures - on how to do that.

The problem it that - If you lay it down -
you are already HAVING an accident !

However, that was for sure a way to learn "how to crash."
Just no feedback on what you did right or wrong,
and no repetition to get better over time.....

I suspect for us, the better thing might be
learning to avoid the crash in the first place.

BUT, if you have to crash, then yes, it's better to know how......
Title: Re: Fatalities in LSR
Post by: scott g on December 30, 2017, 10:57:30 AM
It would be really amazing if someone were to develop a robot to do some high speed testing like Yamaha are doing with Motobot.....

You would be able to do plenty more runs without the risk of a human being injured, that would help alot to gather data right?

What do people think?

Actually, that has been done in the distant past - like to 1970's

Arthur Ezra and Harry Peterson, in conjunction with our (USA)
national government,  did a BUNCH of crash tests 
(Think: "crash test dummies" ) and filmed the Dummies
riders falling and hitting various objects. 

The tests were fully documented, and many safety
improvements fo bike and rider safety resulted.

We may get the benefit of the MotoGP "Crash Test Dummies" in our future......
Title: Re: Fatalities in LSR
Post by: scott g on December 30, 2017, 11:11:53 AM
Hi Scott,

That was a very nice read, what you wrote....but surely the LSR Speeds are much higher than motogp and thus that is where the risk increases. The fastest speed a rider has fallen of in MotoGp is 200mph and it was Shinya Nakano in 2004. He was fine and was wearing a Shoe helmet. But 200mph is slow in LSR right?

There has got to be some sort of protective gear that gives you that protection when you fall off you know....we got to have room for error....

Thank you Bow !

Current general-use motorcycle helmets are generally
thought to protect the rider's head WELL at up to 20 mph. 
I know that seems low, but that's the current thinking.

I had a friend in San Diego that was a motorcycle safety expert
(Yes, I know that "motorcycle safety" is an oxymoron )
who designed motorcycle safety helmets.

I saw his presentation to a national safety conference in which
he demonstrated (with instrumented crash testing!)a bike helmet
that completely protected the rider's head at up to 100 mph.

The conference was buzzing with questions about how that could
be the done, when the expectable level was only 20 mph !

Well, as it turned out, the helmet was an all-new design,
that was about 24 inches (2 feet !) in diameter, and quite heavy......

Yes it would protect the rider's BRAIN, but the extra weight
(and momentum) would strongly contribute to breaking the rider's neck,
and causing either paralysis or death through spinal injury.

His main point was :
"I can design a helmet that can protect any rider in any impact;
I just have to know ahead (no pun intended) of time WHAT that crash will be...."
Title: Re: Fatalities in LSR
Post by: scott g on December 30, 2017, 11:21:23 AM
Bad idea, the whole point in LSR is that there is some kind of danger factor present, otherwise my mrs would be running records and i would be at home watching Deadliest Catch on tv

I think that risk is part of the allure of our sport:
"You go HOW FAST on a motorcycle ?..........."

At the same time, we might all hope that the
result of a small mistake would not result in death !

NASCAR, MotoGP - and F1 - know that the most valuable
items on the track are not the cars, but the riders and drivers.

Until recently, many promoters assumed that people would
come - and pay - to watch racing either in person or on Television,
no matter who was in the car or on the bike.

Current thinking is that most fans identify with the Brand
and the Vehicle, but the most powerful attachment is to
the person behind the bars - or the steering wheel.

That makes the "talent" the object most needing protection.

Manufacturers, teams sand vehicles come and go.

The most talent endures, and is a marketable quantity.

It's the PEOPLE that are important !
Title: Re: Fatalities in LSR
Post by: FlaminRoo on December 30, 2017, 02:50:45 PM
Interesting topic,, one can draw the conclusion that all studies held into motorcycle safety have been conducted with regard to the general road (street, highway) or enclosed race track enviorment, with riders exposed to the elements (no fully streamlined machines),,

On observation, LandSpeed presents two distinct enviorments, both with their distinct safety history,,



Title: Re: Fatalities in LSR
Post by: scott g on December 30, 2017, 03:46:56 PM
Interesting topic,, one can draw the conclusion that all studies held into motorcycle safety have been conducted with regard to the general road (street, highway) or enclosed race track enviorment, with riders exposed to the elements (no fully streamlined machines),,

On observation, LandSpeed presents two distinct enviorments, both with their distinct safety history,,

Very good points, all !

The great, wide and enduring studies done in the USA
and Europe are primarily funded by the national governments.
 (I know of studies done in the UK, USA and Germany.
 I think there have also been studies in OZ and Canada.)

Since the big governments have little professional interest in racing,
that leaves the street bikes to be studied; in all their variety
and the riders, in all their many forms.  The vehicles they
 interact with, bicycles, cars, SUV's, vans, trucks and Semi's -
even other motorcycles, are part of the STREET equations.

Racing organizations are mostly left to themselves; largely
since 50 racing deaths draw less official notice than 4,500 street deaths. 

That and racing guarantees a larger
portion of "assumed risk" by participation.

In the USA, the LSR organizations are often surprisingly well equipped
to handle tragedy........Until recently, the SCTA had a staff of
professionally-trained accident investigators, and made a
habit of impounding involved vehicles,
for examination post-accident.

The ECTA had racers similarly trained,
and willing to help with investigations.

The Loring police department has had
special motorcycle crash investigation training too.

The "track day" contingent of Texas,
Arizona, Mojave etc. I don't know about.

The results of the investigations - industry
wide - are rarely published to the interested public.


Hard to learn from that...............
Title: Re: Fatalities in LSR
Post by: scott g on January 05, 2018, 11:02:38 AM
Just read a wonderful phrase
in a Tom Clancy novel..........

"Do you know that ?"

"No, I don't, but I don't know
it with great authority !
"


One of the good points of experience
is supposed to be that we learn from our mistakes,
 and improve our performance over time.

That is not always the case.

Some 40 years ago, my wife and I took
the Harley out for a weekend “poker run”
with a local bike club.  At one of the stops,
a Honda Gold Wing rider was remarking about how
he had “20 years experience riding bikes.”

My wife Ellen had been watching this guy as we rode. 

She remarked quietly to me going down the road:
“He doesn’t have 20 years riding experience……
he has one year of experience, repeated 20 times.”

If we do not learn from experience,
than what good is it ?

This year, a well-known LSR motorcycle competitor
competitor crashed within sight of the start line, o
n a fresh course on his first run of the day.

This rider, otherwise well known and respected had run
 over 250mph at that track on a number of occasions. 

In fact, he had been over 250 mph on at least two(2)
other tracks, and had crashed at both of those tracks too !

Maybe experience is more than repetition………….

Title: Re: Fatalities in LSR
Post by: scott g on March 22, 2018, 03:53:24 PM
Valerie Thompson, the world's fastest Woman motorcycle rider
@ 300+ mph has upped her "best speed" to a reported 343mph.

Unfortunately, she crashed her #7 BUB streamliner in the attempt.

She walked away, and may have broken no bones.

Not so good for the liner........................

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yl8NDTyeHqg&feature=share

As you can see in the slo-mo portion, the liner was bent badly in several directions,
and took a direct impact to the top of the roll cage.

Good practice would require a complete strip of the body/chassis
and examination for cracks.  There is probably a lot of concealed
damage inside, due to the bending. 

Tubes, hoses and drive-line parts may be UN-repairable............

This bike has several times been the fastest bike in the world,
 and it would be a great disappointment if it is a write-off......................
Title: Re: Fatalities in LSR
Post by: MJ Williams on March 22, 2018, 04:27:19 PM
Looking at the crash it appears the chute deployed and pulled the 'liner in a straight line and kept it from tumbling, the result would have been way different if it tumbled.
I'm curious if there is an "oh shit" sensor that deploys the chute automatically when it's parameters are exceeded or if Val pulled the chute, which would have been a super human reaction with all that was going on.
Either way good on her for riding it out and Dennis for building something that gives the rider a chance.
Title: Re: Fatalities in LSR
Post by: FlaminRoo on March 23, 2018, 04:11:05 PM
MJ, it is a requirement that streamliners have a "tip over" switch that activates the chute when the machine exceeds a certin angle (sorry cant remember what that angle is),,

 As observed, it definatly played its part in this incedent  :)
Title: Re: Fatalities in LSR
Post by: scott g on April 22, 2018, 10:51:27 AM

 

PAVEMENT PARALYSIS

 

The Crisis in Pavement LSR:  67% of deaths,

 and a majority of serious injuries caused by

“Running Long” into shutdown area.


Although almost all types of cars and motorcycles have situations
where they “power on” past the last timing light, they usually
don't go very far, and rarely on pavement. 

There are few instances of injury to anybody EXCEPT
sit-on motorcycle riders in this situation. 

The cars that “run long” are usually dealing with brake failure
or parachute failure, and do NOT power all the way off
the end of the track, and into the runoff.

 

Sit on motorcycles seem to be the only competitors
that power past the finish line, past the end of the pavement,
and into the (typically) grassy areas at the end of the track.

 

Why are they doing this, and killing themselves at such an alarming rate ?............

 

How is it that the SCTA, with more than 75 years at Muroc,
El Mirage and Bonneville have NEVER had a fatality of this type,
 and in only about 10 years, six brave men have lost their lives in pavement racing ?

 

­­­­­­­­­­­­­­­­­­­­­­­­­­___________________________________________________________

 

2018 started with two motorcycles “running long” in two different meets: one rider died, and the 2nd rider was medevac’d by helicopter, seriously injured and extensively hospitalized.

 The riders, men aged 46 and 60, were in normal health at the start of their races, and seemed in full control of their bikes until the time for the bikes to be “shut down” at the end of the race.  Both riders failed to decelerate at the normal time and place, and both continued off the ends of their tracks at full throttle, Partridge to his death.

 


At the Texas mile, during the Victoria Texas mile LSR meeting March 24-26, 2018, Phillip Steward 46, “ran long” in the one mile race, and kept the power on an additional 3920 feet (about ¾ mile), and powered into the grass run-off area. His turbo race bike tumbled to a stop in the run-off area after the end of the pavement.

 

Knowledgeable personal report that Steward’s Stage two RCC turbo Suzuki Hayabusa is well capable of 220-240 mph, and is a very serious race motorcycle.

 

 

HUSSAIN ALSOWAIGH An associate of Steward, and the Texas Mile Motorcycle track record holder at 262 mph reports:

 

”His Name is  Philip Steward

This is the what happen:
Emergency personnel at the end of the track that witness the accident said he passed the mile marker but stayed on the throttle for a little further then he should have then couldn't get the bike to stop in time before going into the grass at the end of the runway and loosing it in the grass.

His speed at the mile marker was 197 mile by the time he went to the grass I think 220+ mile.
Datalogger shows that he stay on the throttle all the way to the 6 gears  till the kill switch came off.

 

PHILIP IS 47 years old, he was riding stage 2 Rcc turbo Busa.

Emergency man said he almost make it to the fence at the end of grass, when I was talking to Philip two days ago he said he black out don’t remember anything.

Thanks
HUSSAIN ALSOWAIGH.”

 

At the Mojave Mile, the deceased rider, 60-year-old Timothy Scott Partridge of Draper, Utah crashed into a security fence during a racing event at the Mojave Airport.  Eye witnesses report Partridge, who was riding a borrowed Kawasaki H2 supercharged motorcycle, maintained full throttle through the timing lights.  Without letting off the throttle, Partridge continued past the end of the pavement, and hit – still at full throttle – the barb wire fence almost 1000 feet past the end of the pavement.  The barb wire fence provided security for the airstrip.  The impact with the fence caused the injuries resulting in Partridge’s death.  The rider’s total travel start to finish was approximately 14,000 feet; nearly three (3) miles.  Partridge was competing Saturday in the “Mojave Mile LSR event the weekend of April 14-15, 2018.

 

Partridge’s borrowed Kawasaki H2 motorcycle is considered by aficionados to be a “factory hot rod,” having a supercharger, four cylinders, 1000ccc’s displacement, a full fairing, and double overhead cams with four valves per cylinder and a top speed variously estimated at 206 to 222 mph in basically stock form.  The modern H2 It is universally considered the fastest production street motorcycle in the world.

 

Partridge’s friend, Multiple 200 Club member SCOTT HORNER reports:

 

"Tim Partridge was on a borrowed H2
and ran out the back door never lifted.

Initial impact with a barb wire fence did him in."

 

Multiple 200-club member Erin Hunter Sills reports:

"...the event did a very good job of managing safety on Sunday.

They implemented a couple of new procedures that were smart.
For example, at the start line they had the rider hold the front brake
and try to roll the bike forward so that they
are sure that no one has spread to break pads.

They also had a very stern discussion with all
of the motorcyclists about situational awareness,
and ensuring no one was riding with their head
tucked down using white lines on the runway
as a guide rather than looking up.

They also have everyone run course, at 25 miles an hour,
so that they could very clearly see
what all the markers along the course work.

 I would complement Mike and Marsha Borders on
the procedures that they implemented.

I’m sorry that they have to..."

 

______________________________________

 



       FATAL and POTENTIALLY FATAL
  INCIDENTS in PAVEMENT LSR EVENTS.

                        2008-2018

SIT-ON TYPE MOTORCYCLES


1)   Karl Gunter – - - - - shutdown – Texas Mile - survived
2)   Billy Shoemaker – shutdown – Texas Mile - survived
3a) Bill Warner – - - - -  shutdown – Texas Mile - survived
4)   Jerry Wayne Lyons - track ------- Texas Mile -  DIED

3b)  Bill Warner –-   shutdown – ECTA Maxton  - survived
3c)  Bill Warner – -  shutdown – ECTA Maxton  - survived
5)    Guy Lombardi     -shutdown – ECTA – Maxton - DIED
6)    Dave Owen –  --  -shutdown – ECTA – Maxton – DIED
7)    T J Cannon----- -  track - ECTA – Maxton – survived
VIII) Debbie Dross – shutdown - ECTA – Maxton - survived

9)    Gerald Deneau –shutdown - ECTA – Wilmington - DIED
10)  Donna Timney- shutdown – ECTA – Wilmington – survived
3d)  Bill Warner  - - -track and trackside – Loring - DIED
11)  John Noonan –    track – Mojave mile – survived

12)  Tim Partridge - …shutdown – Mojave Mile – DIED

13)   Philip Stewart…shutdown -  Texas Mile- survived

Short summary:

Sixteen (16)  incidents
Fourteen (14) individuals involved

Twelve (12) involved shutdown areas
Ten (10) year time span
Six (6) deaths

Contrast:

Several incidents at Bonneville
and El Mirage – zero (0) deaths

 

It is notable that the ONLY serious LSR organization NOT represented in this shutdown situation is the Southern California Timing Association (SCTA).

 

Whatever they are doing, it is working !
Title: Re: Fatalities in LSR
Post by: firemanjim on April 22, 2018, 02:07:56 PM
Scott, pretty hard pressed to have any incident like this at a SCTA event, at El Mirage you "go out the back door" and off onto the lakebed, and get a good scolding , but not really anything to hit. And at Speedweek etc you may eventually run into mud---
Title: Re: Fatalities in LSR
Post by: scott g on April 22, 2018, 03:09:51 PM
Scott, pretty hard pressed to have any incident like this at a SCTA event,
at El Mirage you "go out the back door" and off onto the lakebed, and get a good scolding ,
but not really anything to hit. And at Speedweek etc you may eventually run into mud---

Yes Jim, quite correct.

I think the difference - other than having
 less to hit - is that the pavement folks
 are  just NOT SHUTTING OFF !

WHAT are they thinking ?
Title: Re: Fatalities in LSR
Post by: MJ Williams on April 23, 2018, 01:12:21 PM
Scott, I would also like to know what they were thinking. I was crewing for Tim at the Mojave event and still am stunned by how things played out.
The night before at dinner I was discussing the crashes in TX and how "bush league" it is that people run off the end of the track under power, how could that happen, that doesn't happen at any other racing organization (drag, road, motocross) that I have been with, etc.
Saturday before he goes out all is calm I remind him that we have all weekend to reach his goals, take an easy pass on a new to him bike, all the usual stuff to remind your rider of on the first pass. Then I watch him go through the traps and not lift.
Tim had run at Mojave several times in the past, run bikes and cars at Bonneville so in many ways it doesn't make sense.
In my entirely unscientific and unknowable opinion it is (was) a case of tunnel vision, situational awareness, the Bonneville tunnel, you pick your own term.
I'm sad for Tim's death, like all in the community, but more upset that I really don't know how it happened and how it can be prevented 100% in the future. 
Title: Re: Fatalities in LSR
Post by: scott g on April 23, 2018, 01:30:21 PM
... Then I watch him go through the traps and not lift.
Tim had run at Mojave several times in the past, run bikes and cars at Bonneville so in many ways it doesn't make sense.
In my entirely unscientific and unknowable opinion it is (was) a case of tunnel vision, situational awareness, the Bonneville tunnel, you pick your own term.
I'm sad for Tim's death, like all in the community, but more upset that I really don't know how it happened and how it can be prevented 100% in the future.

Thanks for offering your observations MJ;
certainly hard in this situation.........

Why are they doing this, and killing themselves at such an alarming rate ?............

Yes, this all seems so unknowable, and chilling.

Here was somebody that SHOULD have known
what to do, and when to do it.

Lost, and for no reason................

Also to think about:  Could it happen to each of us ?

I have been racing at Bonneville since 1973.

In the spring of 2006, I would have said
"That would NEVER happen to me !"

After a "situation" developed for me at something
over 210 mph that 2006 Speedweek, I thought,
"Yes, that could happen to me, too."

I could have died for a little piece of paper...........

I have not ridden over 250 mph since......
Title: Re: Fatalities in LSR
Post by: speedduck on April 23, 2018, 02:12:43 PM
I would say, if mr Partridge was so experienced rider, there are not so many options what could have happened,
Even if you are not watching any signs, where the finish line is, you know when the mile is up, when you have good feel to it.
Medical condition ?
 
Title: Re: Fatalities in LSR
Post by: Ali123 on April 24, 2018, 01:37:07 AM
I think ONE thing they could do would be have the racer be able to communicate with their crew WHILE they are racing..... maybe if someone YELLED in their ear.... the "tunnel" would disappear.... some simple Bluetooth communications... that would tells us that it wasn't a medical event at least... or at least that they can talk.... just a thought...... no?
Title: Re: Fatalities in LSR
Post by: RansomT on April 24, 2018, 08:57:37 AM
class 1 bluetooth only has a 300 foot range, assuming no electronic interference.
Title: Re: Fatalities in LSR
Post by: Ali123 on April 24, 2018, 01:51:59 PM
I hear ya.... but don't u agree THAT would be a great way to eliminate the medical condition/ possible blacking out issue...,. being able to communicate with the racer while riding it....... we gotta have a way to do this... nascar does
Title: Re: Fatalities in LSR
Post by: FlaminRoo on April 24, 2018, 05:47:32 PM
Clearly defined (In Ya Face!!!) "Finish Area",,

The situation of a rider looking down at the track, following the white line, "at speed," is absolutely "STUPID",, there is no extra speed to be gained from this pratice,, "Riders "Vision" must be forward for the entireity of the pass",,

Question? :- Have there been cars that have gone out the back door ??
Title: Re: Fatalities in LSR
Post by: Ali123 on April 24, 2018, 06:15:37 PM
no... but driving a car inside a cabin is a little different... motorcycle riding is a visceral experience.. kinda like sex.... with oneself.. it has a clearly defined ending.. but with a 22 year old stunner... its entirely something else.... and furthermore... it could verty well be that these riders are blacking out... we dunno... but what I am saying is that IF THEY COULD HEAR SOMEONE YELLING AT THEM IN THEIR EAR AND RESPOND... then we KNOW its not a medical event.... and furthermore.. it wsuld snap them outta that tunnel vision... this would rule out a medical event if nothing else
Title: Re: Fatalities in LSR
Post by: Oz Booster on April 24, 2018, 06:26:37 PM
With the effects available these days it would not be difficult to have a virtual checked flag to ride through or a virtual brick wall , whichever gets your attention more
Title: Re: Fatalities in LSR
Post by: FlaminRoo on April 24, 2018, 07:16:20 PM
I like your analogy Ali123, circumstances would depend on who was yelling at ya, the 22yo stunner, or her irate boyfriend LOL,,,

Title: Re: Fatalities in LSR
Post by: Ali123 on April 24, 2018, 09:38:49 PM
all this talk about the 22 yr old stunner and "running out the back door"    I gotta go.
Title: Re: Fatalities in LSR
Post by: scott g on April 25, 2018, 04:15:49 PM
"Your tunnel vision narrows until it's like a sniper rifle," Eisenberg tells me by phone, recounting the events of his harrowing crash at Elvington Airfield in Yorkshire, in the northern part of England. "Because of that, I didn't see the finish flags to the right. And I was doing 400 feet a second."

By the time Eisenberg realized his mistake, he'd already lost 1000 feet of stopping distance. "All I remember was the grass at the end of the runway coming up, and me going, 'oh shit,' and thinking, what can I do? Do I slam the brakes on, and slide along the concrete at 400 feet a second, ripping all my skin, bones, everything off? Or do I hit the end of the runway and basically pray to the powers that be?


https://www.roadandtrack.com/motorsports/a12253269/man-pronounced-dead-after-234-mph-motorcycle-crash-pursues-new-land-speed-record/

Title: Re: Fatalities in LSR
Post by: speedduck on April 26, 2018, 10:49:57 AM
I been down the Elvington track few times and dont remember having hard time to see the finish line, its so personal experience.

We had on our local track, a fire truck with flashing lights on , sitting little further to the right from track , and we cant see it coming near to the finish line, but if you have , not so big, colourful flags on the track, they cant be missed.
Title: Re: Fatalities in LSR
Post by: speedduck on April 26, 2018, 11:00:01 AM
See here, this is what they use in Sweden, at 57s on both sides of track there are tall flags, cannot be missed,

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mcR_Q7AF1Eg
Title: Re: Fatalities in LSR
Post by: Frank06 on April 27, 2018, 12:30:30 PM
Could folks talk about what they do in shutdown?  I understand the possibility of not seeing flags, placards, lights, etc. and feel that is an area that can always be improved.  But I've heard people talk about shutting off and sitting up right away.  I don't have near the experience of most of the posters in this thread but I do know that wind force at high speeds is very significant.  Shane posted a video last year showing his leg coming off the peg at high speed.  I can imagine someone trying to hang on and being unable to close the throttle.  I can see losing your grip on one bar and accidentally countersteering off course.

Curious about what others do....

Title: Re: Fatalities in LSR
Post by: speedduck on April 27, 2018, 03:02:51 PM
After i had two cracked front discs i started to sit up pretty early and then hit the brakes, using also rear brake,
you just get a good grip on the bars and hold on,

When i started to prepare a turbobike for the mile, i thought i could lend it to couple good friends and share the experience,
but when i ended up with a 250+mph bike the plan changed, i cant give it to someone who did not go the same route, grow into riding this particular bike,
When start the braking on the finish line, if something goes wrong you know who tightened the bolts, filled the brake fluid reservoir and checked tyre pressures, its your own fault if the bike fails.

Title: Re: Fatalities in LSR
Post by: scott g on April 29, 2018, 01:21:24 PM
And yes, we will soon
update the list of "incidents" to include:

Brenda Sue Carver's frightening episode at Loring,
Guy Caputo's "can't believe he lived" moment at Wilmington,
and mostly we are waiting on the NAME of the man
on the Harley helicoptered out of the Texas mile in Victoria.
Title: Re: Fatalities in LSR
Post by: RansomT on April 29, 2018, 07:37:07 PM
Here is an article about it and even a picture, but no name ...


https://www.victoriaadvocate.com/news/two-motorcyclists-seriously-hurt-at-texas-mile/article_882809bc-307e-11e8-8372-43bd445f545d.html (https://www.victoriaadvocate.com/news/two-motorcyclists-seriously-hurt-at-texas-mile/article_882809bc-307e-11e8-8372-43bd445f545d.html)
Title: Re: Fatalities in LSR
Post by: speedduck on April 30, 2018, 05:23:25 AM
This is from that article,

" if you’re going at a high rate of speed, blow a motor and something locks up and you go into a skid "

I heard that many times, but has it happened to anybody ?

I`ve blown a motor, transmission and chains, but never locked up anything, rear tyre or , (what)
Title: Re: Fatalities in LSR
Post by: Frank06 on April 30, 2018, 07:17:23 AM
I've had a rear tire lock up on a street bike at about 50 mph (GT550 - broken con rod jammed into the cases); thank goodness for Suzuki clutches.

Does anyone know what kind of bike that is in the photos in that article?  All I can see is big rear tire and skinny front tire and what looks like two pipes.  Is it the H-D?
Title: Re: Fatalities in LSR
Post by: scott g on April 30, 2018, 04:06:13 PM
Thank you Ransom !

I reached out to the Writer who
crafted the newspaper article
about the crash, and included
the still photographs.

She said that the Texas Mile
will not release the name.....

Tough duty when they won't
give names to the paper !
Title: Re: Fatalities in LSR
Post by: scott g on April 30, 2018, 04:09:25 PM


I`ve blown a motor, transmission and chains,
 but never locked up anything, rear tyre or , (what)


If you lock up a rear wheel, or transmission,
the clutch is of no use, the tyre just skids.

If you are skidding at 200 mph,
 it might be that the tire will wear through,
and the air inside the tire mixes with the outside air,
and the handling degrades.....................
Title: Re: Fatalities in LSR
Post by: scott g on May 01, 2018, 06:07:03 PM
       FATAL and POTENTIALLY FATAL
  INCIDENTS in PAVEMENT LSR EVENTS.

                        2008-04/2018

SIT-ON TYPE MOTORCYCLES


1)   Karl Gunter – - - - - shutdown – Texas Mile - survived
2)   Billy Shoemaker – shutdown – Texas Mile - survived
3)   Bill Warner – - - - -  shutdown – Texas Mile - survived
4)   Jerry Wayne Lyons - track ------- Texas Mile -  DIED
5)   Philip Stewart…shutdown -  Texas Mile- survived
6)   Kevin Schutt.........track.....Texas mile...survived

7)  Bill Warner –-   shutdown – ECTA Maxton  - survived
8)  Bill Warner – -  shutdown – ECTA Maxton  - survived
9)    Guy Lombardi     -shutdown – ECTA – Maxton - DIED
10)    Dave Owen –  --  -shutdown – ECTA – Maxton – DIED
11)    T J Cannon----- -  track - ECTA – Maxton – survived
12) Debbie Dross – shutdown - ECTA – Maxton - survived
13)    Gerald Deneau –shutdown - ECTA – Wilmington - DIED
14)  Donna Timney- shutdown – ECTA – Wilmington – survived
15) Guy Caputo - track..............ECTA – Wilmington – survived

16)  John Noonan –    track – Mojave mile – survived
17)  Tim Partridge - …shutdown – Mojave Mile – DIED

18)  Bill Warner  - - -track and trackside – Loring - DIED



Short summary:

eighteen (18)  incidents
fifteen (15) individuals involved

twelve (12) involved shutdown areas
Ten (10) year time span
Six (6) deaths

Contrast:

Several incidents at Bonneville
and El Mirage – zero (0) deaths

Title: Re: Fatalities in LSR
Post by: Frank06 on May 01, 2018, 07:18:36 PM
Adding Brenda Sue's accident changes the numbers slightly but the conclusion doesn't change.

Has anybody ever compiled a list of tracks and their respective shutdown areas?
Title: Re: Fatalities in LSR
Post by: Oz Booster on May 02, 2018, 02:44:37 AM
Scott, while no deaths thankfully there are enough accidents on the salt and dirt that i think its just luck nobody has landed in a ,manner to cause a major life threatening injury

And in the mile events, a lot more than 18 incidents  , depending where you draw the line on severity (again pretty much luck of the draw like the comment above), Dean, for example ,or a few at Colorado that needed hospital  after shut down incidents (myself included :(  ) 
Title: Re: Fatalities in LSR
Post by: firemanjim on May 02, 2018, 11:14:05 AM
There have been several cars off the end at Mojave, and more than a few at Colorado.
Title: Re: Fatalities in LSR
Post by: FlaminRoo on May 02, 2018, 07:21:31 PM
There have been several cars off the end at Mojave, and more than a few at Colorado.

I would suggest compiling the reasons/excuses "All" particeptents give for running out the back door,, this will give the opptunity to help target on weather it was brain fade, brake fade or whatever ???
Title: Re: Fatalities in LSR
Post by: scott g on May 11, 2018, 04:54:04 AM


Has anybody ever compiled a list of tracks
 and their respective shutdown areas?


I do not believe anybody has done that,
and it would probably be a nice "project"
for somebody..................

In the meantime, someone can use google
earth to look at the few remaining tracks to
 get an estimate of the distances available.


Title: Re: Fatalities in LSR
Post by: Ali123 on May 12, 2018, 08:12:13 PM
this is a great idea... maybe the best idea to come from this thread
Title: Re: Fatalities in LSR
Post by: Nosgsx1300 on May 13, 2018, 03:43:31 AM
AI  are you planning on attending Loring this year?
Title: Re: Fatalities in LSR
Post by: Frank06 on May 13, 2018, 04:34:11 AM
I've started compiling a list of some of the tracks.  I hope to generate a spreadsheet showing how much distance is consumed if you wait a certain distance past the finish before starting to brake (obviously as a function of speed), and what kind of deceleration is required at that point to get slowed down enough to safely exit.  Summer is here though and I haven't done much the past couple of weeks.

Title: Re: Fatalities in LSR
Post by: fj1289 on May 19, 2018, 10:59:24 AM
I think ONE thing they could do would be have the racer be able to communicate with their crew WHILE they are racing..... maybe if someone YELLED in their ear.... the "tunnel" would disappear.... some simple Bluetooth communications... that would tells us that it wasn't a medical event at least... or at least that they can talk.... just a thought...... no?

I agree this could be a good “alarm system” - even if it is just an alarm of some type triggered by the finish line   

BUT it still may not be enough for all situations.  Aircraft with retractable landing gear have warning systems (usually a LOUD gear warning horn) designed to alert the pilot if they attempt to land gear up.  There have been several instances in investigations where the pilot responds that they couldn’t hear the controller in the tower telling them to go-around (not land) because they couldn’t hear them over the horn!

Tunnel vision type episodes are deadly in aviation too - and not just in the landing phase. 

We are putting together a second bike this year for my son.  He’s 19 and has ridden dirt bikes - not street bikes.  I’ve been working out how to train him up - how to build the experiences necessary for him to start racing safely and smartly.  And to make sure he knows that every run can be aborted and tried again - even if you have to wait another year.   
Title: Re: Fatalities in LSR
Post by: scott g on May 23, 2018, 06:14:30 PM
Not everybody just holds it open......................

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XTfKJFrUi9w
Title: Re: Fatalities in LSR
Post by: Ali123 on May 24, 2018, 04:01:13 PM
AI  are you planning on attending Loring this year?
u askin me? ive never been.......
Title: Re: Fatalities in LSR
Post by: scott g on June 20, 2018, 10:15:36 AM
The question of "why" keeps coming up.

I was recently asked by another Motorcycle Safety Professional:

"     I wonder if the April fatality had any bearing on the decision by
the airport owners to not allow speed trials?  Sad, it was a well run
event.  When Mike and Marsha promoted open road racing their events were
always a cut above. "


I responded:

We inside the sport have a little different view of
"running long" than do outsiders. 
We may be hampered by our familiarity.

We can understand the "fixation,"
and the "loss of focus."

From a purely operational view, it is not always
 creditable why a rider would not "shut off."

If the throttle is "stiff," just twist it closed. 
All modern bikes have dual cables for just this reason.

If the bike continues to "race the engine,"  hit the kill button. 
Cars do not have kill buttons, and really don't need them. 
"stuck throttles" are WHY bikes have kill buttons in the first place.

If the throttle fails, and the kill button fails, pull in the clutch lever.
Sure it's hard to do that, and "lose" the engine to over revving,
but what's the alternative ?

What are the odds of ALL THREE safety systems failing ?

a mechanical engineer and statistician could tell us.

It would be near zero.

These needless deaths and crashes, in the face of the above,
must be telling "outsiders" that either bikes cannot be operated safely;
or we cannot police riders to do so.

In either case, these things represent unacceptable risk.

It is easy to understand an insurer or a landlord
frowning on continuing the unsafe activity.

It could be the final point in a discussion
of whether or not to renew a contract.............

Happy Fathers Day to all........

Scott
Title: Re: Fatalities in LSR
Post by: Frank06 on June 21, 2018, 08:00:20 AM
Scott, do you know if anybody has ever compiled a list of Best Practices for riding LSR events?  I've heard different techniques mentioned by different folks once through the lights.  I suspect we all do what we think is "best" for our particular circumstances but I've heard some scary things.

Without a proper accident investigation following a crash it's hard to implement change.  Maybe we should make a list of risky actions or situations and work from that to develop some sort of recommendation or standard.

??
Title: Re: Fatalities in LSR
Post by: FlaminRoo on June 22, 2018, 05:12:48 PM
Taken from a post on the Landspeed.com site regards motorcycles running off end of track at the Mojave Mile,,

"Thay go into the "Bonneville Tuck" and stare at the ground through their armpit instead of looking ahead at the 15' flags marking every quarter mile, the six RED flags marking the finish line, AND the three 10' flashing red LED light towers spaced 600' apart and which are so bright you can see them from the startline",, etc,etc,,



Title: Re: Fatalities in LSR
Post by: scott g on June 23, 2018, 09:38:32 AM
Scott, do you know if anybody has ever compiled a list of Best Practices for riding LSR events? 

I've heard different techniques mentioned by different folks once through the lights. 

I suspect we all do what we think is "best" for our particular circumstances
but I've heard some scary things.



Thanks for a great observation, 06..............

The concept of "best practices" is moving quickly from
nothing to almost every industry and profession.

"best practice" is applied to changing a flat on your car
to medical operations, traffic planning and building design.

The process of deciding the "best practice" is sometimes
thorny, but with perseverance, can be arrived at.

I have never seen the term Best Practices applied to riding LSR,
but there are plenty of mentions in the literature.

About 10-15 years ago, it was made a rule that riders MUST
keep both hands on the bars, except for emergencies. 
This rule was reflected in other associations.

More thinking in my next post.
Title: Re: Fatalities in LSR
Post by: scott g on June 23, 2018, 09:55:00 AM
Taken from a post on the Landspeed.com site regards motorcycles running off end of track at the Mojave Mile,,

"Thay go into the "Bonneville Tuck" and stare at the ground through their armpit instead of looking ahead at the 15' flags marking every quarter mile, the six RED flags marking the finish line, AND the three 10' flashing red LED light towers spaced 600' apart and which are so bright you can see them from the startline",, etc,etc,,

Good research Roo...............

I think we benefit by the FULL quote:

"What makes the airport runway races so deadly for motorcyclists?

Neither.

They go into the "Bonneville Tuck" and stare at the ground through their armpit instead of looking ahead at the 15' flags marking every quarter mile, the six RED 15' flags marking the finish line, AND the three 10' flashing red LED light towers spaced 600' apart telling them the run is over and which are so bright you can see them from the starting line.  The fact that the last two riders who have gone off did this is not in dispute; we watched them from the finish line until they went off, as we do for all racers.  Neither one of them ever looked up until it was too late.  The 2016 rider realized his mistake about 100' from the end of the runway and attempted a get-off that crippled him but probably saved his life.

I should also mention that both riders were veterans of Mojave and were 200 mph club members."
[/u]

Also, to correct an earlier poster, at Mojave only one car has gone off the runway at our events, a NASCAR who realized his mistake and skidded through the dirt unharmed, but stopped before the fence and wrecked the bottom of his car.

Underlining mine.

Certainly the "Head down" riding position triggers a
LOT of discussion; both in favor and opposed.

In favor is that it reduces air resistance and alloys higher speeds.
Opposing of course is that the rider cannot (directly) see where he is going.

Dave Owen practiced the "Head down" style in a wind tunnel,
and convinced himself that it was worth it.

My research show some version of this technique AT LEAST
as far back as the 1930's - almost 100 years.

Is it "unsafe ?"

Well, "safe" and "unsafe" is hard to discuss. 
"More safe" and "less safe" discussions are more productive.

For swimming, to avoid the "danger" of drowning,
don't go near the water.
Eliminate swimming altogether; that's "safe."
Eliminate fishing or riding in boats, since that presents
a chance to be in the water and drowning.(NOT safe)

Or, you could learn about water safety, and learn to swim................

A continuum of very safe to very unsafe.............

For pavement LSR
Title: Re: Fatalities in LSR
Post by: scott g on June 23, 2018, 10:08:38 AM
Just for a little more emphasis:

"...The fact that the last two riders who have gone off did this is not in dispute; we watched them from the finish line until they went off, as we do for all racers.  Neither one of them ever looked up until it was too late.  The 2016 rider realized his mistake about 100' from the end of the runway and attempted a get-off that crippled him but probably saved his life.I should also mention that both riders were veterans of Mojave and were 200 mph club members..."

06 brought the concept of "Best Practices."

In the above case, IF riding head down is bad practice,
than what we see is a Bad Practice,
that of having the first rider - reported as head down - allowed
to race that way in the first place in 2016 - two years ago.

"BADDER practice" would be allowing rider #2 to REPEAT
 #1's riding posture, and this time die.

Best practice, first of all, would be certainly
to STOP  doing bad practices  !
[/b][/size]
Title: Re: Fatalities in LSR
Post by: scott g on June 23, 2018, 10:18:57 AM
Scott,...
Without a proper accident investigation following a crash it's hard to implement change.  Maybe we should make a list of risky actions or situations and work from that to develop some sort of recommendation or standard..."

??

There we are !

Find the cause (Do an accident reconstruction)

Make the change ( Institute Best Practices)

Doesn't seem that hard, does it..................

In the 2016 crash at Mojave mentioned above,
I NEVER saw ANY accident investigations, NEVER
found out what the injury was, and NEVER saw mention
that the "head down" posture was at fault..........

How you gonna fix things if you
don't know what went wrong ?!
Title: Re: Fatalities in LSR
Post by: scott g on June 24, 2018, 08:34:03 PM
Although the loss of our various pavement LSR tracks
MAY be due to the number and type of racing fatalities,
we cannot be sure.  Certainly, the “landlord” might want
to name other reasons, and prevent “blowback.”  It might
 also be because insurance companies will not insure the risks.

There is, however an interesting trend.

In the ECTA, racing was uninterrupted from
1995 until the loss of the track in 2011.

The ECTA’s initial two fatalities occurred in 2008,
and were of the “run long” type, which MIGHT have
 been riders doing things they had been instructed NOT to do.

A three (3) year lapse between the fatalities and the loss of the track.

(Insurance companies can understand the loss-by-fatality. 
Riders dying when braking the associations stated rules
represents a loss the companies have NOT considering when
writing the policy and quoting the rates….)

In Ohio, racing began in 2012, and the association
almost immediately suffered it’s third “run long” fatality. 
The track lease was withdrawn rather quickly.

At the Mojave Mile, the track lease was lost
within MONTHS of their “run long” fatality.

So the delay between the fatalities and the
closing of the track decreased
 from three years, to three MONTHS.

Are the insurance companies getting “sensitized ?”

If associations could eliminate “run long” fatalities,
might we stop losing tracks ?

Title: Re: Fatalities in LSR
Post by: MJ Williams on June 25, 2018, 05:31:08 PM
My $.02 on the "head down" position being the cause of the accidents at Mojave is that it was not the root cause of the accidents.
I knew a tiny bit about both riders that went long and the commonality between the 2 they would get tunnel vision focus and not even see what was happening more than 5 foot in front of them let alone the red flags and flashing lights beside the track.

While being head down definitely restricts you field of vision. IMHO you could have had these 2 riders sitting straight up and they would have missed the finish line warnings and probably would have only shut down when they seen the end of the track.

It is impossible to ask Tim what went wrong and Dennis still hasn't recovered memories from 2 weeks before the crash and 2 weeks after. 

Focus is like gravity, most of the time its your friend but when it isn't, stuff goes bad quickly.
Title: Re: Fatalities in LSR
Post by: Landspeed Larry on June 29, 2018, 07:11:56 AM
Here is a post from a Kawasaki site about running at Mojave this Spring. The first I have seen where the actual cause is mentioned. This was on a ZX-14R   LSL

Got one run in , lost my perspective at the mile marker and shut down . I had no idea how far down the track I was and to be safe, I just got out of it..I actually went thru the trap at 86 mph
 While in staging lanes for 2nd run , motorcycle on the course never got off the throttle. He went off the end of the runway at 200 plus. He was dead before they ever got to him.. the track shut down for the rest of the day so I loaded up and came home. We will probably never know why he stayed on the throttle but my guess is disoriented. If I glanced away from downtrack for even an instant at speed, it took a lot of effort to pinpoint where I was on the track..
Mojave Mile has shut down for good. I have been twice, and both times, riders have ran into the desert at full speed
. The first one lived.but it was real close..
.
Title: Re: Fatalities in LSR
Post by: Frank06 on July 16, 2018, 07:37:49 AM
FWIW, here's a crappy cropped pic of the shutdown area at Loring.  There are four multi-colored flags on each side at the mile and six black and white checkered flats on each side at the 1.5 mile, with two sets of flashing strobes on each side at the 1.5 mile.  The only vehicle which went long was a streamliner whose chute failed to deploy.  His front wheels were just off the high abrasion asphalt at the extreme end of the runway (which is about 1000' past regular long shutdown turn off). 

(http://[url=https://flic.kr/p/26rmMTu][img]https://farm2.staticflickr.com/1767/41637445390_a058cdd2ba.jpg)[/url]Loring Shutdown-small (https://flic.kr/p/26rmMTu) by Frank[url=https://flic.kr/p/26rmMTu](https://farm2.staticflickr.com/1767/41637445390_a058cdd2ba.jpg) (https://www.flickr.com/photos/biker_ev/)Loring Shutdown-small (https://flic.kr/p/26rmMTu) by Frank (https://www.flickr.com/photos/biker_ev/), on Flickr[/img]
Title: Re: Fatalities in LSR
Post by: Frank06 on July 16, 2018, 07:40:57 AM
The flags and their mounts are all PVC, attached to pieces of plywood screwed into the runway.  They are 200' apart (runway is 300' wide).
Title: Re: Fatalities in LSR
Post by: scott g on July 16, 2018, 03:39:20 PM
Here is a post from a Kawasaki site about running at Mojave this Spring. The first I have seen where the actual cause is mentioned. This was on a ZX-14R   LSL

Got one run in , lost my perspective at the mile marker and shut down . I had no idea how far down the track I was and to be safe, I just got out of it..I actually went thru the trap at 86 mph
 While in staging lanes for 2nd run , motorcycle on the course never got off the throttle. He went off the end of the runway at 200 plus. He was dead before they ever got to him.. the track shut down for the rest of the day so I loaded up and came home. We will probably never know why he stayed on the throttle but my guess is disoriented. If I glanced away from downtrack for even an instant at speed, it took a lot of effort to pinpoint where I was on the track..
Mojave Mile has shut down for good. I have been twice, and both times, riders have ran into the desert at full speed
. The first one lived.but it was real close..
.

Thanks for finding that quotation Larry.

This discussion is all the more poignant with it being
the 5th anniversary of Bill Warner's passing. 

On the bright side, Ralph Hudson posted a 308mph
entry speed in Bolivia almost 5 years to the day of Bill's Anniversary. 

Honor to both of them.

I have researched the history of the "head down" riding style. 
There are references and photo's all the way back to the
board-track era, which in this case is before WWI - so about 100 years.

I think we CANNOT make the case that it is MORE safe
to ride head down, but the real question is: Is it too UNSAFE ?

That will involve some investigation of what it is about the
"head-down" position that is behind the "run long" problem.......

The eye witness quote Larry offers is insightful: 
The end of the track was seen by most folks,
who had no obvious problem stopping appropriately.

The deceased rider did NOT decelerate appropriately -
and maybe not at all, if the eye witness is correct.

I suspect there is a case to be made that VISION problems
 are not the problem.  It may be something else,
like a "brain failure" of some kind.

100 years of investigation of men in combat shows that
many fighters NEVER fired their weapons.  Some of those
reasons involved the soldier "freezing" in place;
incapable of any action whatsoever.

Is that happening in LSR ?

Certainly going down-track at over 200 mph offers
deadly peril - just like wartime for soldiers.

Do these riders have eyes that see,
and brains that comprehend,
and bodies that  fail to act ?
Title: Re: Fatalities in LSR
Post by: MJ Williams on July 19, 2018, 03:45:05 PM
Do these riders have eyes that see,
and brains that comprehend,
and bodies that  fail to act ?

Interesting point that I have not considered. You wonder about pilots that have pancaked into the ground. When you want to honor them you say "he was doing everything he could but run out of space". If you want to speak unkindly you say "he froze up and drove into the ground". 
There is probably razor width thickness truth between the two.
Title: Re: Fatalities in LSR
Post by: FlaminRoo on July 20, 2018, 06:51:27 AM
"I think we CANNOT make the case that it is MORE safe to ride head down, but the real question is : Is it too UNSAFE?"

@ 50mph you cover 73'/second, width of average intersection in the suburbs,,
@ 70 = 117'/sec,,
@ 100 = 147'/sec,,
@ 150 = 220'/sec,,
@ 200 = 293'/sec,,
@ 250 = 367'/second,  more than the length of a football field,,

From a previous reply :- "If I glanced away from down track for even an instant at speed, it took an effort to pinpoint where I was on track"

If it was "SAFE" to ride with head down, we would "NOT" be asking the question  :?