SuzukiHayabusa.org
GENERAL => MAXIMUM OVERDRIVE => Topic started by: Warp12 on October 06, 2013, 09:56:10 AM
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Let's talk about it.
Now, most everyone knows that I feel that the launch (1st 150', say), hardly has an impact...compared to what happens down the track.
So, think about this. If a bike is gaining 2 mph in 300 feet, at the end of the track (stronger than most stock motor bikes), all else being equal, you can only gain 2 mph if the track is 300' longer. Consider that a strong NA bike only gains 5-6 mph in the last 2600' at Loring.
Now, let's look at the launch. Are you losing 300'? Doubtful. Is wheelspin and clutch sliding putting more power down than bogging it and going WOT?? What costs more mph...easing it out and going WOT, or getting sideways and backing out at the 100' mark? These bikes gain speed rapidly on the front half of the track. In 3rd gear you might gain 10 mph in just 150 feet, if not better. 2nd gear even more. I've done some dragstrip testing...it tells me you can just about equal or better a hard launch with a soft one. How many times have you guys seen your ET be crap, but your MPH is pretty darn good?
I am asking that we keep it scientific. We all "feel" faster when we launch hard.
Shane
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From the internet (must be true!):
1) Trap Speed will tell you about your HP to weight.
2) ET will tell you more about traction and your launch.
Of course ET is important to true drag racers, because the winner is the one that gets there first. However, we're not necessarily true drag racers in our attempt to get a power estimate. Honestly, ask 10 guys at the track "What kind of trap speed are you running?" and 8 out of 10 will answer with their ET - to one or two decimal places even. When you say, "No, no, I meant trap speed", they will fumble with a broad estimate with NO decimal places and might even have to pull a time slip out of their pocket to check. Try this question when you're at the track; it's almost funny.
THE DYNAMICS OF TRAP SPEED VS. ET
After running lots of quarter miles, it becomes clear that how well you do in the first 100 feet of the track is KEY to a good time. The last half of the track is KEY to a good speed.
Let's use an example of a stick-shift mini-pickup that on a perfect run, gets a timeslip of 19.50 seconds at 70.00 mph in the quarter.
Imagine that the light turns green, the truck moves two feet and the engine dies for three seconds. After restarting the engine, the driver proceeds to then complete a perfect pass. His time slip would show 22.50 seconds at 69.97 mph. The ET was 3.00 seconds high but the speed was almost unaffected.. why?? It's because his racetrack was 1318 feet long instead of 1320, and in those last two feet this truck usually gains an additional 0.03 mph. However, the clocks recorded the long time. My point? Much of a great ET is made by a great launch.
Now take this truck again, and the driver leaves right on the green light. However, he misses the 3-4 shift when he's at 1250 feet. He coasts for the last 70 feet while trying to find fourth gear. Now instead of accelerating another few mph in this final 70 feet of the track, he decelerates over this distance. His timeslip; 19.51 at 67.83 mph. Note how the et is almost perfect (only off by 0.01 second) but the trap speed is way off (over 2 mph slow)! On a good run, traveling that last 70 feet at an average of 69 mph, would have taken .692 seconds. At a 68 mph avg., that 70 feet takes .682 seconds. That's why his ET only varied by .01 seconds, yet the trap speed was 'way off'. My point here: the end of the track is critical to trap speed; shift rpm, missing a gear... these are the big players.
Hopefully these examples are clear. Neither of these runs are 'perfect' runs, it's just that one has an error at the start, one at the finish and the results are obvious. The start of the track is a big player in the ET, but a small player in the mph. The end of the track is a big player in the mph, but a small player the ET.
My belief is definitely that LSR is the opposite of drag racing. In drag racing, what you do at the start is most important...in LSR, you better do it right on the big end.
Shane
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Great info Shane. HP, Traction and Aero is the Triad to big MPH at the 1 mile. How you use all three of these factors ultimately determines your outcome. I agree with your assessment of using the big end for your MPH. But there comes a point where your machines ability to keep gathering speed based on distance ultimately tells you that you can not waste any distance if your machine has the magic Triad in its favor. For bikes that hit terminal velocity at mid track then launching hard does not help you and you must rely on. HP and Aero for top end speed. But if your machine continues to go faster and pulls hard right thru the traps, then I say launch as hard as you can to maintain traction and continue to apply power from start to finish. Use every bit of track you have.
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Great info Shane. HP, Traction and Aero is the Triad to big MPH at the 1 mile. How you use all three of these factors ultimately determines your outcome. I agree with your assessment of using the big end for your MPH. But there comes a point where your machines ability to keep gathering speed based on distance ultimately tells you that you can not waste any distance if your machine has the magic Triad in its favor. For bikes that hit terminal velocity at mid track then launching hard does not help you and you must rely on. HP and Aero for top end speed. But if your machine continues to go faster and pulls hard right thru the traps, then I say launch as hard as you can to maintain traction and continue to apply power from start to finish. Use every bit of track you have.
That is where I am leaning, Guy. For stock motor bikes, I think focus on tuck and shift points, wot quickly, and you are really there. For a powerful bike, gulping down pavement and gaining mph quickly, that real estate is more critical. I think there is also a point that you can run big mph without a drag start, imo. Sliding the clutch minimizes the power down, and wheelspin hurts you. Even with the fueling, the quicker to WOT (not harder launch) will get you to the 100% tps map more quickly. And that is hp. It is a fine balance. As always, more than one way to skin a cat!!
Shane
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Double post.
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I agree with Guy use every bit of track.
Me?, no pussy footn. I launch it as hard as possible, which is easier to do with land speed gearing. Next week at Mojave I'll be making my first runs using 19/39 for the mile and 19/38 for the 1 1/2 mile. With the high gearing and a lil bit of clutch slippn, the wheel spin at the start is minimal. because of the high gearing the wheelie factor aint there. I won't worry about nuthing except launching as hard as possible and completing the 1-2 shift perfectly, then i start thinking about the tuck, but #1 factor is build momentum. The sooner I go faster, the longer I have to accelerate. JMHO
Dave
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I agree with Guy use every bit of track.
Me?, no pussy footn. I launch it as hard as possible, which is easier to do with land speed gearing. Next week at Mojave I'll be making my first runs using 19/39 for the mile and 19/38 for the 1 1/2 mile. With the high gearing and a lil bit of clutch slippn, the wheel spin at the start is minimal. because of the high gearing the wheelie factor aint there. I won't worry about nuthing except launching as hard as possible and completing the 1-2 shift perfectly, then i start thinking about the tuck, but #1 factor is build momentum. The sooner I go faster, the longer I have to accelerate. JMHO
Dave
Which is more important....your tuck...or "building momentum"? The logged data says that "building momentum" is not gathering much. "Pussy footin" and "dragstrip launch"...different. Show me the data. Average bike...100 feet quicker to 125 mph is probably .1 mph at that mile....if that? Where is your focus?
Does a hard launch mean more mph at the mile? I don't think it always means more mph at the 1/4...based on 1000 dragstrip passes.
Shane
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i suggest taking the 125cc bike or Volkswagen Rabbit off the table.
I think we can all agree that a vehicle which is gaining no mph at the 1/2 is unlikely to benefit from hard launches.
(Although it might be interesting to ask some experienced minimum hp riders for their thoughts)
karl
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1) Trap Speed will tell you about your HP to weight.
i think this pretty well sums it up
the sooner you have the hp to the ground , the faster you will go
think of it like hp/sec ,if in the first second you were putting down 50 hp and you can improve that to 60 hp you will be faster ,same for second and third seconds
bit like a dyno graph looking at area under the line for the run
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You also have to think about, traction/drive down course. LSR tracks aren't prepped like most NHRA tracks so that changes things a lot.
Also, if you over heat the clutch/tire on a hard launch I've seen this cause bikes to slip on the big end. But again, depends on many factors besides just power..
I've also seen some people worry so much about the hard start that the body position gets so out of whack holding on, that any gains they got in the 1/4 or 1/2 or completely lost on the 1-Mile when aero is botched...
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I feel and hope to test soon that and use as much power as possible in the first 1/2 mile.. cause on most turbo busa's everyone turns it down anyways. power will overcome bad tuck to a point. its finding how much and where aero needs attention to be safe.
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You also have to think about, traction/drive down course. LSR tracks aren't prepped like most NHRA tracks so that changes things a lot.
Also, if you over heat the clutch/tire on a hard launch I've seen this cause bikes to slip on the big end. But again, depends on many factors besides just power..
I've also seen some people worry so much about the hard start that the body position gets so out of whack holding on, that any gains they got in the 1/4 or 1/2 or completely lost on the 1-Mile when aero is botched...
Josh is onto something! :D
remember DaveO!!!!! :thumb:
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You also have to think about, traction/drive down course. LSR tracks aren't prepped like most NHRA tracks so that changes things a lot.
Also, if you over heat the clutch/tire on a hard launch I've seen this cause bikes to slip on the big end. But again, depends on many factors besides just power..
I've also seen some people worry so much about the hard start that the body position gets so out of whack holding on, that any gains they got in the 1/4 or 1/2 or completely lost on the 1-Mile when aero is botched...
Josh is onto something! :D
remember DaveO!!!!! :thumb:
LSR tracks are not the best for traction. One of the things that Jason Miller teaches is to get your body position close to set, right from the start. I see this ignored all the time, causing people traction problems....in LSR and at the dragstrip. They are moving all around on the bike in the first 100 feet or so, and the chassis is unsettled and it spins the tire. In my case, I have a major issue with footshifting 1-2, that every time I raise my foot up, the bike wants to wheelie, killing my drive, because my body rises too. So, you know, what works for one person may not work for another. What works for a small, pro-level jockey...maybe not applicable to middle-age, 220 lb, 6'+, average-skill guy. :D
Now, I have to admit, I value not having a bunch of drama on a pass. I don't like "fighting" the bike or the track. I think that when you have your consistency down, and you have mastered your tuck and shift points, then you can start the look at other areas. So, you know there are two things I think we can look at here. One is the hard "dragstrip" style launch where you slide the clutch...and the other is getting the clutch out and WOT as quickly as possible. Dave did it his way, and it was fast, and consistent. Maybe that style won't work for everyone...but it did for him. When I see inconsistent riders focused on their launch, spinning the tire, wheelying...well, I advocate that they focus on the tuck, shift points, and become consistent. I've heard Jason Miller say something to the effect of, "the race is in the 60', but the knowledge is in the consistency".
I like these kind of discussions. You know, I am not going to come in and tell a pro jockey how to go faster (unless they have a bad tuck, lol). But I like to figure out the how AND the why. Then we can all benefit and apply what works for us. :thumb:
Shane
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I like to release the clutch quick, but that means, with turbobike and long gearing, it starts crawling ahead and finally, when boost kicks in, starts to happen. There is plenty of time to get into good tuck.
Can you post pics of good and bad tuck ?
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I like to release the clutch quick, but that means, with turbobike and long gearing, it starts crawling ahead and finally, when boost kicks in, starts to happen. There is plenty of time to get into good tuck.
Can you post pics of good and bad tuck ?
I really depends on the rider. You have to do the best with what you have, lol. In general, elbows in, feet up high and tight, chin down...ass back as far as you can get it. Flatten your back out. "Get small" is often said. A good tuck can leave you very tired from hugging the bike so tight.
A little off-topic, but other, faster guys can add something here!
Shane
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A little off-topic, but other,
faster guys can add something here!
Shane
#__ name__________________________ speed____ track, yr comment1____________________________________________
1 Bill Warner (WildBro) 296.128 LOR13 :angel:****FASTEST MILE****LORING TRACK RECORD****
1.1 Bill Warner (WildBro) 278.6 GOL10 :angel:****GOLIAD TRACK RECORD****
1.2 Bill Warner (WildBro) 274.2 MOJ11 :angel:****MOJAVE TRACK RECORD****
1.3 Bill Warner (WildBro) 272.374 MAX10 :angel:****MAXTON TRACK RECORD****
2 Billy Shoemaker (billyshoe) 269.2 MOJ11
3 Shane Stubbs (Livin1072) 264.375 MAX10
4 Tom Gates (TrickTom1) 261.5 GOL10
5 Lee Shierts 260.288 MAX05
6 Charlie Anstaett (Busa200) 259.856 MAX08
6.1 Billy Shoemaker (billyshoe) 255.7 BEE11 ****BEEVILLE TRACK RECORD****
7 Wayne Pollack 255.543 MAX05
7.1 Bill Warner (WildBro) 255.1 GOL10 :angel:****FASTEST NAKED****
8 Ben Beckert (Beckertb) 252.806 GOL09
9 Scott Guthrie (scottg) 251.147 GOL04
10 John Noonan (SpeedKing) 251.1 MOJ10
11 Jack Frost 250 WOD09 ****WOODBRIDGE TRACK RECORD****
12 Hussain Al-sowaigh 249.6 BEE12
13 Thomas Cronin 249.055 LOR12
14 Terry Kizer (MrTurbo) 247.591 GOL08
15 Dean Sabatinelli (Zrxdean) 245.109 MAX11 ****FASTEST 1000cc****
16 Rich Yancy 244.358 GOL04
17 Walt Kudron (TurboKing) 244.18 MAX07
17.1 Jack Frost 244.1 ELV12 ****ELVINGTON TRACK RECORD****
18 Jennifer Robertson (9secondJen) 243.6 BEE12 ****FASTEST WOMAN****
19 Jo Stevenson (Tinkerbell1710) 243.5 ELV12
20 Mika Syren (speedduck) 243 ELV13
21 Jody Leveille (Nicklecityracing) 242.208 MAX09
22 Mike Grainger 242.09 ELV12
23 Phil Wood 241.9 ELV13
24 Trillium Muir (Nicklecityracing) 241.484 MAX09
25 Don Hass 239.788 MAX11
26 Dave Owen (DaveO) 239.387 GOL08 :angel:
27 Ransom Holbrook (RansomT) 238.6 WIL13 ****FASTEST NITROUS****
28 Mark Deluca (portchop) 238.216 MAX09
29 Shane Wogan 237.2 ELV10
30 Sal Spatafora (TheIceMan) 236.96 MAX07
31 Steve Knecum (knecum) 235.564 MAX01
31.1 Dean Sabatinelli (Zrxdean) 234.09 WIL12 ****WILMINGTON TRACK RECORD****
32 Ken Dunn (Ken 12r) 233.61 ELV12
33 Russ Montgomery (Rustman) 233.059 GOL07
34 John Rockers (Rockafella) 232.655 GOL07
35 Frank Gillebaard 232.1 WOD09
36 Ian Cleminshaw (Zedhed) 231.6 ELV11
37 Becci Ellis (Becci Ellis Angelpaws) 231.1 ELV13
38 Richard Canning 230.6 ELV12
39 Colt "TinTin" Bateman 230.446 LOR12 ****FASTEST NA****
40 Carl Francis (gixxerfixxer) 230.375 GOL06
41 Kevin Mullner 230.157 GOL07
42 Tim Leeper 230.1 BEE13
42.1 Jennifer Robertson (9secondJen) 229.963 LOR13 ****FASTEST NA W/TICKET****
43 Rusty Studer 229.679 MAX07
44 Mark E. Dotson (hayabusalsr) 229.357 WIL13
45 Tony Foster(sleeper450) 229.2 ELV13
46 Mark Gordon (MarkScott) 229.009 GOL09
47 Jason McVicar (Jasontmc) 228.969 GOL08
48 Stuart Morrison 228.9 WOD09
49 Ryan Ostergard (osti33) 228.9 BEE13
50 Guy Caputo (2fast4u2c) 228.803 MAX07
A little tongue in cheek, but of the 50 fastest folks
in the mile, in the WORLD, there are at least 25
that are - or were - members of the board.
Is that a deep bench, or what ?
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If you want to learn about tuck do a salt meeting on a NA bike where you can hold it at its maximum speed for several miles and move yourself around and see changes in rpm or mph
biggest single learning experiance i think i had was doing this on Gary Petersons bike at Gairdiner 05
hand position, knees backside, head, every one made a difference you could see
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If you want to learn about tuck do a salt meeting on a NA bike where you can hold it at its maximum speed for several miles and move yourself around and see changes in rpm or mph
biggest single learning experience i think i had was doing this on Gary Petersons bike at Gairdiner 05
hand position, knees backside, head, every one made a difference you could see
That's what I really like about running on the salt, time to do the adjustments and seeing the results.
1 mile is a long drag race... grip it and twist it and get as small as possible while accelerating as hard as possible.
On a side not WOW I'm down to 40 now.... I think in 2006 I was close to the top 10 :)
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Honestly, ask 10 guys at the track "What kind of trap speed are you running?" and 8 out of 10 will answer with their ET - to one or two decimal places even. When you say, "No, no, I meant trap speed", they will fumble with a broad estimate with NO decimal places and might even have to pull a time slip out of their pocket to check.
I noticed that I get strange looks when I quote a MPH when asked the question at the strip myself. I like seeing how fast I can shoot out the other end through the traps vs ET.
The points made about tuck are right on, especially for heavy hitters. The bike I was on at Houston last time was running very close to being out of power at a half mile. I made a couple of passes concentrating on knee position and found that alone was a 1-3 MPH difference. Using my feet (rocking my ankle forward) to push my knees up into the the bottom of my arms worked best.
Traction is a relative issue, but Houston is very close to what I find at the Baytown strip. Maybe not the first 60 feet, but after that, very close. Chase Field is a whole different story, especially that drop at the 1/8 mile point. You can see or hear it in nearly every video shot there. One long term goals is to run a longer track. I envy you guys that have been able to do that.
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Just from seeing bills runs at loring his 311 pass was a soft launch and his mile passes sounded and looked way more aggressive. Would be nice to have 1/2 mile data on the two cause loring can hook. Just things that I am learning in my quest for 250+
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Just from seeing bills runs at loring his 311 pass was a soft launch and his mile passes sounded and looked way more aggressive. Would be nice to have 1/2 mile data on the two cause loring can hook. Just things that I am learning in my quest for 250+
"the launch" doesn't just mean the 1st 60', it means all the way thru 1st, in 2nd.
NONE of Bill's "launches" were soft. He got started harder than ANY other turbo bike, and it was intentional.
If you were at loring near the starting line for his 311 you heard the his signature 1st gear tire squeal, just like Texas, Mojave.
NO other turbo rider get on it that hard in 1st gear, none.
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Just from seeing bills runs at loring his 311 pass was a soft launch
and his mile passes sounded and looked way more aggressive.
Would be nice to have 1/2 mile data on the two cause loring can hook.
Just things that I am learning in my quest for 250+
The Quest for 250 MPH in the mile is a real quest
1 Bill Warner (WildBro) 296.128 LOR13 :angel:****FASTEST MILE****LORING TRACK RECORD****
1.1 Bill Warner (WildBro) 278.6 GOL10 :angel:****GOLIAD TRACK RECORD****
1.2 Bill Warner (WildBro) 274.2 MOJ11 :angel:****MOJAVE TRACK RECORD****
1.3 Bill Warner (WildBro) 272.374 MAX10 :angel:****MAXTON TRACK RECORD****
2 Billy Shoemaker (billyshoe) 269.2 MOJ11
3 Shane Stubbs (Livin1072) 264.375 MAX10
4 Tom Gates (TrickTom1) 261.5 GOL10
5 Lee Shierts 260.288 MAX05
6 Charlie Anstaett (Busa200) 259.856 MAX08
6.1 Billy Shoemaker (billyshoe) 255.7 BEE11 ****BEEVILLE TRACK RECORD****
7 Wayne Pollack 255.543 MAX05
7.1 Bill Warner (WildBro) 255.1 GOL10 :angel:****FASTEST NAKED****
8 Ben Beckert (Beckertb) 252.806 GOL09
9 Scott Guthrie (scottg) 251.147 GOL04
10 John Noonan (SpeedKing) 251.1 MOJ10
11 Jack Frost 250 WOD09 *
The above eleven (11) folks are the only racers currently
attaining that goal.
If you look past the Bill Warner program ( Warner and Billy Shoemaker),
NOBODY has joined that exclusive "250 Club" in three (3) years. (since 2010)
It ain't easy.
But, looking at the "second eleven" (11), we see folks on the move:
11 Jack Frost 250 WOD09 ****WOODBRIDGE TRACK RECORD****
12 Hussain Al-sowaigh 249.6 BEE12
13 T homas Cronin 249.055 LOR12
14 Terry Kizer (MrTurbo) 247.591 GOL08
15 Dean Sabatinelli (Zrxdean) 245.109 MAX11 ****FASTEST 1000cc****
16 Rich Yancy 244.358 GOL04
17 Walt Kudron (TurboKing) 244.18 MAX07
17.1 Jack Frost 244.1 ELV12 ****ELVINGTON TRACK RECORD****
18 Jennifer Robertson (9secondJen) 243.6 BEE12 ****FASTEST WOMAN****
19 Jo Stevenson (Tinkerbell1710) 243.5 ELV12
20 Mika Syren (speedduck) 243 ELV13
21 Jody Leveille (Nicklecityracing) 242.208 MAX09
22 Mike Grainger 242.09 ELV12
Of this eleven, seven have done the time in the last couple of years,
and 20 Mika Syren (speedduck) did his time this year.
The dream of 250 is possible.
Who will be next ?
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I guess soft was wrong word.. softer than his mile starts... and yes thats my point use as much track as possible. . And be at WOT for as long as possible .
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Just from seeing bills runs at loring his 311 pass was a soft launch
and his mile passes sounded and looked way more aggressive.
Would be nice to have 1/2 mile data on the two cause loring can hook.
Just things that I am learning in my quest for 250+
The Quest for 250 MPH in the mile is a real quest
1 Bill Warner (WildBro) 296.128 LOR13 :angel:****FASTEST MILE****LORING TRACK RECORD****
1.1 Bill Warner (WildBro) 278.6 GOL10 :angel:****GOLIAD TRACK RECORD****
1.2 Bill Warner (WildBro) 274.2 MOJ11 :angel:****MOJAVE TRACK RECORD****
1.3 Bill Warner (WildBro) 272.374 MAX10 :angel:****MAXTON TRACK RECORD****
2 Billy Shoemaker (billyshoe) 269.2 MOJ11
3 Shane Stubbs (Livin1072) 264.375 MAX10
4 Tom Gates (TrickTom1) 261.5 GOL10
5 Lee Shierts 260.288 MAX05
6 Charlie Anstaett (Busa200) 259.856 MAX08
6.1 Billy Shoemaker (billyshoe) 255.7 BEE11 ****BEEVILLE TRACK RECORD****
7 Wayne Pollack 255.543 MAX05
7.1 Bill Warner (WildBro) 255.1 GOL10 :angel:****FASTEST NAKED****
8 Ben Beckert (Beckertb) 252.806 GOL09
9 Scott Guthrie (scottg) 251.147 GOL04
10 John Noonan (SpeedKing) 251.1 MOJ10
11 Jack Frost 250 WOD09 *
The above eleven (11) folks are the only racers currently
attaining that goal.
If you look past the Bill Warner program ( Warner and Billy Shoemaker),
NOBODY has joined that exclusive "250 Club" in three (3) years. (since 2010)
It ain't easy.
But, looking at the "second eleven" (11), we see folks on the move:
11 Jack Frost 250 WOD09 ****WOODBRIDGE TRACK RECORD****
12 Hussain Al-sowaigh 249.6 BEE12
13 T homas Cronin 249.055 LOR12
14 Terry Kizer (MrTurbo) 247.591 GOL08
15 Dean Sabatinelli (Zrxdean) 245.109 MAX11 ****FASTEST 1000cc****
16 Rich Yancy 244.358 GOL04
17 Walt Kudron (TurboKing) 244.18 MAX07
17.1 Jack Frost 244.1 ELV12 ****ELVINGTON TRACK RECORD****
18 Jennifer Robertson (9secondJen) 243.6 BEE12 ****FASTEST WOMAN****
19 Jo Stevenson (Tinkerbell1710) 243.5 ELV12
20 Mika Syren (speedduck) 243 ELV13
21 Jody Leveille (Nicklecityracing) 242.208 MAX09
22 Mike Grainger 242.09 ELV12
Of this eleven, seven have done the time in the last couple of years,
and 20 Mika Syren (speedduck) did his time this year.
The dream of 250 is possible.
Who will be next ?
Maybe not next but next season that should be possible for me, they say that the bike is 250 bike, rider is just soft launcher.
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Just from seeing bills runs at loring his 311 pass was a soft launch
and his mile passes sounded and looked way more aggressive.
Would be nice to have 1/2 mile data on the two cause loring can hook.
Just things that I am learning in my quest for 250+
The Quest for 250 MPH in the mile is a real quest
1 Bill Warner (WildBro) 296.128 LOR13 :angel:****FASTEST MILE****LORING TRACK RECORD****
1.1 Bill Warner (WildBro) 278.6 GOL10 :angel:****GOLIAD TRACK RECORD****
1.2 Bill Warner (WildBro) 274.2 MOJ11 :angel:****MOJAVE TRACK RECORD****
1.3 Bill Warner (WildBro) 272.374 MAX10 :angel:****MAXTON TRACK RECORD****
2 Billy Shoemaker (billyshoe) 269.2 MOJ11
3 Shane Stubbs (Livin1072) 264.375 MAX10
4 Tom Gates (TrickTom1) 261.5 GOL10
5 Lee Shierts 260.288 MAX05
6 Charlie Anstaett (Busa200) 259.856 MAX08
6.1 Billy Shoemaker (billyshoe) 255.7 BEE11 ****BEEVILLE TRACK RECORD****
7 Wayne Pollack 255.543 MAX05
7.1 Bill Warner (WildBro) 255.1 GOL10 :angel:****FASTEST NAKED****
8 Ben Beckert (Beckertb) 252.806 GOL09
9 Scott Guthrie (scottg) 251.147 GOL04
10 John Noonan (SpeedKing) 251.1 MOJ10
11 Jack Frost 250 WOD09 *
The above eleven (11) folks are the only racers currently
attaining that goal.
If you look past the Bill Warner program ( Warner and Billy Shoemaker),
NOBODY has joined that exclusive "250 Club" in three (3) years. (since 2010)
It ain't easy.
But, looking at the "second eleven" (11), we see folks on the move:
11 Jack Frost 250 WOD09 ****WOODBRIDGE TRACK RECORD****
12 Hussain Al-sowaigh 249.6 BEE12
13 T homas Cronin 249.055 LOR12
14 Terry Kizer (MrTurbo) 247.591 GOL08
15 Dean Sabatinelli (Zrxdean) 245.109 MAX11 ****FASTEST 1000cc****
16 Rich Yancy 244.358 GOL04
17 Walt Kudron (TurboKing) 244.18 MAX07
17.1 Jack Frost 244.1 ELV12 ****ELVINGTON TRACK RECORD****
18 Jennifer Robertson (9secondJen) 243.6 BEE12 ****FASTEST WOMAN****
19 Jo Stevenson (Tinkerbell1710) 243.5 ELV12
20 Mika Syren (speedduck) 243 ELV13
21 Jody Leveille (Nicklecityracing) 242.208 MAX09
22 Mike Grainger 242.09 ELV12
Of this eleven, seven have done the time in the last couple of years,
and 20 Mika Syren (speedduck) did his time this year.
The dream of 250 is possible.
Who will be next ?
I recall T cronin made 250 in mile. and that would put him the only in last 3 years? I will hit 250!! and hope its at my next event..
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Just from seeing bills runs at loring his 311 pass was a soft launch
and his mile passes sounded and looked way more aggressive.
Would be nice to have 1/2 mile data on the two cause loring can hook.
Just things that I am learning in my quest for 250+
The Quest for 250 MPH in the mile is a real quest
1 Bill Warner (WildBro) 296.128 LOR13 :angel:****FASTEST MILE****LORING TRACK RECORD****
1.1 Bill Warner (WildBro) 278.6 GOL10 :angel:****GOLIAD TRACK RECORD****
1.2 Bill Warner (WildBro) 274.2 MOJ11 :angel:****MOJAVE TRACK RECORD****
1.3 Bill Warner (WildBro) 272.374 MAX10 :angel:****MAXTON TRACK RECORD****
2 Billy Shoemaker (billyshoe) 269.2 MOJ11
3 Shane Stubbs (Livin1072) 264.375 MAX10
4 Tom Gates (TrickTom1) 261.5 GOL10
5 Lee Shierts 260.288 MAX05
6 Charlie Anstaett (Busa200) 259.856 MAX08
6.1 Billy Shoemaker (billyshoe) 255.7 BEE11 ****BEEVILLE TRACK RECORD****
7 Wayne Pollack 255.543 MAX05
7.1 Bill Warner (WildBro) 255.1 GOL10 :angel:****FASTEST NAKED****
8 Ben Beckert (Beckertb) 252.806 GOL09
9 Scott Guthrie (scottg) 251.147 GOL04
10 John Noonan (SpeedKing) 251.1 MOJ10
11 Jack Frost 250 WOD09 *
The above eleven (11) folks are the only racers currently
attaining that goal.
If you look past the Bill Warner program ( Warner and Billy Shoemaker),
NOBODY has joined that exclusive "250 Club" in three (3) years. (since 2010)
It ain't easy.
But, looking at the "second eleven" (11), we see folks on the move:
11 Jack Frost 250 WOD09 ****WOODBRIDGE TRACK RECORD****
12 Hussain Al-sowaigh 249.6 BEE12
13 T homas Cronin 249.055 LOR12
14 Terry Kizer (MrTurbo) 247.591 GOL08
15 Dean Sabatinelli (Zrxdean) 245.109 MAX11 ****FASTEST 1000cc****
16 Rich Yancy 244.358 GOL04
17 Walt Kudron (TurboKing) 244.18 MAX07
17.1 Jack Frost 244.1 ELV12 ****ELVINGTON TRACK RECORD****
18 Jennifer Robertson (9secondJen) 243.6 BEE12 ****FASTEST WOMAN****
19 Jo Stevenson (Tinkerbell1710) 243.5 ELV12
20 Mika Syren (speedduck) 243 ELV13
21 Jody Leveille (Nicklecityracing) 242.208 MAX09
22 Mike Grainger 242.09 ELV12
Of this eleven, seven have done the time in the last couple of years,
and 20 Mika Syren (speedduck) did his time this year.
The dream of 250 is possible.
Who will be next ?
I recall T cronin made 250 in mile. and that would put him the only in last 3 years? I will hit 250!! and hope its at my next event..
See rider #13.....................
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I will hit 250!! and hope its at my next event..
And that is when ? You know, i`m counting this years top list.
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Loring is probably the next event I hope to attend. As its not a race but just my personal goal.
And tc was in 1.5..
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I'm gonna just touch on the post title.....
The boys and I have quite a few LSR passes under our leathers and while I don't have scientific proof I do have timeslips and we three have always turned the best mph with aggressive launches in the mile.
It goes back to the day when most bikes were n/a and other than Scott and a few others it was (and is) our streetbikes that we ran. We didn't have the crazy hp of todays turbo 'Busa's & we could not get max speed out of our bikes in the mile no matter how we tuned, geared or ran it.......if I had of then I wouldn't pick up 5 or 6 mph by going to Loring.
Scott may remember the timing system better than me at Maxton in the early days, please chime in Scott and correct me if needed. I'm thinking it was a 132' distance and we used to receive an entry speed and exit speed and the average would be our official speed. On my first 200+ pass I had an entry of 201.xx with and exit of 203.xx giving me a mph of 202.xx, this tells me the bike was still accelerating and a good launch and getting down to business early helped us.
Shane, I know you and Racheal have a ton of dragstrip passes under your belts with some impressive 1/4 mile times. I can not remember ever seeing either of you two making hard launches but of course you've ran a lot of LSR that I've not attended.
Granted the track is the limiting factor and wheelspin is always present on dusty concrete runways, that's one reason the boys run stock arms.
Dan
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Dan,
First…I wish Chad has his leathers at OH! There is nobody out there that I would trust more to make speed on my 14, and give feedback, than either Zack or Chad!!
I think between Racheal and I, we have about 2000 combined dragstrip passes under our belts. I think the dragstrip can actually tell you a lot more about launching and mph than the LSR track can. I say this, because you have excellent traction, and can put down the best launch possible at your skill level and wheelbase. Now, that being said, we have been to about 22 LSR events, and we have tried launching a few ways there as well. I am not claiming we are the most talented racers out there, but we probably have more experience than the “average” guy who shows up.
My dragstrip testing tells me that you can run great mph without a hard “launch”. I think a lot of us have witnessed or experienced this. Now, this is different than saying “don’t go WOT”. I have had more than one day where my best MPH was not my best ET, or 60’, or even 330’. I have bogged the motor down and ran as good or as better mph as launching hard. Even if you lost 1-2 mph at the ¼ mile, your net loss at the 1 mile would be less. That is because the bike is gaining speed quickly, over short distances, in the first ¼ mile. Think about the 5-6 you gain at Loring…..it takes 2600 extra feet of track. If it is taking you 1/2 a mile to gain 5-6 mph, how much can possibly be lost from 100’, or even 300’ of less track?
You probably notice an ugly logger strapped to our fuel tanks a lot of time. With this I can see the rate of acceleration at the end of the mile or 1.5. It is good for giving a good idea of speed gained over distance. So, when the bike is gaining 100 rpm in the last 1.2 seconds, you are gaining say 1.5 mph over the last 300 feet of track. That might be typical for a good running stock bike, geared properly. No matter how you slice that, you wouldn’t gain more than 1.5 mph with 300 feet more of track. And, as mentioned, you are not going to give up 300 feet…the bike is simply accelerating too hard on the small end of the track.
No doubt, you and your boys are talented and experienced riders. In fact, some people say, “look at how the Millhollands launch, that proves it works”. But that is really ignoring the big picture of physics, rider skill, and aero issues. Or someone will come in and say, “Keith Dennis goes 1 mph faster in the ¼ on his most perfect launch at the dragstrip”. Hardly applicable to most of us on the LSR track. :D
I would also like to touch on some of the fastest turbo bikes, with tall gearing. On those bikes it is my opinion that being aggressive on the launch is much more important. That is because they are gaining big mph over relatively short distances, on the big end. You know, if the bike doesn’t get to accelerating for 200’, and it is gaining 5-7 mph in 200’ at track’s end…well, then it is more critical. But that does not apply to most of our bikes.
So, that is why I confidently say, “If you are focused on the launch, you are focused on the wrong end of the LSR track.” BUT, if there is more to the science than I understand, I’m all ears. I really want to understand the science of it, whether I am right or wrong. Because I can afford a tire warmer, and I can launch fairly briskly, if the need arises. :D
Now, on the subject of the tire warmer. Well, the impact on overall traction, not just the launch, needs to be considered. A simple 1% change in wheel slip (about .78" per tire revolution) on the big end can amount to 2+ mph. But the science of overall chassis setup is beyond this thread. :wink:
Shane
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Few racing techniques apply universally. Despite our efforts to control all the relevant variables, we often fail.
IMO, the best way to figure out what works for any one rider on any one bike is to try it both ways and see which is faster. Hard to argue with consistent results.
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Shane says:
"So, that is why I confidently say, “If you are focused on the launch, you are focused on the wrong end of the LSR track.”
"if there is more to the science than I understand, I’m all ears. I really want to understand the science of it"
Karl says:
"I have a BS in Physics and I don't understand it" :hys:
" Much more importantly, I took a bunch of gps logs with Greenie when I was investigating "lazy launches" vs as "aggressive as possible".
For Greenie, I KNOW that a combo of 1)lazy riding technique in 1st & 2nd and 2) too short an arm could cost me up to 10mph.
this assumes the same tuck in 3-4-5-6.
Ever wonder how Sal made awesome mph? (on a little motor Kawasaki fer god's sake)
I did, and Sal was pretty forthcoming :D
When I say "hard launch", I mean rider technique from the moment you start moving until you are WOT locked in third.
(and don't forget arm length)
With my logs, I "studied" what little end techniques made big end mph.
there are 4-5 components to this "hard launch". To put them together takes focus & practice.
karl
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Few racing techniques apply universally. Despite our efforts to control all the relevant variables, we often fail.
IMO, the best way to figure out what works for any one rider on any one bike is to try it both ways and see which is faster. Hard to argue with consistent results.
Dean,
as usual, I agree with you mostly.
Most of you guys have extensive drag racing in your background.
Drag racing = serious drag racers endlessly dissect their 60' & 330' technique.
LSR = most riders largely ignore the details of 1st & 2nd gear technique.
I took my gps logs and kept track of all the aspects I could think of, looked for correlations with high mph
looked as time and distance from start. Some very compelling conclusions.
Drag racers all agree that shitty passes with bad ET's often have their highest mph.
Ever wonder why that is? I sure did...
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One latent variable here is power. On a turbo bike, there is a hige ability to "make up" for a slow launch with torque.
Moreover, this extra power (double or triple of the equiv NA bike) has to have super-tall gearing to allow it reach that extra 30mph on the big end.
Thus comparing launch pros and cons between NA and turbo bikes is really tough. At least 2 moving parts, and they interact.
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Few racing techniques apply universally. Despite our efforts to control all the relevant variables, we often fail.
IMO, the best way to figure out what works for any one rider on any one bike is to try it both ways and see which is faster. Hard to argue with consistent results.
Dean,
as usual, I agree with you mostly.
Most of you guys have extensive drag racing in your background.
Drag racing = serious drag racers endlessly dissect their 60' & 330' technique.
LSR = most riders largely ignore the details of 1st & 2nd gear technique.
I took my gps logs and kept track of all the aspects I could think of, looked for correlations with high mph
looked as time and distance from start. Some very compelling conclusions.
Drag racers all agree that shitty passes with bad ET's often have their highest mph.
Ever wonder why that is? I sure did...
Karl, I think we are defining the "launch" in two different ways. I do not advocate waiting until 3rd gear to get aggressive with the throttle.
We should be careful drawing conclusions based a rider's "style", overall talent...or even just a mph outcome. For example, we could draw the conclusion that hanging the bike on the limiter and spinning the tire leads to big speed as well. Or that a turbo rider is more talented than an NA guy, because of the speed generated. Or that the only way to go fast on a 12R is with a Dynojet Quickshifter. That's why I look for the science.
Until we understand the science, we have "feelings", "anecdotes", and "ideas".
Drag racers all agree that shitty passes with bad ET's often have their highest mph.
Ever wonder why that is? I sure did...
If we have an explanation of the science behind that....well, then we can really expand our discussion about "launching". MPH is really what we are talking about, right?
Shane
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I don't have data from Loring 2013 but when Bill made his first ever runs with the racebike at Maxton he ran 238 in the HALF MILE with the front wheel in the air. I am sure as he got used to the bike he went a little faster. This is what makes the Mile so challenging at very high speeds, very violent acceleration. If someone ever gets close, they will understand. Simple rule of thumb :tu: , the faster the bike, the faster you have to accelerate. LSL
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I don't have data from Loring 2013 but when Bill made his first ever runs with the racebike at Maxton he ran 238 in the HALF MILE with the front wheel in the air. I am sure as he got used to the bike he went a little faster. This is what makes the Mile so challenging at very high speeds, very violent acceleration. If someone ever gets close, they will understand. Simple rule of thumb :tu: , the faster the bike, the faster you have to accelerate. LSL
That kind of ties in with what I was suggesting about the hard accelerating bikes, like the big turbos, getting more out of that first 150 feet than some of the other bikes. Whereas, sometimes people say that an NA bike demands a harder launch than a big nitrous or turbo setup. I think of these 50cc bikes, running 48 mph at the mile...how critical is that first 150'? Yes, a wildly exaggerated example...but illustrates the point.
Shane
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I can BS with the best of them and I don't even have a BS !!! :mrgreen:
Does anyone know of any rider never running faster in the 1.5 than the 1 mile? Seems so simple to me and my simple mind......if a bike is still accelerating at one mile then it looks like an aggressive launch would be beneficial in adding mph.
A slow bike like in your example Shane would surely reach it's maximum speed before the mile therefore not needing an aggressive launch.
My last three passes at Loring were within 1mph of each other total, I felt like my bike had attained a true top speed with me on it. I doubt a soft or hard launch would have made a difference, but I still launched hard.
I apologize for repeating myself so much.......I'll back out now.
Dan
BTW......I never knew Bill ran those numbers in the half. WOW!
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Dan, I think if you go back to my original post you will see that I say that comparatively little can be gained in the 1st 150'. And I think that holds true. If you consider that it takes 2600' to gain 5-6 mph on top (on the bikes I am talking about). Now, we are getting a lot of confusion, I think. When I say that I don't feel a hard launch is required, I don't mean to stay off the gas until you are in 3rd gear, 500' down the track. I am really referring to the typical dragstrip launch. That is what I am talking about when I say hard launch.
Karl pointed out above, the big mph that can be obtained with a crappy launch at the dragstrip. That is not to say that the bike isn't getting WOT quickly. So, you know, if we analyze why that is true, then we all go faster. I have some pretty good ideas about why, but they are just "ideas" until I can prove the "why" with data. It's enough for me now, having seen that slow launch and big mph many, many times at the dragstrip. :thumb:
Shane
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I'd love to see the true science behind this.
I do remember my first time at Maxton and I was told "don't worry, it's not a drag race. You've got plenty of time to get up to speed"
It took me one event to realize that is not exactly true. Here's my anecdotes that I remember and look back on to help me make sense of what I'm trying to accomplish.
End Speed is about Traction, Aero, and HP. You have to get the best you can out of those three variables. The chart shows who has done it well, and not too many have done it all the same way. Bill seemed to have a fair amount of technology at his disposal for measuring such things and a hell of a tune up to take advantage of what he found useful.
I remember my last time at Maxton, bike running like crap and can't get out of it's own way. (turns out the exhaust cam was way off) I got back to the like and my brother looks at me and says, "why can't you just leave like Trillium? ".
I also remember multiple interviews with John Force speaking about 300+ back in the day. He mentioned that If you want to set a speed record you need to let the wheels slip a little more off the line and eventually it will hook up, but it's not going to be quick.
That said, Jody was kind enough to show me the logs of Trillium's passes that day. AIM sport dash stuff was pretty cool. I vaguely remember that her bike would accelerate after rolling off the throttle as the back tire was spinning at nearly 25mph faster than the bike was traveling at the stripe.
At my next event (hopefully Ohio, next season) after my license passes (it's been a while) I surely plan on slapping on a set of tire warmers just as I saw Lee and Rich use just so I can be sure to get the bike slowed down in an appropriate distance. But it will be nice to be able to roll out just a bit harder than I could have without warm tires.
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Until we understand the science, we have "feelings", "anecdotes", and "ideas".
...
If we have an explanation of the science behind that....
Shane
Shane, we've had the discussion several times,
you keep quoting science, I keep showing logs & terminal speeds...
Reminds me of 100 years ago, when leading scientists PROVED that bumblebees couldn't fly
I am only interested in what techniques = more terminal speed. (NA vs NA, turbo vs turbo).
Honest injun, in this case, I don't give a shit about the science :D
IMO empirically:
#1 factor = aeros
#2 factor = hp
#3 factor = technique
#4 set up, arm & shifter
Karl
Shane you keep saying 'hard launch" = 150'
I keep saying 'hard launch" = 1-2-start of 3 gear.
This your thread, but I have no idea what yr point is????
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Until we understand the science, we have "feelings", "anecdotes", and "ideas".
...
If we have an explanation of the science behind that....
Shane
Shane, we've had the discussion several times,
you keep quoting science, I keep showing logs & terminal speeds...
Reminds me of 100 years ago, when leading scientists PROVED that bumblebees couldn't fly
I am only interested in what techniques = more terminal speed. (NA vs NA, turbo vs turbo).
Honest injun, in this case, I don't give a shit about the science :D
IMO empirically:
#1 factor = aeros
#2 factor = hp
#3 factor = technique
#4 set up, arm & shifter
Karl
Imo, if the logs are worth something, they contain the science, the data that can tell you the "why". Otherwise, they can just give you general information...like, "yup, I went faster that time".
Imo, the bumblebee analogy doesn't really apply here, because we can measure the acceleration rate of the motorcycle, all along the track. We can see where it picks up speed, and how quickly. We can see rpm, we can see tps, we can see wheelspin. We even know the general power curve of the motorcycle. We can determine the wind speed and direction, we can determine the DA between runs. We have a lot of real data...not a flight model of a simulated insect. Maybe I just like understanding data; I have been analyzing machine trends at work for many years.
Anyway, I think that the statement, "I don't give a shit about the science"...well, you know...I did request that we keep it scientific. :D
So, with that, I will bow out of this thread. I came searching for the science, but that will have to wait for another day, it seems. :lol:
Shane
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Karl, interesting you put Aerodynamics #1. You know I agree with you 100%, but :D :hys:
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I tend to agree with Karl's order of importance; especially when you have some horsepower. Testing my air shifter at Maple Grove Dragway prior to ECTA's October meet I was running 9.7s at 163 with my mile racing gearing and hard tires (I'm NOT a drag racer - I roll it on when I see full green and pin the throttle). If the bike was set up for drag racing it could run high 8s or low 9s with a drag racer on board but it would have a slower trap speed.
Something to think about is the faster you go, the less time you have to go fast. When Larry 'Spider Man' McBride was asked why there wasn't much difference in his 1/8 mile and 1/4 mile speeds he simply said there wasn't enough time to go faster. In other words what Larry said "the faster the bike, the faster you have to accelerate".
Mike
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> "I tend to agree with Karl's order of importance; especially when you have some horsepower"
So your putting horsepower as #1 ? =8^)
I was going to put HP as #1, however for any given HP, the bike with better arodynamics should kick ass, given
the pilot does not muck up the other three items.
I will propose a different twist to this... At what MPH does aerodymacs actually start making a difference?.
If I was to line up with a naked busa with the same setup , engine, etc, and we take off, I think the two bikes in theory would run side by side up to say around 80mph or so (what would that be... 2.5 seconds or so?)
However, I believe the correct answer to the question would be that aerodynamics starts to play a roll as soon as one launches it all adds up from the start.
This is why my number 1 modification for this winter is to improve my aerodynacs...somehow.
DD
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Daveed, Let me suggest the Catalyst LSR fairing. If you don't want to run the long tail just get the front part and the lower. I think it is the best Aero money can buy. I modified two front fairings and lowers. It is a major PITA. I now have the Catalyst fairing. Unfortunately rain on the salt prevented us from any runs this year. Andy Sills BMW ran around 223 ant Bonneville with the Catalyst fairing. :thumb:
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Daveeed, what I mean by mostly is if your technique is really bad or your setup is way off you may not be able to do anything. We've probably all had runs blown by technique; I know I have. Setup on my bike is a work in progress with no real answers except I'm way more comfortable pinning the throttle through all the gears. But, I haven't gone any faster than before the setup changes.
I would put aero ahead of HP, especially on the salt, because I've seen bikes with less HP go considerably faster with good aero.
Mike
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I've been waiting for someone to suggest the obvious: do back-to-back runs (same conditions as much as possible.) On the first run do a hard launch and on the second, start in third gear. Has anyone done this?
Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk 2
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3rd gear would be a bad idea because it would reduce time/distance to much and you wouldn't build speed quick enough by 1-mile..
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This is a great discussion. I can't add much because there wasn't quite enough science applied to my program, but I think my best runs were made by launching-
Revs up but slipping the clutch
Spooling as fast as possible
Burning the tire off in 1st, 2nd, and the first half of 3rd gear.
It would suddenly hook in 3rd and then pull hard most of the run until aeros dragged it down on the big end. I'd rate it as a moderately hard launch but nothing like a drag launch. I don't have the guts to launch super hard.
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This is a little off topic, but has anyone lifted their butt up off the seat a little in their tuck? I had this theory about the air flowing better over my back and back down onto the tail if I arched my back a little and raised up just enough to feel the air flow smoothly over my back. I did that most runs. I wish I had gathered some hard data on that.
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3rd gear would be a bad idea because it would reduce time/distance to much and you wouldn't build speed quick enough by 1-mile..
Isn't that the point of doing the test? Use 2nd then, give the clutch a chance too...
Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk 2
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Some years ago - and the whole story was posted here on SUZUKIHAYABUSA.ORG, I
helped a young man at Maxton with "The Launch" question.
If I remember incorrectly, somebody please find my old post(s) and correct me.
This young man was doing drag-race style launches, burning the tyre,
and going all over the place on the first 1/4 mile. He got the 200 MPH "hat",
but the job was NOT pretty.
AFTER getting "The Hat," he came to me with the
"how should I do my start ?" question.
We went to the start line, and I
coached him into an excellent "tuck."
I then said
" Start in 6th gear, slip the clutch up to 3,000 rpm,
and then drop the clutch, pin the throttle and hang on.
Keep your tuck the ENTIRE distance, and don't EVER
lose that small frontal area. "
He did just that.
His time was ONLY 7 mph slower
than the all-out, balls - to - the - wall drag race run.
Sure, if he NEEDED those 7 mph,
the drag - start was the way to go,
but it shows that a smooth, aero and
controlled start doesn't hurt you that much, does it ?
Maybe a compromise is what is needed.........
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Daveed, Let me suggest the Catalyst LSR fairing. If you don't want to run the long tail just get the front part and the lower. I think it is the best Aero money can buy. I modified two front fairings and lowers. It is a major PITA. I now have the Catalyst fairing. Unfortunately rain on the salt prevented us from any runs this year. Andy Sills BMW ran around 223 ant Bonneville with the Catalyst fairing. :thumb:
How much better it would be, the Catalyst fairing, do you have some estimate ?
This is the front, i couldn`t find any LSR tail,
http://catalystracingcomposites.com/i-8689328-99-07-hayabusa-lsr-upper-turbo-race.html
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Daveed, Let me suggest the Catalyst LSR fairing. If you don't want to run the long tail just get the front part and the lower. I think it is the best Aero money can buy. I modified two front fairings and lowers. It is a major PITA. I now have the Catalyst fairing. Unfortunately rain on the salt prevented us from any runs this year. Andy Sills BMW ran around 223 ant Bonneville with the Catalyst fairing. :thumb:
How much better it would be, the Catalyst fairing, do you have some estimate ?
This is the front, i couldn`t find any LSR tail,
http://catalystracingcomposites.com/i-8689328-99-07-hayabusa-lsr-upper-turbo-race.html
They have the tail - just email.
You will be faster with
the Catalyst tail (properly mounted) and the STOCK nose,
than with EITHER nose and the stock tail......
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I got this when asked for LSR tail,
http://catalystracingcomposites.com/i-8689325-99-07-hayabusa-low-rider-tail
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Rustman, Greg and I have both used the "lift the butt" technique. At Bonneville where you have so much time at speed to try stuff I know from watching tach that with my back up and arched with butt almost where the hump would be has netted best speeds. And I am a firm believer in the serious launch vs soft pedaling up through gears then pinning it. I know Karl and I have talked about it before. My best runs are when I leave hard and go through gears to shift light with as much throttle as bike will take.
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My best runs are when I leave hard and go through gears
to shift light with as much throttle as bike will take.
Expert opinions from somebody who
has been there, done that and
lived to tell the tale....
Jim is one of the real racers !
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You need to call Mike at Catalyst. Neither piece is the "new" LSR fairing and tail. I don't have pictures of the new fairing and tail. I is at least 200% better than what you have.
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:thumb:
(http://www.msport1.net/image/display/2013/09/189140_san_diego_bmw_S_1000_RR_bonneville.jpeg)
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:thumb:
(http://www.msport1.net/image/display/2013/09/189140_san_diego_bmw_S_1000_RR_bonneville.jpeg)
Thanks Dean.
Last year, (2013) Hunter / Sills was in
the neighborhood of 205 MPH at BUB's.
This year, they are consistent 222-223 MPH.
Was that all due to the much better fairing ?
Wonder if the back of the tail
was open or closed ?
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:thumb:
(http://www.msport1.net/image/display/2013/09/189140_san_diego_bmw_S_1000_RR_bonneville.jpeg)
It is easy to see another 10 MPH - and maybe more - from
this setup with a few inexpensive changes to t
he bodywork - NOT the power plant.
I very much enjoyed helping Andy get
into the Bonneville 200 MPH Club
in the last hour of the last day of Speedweek.
Ask him how "we" did it......
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Last year, (2013) Hunter / Sills was in the neighborhood of 205 MPH at BUB's.
This year, they are consistent 222-223 MPH.
Was that all due to the much better fairing ?
It doesn't surprise me at all that they picked up 15-20mph with plastic that extreme.
And IMO he could pick up another 5-8mph by aggressively using every rpm available in ALL gears. :D
As much as i appreciate the speed that extreme plastic gives, I gotta say i MUCH prefer the "motorcycle" look of stock shaped fairings.
But like Trini Lopez used to sing:
"If you want to be happy for the rest of your life,
make an ugly woman your wife..."
And those BMW guys musta been real happy :thumb:
karl
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That's the one. I can't wait for JC to try mine out next year.
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Last year, (2013) Hunter / Sills was in the neighborhood of 205 MPH at BUB's.
This year, they are consistent 222-223 MPH.
Was that all due to the much better fairing ?
As much as i appreciate the speed that extreme plastic gives, I gotta say i MUCH prefer the "motorcycle" look of stock shaped fairings.
But like Trini Lopez used to sing:
"If you want to be happy for the rest of your life,
make an ugly woman your wife..."
karl
I was of the same school of thought regarding the more stockish look. I can only have one bike, and it needs to turn street legal again soon after returning from the track. I willingly gave up MPH so that I could do that.
Regarding Trini- you might add that you defied him in marrying your lovely wife. I say this in the interest of harmony (and you're not crashing at my pad if you screw it up). :P
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Regarding Trini- you might add that you defied him in marrying your lovely wife. I say this in the interest of harmony (and you're not crashing at my pad if you screw it up). :P
hey Russ, remind me of your address! :hys:
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Ok, it`s so extreme, no wonder it gives more speed.
Why the tail is closed, i`ve usually seen open ones
I also like the stock fairing look, maybe there is some compromise possible.
It would be just great to get this Catalyst LSR fairing set and then pull some 185mph with 500hp turbobusa, credibility is gone forever :)
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Rustman, Greg and I have both used the "lift the butt" technique. At Bonneville where you have so much time at speed to try stuff I know from watching tach that with my back up and arched with butt almost where the hump would be has netted best speeds. And I am a firm believer in the serious launch vs soft pedaling up through gears then pinning it. I know Karl and I have talked about it before. My best runs are when I leave hard and go through gears to shift light with as much throttle as bike will take.
I'm with Jim on this one. I have seen positive results at Bonneville with my butt raised off the seat. Even if it's only 100-200 rpm more on the tach. More is more. :thumb:
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Here's a really BIG picture of that fairing;
http://www.scta-bni.org/Bonneville/SpeedWeek%202013/Photos/Aug14/DSCN1471.JPG
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That fairing seems it could really help, on a mile course also.
And that butt lifting thing, it helps on a standing mile also, i got couple mph extra doing it.
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Wow, I just Googled "butt-lift" to see what you guys are talking about, and I DO NOT SUGGEST DOING THAT. Either the butt-lift thing or the Googling. Wow.
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Wow, I just Googled "butt-lift" to see what you guys are talking about, and I DO NOT SUGGEST DOING THAT. Either the butt-lift thing or the Googling. Wow.
60 hits on the BUTT LIFTING site in the last 2 min :hys:
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Do you mean the surgery or exercising ? Either one is not what i did.
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Mika had a BUTT LIFT!!!!!!
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Lift like this?
Picture was taken at speed back last year (2012) at the July event in Wilmington. Notice how the sunlight is under my butt reflects off the seat.
(https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/9969165/Lift.jpg)
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Mika had a BUTT LIFT!!!!!!
This is so magnificent site, you don`t just get the best advice from pro`s how to go fast, you also get all the advice and recognition what you need in life :clp:
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Lift like this?
Picture was taken at speed back last year (2012) at the July event in Wilmington. Notice how the sunlight is under my butt reflects off the seat.
(https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/9969165/Lift.jpg)
Picture says it all. That looks a lot like my setup, except the NOS and front fairing is all closed, i have the side scoops, Catalyst sportbike. How could you fit the exhaust in there ? I had to cut holes here and there.
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All fits in there, very tight, but it fits. After a run, the plastics on the bottom will burn you. I run a different tail now and the nitrous is inside the plastics.
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Here is one with a bit of lift.Know I have better when I look.
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Here is good one of Greg on 750.
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Jim,
Nice pix!!!!
BTW, i noticed you are missing Texas, Wilmington, Loring 200mph clubs.
I'm thinking you have some traveling to do... :thumb:
Karl
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Very true, Karl!
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Very true, Karl!
Jim,
well, GET ON THE ROAD RIGHT NOW!!!
You will be in the Texas Mile grid for sat morning.
I'll buy you a coffee at dawn tomorrow!
karl
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Yup, only 25 hour drive, no sweat. :?
Busa at painters, 750 getting gear based boost controller for pavement manners.
What is the march weather like?
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Here is good one of Greg on 750.
Heeeeeyyyyy....that's MY tuck! I think mine was probably much like Gregs'. Not very comfortable.
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...and up on the balls of my feet as well. Inner thighs sore from squeezing. Shoulders hurting from squeezing my elbows in to the tank. Neck sore from getting my helmet in contact with the tanl. Cheeks sore from smiling....
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Jockey crouch :thumb:, lift till you feel the wind then down a bit ,
i only get the sore neck and cheeks , riding loose on the salt to let the bike move around under you
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Jockey crouch :thumb:, lift till you feel the wind then down a bit ,
i only get the sore neck and cheeks , riding loose on the salt to let the bike move around under you
+10
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Nothing like a little naked testing to refine your tuck :tu:
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Nothing like a little naked testing
to refine your tuck :tu:
Can you see why the "hump"
on the back of the leathers
is not always desirable ?
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That particular hump is elasticated at the front along the sides so air passes through the open front but I am still tempted to cut it off :tu:
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I have had the occasion to photograph hundreds of riders mostly at the finish stripe and have seen all sorts of tucks, butt up, head up, arm back, arms out face down (dave O) and man many more. I have seen many people try and try to get 200mph passes and failing and them simply walk over and show them their head position as they cross the stripe. Most every time they said something like "wow I could have sworn my head was below the screen". When in fact it was a foot above it.
My travels have landed me at Texas, Maxton many many times and Loring where I also captured some interesting shots. Scott did you ever show anyone "the photo" that I made there? I know I have not published it ever and only made it available to you and team Guthrie.
Also to support Scotts earlier about rolling on at the start in 6th that is the same advice you gave a rookie friend of mine on a R1. He was not running near 200 but the results were similar. I think he was going 178mph or so back when that was more normal for a 1000cc NA bike and then he tried your 6th start and went within a few mph of that. He still quotes that event to me even today.
Scott if you say the word Ill dig out the Loring photo and post it. If not it stays hidden as it has for the last 4-5 years.
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many who "get a feel" for what is going on might "come out of the saddle"... Shane Stubbs might have been
shot with bottocks high and to the rear...somewhere...
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I know we've shifted gears from Shane's original post (sorry) about LSR launching but in my eye's it's all good if we can learn something from each other.
Below is a couple, of many, shot's of Chad trying to determine which tuck is best for him. Over the years the boys have moved all over the bikes finding out what works. I never had that luxury with my size, the third picture is me......I just have one tuck
(http://i90.photobucket.com/albums/k257/oldkawboy/prpv-5_zps08b9d860.jpeg) (http://s90.photobucket.com/user/oldkawboy/media/prpv-5_zps08b9d860.jpeg.html)
(http://i90.photobucket.com/albums/k257/oldkawboy/prpv-1_zps66dbc5a1.jpeg) (http://s90.photobucket.com/user/oldkawboy/media/prpv-1_zps66dbc5a1.jpeg.html)
(http://i90.photobucket.com/albums/k257/oldkawboy/208passLoring2012_zpsf6cacf48.jpg) (http://s90.photobucket.com/user/oldkawboy/media/208passLoring2012_zpsf6cacf48.jpg.html)
Dan
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It seems to me that the ability to get a good tuck depends on several things; rider size, bar, peg, seat, tank. For someone under 6', these may not be a big problem. For someone over 6', it may be necessary to reposition bars and pegs to get the elbows in. Not to mention the bulbous stock tank. If you're over 6' and are a contortionist, it might work, but I'll be making some mods on my bike over the winter to improve my riding position.
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I have had the occasion to photograph hundreds of riders mostly at the finish stripe and have seen all sorts of tucks, butt up, head up, arm back, arms out face down (dave O) and man many more. I have seen many people try and try to get 200mph passes and failing and them simply walk over and show them their head position as they cross the stripe. Most every time they said something like "wow I could have sworn my head was below the screen". When in fact it was a foot above it.
My travels have landed me at Texas, Maxton many many times and Loring where I also captured some interesting shots. Scott did you ever show anyone "the photo" that I made there? I know I have not published it ever and only made it available to you and team Guthrie.
Also to support Scotts earlier about rolling on at the start in 6th that is the same advice you gave a rookie friend of mine on a R1. He was not running near 200 but the results were similar. I think he was going 178mph or so back when that was more normal for a 1000cc NA bike and then he tried your 6th start and went within a few mph of that. He still quotes that event to me even today.
Scott if you say the word Ill dig out the Loring photo and post it. If not it stays hidden as it has for the last 4-5 years.
Don: I think it would be really nice for the folks here at
suzukihayabusa.org if you would post that very nice photograph.
Don and the team have been keeping this photo a little "secret,"
since we might have needed it in the future.
This is a nice example of what a good photo guy could see,
than another person might miss.
Don: Am I correct that this was on one of
Shane Stubbs's 260+ mph passes at Loring ?
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A Catalyst So-Lo tank is the best money you will ever spend to get a really great tuck.
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im not privy to loring pics with Shane...taking a guess...I have talked to him before....
butt high and to the rear.....is relatively commonplace...for some...
http://www.scootershoots.com/BUBMotorcycleSpeedTrials/2013-BUB-Motorcycle-Speed/i-GqBHLNW
http://www.scootershoots.com/BUBMotorcycleSpeedTrials/2013-BUB-Motorcycle-Speed/i-4MWGBdQ
http://www.scootershoots.com/BUBMotorcycleSpeedTrials/2013-BUB-Motorcycle-Speed/i-Qsr9ZPT
http://www.scootershoots.com/BUBMotorcycleSpeedTrials/2013-BUB-Motorcycle-Speed/i-Drcj9tC
http://www.scootershoots.com/BUBMotorcycleSpeedTrials/2013-BUB-Motorcycle-Speed/i-dqXsb4F
http://www.scootershoots.com/BUBMotorcycleSpeedTrials/2013-BUB-Motorcycle-Speed/i-nT84znR
http://www.scootershoots.com/BUBMotorcycleSpeedTrials/2013-BUB-Motorcycle-Speed/i-Jt3SDRz
http://www.scootershoots.com/BUBMotorcycleSpeedTrials/2013-BUB-Motorcycle-Speed/i-DmDT3QJ
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A Catalyst So-Lo tank is the best money you will ever spend to get a really great tuck.
Anybody running a fuel cell and the Catalyst tank cover...and if so, what is the capacity of the fuel cell?
Thanks
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Personally several yrs ago i cut a tank down and it ended up like the catalyst shape but found it difficult to get comfortable on
too much removed at the back of the tank and not enough at the front and sides , i then hammered a tank to a comfortable shape on the 750 , it worked well, so copied that on the busa
later went one step further on the 750 and made a fuel cell , leaving the plenum exposed so you can really get your head down behind the headstock
for those that have not seen my tanks, fit an old tank on your bike, sit on it with your race gear on get in a tuck and wherever the tank gets in your way hit it with a big rubber mallet , chest helmet and elbows end up with recesses
current bodywork has the screen mounted lower & now the gauges and key interrupt the view if your right down, sweet spot is just above that
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I dont recall the exact speed of this particular pass but for sure it was one of the 260+ mph passes that Shane made that weekend back in 2009.
I had never seen a body position that unconventional on a bike over 200MPH. I saw all sorts of weird positions under 200 and in particular under 100mph. Hopefully Scott will fill in the details of the pass. The camera was a Nikon D300 with a Nikkor VR-II 200-400 f4. I cropped some for a tighter view. That track was about 330ft wide as I recall so even standing trackside where I was allowed in a military scissor lift I was a long way away.
(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w320/edonsmith/Shane_zps6acb298a.jpg)
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I dont recall the exact speed of this particular pass but for sure it was one of the 260+ mph passes that Shane made that weekend back in 2009.
I had never seen a body position that unconventional on a bike over 200MPH. I saw all sorts of weird positions under 200 and in particular under 100mph. Hopefully Scott will fill in the details of the pass. The camera was a Nikon D300 with a Nikkor VR-II 200-400 f4. I cropped some for a tighter view. That track was about 330ft wide as I recall so even standing trackside where I was allowed in a military scissor lift I was a long way away.
(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w320/edonsmith/Shane_zps6acb298a.jpg)
IIRC, yes, this was one of the 260+ MPH passes,
and maybe the 265 record pass.
We had been fighting to get more weight
on the rear, for traction.
Shane suggested that we try a heavy stock rim,
instead of the magnesium rim.
That Helped, but Shane wanted more.
We removed "the Hump," and made
a temporary cover for the electronics.
At speed, Shane "assumed the position, and it all worked.........
Shane is a great rider !
My memory is that this bike is
"The Hammer."
You can get an idea of the wind by looking
at the top of the cut-down tank,
which is horizontal at rest.
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That is some tuck :shock:
There must`ve been some unwanted airflow in the crotch area, or did it go under rider and out ?
How long was that bike, +3 " ?
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Wow! I'd love to hear Shane's account of that pass, bet it was something to remember! :bike:
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I was wondering about the air pressure against himself and how he was able to hold on. I only rode "naked" a few times and on a GSXR600 and in the 150s I didn't like that much wind on me. I can even imagine getting 260+ air and trying to hold bars and stay on a bike. I was just a bystander watching and taking photos that weekend but I agree with Scott that Shane was a great rider. Smart, took direction, willing to listen to new ideas and fiercely competitive. Not a bad combo for a pilot for sure.
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Talking to Brett DeStoop after his essentially getting blown off in Australia this yr , he changed body position to select a gear ,got air on his chest and head and could not pull himself back down , after several seconds of arms reach hanging on he just let go of one arm at ~240mph
lucky to pretty much land on the bike as it slid and rode it out getting only a couple of bruises and scuffs
great pic and good to see it got results, but scary at the same time in light of Bretts experiance
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I was wondering about the air pressure against himself and how he was able to hold on. I only rode "naked" a few times and on a GSXR600 and in the 150s I didn't like that much wind on me. I can even imagine getting 260+ air and trying to hold bars and stay on a bike. I was just a bystander watching and taking photos that weekend but I agree with Scott that Shane was a great rider. Smart, took direction, willing to listen to new ideas and fiercely competitive. Not a bad combo for a pilot for sure.
The airflow is going over him. If it was a naked bike and he was in that position...well let's just say that he wouldn't even be in that picture...
I remember the lesson I learned many years ago on the street. It was my first Busa, a 99'... 2 buddies and myself. Another 99' Busa and a 1st gen 1000. We were out in the middle of nowhere and the road opened up into this beautiful straight with nothing around and perfect visibility...how many of you remember how blown away you were by the sheer smoothness, composure, no drama experience of your first big mph on a Busa. Anyhow the speedo was reading just past 200 when I chopped the throttle and sat up! This silky smooth surreal experience instantly became violent and pushed me into the other lane. I was so used to sitting up at the end of straights on road race tracks and after the traps at the dragstrip that I just did it automatically. Lesson learned...
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The airflow is going over him. If it was a naked bike and he was in that position...well let's just say that he wouldn't even be in that picture...
I remember the lesson I learned many years ago on the street. It was my first Busa, a 99'... 2 buddies and myself. Another 99' Busa and a 1st gen 1000. We were out in the middle of nowhere and the road opened up into this beautiful straight with nothing around and perfect visibility...how many of you remember how blown away you were by the sheer smoothness, composure, no drama experience of your first big mph on a Busa. Anyhow the speedo was reading just past 200 when I chopped the throttle and sat up! This silky smooth surreal experience instantly became violent and pushed me into the other lane. I was so used to sitting up at the end of straights on road race tracks and after the traps at the dragstrip that I just did it automatically. Lesson learned...
[/quote]
In other words, you put up the parachute too soon. Luckily my buddy told me how to roll off the throttle and wait to put up the chute at least until you're under a buck-50.
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Exactly! I put out the chute too soon...good advise from your buddy.
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Good buddies, Bob! :mrgreen:
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Good buddies, Bob! :mrgreen:
Exactly...learned from the best! You guys already made all my mistakes for me :mrgreen:
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Good to see the launch discussion is still on track. :hys:
Good stuff, tho!
Shane
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Good post
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Okay, back on track...I took Karl's advice at Mojave and launched it like I stole it. Pulled a wheelie off the line and had to back out a little to bring it down. The point is, I believe that my top speed got better with the harder launch. On that wheelie run, I went faster in the mile than I did on most of my mile and a half runs.
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Okay, back on track...I took Karl's advice at Mojave and launched it like I stole it. Pulled a wheelie off the line and had to back out a little to bring it down. The point is, I believe that my top speed got better with the harder launch. On that wheelie run, I went faster in the mile than I did on most of my mile and a half runs.
Based on your speeds, the launch is not holding you back. No offense.
Also, look closely at weather trends when you analyze your runs.
The math doesn't lie. Your bike is not gaining a lot of mph on the big end, over short distances.
Shane
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Okay, back on track...I took Karl's advice at Mojave and launched it like I stole it. Pulled a wheelie off the line and had to back out a little to bring it down. The point is, I believe that my top speed got better with the harder launch. On that wheelie run, I went faster in the mile than I did on most of my mile and a half runs.
05calibusa,
excellent progress!
Now stretch yr bike a lil and avoid wheelies like the plague.
A bit of spinning doesn't seem to hurt mph at all, but backing off throttle to control a wheelie hurts.
My logs and Shane's math say opposite things, but my mph is better :hys: :hys: :hys: :hys: :hys:
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Karl and I are in 100% agreement on this and I know Greg does as well. We try to launch as hard as the surface/course allows and no soft-pedaling in any gear--ride it like ya stole it, shift lite in every gear! Heck, I had John Noonan telling me that at my first El Mirage meet, went from 186 o 206 on next pass.
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It is a drag race, no matter what the distance 1 mile or 5... The faster you go in the front, the faster you go out the back.
Try to never rev limit ... if you hit the limiter, move it out... don't short shift
As Jim and others have said, run as hard as the surface will allow.
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It is a drag race, no matter what the distance 1 mile or 5... The faster you go in the front, the faster you go out the back.
Try to never rev limit ... if you hit the limiter, move it out... don't short shift
As Jim and others have said, run as hard as the surface will allow.
I'd be very interested in how much a hard "launch" helps mph over a 5 mile stretch. I would think the shift points would mean a lot more than a "launch". How much is your bike accelerating after 3 miles, traction permitting? Because on asphalt, most bikes are nearly done at 1.5 miles, no matter what the launch.
Shane
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The comparison between asphalt
and salt - as Warp12 points out - is
not an easy one.
In 1992, I embarked on the "Stream liner" road, for a few years.
My crew was based in San Diego, so we
decided to test at the old Carlsbad drag strip.
The experience was comical !
I don't think that my "salt" suspension,
and an old, choppy strip cared for each other much.
(The strip crew remarked that they had
never seen "air" under all wheels of a vehicle before.)
Off to Bonneville:
Since I was driving a streamliner, I was allowed - in those
days - to back up as far as possible from the starting line,
which was an additional 2.5 miles.
I launched as hard as possible.
Went through the starting line at over 200 MPH
with a 1000cc on turbo and gasoline, 15#.
timed in the last mile (7.5 miles total run) at 156 mph
average, with a 258 MPH exit speed.
Still accelerating after 7 1/2 miles !
It's about how you drive it !
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The comparison between asphalt
and salt - as Warp12 points out - is
not an easy one.
In 1992, I embarked on the "Stream liner" road, for a few years.
My crew was based in San Diego, so we
decided to test at the old Carlsbad drag strip.
The experience was comical !
I don't think that my "salt" suspension,
and an old, choppy strip cared for each other much.
(The strip crew remarked that they had
never seen "air" under all wheels of a vehicle before.)
Off to Bonneville:
Since I was driving a streamliner, I was allowed - in those
days - to back up as far as possible from the starting line,
which was an additional 2.5 miles.
I launched as hard as possible.
Went through the starting line at over 200 MPH
with a 1000cc on turbo and gasoline, 15#.
timed in the last mile (7.5 miles total run) at 156 mph
average, with a 258 MPH exit speed.
Still accelerating after 7 1/2 miles !
It's about how you drive it !
Very interesting, Scott. I imagine that a big factor was also the streamliner had not hit the aero wall, as a regular, "sit-on" bike might have at those speeds. Plus, the (presumably) sky-high gearing would seem to favor a longer run-up.
Also, I am curious, what were your timed speeds over the course? Were you logging the acceleration in the last mile?
One thing I think we can surmise is that there is no one, universal technique that applies to every machine/venue. As I say, interesting stuff!
Shane
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If it's done accelerating before the mile then the launch doesn't matter but if it's still gaining at the mile, then it matters.
Tom
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If it's done accelerating before the mile then the launch doesn't matter but if it's still gaining at the mile, then it matters.
Tom
How would you quantify the correlation between ET and mph? Since the focus of the dragstrip is a quick ET, and some say that LSR is a "1 mile drag race", I would like to hear your views on that.
Do you believe that the hardest launch possbile for the surface equals the best mph at the dragstrip? Is a drag strip launch the hot ticket for LSR, in your opinion?
Shane
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I dont recall the exact speed of this particular pass but for sure it was one of the 260+ mph passes that Shane made that weekend back in 2009.
I had never seen a body position that unconventional on a bike over 200MPH. I saw all sorts of weird positions under 200 and in particular under 100mph. Hopefully Scott will fill in the details of the pass. The camera was a Nikon D300 with a Nikkor VR-II 200-400 f4. I cropped some for a tighter view. That track was about 330ft wide as I recall so even standing trackside where I was allowed in a military scissor lift I was a long way away.
(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w320/edonsmith/Shane_zps6acb298a.jpg)
IIRC, yes, this was one of the 260+ MPH passes,
and maybe the 265 record pass.
We had been fighting to get more weight
on the rear, for traction.
Shane suggested that we try a heavy stock rim,
instead of the magnesium rim.
That Helped, but Shane wanted more.
We removed "the Hump," and made
a temporary cover for the electronics.
At speed, Shane "assumed the position, and it all worked.........
Shane is a great rider !
My memory is that this bike is
"The Hammer."
You can get an idea of the wind by looking
at the top of the cut-down tank,
which is horizontal at rest.
. Looks like the tank is where suppose to be, look at where it meets the frame. Looks like the amount the rubber cushion spaces it away so it doesn't rest on top of the frame rail.
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I can tell you that when our team had the honda 600, Mark and I would swap back and fourth and I would leave as hard as I can like the drag strip toting the front wheel through first. I would leave way harder then Mark. We would go the close to the same mph and most of the time Mark would go 1 mph more. The key is getting to 100% WOT a.s.a.p.. if you leave like the dragstrip your taking up ground to quick and not at full throttle if your feathering the clutch to keep it from a wheelie.
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...The key is getting to 100% WOT a.s.a.p.. if you leave like the dragstrip your taking up ground to quick and not at full throttle if your feathering the clutch to keep it from a wheelie.
yup
LSR is similar to drags in leaving hard is good.
But completely different in that you couldn't care less about ET.
About everyone has experienced higher mph at the drags with lower ET's.
spinning the tire at drags = shitty ET
In my experience, some spinning the tire doesn't hurt LSR mph at all
short shifting at drags often gives best ET
In my experience, short shifting seriously hurts mph in LSR
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...The key is getting to 100% WOT a.s.a.p.. if you leave like the dragstrip your taking up ground to quick and not at full throttle if your feathering the clutch to keep it from a wheelie.
yup
LSR is similar to drags in leaving hard is good.
But completely different in that you couldn't care less about ET.
About everyone has experienced higher mph at the drags with lower ET's.
spinning the tire at drags = shitty ET
In my experience, some spinning the tire doesn't hurt LSR mph at all
short shifting at drags often gives best ET
In my experience, short shifting seriously hurts mph in LSR
I like it when on a turbo and you spin the tire in the higher gears sometimes it may slingshot you when it regains traction.
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I can tell you that when our team had the honda 600, Mark and I would swap back and fourth and I would leave as hard as I can like the drag strip toting the front wheel through first. I would leave way harder then Mark. We would go the close to the same mph and most of the time Mark would go 1 mph more. The key is getting to 100% WOT a.s.a.p.. if you leave like the dragstrip your taking up ground to quick and not at full throttle if your feathering the clutch to keep it from a wheelie.
Thanks Steve. Exactly what I am trying to get across. "Lanching hard" is not the key, getting wot (under controllable circumstances) is way more important. In that sense, LSR is not a dragstrip. Drag racing is an ET game, LSR is for mph.
Shane
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Thanks Steve. Exactly what I am trying to get across. "Lanching hard" is not the key...
Shane
Shane, perhaps your viewpoint is evolving, if so, that's good.
At the beginning of our discussion you proved to yourself that "a Bonneville start" vs "launching hard" makes very little difference in terminal speed, i.e. 1-2mph. You had math that proved it.
My logs showed me that "launching hard" i.e. using every possible rpm for every foot of track yields 5-10-more mph.
Are we any closer to you agreeing with me?
Or do you insist in going slow? :hys: :hys: :hys: :hys: :hys:
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Shane,
i'm just jerking your chain :bike:
I consider you a friend and respect your knowledge & experience.
But I am not sure we are ever going to agree.
-
Thanks Steve. Exactly what I am trying to get across. "Lanching hard" is not the key...
Shane
Shane, perhaps your viewpoint is evolving, if so, that's good.
At the beginning of our discussion you proved to yourself that "a Bonneville start" vs "launching hard" makes very little difference in terminal speed, i.e. 1-2mph. You had math that proved it.
My logs showed me that "launching hard" i.e. using every possible rpm for every foot of track yields 5-10-more mph.
Are we any closer to you agreeing with me?
Or do you insist in going slow? :hys: :hys: :hys: :hys: :hys:
Karl, I think you are starting to come around to my way of thinking...so maybe we are both going to meet in the middle one day, lol!
Reading Steve's post again:
I would leave way harder then Mark. We would go the close to the same mph and most of the time Mark would go 1 mph more
if you leave like the dragstrip your taking up ground to quick and not at full throttle if your feathering the clutch to keep it from a wheelie.
The math I stated is 100% correct. Where did I ever say "Bonneville Start"?? Although I imagine the philosophy is the same; get the bike to a controllable wot condition as soon as possible. Don't try to rip it out of the hole like a bat out of hell.
Shane
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Shane,
i'm just jerking your chain :bike:
I consider you a friend and respect your knowledge & experience.
But I am not sure we are ever going to agree.
Likewise Karl...two people can view the same thing and describe it two totally different ways. So, I imagine we do agree on some of the points already. But I still cringe every time I hear, "it is a 1-mile drag race". Because, at the dragstrip, ET is king...and when you transfer that technique straight to the LSR track, you are missing the point, and focusing on the wrong end of the track. Imo.
Shane
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If you're talking A Bonneville start. The actual launch is nothing to gain. Its all how you apply the power with your "seat of the pants" riding skill through the first mile on. The first mile is really important, but not the actual launch, Ill make up for an easy roll from a light launch with SOP finesse through the miles!
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The math I stated is 100% correct. Where did I ever say "Bonneville Start"?? Although I imagine the philosophy is the same; get the bike to a controllable wot condition as soon as possible. Don't try to rip it out of the hole like a bat out of hell.
Shane
This is where we fundamentally disagree.
I say DO "rip it out of the hole like a bat out of hell".
And, keep rpm up by letting it spin a lil bit in 1st and 2nd
And, avoid short shifting, ever.
And, avoid getting out the throttle to control wheelies, ever.
I'm saying that being as aggressive as possible from the starting line, thru 1st, 2nd, 3rd, every gear is worth 5-10-more mph at the finish.
We agree to disagree.
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The math I stated is 100% correct. Where did I ever say "Bonneville Start"?? Although I imagine the philosophy is the same; get the bike to a controllable wot condition as soon as possible. Don't try to rip it out of the hole like a bat out of hell.
Shane
This is where we fundamentally disagree.
I say DO "rip it out of the hole like a bat out of hell".
And, keep rpm up by letting it spin a lil bit in 1st and 2nd
And, avoid short shifting, ever.
And, avoid getting out the throttle to control wheelies, ever.
I'm saying that being as aggressive as possible from the starting line, thru 1st, 2nd, 3rd, every gear is worth 5-10-more mph at the finish.
We agree to disagree.
First, who ever talks about 3rd gear, or even 2nd, when it comes to the "launch"? It is assumed that you should be wot in 2nd gear+, and hitting your shift points.
Lazy shift points in 2nd and 3rd gear? What does that have to do with "launching"? Right?
If your bike is gaining 5 mph in 1000' at the end of the track, trying to leave like Larry McBride is not going to help you. In fact, it may very well hurt your mph, as Steve pointed out.
Shane
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If you're talking A Bonneville start. The actual launch is nothing to gain. Its all how you apply the power with your "seat of the pants" riding skill through the first mile on. The first mile is really important, but not the actual launch, Ill make up for an easy roll from a light launch with SOP finesse through the miles!
On the salt, the actual launch, i.e. dropping the clutch at the line MUST be gentle.
I agree 110%
I am using "bonneville start" as i see a bunch of folks run on the salt.
They ease off the line, short shift lower gears, not get agressive until 5th & 6th, then pin it.
A few years ago, I was told by some very experienced guys (like Doug Meyer) that was the way to do it, that everything good happens in mile 3 & mile 4, don't worry about being aggressive until the quarter.
What I found was that just like asphalt, every inch of the track matters, especially before the quarter.
Shane's math says otherwise. We have a basic disagreement.
But i'll still enjoy a beer with him!
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Yeah but you can't rip it like a bat out of hell and retain traction and without avoiding a wheelie. The traction isn't there ever!! Its called one thing and its FINESSE!! Thats one thing I have! And happy about it!
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If you're talking A Bonneville start. The actual launch is nothing to gain. Its all how you apply the power with your "seat of the pants" riding skill through the first mile on. The first mile is really important, but not the actual launch, Ill make up for an easy roll from a light launch with SOP finesse through the miles!
On the salt, the actual launch, i.e. dropping the clutch at the line MUST be gentle.
I agree 110%
I am using "bonneville start" as i see a bunch of folks run on the salt.
They ease off the line, short shift lower gears, not get agressive until 5th & 6th, then pin it.
A few years ago, I was told by some very experienced guys (like Doug Meyer) that was the way to do it, that everything good happens in mile 3 & mile 4, don't worry about being aggressive until the quarter.
What I found was that just like asphalt, every inch of the track matters, especially before the quarter.
Shane's math says otherwise. We have a basic disagreement.
But i'll still enjoy a beer with him!
NO Karl, I would never advocate anything of less than 100% throttle in 2nd gear and up! Unless the bike setup makes it uncontrollable in 2nd gear, lol...which doesn't apply to most bikes with proper setup.
Shane
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If you're talking A Bonneville start. The actual launch is nothing to gain. Its all how you apply the power with your "seat of the pants" riding skill through the first mile on. The first mile is really important, but not the actual launch, Ill make up for an easy roll from a light launch with SOP finesse through the miles!
On the salt, the actual launch, i.e. dropping the clutch at the line MUST be gentle.
I agree 110%
I am using "bonneville start" as i see a bunch of folks run on the salt.
They ease off the line, short shift lower gears, not get agressive until 5th & 6th, then pin it.
A few years ago, I was told by some very experienced guys (like Doug Meyer) that was the way to do it, that everything good happens in mile 3 & mile 4, don't worry about being aggressive until the quarter.
What I found was that just like asphalt, every inch of the track matters, especially before the quarter.
Shane's math says otherwise. We have a basic disagreement.
But i'll still enjoy a beer with him!
I like going faster in the early miles. You would have to gear accordingly to the length of the coarse you're racing on and speed desired! Just because there's 5 miles don't mean you have to run it that far. I like the 3 or 4 at most, never the the 5 unless you're trying to break stuff early!
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First, who ever talks about 3rd gear, or even 2nd, when it comes to the "launch"? It is assumed that you should be wot in 2nd gear+, and hitting your shift points.
Lazy shift points in 2nd and 3rd gear? What does that have to do with "launching"? Right?
If your bike is gaining 5 mph in 1000' at the end of the track, trying to leave like Larry McBride is not going to help you. In fact, it may very well hurt your mph, as Steve pointed out.
Shane
Don't get hung up on the word "launch".
My assertion has not wavered since the beginning of our discussion several years ago:
aggressive technique in the lower gears = 5-10-more mph at the finish.
I've been calling "aggressive technique in lower gears" = "using a hard launch".
You have also been unwavering since the beginning of our discussion.
Your math shows you that you only gain 5 mph in the last 1000', so you conclude that my aggressive technique in lower gears isn't going to gain much.
I say it gains alot.
You say it gains little.
Neither of has budged in 3 years
:hys: :hys: :hys: :hys: :hys:
In fact, now i'm even further away from your position.
Now i believe "aggressive technique in lower gears" is even applicable at Bonneville.
A couple years ago, I saw Bob Sellers systematically gain mph at Bonneville when he got progressively more aggressive on each succeding pass.
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First, who ever talks about 3rd gear, or even 2nd, when it comes to the "launch"? It is assumed that you should be wot in 2nd gear+, and hitting your shift points.
Lazy shift points in 2nd and 3rd gear? What does that have to do with "launching"? Right?
If your bike is gaining 5 mph in 1000' at the end of the track, trying to leave like Larry McBride is not going to help you. In fact, it may very well hurt your mph, as Steve pointed out.
Shane
Don't get hung up on the word "launch".
My assertion has not wavered since the beginning of our discussion several years ago:
aggressive technique in the lower gears = 5-10-more mph at the finish.
I've been calling "aggressive technique in lower gears" = "using a hard launch".
You have also been unwavering since the beginning of our discussion.
Your math shows you that you only gain 5 mph in the last 1000', so you conclude that my aggressive technique in lower gears isn't going to gain much.
I say it gains alot.
You say it gains little.
Neither of has budged in 3 years
:hys: :hys: :hys: :hys: :hys:
In fact, now i'm even further away from your position.
Now i believe "aggressive technique in lower gears" is even applicable at Bonneville.
A couple years ago, I saw Bob Sellers systematically gain mph at Bonneville when he got progressively more aggressive on each succeding pass.
Karl, why do you keep talking about the "lower gears"? I have already stated that I believe in 100% throttle from 2nd gear up, and hitting shift points.This thread is about "launching" the bike. Specifically the idea of a dragstrip-type launch, as has been advocated by some. This has nothing to do with 2nd-3rd-4th gear. It has to do with people wheelying, spinning, on the limiter, sideways...trying to get out of the hole "hard".
Your bike Greenie gained about what, 5 mph in the last 2600' of Loring? I can promise you that lesser bikes are gaining lesser mph....data logger proven, in the last 1000' of the mile. It's not my "idea"...it's fact.
Shane
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Shane,
This is your thread.
If you want to restrict discussion to "launch", i.e. only talk about 60' technique, then there is no discussion.
no discussion = too bad. :td:
Too bad because there is an excellent discussion to had about the relative importance of the front half vs the back half.
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Shane,
This is your thread.
If you want to restrict discussion to "launch", i.e. only talk about 60' technique, then there is no discussion.
no discussion = too bad. :td:
Too bad because there is an excellent discussion to had about the relative importance of the front half vs the back half.
Karl, the thread is about the launch. The title is "The LSR Launch". Not back half vs front half, or whatever.
That is not necessarily the 60' only, but it is more related to the way you leave the line and your 1st gear actions. When people say "rip it out of the hole", "LSR is a 1 mile dragstrip", "launch hard"....that is really what we are talking about. I have not changed position on this. Nobody is really posting, "To improve my launch I am focused on my 3rd gear shift point".
Plenty of people have piled on about how that dragstrip launch is important, so I think this thread has plenty of merit. Every time I see a guy say, "I need to launch harder", after spinning the tire and wheelying, that brings the point home.
I think there has been a lot of good discussion here, even if it has been way off track at times. :)
Shane
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I am with Steve and Karl, on Bonneville. I leave kind of easy, run a long way in 1st gear, trying to keep it hooked up. I take it to the shift light in every gear. My fastest run ever was 235 in three miles. 233 at the 2 1/4. Right hand traction control is very important in 1st gear and sometimes 2nd. :bike:
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If it's done accelerating before the mile then the launch doesn't matter but if it's still gaining at the mile, then it matters.
Tom
How would you quantify the correlation between ET and mph? Since the focus of the dragstrip is a quick ET, and some say that LSR is a "1 mile drag race", I would like to hear your views on that.
Do you believe that the hardest launch possbile for the surface equals the best mph at the dragstrip? Is a drag strip launch the hot ticket for LSR, in your opinion?
Shane
For example, at my first Texas Mile, three of us showed up with bone stock ZX14's. The only modification was the countershaft nut to eliminate the speed limiter. We all ran 184 and some change every run. We tried hard drag strip launches and soft roll out style launches. It didn't matter. What we observed was, depending on the launch, we'd max out at somewhere between the 5/8 and a bit passed the 3/4 mark.
Since then I've modified the bike to where I'm still building rev's when I'm crossing the finish line. Now the launch really matters.
Another extreme example... There used to be a guy who showed up at Texas with a lawn mower. He went 74 mph. He'd run to about the half mile mark before he'd gas it and drop into his tuck. Obviously, his launch didn't matter.
That being said, it's a lot more fun to drill it outta the hole 8)
Tom
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What then if you experience major wheel spin in some lower gear, how should it be handled to get something out of the run ? Shortshift, or is there some tricks that could help ? Knowing that there is several hours before next run. I`m a rookie, don`t laugh :)
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It's all in the wrist :bike:
I've gotten greedy more than once and blew off the tire leaving the line and it cost me several miles per hour thru the traps.
At the first Mojave event it was cold as hell. There was NO traction in the first two gears. Karl and I were going toe to toe for top honors. I finally threw a really tall gear on the bike to soften up the power to the tire in 1st and 2nd. I still had some tire spin but the result was I was going faster despite going thru the traps in 5th instead of 6th. It worked 8)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LheXmC9gsWE
Tom
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And we need to separate the style of launch based on the venue, because pavement will be vastly different than salt or elmo.
I really think we are all talking about the same thing just blurring the terms. We agree on the need to get to OT as soon as possible, and to use all available rpm in very gear.
Never ceased to amaze me watching some bike leave the line at salt and soft pedal and short shift so they are in fifth before the mile even. :hys:
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I have been over 250
both on salt,
and in the mile.
Here's a thought or two:
1) Pavement
a) There is NO time to waste, unless you are at the power peak
in top gear as you go through the lights.
b) If you are on an air-cooled 125cc,
you risk overhearing and slowing
if you nail it the whole way.
c) If you are hitting the rev limiter in the lights,
try gearing a little taller, like 1/2 tooth.
d) keep some sort of record of the wind speed and direction
AT the lights AT the time of the run. A tail wind
will not always be available when you need it.
e) Control your launch traction. Lifting because of a "wheelie"
means you are not managing acceleration as well as possible.
f) Use some sort of data to isolate your
best practices when acceleration from stop.
g) Use this same data to identify possibilities
from the 1/4 mile onwards. Body position counts a lot,
and it is empirical, not intuitive
(See picture of Shane at 260 mph above)
h) Become comfortable with speed and body movement.
i) Become comfortable with speed and bike movement.
j) Practice, practice, practice.
2)Salt
a) This is a changing, hostile environment.
b) Good traction on Course #1 does NOT mean good traction on course #2
c) Good traction at 10:00 am does NOT mean good traction at 2:00 PM.
d) The tune up for sea-level is not always right for 4,250 feet at Bonneville.
e) Traction will vary between the 2-mile and the 4-mile.
f) Traction will be different between the left side of the course, and the right side.
g) There may be standing water on the course.
h) In summary, traction is where you find it.
i) When you find it, use it !
j) If you don't have it, don't kill the tire by spinning (too much).
k) You will spin the rear tire - grow to love it, it means you are making power !
l) Every good run at Bonneville is a gift.
m) Every bad run is an opportunity to learn.
Rich Yancy several times complimented my for having a "good launch"
on the famous BUD #8, which put me in the 250 club at Goliad - the
track record at the time. The first time he said it, I was both very
surprised and very pleased, since I never done "squat" as a drag racer.
Later, I was able to capitalize on the good points, and reduce the bad points.
Walt Kudron once kindly complimented me for running within 1 mph
on a number of consecutive runs,
FOOT SHIFTING to about 241 mph at Maxton.
If you can control what you do,
you can control the outcome.
If you can't control what you do,
than it's just dumb luck
TAKE the dumb luck every time,
but don't convince yourself you are a hero...
I have been active in LSR for more than 40 years,
and have more than 200 official time slips over 200 MPH.
I cannot remember one perfect run out of any
of the maybe 800 LSR runs I have made.
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I have been over 250
both on salt,
and in the mile.
Here's a thought or two:
1) Pavement
a) There is NO time to waste, unless you are at the power peak
in top gear as you go through the lights.
I agree, no time to waste. Just be sure to use your time wisely. :wink:
Walt Kudron once kindly complimented me for running within 1 mph
on a number of consecutive runs,
FOOT SHIFTING to about 241 mph at Maxton.
As a well-known drag racer once said to me, ".....the knowledge is in the consistency." Very true and very important, imo. I know some guys who are very, very fast...occasionally. :D That's why I like to focus on data and science when possible....when you understand why something is occurring, you are much more likely to be able to make it happen again. Anecdotal evidence and science have a tenuous relationship, at best. :thumb:
Shane
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I cannot remember one perfect run out of any
of the maybe 800 LSR runs I have made.
BRILLIANT! :thumb: :thumb: :thumb: :thumb: :thumb: :thumb: :thumb: :thumb: :thumb:
I don't have 800 LSR runs :(
But over the last 4 years or so, I kept increasingly detailed notes on each pass; weather, data logging, bike set up, my riding.
Even when the bike was "perfect", there was always something to improve on my riding style.
That's how I identified the components of how to get more mph in the front half. :D
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But over the last 4 years or so, I kept increasingly detailed notes on each pass; weather, data logging, bike set up, my riding.
That's how I identified the components of how to get more mph in the front half. :D
Honest injun, in this case, I don't give a shit about the science :D
Aside from trying to reconcile the above statements, I am still wondering how the "launch" discussion turned into the "front half of the track" discussion. :D
Shane
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But over the last 4 years or so, I kept increasingly detailed notes on each pass; weather, data logging, bike set up, my riding.
That's how I identified the components of how to get more mph in the front half. :D
Honest injun, in this case, I don't give a shit about the science :D
Aside from trying to reconcile the above statements, I am still wondering how the "launch" discussion turned into the "front half of the track" discussion. :D
Shane
Shane, reconciling those statements is easy.
I made observations on each pass, then made what i felt were improvements on the next pass.
If that improvement didn't add mph, it was discarded.
This is not simple because even when I decided to try a new technique, it often took time to get it right,
AND
wind direction trumps almost everything.
As I have stated time and again, I don't have calculations (your science) to back up the basis of my technique; thus my comment "i don't give a shit about science" (in this case).
Simply, I care about results.
I got results.
But this is your thread,
you have again pointed out it's about "the launch" (not about going faster)
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But this is your thread,
you have again pointed out it's about "the launch" (not about going faster)
Yes, I made this thread to focus on the "launch"....and whether the "launch" was that critical to going faster, and if so, what scientific evidence supported that. Especially in light of what we all know about the often non-correlation of ET and MPH at the dragstrip. Simple.
I am glad that so many people have contributed, as I say. Even off-topic, some very good discussion.
We may never agree 100%. But I think there are some points that we DO agree on....actually, as a group, a lot of points. As someone else pointed out, a lot of semantics involved here....it's the internet, after all. :)
Shane
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My NA bike went 220.xx mph in the mile, the next 2640 ft we picked up 6 mph. Scott Davis aka drag racer, utilized his skills as a 8 sec 170 mph drag racer for a very Modest but brisk start down Lorings runway.
How will a full blown tire smoking 60 foot add anything to the last 2640' & 6mph??? If you made the track 60' longer than 1.5 mile how much mph would you pic up???
No one has demonstrated the value of a hot 60' from a dead stop relating to any meaningful gain on the big end. No one.
Will a tire blazing Mirock dig out the hole....translate to 5-7 mph at the end of the mile? IF so then that will take our 222.xx mph best in the mile to close to 230 mph.
That would make my 1427 Kawasaki the baddest SOB cc for cc on the planet.?
Shane has stated and restated that the gains over the last 1000 '+ are modest as we all know to be true. So why beat the crap out of our hi dollar equipment in the FIRST 60' ?
What is he missing and why?
cmg
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... the gains over the last 1000 '+ are modest
as we all know to be true. So why beat the crap out
of our hi dollar equipment in the FIRST 60' ?
What is he missing and why?
cmg
Are we getting warmer ?
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Shane has stated and restated that the gains over the last 1000 '+ are modest as we all know to be true.
I'll take ANY gain.......even modest ones!
Dan (I'm a hard launching kinda guy)
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Shane has stated and restated that the gains over the last 1000 '+ are modest as we all know to be true.
I'll take ANY gain.......even modest ones!
Dan (I'm a hard launching kinda guy)
The problem is, Dan, that many of us have seen that the quicker 60' (Launch) is not tied to higher mph at the dragstrip. Even if you think I am crazy and/or stubborn, here is what Steve Knecum posted:
The key is getting to 100% WOT a.s.a.p.. if you leave like the dragstrip your taking up ground to quick and not at full throttle if your feathering the clutch to keep it from a wheelie.
Steve has a lot of experience, as we all know. I recently discussed this with another very experienced drag racer who confirmed that a quicker ET can cost you mph.
Shane
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Now Shane, I've never thought of you being crazy....
I know what Steve said as I've read every post but even his opinion doesn't convince me. I believe there is a lot of experienced LSR & drag racing folks reading this topic and I take in what ALL of them have to say. It does seem as if we keep going around in circles and at times beating the old horse to death but your topic has got racers thinking.
I can't relate or comment on high hp bikes that run a turbo but the boys and I have been doing this a while on our n/a streetbikes and we believe in hard launching as you are aware.
Years ago when Maxton gave an entrance and exit speed at the traps it was evident that our low hp bikes were still accelerating. When that window time decreased we had higher trap speeds, we launched as aggressive as possible to shorten that time. Back then you could round robin, 15 to 20 passes on a Sunday could be done. We beat on our bikes, took notes and tried different things.
For US on OUR bikes (not claiming to know what works for other racers) we had our best numbers by leaving hard and getting to WOT as soon as possible.
I believe most n/a bikes are done by the 1.5 mile, you even touched on this Shane. You were at Loring when I ran three passes within .5mph of each other. I tried a couple different things at that meet but my bike was at maximum velocity with me in the seat......I don't believe another half mike would have helped.
At one mile it is still picking up speed though and I think being aggressive at the launch helps, even if the mph is nominal it's still moving in the right direction.
Different opinions make this world go round, it sure would be boring if we all thought and done the same things. You mileage may vary.
Dan
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Now Shane, I've never thought of you being crazy....
I know what Steve said as I've read every post but even his opinion doesn't convince me. I believe there is a lot of experienced LSR & drag racing folks reading this topic and I take in what ALL of them have to say. It does seem as if we keep going around in circles and at times beating the old horse to death but your topic has got racers thinking.
I can't relate or comment on high hp bikes that run a turbo but the boys and I have been doing this a while on our n/a streetbikes and we believe in hard launching as you are aware.
Years ago when Maxton gave an entrance and exit speed at the traps it was evident that our low hp bikes were still accelerating. When that window time decreased we had higher trap speeds, we launched as aggressive as possible to shorten that time. Back then you could round robin, 15 to 20 passes on a Sunday could be done. We beat on our bikes, took notes and tried different things.
For US on OUR bikes (not claiming to know what works for other racers) we had our best numbers by leaving hard and getting to WOT as soon as possible.
I believe most n/a bikes are done by the 1.5 mile, you even touched on this Shane. You were at Loring when I ran three passes within .5mph of each other. I tried a couple different things at that meet but my bike was at maximum velocity with me in the seat......I don't believe another half mike would have helped.
At one mile it is still picking up speed though and I think being aggressive at the launch helps, even if the mph is nominal it's still moving in the right direction.
Different opinions make this world go round, it sure would be boring if we all thought and done the same things. You mileage may vary.
Dan
Great post, Dan. I really like seeing everyone passionate about the racing, and sharing their experiences.
It's not possible for us all to agree all the time. In fact, I bet we all of know of fast racers who have very different techniques....but they do what works for them. :)
Shane
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Now Shane, I've never thought of you being crazy....
I know what Steve said as I've read every post but even his opinion doesn't convince me. I believe there is a lot of experienced LSR & drag racing folks reading this topic and I take in what ALL of them have to say. It does seem as if we keep going around in circles and at times beating the old horse to death but your topic has got racers thinking.
I can't relate or comment on high hp bikes that run a turbo but the boys and I have been doing this a while on our n/a streetbikes and we believe in hard launching as you are aware.
Years ago when Maxton gave an entrance and exit speed at the traps it was evident that our low hp bikes were still accelerating. When that window time decreased we had higher trap speeds, we launched as aggressive as possible to shorten that time. Back then you could round robin, 15 to 20 passes on a Sunday could be done. We beat on our bikes, took notes and tried different things.
For US on OUR bikes (not claiming to know what works for other racers) we had our best numbers by leaving hard and getting to WOT as soon as possible.
I believe most n/a bikes are done by the 1.5 mile, you even touched on this Shane. You were at Loring when I ran three passes within .5mph of each other. I tried a couple different things at that meet but my bike was at maximum velocity with me in the seat......I don't believe another half mike would have helped.
At one mile it is still picking up speed though and I think being aggressive at the launch helps, even if the mph is nominal it's still moving in the right direction.
Different opinions make this world go round, it sure would be boring if we all thought and done the same things. You mileage may vary.
Dan
Dan:
You have expressed yourself very well.
Thanks for posting.
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Here is something for everyone to ponder:
Look at these numbers from the same day. Pay careful attention to the 60', 1/8th, and MPH numbers:
(http://www.warp12racing.com/images/backhalfs.jpg)
How can a 1.47 60 foot equal less mph than a 2.3 60 foot, same day, same rider, similar conditions?? I promise you that on the 1.47, I had the throttle locked early (64" bike). Sorry the pics are blurry, it was all I had on hand. I should mention, the slow ET/Big MPH pass was made intentionally.
We've got .8 seconds slower to the 60 foot, and 1.24 seconds slower in the 1/4....but more mph. Curious results, right? Without the dragstrip launch, might I have put down more average hp over the distance of the 1/4 mile?
Shane
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Shane I look at the 1/8 mph and see the faster launch helped ??
After all this discussion i would think many will try something different , main thing is what works for you...
For me its as much about the attitude you leave the line with as the actual technique
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Shane I look at the 1/8 mph and see the faster launch helped ??
After all this discussion i would think many will try something different , main thing is what works for you...
For me its as much about the attitude you leave the line with as the actual technique
I wouldn't look too hard at the 1/8th mile mph...as the shift point was very close to those traps. A slight change in the track distance is a significant mph difference there, due to the shift point on the that particular setup. And as I have mentioned, the bikes gain speed rapidly on the small end. I was more saying...look how lazy the bike is to the 1/8th, ET-wise. Look at the big end mph. Notice how the mph split more than makes up for that lazy start. There is more to my methodology than just "tip-toeing" the bike off the line. But that is for each person to determine...the best way for them.
Agree 100%...what works for your bike, rider, and setup is what's most important. :thumb:
Shane
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Here is something for everyone to ponder:
Look at these numbers from the same day. Pay careful attention to the 60', 1/8th, and MPH numbers:
(http://www.warp12racing.com/images/backhalfs.jpg)
How can a 1.47 60 foot equal less mph than a 2.3 60 foot, same day, same rider, similar conditions?? I promise you that on the 1.47, I had the throttle locked early (64" bike). Sorry the pics are blurry, it was all I had on hand. I should mention, the slow ET/Big MPH pass was made intentionally.
We've got .8 seconds slower to the 60 foot, and 1.24 seconds slower in the 1/4....but more mph. Curious results, right? Without the dragstrip launch, might I have put down more average hp over the distance of the 1/4 mile?
Shane
What I notice is that the first 2 very, very similar passes are 7 minutes apart. The 3rd is 3 1/2 hours later. Wind conditions? Wind direction? Barometric changes? Track conditions? Rider aero... soft easy launch allows the rider to get into optimal position much sooner and easier. Just food for thought. I've owned bikes that my fastest mph was also on the quickest et. I've had others where it was not even close...
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Your reaction SUCKED!! That's why you went slower!! No? :bike:
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Here is something for everyone to ponder:
Look at these numbers from the same day. Pay careful attention to the 60', 1/8th, and MPH numbers:
(http://www.warp12racing.com/images/backhalfs.jpg)
How can a 1.47 60 foot equal less mph than a 2.3 60 foot, same day, same rider, similar conditions?? I promise you that on the 1.47, I had the throttle locked early (64" bike). Sorry the pics are blurry, it was all I had on hand. I should mention, the slow ET/Big MPH pass was made intentionally.
We've got .8 seconds slower to the 60 foot, and 1.24 seconds slower in the 1/4....but more mph. Curious results, right? Without the dragstrip launch, might I have put down more average hp over the distance of the 1/4 mile?
Shane
What I notice is that the first 2 very, very similar passes are 7 minutes apart. The 3rd is 3 1/2 hours later. Wind conditions? Wind direction? Barometric changes? Track conditions? Rider aero... soft easy launch allows the rider to get into optimal position much sooner and easier. Just food for thought. I've owned bikes that my fastest mph was also on the quickest et. I've had others where it was not even close...
Glad you asked:
Density altitude was 500' worse in the afternoon, which robs power:
(http://www.warp12racing.com/images/backhalf34DA.jpg)
Winds, pretty comparable:
(http://www.warp12racing.com/images/windbh34.jpg)
If .8s less 60 foot (HUGE) didn't hurt my mph, what does that say about the "dragstrip" launch??
Shane
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Your reaction SUCKED!! That's why you went slower!! No? :bike:
:hys:
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What I notice is that the first 2 very, very similar passes are 7 minutes apart. The 3rd is 3 1/2 hours later. Wind conditions? Wind direction? Barometric changes? Track conditions? Rider aero... soft easy launch allows the rider to get into optimal position much sooner and easier. Just food for thought. I've owned bikes that my fastest mph was also on the quickest et. I've had others where it was not even close...
There is more than meets the eye to a good "launch" strategy, SEJ, and you touched on some good points. I'm sure Entropy and I agree on that point. A hard launch always makes you look like a pro....but is it faster? I have a funny story about that, maybe later. :)
Shane
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Yeah...like everything can go to hell in a hurry after a killer 60' :lol:
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Yeah...like everything can go to hell in a hurry after a killer 60' :lol:
Yup. At the dragstrip I try to coach the new guys to be more concerned about the 330' than the 60'. Not that I am a "pro"...but it's all relative, right? :)
Shane
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You bet! :tu:
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Density altitude was 500' worse in the afternoon, which robs power:
Do you think that the % difference in humidity more than offsets the 500'? I'm no expert, not even close and trying to learn all of the time, but a 21% drop makes a lot more room for more oxygen.
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Density altitude was 500' worse in the afternoon, which robs power:
Do you think that the % difference in humidity more than offsets the 500'? I'm no expert, not even close and trying to learn all of the time, but a 21% drop makes a lot more room for more oxygen.
Density altitude is calculated with temperature AND humidity. Temperature has by far the most affect on engine power.
Shane
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Density altitude is calculated with temperature AND humidity.
Thanks! I just learned something. :D
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Density altitude was 500' worse in the afternoon, which robs power:
Do you think that the % difference in humidity more than offsets the 500'? I'm no expert, not even close and trying to learn all of the time, but a 21% drop makes a lot more room for more oxygen.
Density altitude is calculated with temperature AND humidity. Temperature has by far the most affect on engine power.
Shane
I should add that I'm talking about the Density altitude calculation...I'm VERY aware of the temperature part... 8)
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Back to the original topic and tying it in with the heat equation... The 2012 July ECTA meet was my second LSR event ever. I was riding a bone stock 05' GSX-R1000. Stock motor, stock exhaust, stock wheel base, stock gearing. Guy wouldn't let me run production class because I had it lower than stock(1"- 1.5"), and a Suzuki double bubble style windscreen on it. I also made my own switchable TRE to get rid of the top speed restriction and to restore full timing in 1- 3rd gears. I was experimenting all weekend with different body positions and tucks. Hind end up and slid back on the hump, forward with helmet sealing the gap to the wind screen, somewhere in between, but always with elbows, knees, and toes tucked as much as possible and head as low as possible. But the biggest difference was made with how I left the starting line! By Sunday I was leaving the line as if I was drag racing it. Stock gearing with a close ratio trans equals a very tall 1st gear. With that in mind I was leaving with enough rpm's to NOT bog, not spin the tire, not wheelie, but get to WOT asap with VERY good forward drive by using the clutch. Brian at the starting line told me that I was leaving harder than anyone else there. Anyhow, I ended up running a best of 186.088 mph in over 100 degree weather which I am damn proud of. The NA bikes probable benefit from this the most, and the lower hp turbo/nitrous bikes like my turbo 1000.
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We have an '03 GSXR 1000 here that we have dragraced quite a bit; many moons ago we also ran it at Maxton.
It is hard to compare results of July 7-8 2012, for me, because there was a 10 degree difference in each day, and the winds were out of different directions.
What do your logs say? I am interested in how much mph your bike was gaining in the last 1000'. I suspect not very much. The 1000 aero's are not very good, and the power is not too much. At 186 mph with that setup, the bike is about done....unless you saw some wind assist.
Shane
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I wish that I could answer your question as I would like to know the answer myself. But I was not data logging. What mods were done to your 03' 1000 and how fast did it run? The 03' 1000's are physically larger (body wise) making it easier to get out of the airflow, the nose has a busa like shape to it. They don't have a close ratio trans, so 1st gear is shorter for better launches. They make less hp, but you probably had a full system that was tuned...probably making up the hp deficit not to mention dropping weight. I'm 5' 10" and 165 lbs. in street clothes, not leathers, helmet, boots, etc...
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I wish that I could answer your question as I would like to know the answer myself. But I was not data logging. What mods were done to your 03' 1000 and how fast did it run? The 03' 1000's are physically larger (body wise) making it easier to get out of the airflow, the nose has a busa like shape to it. They don't have a close ratio trans, so 1st gear is shorter for better launches. They make less hp, but you probably had a full system that was tuned...probably making up the hp deficit not to mention dropping weight. I'm 5' 10" and 165 lbs. in street clothes, not leathers, helmet, boots, etc...
That bike went 182.7 best with my gf riding (it's her bike). It didn't have a decent tune (downloaded map), but had an Arata, around 20k miles. I estimate the hp at about 145 sae. The bike only runs about 142-144 mph in the 1/4. In fact, it runs the same mph without a power commander! By comparison, she has run near 162 mph on my stock motor 14R. From what I have seen, the later GSXR's are a lot stronger, power-wise, than the early ones (not a big power change until '05, I believe).
We put a grudge racer on her 1k and he ran about .2s quicker than her best, at 9.33. Mph was the same, though. I would not be concerned about that tall first gear at all, because I wouldn't be trying to launch it like I was at the dragstrip. :D
But on a serious note, the 1000 can put down a lot of power without sliding the clutch. To try an experiment, leave normally and just grab a big handful of throttle once the clutch is fully out. It won't take long for the power to come, and have the bike pointed skyward. And you won't have heated up those tiny clutch plates from sliding it to control wheelies. Overheat the clutch and you will definitely see that in your mph. Take it from someone who has changed a lot of GSXR clutches at the dragstrip!!
Shane
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I wish that I could answer your question as I would like to know the answer myself. But I was not data logging. What mods were done to your 03' 1000 and how fast did it run? The 03' 1000's are physically larger (body wise) making it easier to get out of the airflow, the nose has a busa like shape to it. They don't have a close ratio trans, so 1st gear is shorter for better launches. They make less hp, but you probably had a full system that was tuned...probably making up the hp deficit not to mention dropping weight. I'm 5' 10" and 165 lbs. in street clothes, not leathers, helmet, boots, etc...
That bike went 182.7 best with my gf riding (it's her bike). It didn't have a decent tune (downloaded map), but had an Arata, around 20k miles. I estimate the hp at about 145 sae. The bike only runs about 142-144 mph in the 1/4. In fact, it runs the same mph without a power commander! By comparison, she has run near 162 mph on my stock motor 14R. From what I have seen, the later GSXR's are a lot stronger, power-wise, than the early ones (not a big power change until '05, I believe).
We put a grudge racer on her 1k and he ran about .2s quicker than her best, at 9.33. Mph was the same, though. I would not be concerned about that tall first gear at all, because I wouldn't be trying to launch it like I was at the dragstrip. :D
But on a serious note, the 1000 can put down a lot of power without sliding the clutch. To try an experiment, leave normally and just grab a big handful of throttle once the clutch is fully out. It won't take long for the power to come, and have the bike pointed skyward. And you won't have heated up those tiny clutch plates from sliding it to control wheelies. Overheat the clutch and you will definitely see that in your mph. Take it from someone who has changed a lot of GSXR clutches at the dragstrip!!
Shane
Oh I don't abuse the clutch!!! I've been drag racing bikes for 29 years. I know EXACTLY what you're talking about. The only time that I burned the clutches out of my 05' was 2 or 3 years ago when Doug Gall and myself were hot lapping at Edgewater against one another. He was on a gen1 busa. 05' 1000 clutches are even worse than your 03's... The old man kept taking it to him until the last pass of the night when they finally gave out on the big end. He kept rubbing it in that he was out 60' me...but that goes back to our earlier conversation of everything going to hell past the 60'... 8)
BTW...I don't ever remember seeing clutches that looked THAT bad coming out of a bike that I owned... :lol:
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I wish that I could answer your question as I would like to know the answer myself. But I was not data logging. What mods were done to your 03' 1000 and how fast did it run? The 03' 1000's are physically larger (body wise) making it easier to get out of the airflow, the nose has a busa like shape to it. They don't have a close ratio trans, so 1st gear is shorter for better launches. They make less hp, but you probably had a full system that was tuned...probably making up the hp deficit not to mention dropping weight. I'm 5' 10" and 165 lbs. in street clothes, not leathers, helmet, boots, etc...
That bike went 182.7 best with my gf riding (it's her bike). It didn't have a decent tune (downloaded map), but had an Arata, around 20k miles. I estimate the hp at about 145 sae. The bike only runs about 142-144 mph in the 1/4. In fact, it runs the same mph without a power commander! By comparison, she has run near 162 mph on my stock motor 14R. From what I have seen, the later GSXR's are a lot stronger, power-wise, than the early ones (not a big power change until '05, I believe).
We put a grudge racer on her 1k and he ran about .2s quicker than her best, at 9.33. Mph was the same, though. I would not be concerned about that tall first gear at all, because I wouldn't be trying to launch it like I was at the dragstrip. :D
But on a serious note, the 1000 can put down a lot of power without sliding the clutch. To try an experiment, leave normally and just grab a big handful of throttle once the clutch is fully out. It won't take long for the power to come, and have the bike pointed skyward. And you won't have heated up those tiny clutch plates from sliding it to control wheelies. Overheat the clutch and you will definitely see that in your mph. Take it from someone who has changed a lot of GSXR clutches at the dragstrip!!
Shane
Oh I don't abuse the clutch!!! I've been drag racing bikes for 29 years. I know EXACTLY what you're talking about. The only time that I burned the clutches out of my 05' was 2 or 3 years ago when Doug Gall and myself were hot lapping at Edgewater against one another. He was on a gen1 busa. 05' 1000 clutches are even worse than your 03's... The old man kept taking it to him until the last pass of the night when they finally gave out on the big end. He kept rubbing it in that he was out 60' me...but that goes back to our earlier conversation of everything going to hell past the 60'... 8)
BTW...I don't ever remember seeing clutches that looked THAT bad coming out of a bike that I owned... :lol:
After 29 years racing at the dragstrip, I am sure you have seen a lot of crappy ET runs with big MPH. Someone once told me, "those runs are flukes". Well, they are only "flukes" if you don't understand why they happened. Understand that (the science), and you can turn a "fluke" into a consistent result.
Another thing you might look at, is...what is your throttle position when you are sliding the clutch, what happens to your fueling when you finally reach wot, and what conditions does the machine need to have in order to make maximum power?
Just some things to ponder. All part of the equation to get the most hp over the distance.
Shane
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I wish that I could answer your question as I would like to know the answer myself. But I was not data logging. What mods were done to your 03' 1000 and how fast did it run? The 03' 1000's are physically larger (body wise) making it easier to get out of the airflow, the nose has a busa like shape to it. They don't have a close ratio trans, so 1st gear is shorter for better launches. They make less hp, but you probably had a full system that was tuned...probably making up the hp deficit not to mention dropping weight. I'm 5' 10" and 165 lbs. in street clothes, not leathers, helmet, boots, etc...
That bike went 182.7 best with my gf riding (it's her bike). It didn't have a decent tune (downloaded map), but had an Arata, around 20k miles. I estimate the hp at about 145 sae. The bike only runs about 142-144 mph in the 1/4. In fact, it runs the same mph without a power commander! By comparison, she has run near 162 mph on my stock motor 14R. From what I have seen, the later GSXR's are a lot stronger, power-wise, than the early ones (not a big power change until '05, I believe).
We put a grudge racer on her 1k and he ran about .2s quicker than her best, at 9.33. Mph was the same, though. I would not be concerned about that tall first gear at all, because I wouldn't be trying to launch it like I was at the dragstrip. :D
But on a serious note, the 1000 can put down a lot of power without sliding the clutch. To try an experiment, leave normally and just grab a big handful of throttle once the clutch is fully out. It won't take long for the power to come, and have the bike pointed skyward. And you won't have heated up those tiny clutch plates from sliding it to control wheelies. Overheat the clutch and you will definitely see that in your mph. Take it from someone who has changed a lot of GSXR clutches at the dragstrip!!
Shane
Oh I don't abuse the clutch!!! I've been drag racing bikes for 29 years. I know EXACTLY what you're talking about. The only time that I burned the clutches out of my 05' was 2 or 3 years ago when Doug Gall and myself were hot lapping at Edgewater against one another. He was on a gen1 busa. 05' 1000 clutches are even worse than your 03's... The old man kept taking it to him until the last pass of the night when they finally gave out on the big end. He kept rubbing it in that he was out 60' me...but that goes back to our earlier conversation of everything going to hell past the 60'... 8)
BTW...I don't ever remember seeing clutches that looked THAT bad coming out of a bike that I owned... :lol:
After 29 years racing at the dragstrip, I am sure you have seen a lot of crappy ET runs with big MPH. Someone once told me, "those runs are flukes". Well, they are only "flukes" if you don't understand why they happened. Understand that (the science), and you can turn a "fluke" into a consistent result.
Another thing you might look at, is...what is your throttle position when you are sliding the clutch, what happens to your fueling when you finally reach wot, and what conditions does the machine need to have in order to make maximum power?
Just some things to ponder. All part of the equation to get the most hp over the distance.
Shane
How much do you charge to teach me the stuff you know? :bike:
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How much do you charge to teach me the stuff you know? :bike:
Free for you, Steve! :hys: