SuzukiHayabusa.org
GENERAL => MAXIMUM OVERDRIVE => Topic started by: TrickTom1 on September 09, 2015, 06:56:57 PM
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Just something that I've thought about since he has passed. To me it seems like the competition and excitement that we had several years ago is gone. At the Texas events back then there could be 5 bikes that had been or could of have been 250+. So I started the Shootouts to try and create more competition, make it runner and give sponsors an opportunity to get involved. It was not for the money at $100 a head. Maybe it's just me...
There are a few guys (Guy Caputo, Hussain Al-Sowaigh, Don Hass) that are planning of wanting to beat his speeds now but are still creeping up on it. No one has come remotely close. In my opinion Bill(and team) was way ahead of his time and set the bar really high. He did a ton of testing way before anyone ever figured out what he was doing. With better conditions and time I'm certain that he would have hit 300 in the 1.0 mile. I also know that there was a ton left in his 311 run in the 1.5 mile. I think that he could have hit 320 after he hit the 300 if he wanted to. Sadly, his quest for 300 in the mile was his last feat.
What does everyone think? If you think it will be beat, by who and when?
*Typed on phone so please excuse grammar and punctuation.*
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NO
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It will happen. just not too soon. he was way ahead of his time
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In 20-30 years, when you are all 67 like me. It is just too friggin' fast. and that is that.
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Technology keeps moving the world forward so one would think it will happen. I don't, and yes I have a bias. It takes HP, Aerodynamics, Rate of Acceleration, and rider control. With current CNC programs a complete billet engine is possible. 1000 HP can be done. The aero is not so easy. Bill's body needed a chin spoiler to keep it down at speed. That worked fine at the 1.5 mile RoA but for the mile the extra power made the bike come up at 280+. Like walking a tightrope wearing combat boots. Bill almost made it to the end. Bill was a genius with his ramps for progressing the power to maintain the max acceleration of 6-7% slip. I have not seen anybody else show that skill. Rider control comes from practice. It takes many years of multiple races to acclimatize to 400+ ft/second.
So how will it be done? By a team of experts, each with the special skill in the parameters mentioned above. Just write the check for the engine, aero testing, electronics, etc. I would suggest traction control, a drag slick with inner liner, wheelie bar and a rider like Bill. Bill did it almost entirely by himself, he won't be beaten, only matched by a team. LSL
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The bar is very high but its possible it will be repeated even exceeded in time but all the stars need to align on the right day and the best conditions.
A superstreet bike in the Uk ran 212 mph terminal in 6.95 secs over the quarter mile on a fully prepped track last weekend so just extend that potential in to a mile with the right gearing and set up.
Becci Ellis is running big speeds over here with lots of tyre slip because she is very light but there is 275 potential there in a mile.
I just wish we had a 1.5 mile track with another mile stopping distance and no noise restrictions.....Guess thats the next lottery win spent :mrgreen:
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I don't think Bill's records will be eclipsed for a very long time if ever. He is how many MPH faster than the next closest competitor?!?! Once the speeds are over 260 it seems the effort to gain more is astronomical. Bill was 51 MPH FASTER!!! He really was way out there, completely in a league of his own.
I always enjoyed reading about his accomplishments and would anxiously check the forums when he was running. I never met him or even had the chance to chat online with him however, I was truly saddened when I read of his passing...
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Yes Don will do it and Bill
Will be proud. I think he is watching hoping it will happen. Bill was ahead of the people attempting it at the time but it not that noone was capable of the accomplishment its that noone was at that point yet.
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Dons gone almost 250 in a mile on a stock body 1000 and now has a bike making over 1000hp will great areo. The first event he was having overboost and was spinning nasty and getting to learn. Now it has 3 wastegates and the powpow is undercontrol.
Track conditions will be the hindrance. Anyone doing or attempting it should only attempt it on the best conditions which in itself will slow the pace.
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Bill ran at all the paved tracks and found all, except Loring,fell short of being acceptable for 300mph. Some by a lot some just a little.
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has a bike making over 1000hp
:bah:
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has a bike making over 1000hp
:bah:
It made 560 on 16or 18 psi forgot and was overboosting at 42psi before addind another WG. I think 25 psi on a 560hp bike on 16 is either at or welll above.
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Dons gone almost 250 in a mile on a stock body 1000 and now has a bike making over 1000hp will great areo. The first event he was having overboost and was spinning nasty and getting to learn. Now it has 3 wastegates and the powpow is undercontrol.
Track conditions will be the hindrance. Anyone doing or attempting it should only attempt it on the best conditions which in itself will slow the pace.
The 'best conditions' will (slow) the pace? Whaaa?
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Dons gone almost 250 in a mile on a stock body 1000 and now has a bike making over 1000hp will great areo. The first event he was having overboost and was spinning nasty and getting to learn. Now it has 3 wastegates and the powpow is undercontrol.
Track conditions will be the hindrance. Anyone doing or attempting it should only attempt it on the best conditions which in itself will slow the pace.
The 'best conditions' will (slow) the pace? Whaaa?
300 in a mile has not been done safely yet. 300 in a mile should only be attempted in the cross windless conditions. If you are going to be safe and use safe times the amount of runs (pace) will be less.
Not "pace" as in speed.
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how is it they were able to make dyno runs at "low boost" and make 560 hp, but on the track when it was supposed to be making 6, it went to 42 then required them to add an additional gate to keep things under control?
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how is it they were able to make dyno runs at "low boost" and make 560 hp, but on the track when it was supposed to be making 6, it went to 42 then required them to add an additional gate to keep things under control?
Loading.
Time is a factor.
From your experience with compound turbo motorcycles what were you thinking it was?
Didnt bills bike start with one wastegate and end up with two?
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Now boys lets play nice here...Load is exactly the reason it didn't make that must boost on the dyno. We still have a lot to learn with this bike. It is far from finished. We have so much left on the bodywork even before we bring it to the wind tunnel. We have worked out a lot of bugs in just seven passes.
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Now boys lets play nice here...Load is exactly the reason it didn't make that must boost on the dyno. We still have a lot to learn with this bike. It is far from finished. We have so much left on the bodywork even before we bring it to the wind tunnel. We have worked out a lot of bugs in just seven passes.
Your a asshole. I mean I am a asshole. I mean psiiiii
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300 in a mile hmmm uncharted and bill was close and ahead of his time. Don has the bike to go past that speed. It will take time to work out some bugs and get aero good. But then it will fly. As for turbos and dyno's well first you have to understand how a turbo really works ;) heat heat = load. But boost control on compound setup is trial and error right now. Cause I am sure I have seen it done before ;). The bike is art work and built way ahead of its time!!! A lot of people seem to think its not possible but I am sure bill and Dave "O" are watching and know it's coming.
Built not Bought
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I would think you could generate more load with a dyno if you strap the bike properly. take away its ability to spin the tire, then put it in a high gear, or hold it at a constant rpm with the dyno. its very easy to spin the tire on a track with no prep = less load.
i also understand the concept of rushing to make a race and not fully testing things. been doing it each year myself :hys:
lets just not exaggerate the facts here. nobody has a 1000 hp bike. 700 is on the ragged edge of needing billet everything. we can all estimate and plan for big numbers, but untill it happens its all just dreaming. save the bragging for when it happens. because it will happen :tu:
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Scott your program is impressive and I agree with you on the "1000" HP talk.
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Bill ran at all the paved tracks and found all, except Loring,fell short of being acceptable for 300mph. Some by a lot some just a little.
I remember Bill going to shutdown at Loring the evening before he ran the 311, he really concentrated on the runoff area (at every venue) and even made a path for going long in the grass if I remember right, I know he talked about doing it. I was with him and Keith Turk at Wilmington and Keith was explaining which gate they would go out that was closest to the hospital......Bill wanted all the details covered.
I didn't know Bill as well as some of you but I do go back as far as him bringing his vMax to Maxton. When he said he was gonna break 200, we all got a good chuckle. We didn't really know Bill back then. It wasn't long before we realized that he was different, very driven & very talented.
I think eventually someone will break Bills records, just hard to believe what it will take to control a bike that can accelerate to those speeds in those distance's.
Best of luck to those who will try,
Dan
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lets just not exaggerate the facts here. nobody has a 1000 hp bike. 700 is on the ragged edge of needing billet everything. we can all estimate and plan for big numbers, but untill it happens its all just dreaming. save the bragging for when it happens. because it will happen :tu:
Using finely tuned controller you can tickle out more and more hp to the wheel, but if using big turbo and just the wastegate adjusted to, let`s say 30psi, itīs a sure thing it breaks everything way before reaching 1000hp. 700hp sounds quite right, about there the transmission falls apart (i broke it 3 times in 2 events)
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Ordering hateraide by the case. With certain people on this forum if did not build and blew it up it is not possible. How are these other 700hp motors failing? Whats breaking? Why? I dont think there has been much innovation in the turbo bike game in 10years. :hys: haters going hate but they are still going to strap on a bigger turbo and expect bigger results. Something innovative comes along which you dont have personal experience with so therefore it is witch-magic. If you need something chug your hateraide about I will say it makes 1100hp.
0fucks given to some peoples opinion on here as usual.
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I do not comprehend how anyone can go faster than 311 without using the same downforce tech that the Formula 1 cars have...........i.e. air foils. A 320 mph wind is the equivalent of a invisible canted brick wall trying to stop you and lift you off the ground at the same time, IMO. Look at how many Top Fuel Dragsters get airborne............a bunch, and they have 10K HP. It is beyond my brain to see it as a reality.............I don't care how much HP ya got. Then again, I am older now and still remember when you would pick up the phone and the operator would say "number please".
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This guy made my turbokit, and has the same on his bike,
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Talk about clicking the shutter at the right moment :tu:
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At first glance I thought it was a self in stick of some sort. That's some scary stuff at that speed. How did the bike fair?
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We ask a lot of our chains.
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All chains have a tight spot - that is a given. What if someone could develop a "spring loaded roller" that would keep the chain at a constant tension no matter whether it was in the tight spot or a loose one? Is that feasible? Has anyone ever tried it?
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No one will beat Bill's full fairing records. No one is even close. Even if someone can build a motor/kit that could get close to making the same power, the science/engineering in Bill's bike won't be matched... Nor will the skill/or size of the balls it takes to ride a bike trying to wheelie at 280.
Bill will be the next Burt Munro.
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No one will beat Bill's full fairing records. No one is even close. Even if someone can build a motor/kit that could get close to making the same power, the science/engineering in Bill's bike won't be matched... Nor will the skill/or size of the balls it takes to ride a bike trying to wheelie at 280.
Bill will be the next Burt Munro.
I agree completely! Wheeling @ 280 and still accelerating inside a mile is beyond terrifying! Coming down from 300+ mph and living to appreciate the accomplishment! Well that is just on a level I think the rest of us can only daydream about. Bill became a Legend and always will be no matter how advanced technology gets.
Bill Warner " The Goat " of speed.
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No one will beat Bill's full fairing records. No one is even close. Even if someone can build a motor/kit that could get close to making the same power, the science/engineering in Bill's bike won't be matched... Nor will the skill/or size of the balls it takes to ride a bike trying to wheelie at 280.
Bill will be the next Burt Munro.
I agree completely! Wheeling @ 280 and still accelerating inside a mile is beyond terrifying! Coming down from 300+ mph and living to appreciate the accomplishment! Well that is just on a level I think the rest of us can only daydream about. Bill became a Legend and always will be no matter how advanced technology gets.
Bill Warner " The Goat " of speed.
well said by both
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:thumb:
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:thumb: :thumb:
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Bill's Speed will not be beat, anytime soon anyways.... no one as figured out what Bill took 2 years of working everyday, 10 to 12 hours per day, sometimes more... some days not stopping to eat.... a lot of days not paying attention to anything else but run logs.... he nearly lost his business and everything he owned to achieve this goal of his to reach the big number that he did in the mile and a half that some replied to by saying," well it wasn't in the mile".. you know who you are..... well he nearly did do it in the mile ... 296.128 mph...
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Speed records, no matter who runs them are temporary, but until we get someone of Bills or Dave Os caliber and commitment it may be a very long time before Bills speeds are beaten, on any track by anybody, I have been around racing of some sort since before dirt was invented and when you get a person who is commited enough or should be :lol: with the money it would take, sooner or later they will get what there after, a lot have tryed and generaly ether they run out of ambition, money, or they get to old and don't give a fuck anymore (like me)
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Guys and girls Bill and Dave O set the bar very high and are 2 reasons I got into LSR!! Now all this bashing is not either of their styles. I know both of them would be standing and helping with anyone trying the such great feat of 300 mph!!
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Bill's Speed will not be beat, anytime soon anyways.... no one as figured out what Bill took 2 years of working everyday, 10 to 12 hours per day, sometimes more... some days not stopping to eat.... a lot of days not paying attention to anything else but run logs.... he nearly lost his business and everything he owned to achieve this goal of his to reach the big number that he did in the mile and a half that some replied to by saying," well it wasn't in the mile".. you know who you are..... well he nearly did do it in the mile ... 296.128 mph...
SOOOOO very true. after the 311 run at dinner hearing the story almost make me cry. what Bill put into this.
Walt I told you the book would have been a best seller or a movie.
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Guys and girls Bill and Dave O set the bar very high and are 2 reasons I got into LSR!! Now all this bashing is not either of their styles. I know both of them would be standing and helping with anyone trying the such great feat of 300 mph!!
Who's bashing who??? I would have gladly accepted Bill or Daves help if I was into LSR, also I would bet just about anyone on this forum would have, truth is I spent so many years at the track with cars I had no more money to piss away, I spoke with Dave a couple of times when he started flashing ECU's, we never did get together and then he was gone, ............surely someone will run 300 in a mile, right now blown/nitro bikes can run 250 in a 1/4, so theoreticly it should not be a big deal, but myself having first hand experiance that extra 10 or 12 mph can cost a lot
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LOL, you were right Johnnie.
Brad Pitt, Johnny Depp, or Leonardo DiCaprio for the lead.
I will be played by Jack Black (in his manic, annoying frenzied mode).
Jody will be played by Will Ferrell, or maybe Jim Carrey (see the picture of him on my pit bike in halter top).
Trillium will be played by Jennifer Lawrence (ooh-la-la!).
Richard of RCC HAS to be played by the Dude, Jeff Bridges, playing master fabricator of things that have never been done..
Special appearance by James Doohan (Scotty the engineer from Star Trek - "She can't take any more!") playing Steve Knecum.
Special Guest Star Anthony Hopkins, aka "Burt Monroe", genius of all things transmission, playing Marc from R&D Transmissions.
Of course, Larry, the Wizard, will be played by God Himself, the all-knowing and all-wise Morgan Freeman.
Walt
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James Doohan is pushin' up daisies. :shock: :(
Bill Shatner is still around though.
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Maybe they can splice him in from old footage.....
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oXZa89Hv8Bo
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Thanks, I enjoyed that.
Walt
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Yer more than welcome.
Dave
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I do not think anyone will beat Mr. Warner's feat within the next decade..............not until someone figures out how to defeat the laws of physics at that kind of speed............Bill did it, but, it cost him his life. I would not want to be the man to try and fill those shoes, even on 4 wheels, much less two.
Imagine the lack of contact patch area on your tires at that speed............not much........take the Bugatti Veyron for example..........one set of tires can be used up completely in 12 minutes at top speed and that is only around 265 mph, much less 311. I just cannot imagine all the forces at work going against a rider at that kind of speed...........virtually unobtainable, except for Mr. Warner. It is like trying to eclipse Nolan Ryan's fastest pitch, or Cy Young's pitching record, or Babe Ruth's home run record. Just too far "out there". Just my opinion.
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In a previous post, someone said that Bills bike was not legal anywhere. Look at thie pic in the previous post. Bills bike is typical of the current APS class bikes. Bills bike is/was a legal APS BIKE anywhere. SCTA, ECTA wherever!!
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Bills bike was legal for pavement racing!!! Trust me with Larry involved its always legal. The one thing Bill took to his grave was the AMS #s. Well only one person had or has them, but they probably burned those #s in the fireplace. Put it this way, you see how long the bloodhound is taking and the magnitude of the team. That will give an idea of what's involved. Safety, aeros, power, AMS #s in that order. Oh and Big Big Ballz. I myself would have the fairings designed first and pay an aerodynamasist to do so. We all know how serious 300 in the mile can be. Good luck to those trying, but I don't like the bodywork being used.
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I am with Steve on the current contenders bodywork. There are several bikes that have really good bodywork. IMHO #1 would be Ralph Hudson, 242 with an NA 1000 and 261 with turbo 1000. #2 tie, Joe Amo 272 at Bonneville and Larry Forstalls "Guppy" 254 NA at Bonneville, Mark Deluca riding. All of these bikes are one off bodywork. Bills bodywork is up there with the Guppy and Joe Amo. Ralph's bodywork is much smaller because the 1000 is. There are a lot of similarities with all of these bikes bodywork.
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I agree with Fred and Larry. We have 2-3 sets of bodywork sitting in the rafters because all the off the shelf stuff has issues and was not really designed for LSR speeds we are seeing. Greg has gone back to the drawing board and starting from scratch.
Joe and Ralph's stuff is nice, never really had a good look at the Guppy.
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IWe have 2-3 sets of bodywork sitting in the rafters because all the off the shelf stuff has issues and was not really designed for LSR speeds we are seeing.
We have really big issues even with n/a bike using off the shelf set, why is this ? I had an impression the manufacturer had done research and testing before putting the kit on sale, i guess not :(
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I think some are stylised versions of a std bodywork, and not realy tested
others good in theory but in practice with different bikes having different COG and rider shapes and weights not so good
my pet dislike is lack of symmetry
add to the list of good bodywork Brett De Stoop, Tom Mellor , Mel Hewett
IMO Bretts is up there with Ralph
then when you get the body shape right and your bike goes real fast its more succeptable to sidewind
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I agree that Brett's is up there. The other two I am not familiar with, or dont remember. CRS the more surface area the more sensitive to wind., definitely. The funny thing, not, about the big bodyworks reaction to sidewinds is you just get pushed over. With stockish bodywork it leans over and you are much more aware of what is happening.
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Thinking about streamlining a number of fast cars with very smooth shapes had various fins and additions to the bodywork because of stability issues at speed.
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Many will try, only 1 will succeed. Sooner or later, everything will come together to achieve the quest for the breaking of both Bills most awesome record of 311 in the 1.5 mile and the 300 in 1 mile record. I am but 1 contender with a dream. Those of us trying to achieve our goals appreciate everyone's love of this sport. Just being a small part of the quest keeps me happy and sane. I'm a long shot contender, Don and his team are the favorites. But maybe, just maybe the kid from Toledo could get lucky. The fact alone that we try, that we compete, that we love our sport so much is what gives me reason to try again and again. It took me 4 years to break the Nitrous record and hold it for 9 years. So very blessed to have had that honor. Just to be mentioned in the same sentence as Bill Warner is an honor. Thanks for everyone's support of our sport. Hope to see many of you next year. Now where did I place that wrench???
(http://www.1st-to-the-finish-line.com/images/IMG_4265.JPG)
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Guy, have you thought about putting your bike in a wind tunnel?
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the bodywork has already been in the tunnel in So. Cal. when developed by Kent Riches at AirTech Streamlining. I would love to take it to the A2 tunnel if I could ever get free time and additional resources to afford it.
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It should be part of the budget. If you intend to go really fast it's actually a must do!!. Say 3 hrs at 500, you could learn whether it's safe enough for your intended speed goals. You actually have to do it, I insist. Listen to your peers if your serious about it. I would say after 250 it gets very serious.
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the bodywork has already been in the tunnel in So. Cal. when developed by Kent Riches at AirTech Streamlining. I would love to take it to the A2 tunnel if I could ever get free time and additional resources to afford it.
Guy,
remember the discussion we had about data logging/analysis??
IMO, Wind tunnel work is even more important; life & death.
GET AN EXPERT TO PLAN & MANAGE the WORK AND JUST DO IT, NOT OPTIONAL.
I say this as your friend,
Karl
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Steve and Karl,
Thank you so much for caring about me and my program. I am in total agreement with both of your assessments. But my original statement stands. When time and resources permits. I'm well aware of the importance and will carry out tunnel testing when time and resources permits. There is NO budget when you build and race these things. You spend what you have to spend when you can spend it. You are under the mistaken premise that I have a money tree in my backyard and between my day job (60hr/wk), Tiger Racing products and Tiger Holster Systems, and the fact that I am only home on the weekends, I have a vast amount of time.
My weekends, (besides picking up the dog shit, mowing the lawns, do my company paperwork, dealing with both my web businesses, seeing my Mom at assisted living, taking my wife out for a date, going to church, and maybe, just maybe I can get a couple hours in the Tiger Racing garage), are not free and clear. My vacation time is divided between races and family so tunnel time will happen when I can get it to happen.
I know your hearts are in the right places and you care for my safety, but so do I. So take a breather guys, I'm a long way from 250 let alone faster. The tunnel will happen, just not this year, maybe in the spring or later, but it will happen.
Guy
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I'm a long way from 250 let alone faster. The tunnel will happen, just not this year, maybe in the spring or later, but it will happen.
Guy
How fast you been so far testing the bike ? I`m interested in how the brakes work when speeds going up.
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The roller bearing hydraulic Beringer Brakes are the smoothest I have ever run. On my 187 naked run I purposely tried an emergency stop and slowed so smoothly and quickly I had to get back on it just to get to the short shutdown turnout.
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Well to go the speeds you built it for requires you to eat, sleep and shit thinking of every aspect of what's going to go down chasing the 300mph goal. So you have handling issues already as did Don, the bodywork doesn't like wind. I'm aware of what that feels like as we had handling issues with one of our bikes at 240ish. So I know if it was me, I wouldn't even attempt to ride it again until wind tunnel testing was completed. Instead of going to the next meet, go to the tunnel. It will be a very long time for anyone to go 300 in a mile, just my opinion. You'll see!!
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I know you're completely right Steve. Don and I have about 15 square feet of sail to contend with. All the wind tunnel testing in the world isn't going to change that if we continue to use what we have. The one small advantage I have is that the "Flying Tiger" just received another full scanning into CFD here in Ann Arbor, Mi
Tunnel testing isn't the only way to realize bodywork issues. CFD analysis is even more telling because you can change the conditions and position of all air flow patterns in software to see a completed outcome. If the front fender turns 1" to the left or right, what's going to happen?? If my shoulders peek 2inches higher, what's going to happen?? Where will the air re-attach itself to the rear of the bodywork from over my helmet? How much of a vortice will my rear wheel produce in front of the tire under the belly pan without covering louvers?
I want badly to also take it to the tunnel for additional analysis besides CFD, it only makes sense. And I do eat, sleep and shit thinking about issues with my bike from all fronts, not just bodywork. The CFD analysis showed me I had the front of the belly pan turned caddy whompis about 1/4" to the starboard side which in turn caused the nose of the body work to be pointed 1/4" in the wrong direction. We fixed that. And unless you have your bodywork jigged when installing, a tunnel wouldn't tell you this. I now use a jig to mount the belly pan which is the centerpiece for installing the rest of my bodywork.
So after all this rhetoric, I do PLAN on tunnel testing because it needs to be done. I can't tell you how much I appreciate your wanting me to be safe and successful. I used to share everything I did with this bike, but it seems that at every turn, I'm just not doing it right. Maybe so, but there is no one to blame for anything in my program but me. Not my sponsors, friends in the biz or fellow racers. But when I do go fast or not (however fast that may be), it will be because of my decisions and no blame or fame on anyone else's part.
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Steve and Karl,
... There is NO budget when you build and race these things...
Guy,
My friend Guy,
You are
ABSOLUTELY...
POSITIVELY...
UNEQUIVOCALLY...
WRONG :D
Everyone is ALWAYS working under a budget whether they want to think about it or not.
project mgmt 101
1. you have a goal, state it as specifically as you can - write it down,
2. you know you are gonna have to spend money for stuff, but you have constraints, add it up, be as specific as you can - write it down,
3. you know you want to do this project in some time frame, you have time constraints - write your est completion date
4. iterate on 1, 2, 3 until technical hurdles, cost, time are doable for you.
Now you have a written objective, budget, schedule = Project Plan.
Iterate on the plan as stuff changes, maybe you win the lottery, maybe you have to delay a year, whatever
Wasn't that easy?
I did oil field project management for a long time and it alway makes me grin when people are doing stuff and say they have no budget :bike:
karl
oh, almost forgot # 1 = BE SAFE
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My racing budget just went down with three kids... :lol: ....my biggest hurdle is TIME! Days seem to go faster and faster... :(
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Karl, I should have "No FIXED budget". It cost what it cost. But if you wish to donate huge sums of money to my efforts, I wouldn't turn it down.
Always good to banter with you my friend.
Guy
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I overspent for years but since kids I set a budget and take the family as a family trip. We all enjoy the atmosphere of racing :)
I have been constant upgrading and changing things.
I will never attempt the 300mph but will take my 750 and 1000 to their potentials, Well someday I hope.
Godspeed all....
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Since we are on the subject, I'm going to throw the question/observation out there just to try and learn.
What procedure can tell you the effects of wind on your body work when the wind is coming from different directions as you travel down the track? I've seen wind tunnel test and looked at CFD data, but can they really give you a sense of what happens when wind gust hits the bike at different angles within a single run?
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Since we are on the subject, I'm going to throw the question/observation out there just to try and learn.
What procedure can tell you the effects of wind on your body work when the wind is coming from different directions as you travel down the track? I've seen wind tunnel test and looked at CFD data, but can they really give you a sense of what happens when wind gust hits the bike at different angles within a single run?
Wow, that's a great question :thumb:
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No. But they help get you closer. CFD is virtual. Wind Tunnel is symmetric. There's not much to do what you ask. But having now been down the track with terrible side winds I can tell you how much my bodywork acted in the wind and it was no fun.
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"But having now been down the track with terrible side winds I can tell you how much bodywork acted and it was no fun. "
Went down track at Mojave on near stock Busa body and could have dragged my knee like a roadracer--going straight---
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311 is from my perspective, a 70% chance of getting your life over quick. Bill was the best, and even he did not survive. It makes me worried someone else might end up like Bill............and for what? A trophy, your 15 minutes of fame? I just cannot get my mind around it. If I ever go 311, it will be in an aircraft. A jet. The mark he set is just too dang high...............do not attempt to do it if you love your family, IMO.
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311 is from my perspective, a 70% chance of getting your life over quick. Bill was the best, and even he did not survive. It makes me worried someone else might end up like Bill............and for what? A trophy, your 15 minutes of fame? I just cannot get my mind around it. If I ever go 311, it will be in an aircraft. A jet. The mark he set is just too dang high...............do not attempt to do it if you love your family, IMO.
Your worries are properly founded on history. Bill did die from this sport as have others who went much slower. I agree you are flirting with death more so at higher speeds and for what? A trophy, a certificate, bragging rights??
YES, for all of those and the fact that you did it and succeeded. Why do humans do extraordinary things in many peoples mind that are stupid? For me, it's the challenge. How can I succeed where others fail? How can I even think to walk in the shoes of the speed greats like a Bill Warner or a Shane Stubbs, John Noonan or a Don Hass? There are many others who have gone faster than me and this conversation happened when motorcycle riders were knocking on the door of 200mph, 250mph and now 300mph. When does it stop? Don't know.
As much as I appreciate the concern many have for our well being (those of us who dare to go faster) I won't let those fears stop me from attempting to break that ceiling. Jumping out of a perfectly good airplane is crazy too but it doesn't stop those from doing it anyways. Riding a motorcycle on todays highways with people texting and not watching where they are going scare me more. I will just have to go with the fact that I'm a bit brain dead and haven't yet seen God on one of my runs. But until I do, I will just keep at it until I meet my goal or become unable to continue with the sport that I love so much.
Guy
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we sure dont do it for the money :hys:
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Believe it or not, guys, I do understand.................it is the same type of drive that put an American on the moon...........I just hate to see anyone get hurt, that's all. I am just an aging street bike rider, not a racer in any way, shape, or form............but I do understand your motivations. Sometimes, you just have to do what you have to do, come Hell or High Water. You have my respect and admiration. :tu:
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You lsr guys are in a league of your own. I wish all of you the best of luck and hope everyone can stay safe out there.
I think a lot of people think just slap on some slippery bodywork and pour the coals to her. I for one kinda thought that and feel dumb for thinking it. I figured your going so fast all you had to deal with was the wind you were coming head on with.
I guess if it was easy everybody would do it.
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Just about as easy as catchin' a bullet in your teeth, IMO. :slt:
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Since we are on the subject, I'm going to throw the question/observation out there just to try and learn.
What procedure can tell you the effects of wind on your body work when the wind is coming from different directions as you travel down the track? I've seen wind tunnel test and looked at CFD data, but can they really give you a sense of what happens when wind gust hits the bike at different angles within a single run?
it can get hairy quickly as it pushes you off your straight line. You have to decide to quickly to either roll off the throttle or lean into it to get back on your line. Smart thing to do is shut it down.
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Having land speed aero tested bodywork to go quicker is great if the wind is in the same damn direction to keep you safe. Maybe that happens in the US. If you had that bodywork on at Elvington in the UK you would seriously risk being blown over on the bike from side gusting
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A lot of wise and knowledgable men have spoken in this thread. Aerodynamics is certainly key in going fast. Least amount of drag with the right amount of downforce. LSR fairings do not tolerate hardly any crosswind, so leave the bike in the trailer if the winds are not favorable.
Horsepower is not an issue. One phonecall to Richard, Sean or Seb (in no particular order) and you will have more than enough to go 300+ in the mile or 311+ in the 1.5. It is all the other things that need to be right. Correct wheelbase, swing arm length, weight distribution, CG etc etc. Then comes the analysis of the data logging so maximum HP for every segment can be applied during the entire run.
Large Formula 1 team use to have two wind tunnels ((different scale cars) operating 24/7 before the rules clamped down on that in the interest of cost. They also use CFD extensively to simulate different conditions, including sideslip and crosswind. They can tell with fairly good accuracy how new bits on the car will behave on the track. But they have armies of aerodynamicists, many with PHDs and still don't always get it right mostly due to calibration errors. The bottom line is; even a well tested fairing may not perform as expected during actual use. Trial and error. Bill, as described earlier in this thread, tirelessly pursued perfection in all areas mentioned above.
Records will always be broken; it is just a matter of time. Maybe Bill's speeds will be exceeded in our lifetime, maybe not. The bar is high.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v621/Wolf14/image_3.jpeg) (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/Wolf14/media/image_3.jpeg.html)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v621/Wolf14/image_2.jpeg) (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/Wolf14/media/image_2.jpeg.html)
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The other issue in the UK at Elvington is the noise restrictions. Exhausts have to be under 105db, so silenced. At 30 psi that's maybe 50hp difference in reduced power
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Is Elvington the only option in the UK? Are there any other possibilities? Is anybody pursuing other opportunities?
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That is Bills old "street bike" shown in the wind tunnel. It was a FIM, SCTA legal MPS bike. Its fastest run was 279+, I think.
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The other issue in the UK at Elvington is the noise restrictions. Exhausts have to be under 105db, so silenced. At 30 psi that's maybe 50hp difference in reduced power
Why the DB restriction on a closed course high speed run? I don't get it. These are NOT street bikes. :?
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It's the neighbors.
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OMG, I forgot about the "neighbors". England is so small there are prolly homes all over that track area. Kinda like the "noise abatement" procedures some Airlines Pilots have to take when departing because of "the neighbors". Sucks for a hi-speed pass on a beautifully built bike, IMO. Oh, well. It is what it is. If I were in charge I would set the DB level at 150 and leave it at that. But, I ain't in charge of nuthin' but my checking account. And the bills get most of that.
Computer tells me that 150DB is like a jet take off at 25 meters = point of eardrum rupture. :mrgreen:
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Its very contentious. The airfield was there long before the houses & people buy houses next to an airfield that is used for motorsport & then complain like its someone elses fault because of the noise. Stupid fucks actually get listened to by the local councils.
The only other runway is Woodbridge & has deteriorated too much combined with the RAF cancelling the last bunch of events that tried to be held there.
This is also the reason only the 1 mile is being done rather than 1.4 at Elvington. To give a half mile clearance from the complaining tosser in his house.
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You would think that 110-115 db would be "reasonable". It is not like they have these meets and practices every day, I would assume. I say "Let the 'Neighbors' eat cake", and let the dbs go to 115 at least. The "council" sucketh, IMO.
My computer says 115DB is the equivalent of a "loud Rock Concert". That is my definition of "reasonable". 105 is kids stuff.
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Two reasons it will be broken
Hass/Serifini racings hayabusa
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UTFTDbc3F6Q
Tredway/Stubbs Racing Hayabusa
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yRLVz0q7KLY
I had said yes on the first page. I had reasons.
Sorry both bikes too good not to share again.
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Quite right on all of it !
Guy's crash, and Shane's "moment" bring us
back to the vagaries of "the wind.".......
Some motorcycles look very good in the wind tunnel:
Stable, smooth and efficient.
Most are less so.
Quartering winds are a problem.
Bikes can (as we all know) be
"blown off course" by a strong side wind.
A wind tunnel that can pivot the bike on the
vertical axis will allow assessment of
the bikes susceptibility to "yaw."
As part of motorcycle dynamics, "yaw" is usually
accompanied by "roll" - the bike also leans to one side.
The Caputo bike and the Hass bike both have (had)
extensive "flat bottoms." These go right from the
front to the back, and are pretty wide.
In cars, this flat bottom can be used for significant "grounds effects,"
which allow high down-force, and "keep the car on the ground."
Some race cars have more "down force" than the weight of the car.
That means that they could literally drive upside down !
How does that work out with bikes ?
The Caputo and Hass bikes are also pretty tall, and both have
(had) a lot of "vertical side area" that is part of the "flat bottom" design.
The "vertical side area" makes the bike much more susceptible
to side winds - and that results in more yaw and roll.
When the bike rolls (leans), the flat bottom is higher on one side than the other.
That happens with race cars too, but there is a significant difference:
The car might be 5 feet wide, and might tilt one inch, a 1- 60 ratio.
The bike, on the other hand, might be
20 inches wide and "tilt" two inches, or a 1-10 ratio
Cars are very careful about how they allow air to "spill out"
from underneath, since they do not not want more down force
on one side than the other, and thus upset the suspension.
"Skirts" and tunnels are used to assist control of the air.
The bikes we are talking about here have no skirts or tunnels,
and so very little control of "spillage."
If these (potentially 300 mph) bikes are generating significant downforce,
and that is lost - suddenly - in a gust of side wind, what happens to
the downforce and the bike stability ?
Does the sudden loss of downforce also
suddenly "lift" the bike off it's tires ?
Does (because of the roll) the bike get "thrown sideways ?
EVERY very-fast sit-on LSR bike (with a fairing)
so far has had a round bottom.
Is there a reason for that ?
A lot of wise and knowledgable men have spoken in this thread. Aerodynamics is certainly key in going fast. Least amount of drag with the right amount of downforce. LSR fairings do not tolerate hardly any crosswind, so leave the bike in the trailer if the winds are not favorable.
Horsepower is not an issue. One phonecall to Richard, Sean or Seb (in no particular order) and you will have more than enough to go 300+ in the mile or 311+ in the 1.5. It is all the other things that need to be right. Correct wheelbase, swing arm length, weight distribution, CG etc etc. Then comes the analysis of the data logging so maximum HP for every segment can be applied during the entire run.
Large Formula 1 team use to have two wind tunnels ((different scale cars) operating 24/7 before the rules clamped down on that in the interest of cost. They also use CFD extensively to simulate different conditions, including sideslip and crosswind. They can tell with fairly good accuracy how new bits on the car will behave on the track. But they have armies of aerodynamicists, many with PHDs and still don't always get it right mostly due to calibration errors. The bottom line is; even a well tested fairing may not perform as expected during actual use. Trial and error. Bill, as described earlier in this thread, tirelessly pursued perfection in all areas mentioned above.
Records will always be broken; it is just a matter of time. Maybe Bill's speeds will be exceeded in our lifetime, maybe not. The bar is high.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v621/Wolf14/image_3.jpeg) (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/Wolf14/media/image_3.jpeg.html)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v621/Wolf14/image_2.jpeg) (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/Wolf14/media/image_2.jpeg.html)
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Scott in 2012 we has 6-8mph quartering wind at the Shootout , at over 250 mph (with my very small fairings in comparison to some ) i had enough lean to wear the corner off the lower rhs , my belly pan was flat bottomed for 8" width most of its length and 3" off the ground at rest and i think pretty close to the ground at speed ,
sort of scares me to look at the Hass video and see how wide and low the bike is even without downforce
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SCOTT YOU BRING UP SOME GOOD POINTS. I actually have been thinking a lot about what you said.
ok done. I personally believe now that regardless of the fairing extreme caution should be taken as far a wind conditions. I agree with your assertion about the belly pan becoming a air foil at higher lean angles causing lift and there for less traction and steering when it is need most. I am deciding on what fairing to go with and how to modify it. However my goal not as fast as these gentleman. Did Bills have a flat or round bottom?
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Round
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(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v621/Wolf14/Mobile%20Uploads/image_5.jpeg) (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/Wolf14/media/Mobile%20Uploads/image_5.jpeg.html)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v621/Wolf14/Mobile%20Uploads/image_6.jpeg) (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/Wolf14/media/Mobile%20Uploads/image_6.jpeg.html)
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Wow, I had never seen these photos (and I paid for this session). Bill stopped at A2 on his way to Maxton to run the bike for the first time. He learned the bike had front lift as built and on the track that one waste gate was not enough for a GTX42. He only ran half track that weekend but had some wild rides. His quote was "Compaired to the streetbike, this one is fast". He built a chin spoiler and added a second waste gate. Two weeks later he went to Loring and the rest is history. LSL
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Can you run those big fairings with open bottom ?
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WOLF photo.................
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v621/Wolf14/Mobile%20Uploads/image_5.jpeg) (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/Wolf14/media/Mobile%20Uploads/image_5.jpeg.html)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v621/Wolf14/Mobile%20Uploads/image_6.jpeg) (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/Wolf14/media/Mobile%20Uploads/image_6.jpeg.html)
There are a few of us that used an extended exhaust
pipe on our fast turbo bikes. Some are VERY fast.
A year or two ago, the Formula One (F1) guys were blowing
their exhaust over wings at the rear of their cars.
This extra airflow caused increased down-force,
at no extra horsepower cost from the engines,
since the exhaust was "waste" horsepower.
You will see that on Bill's bike, the pipe, when blowing
out the right side of the bike, will tend to draw a lot
of air past the right side of the bike, when at speed.
Could that "blowing" have caused a high-speed differential
pressure on the right side of the bike, especially as compared
to the left side ?
Would the "blowing" create a "low pressure" area on the bike
right side that would increase with both speed and applied-horsepower ?
Would that sort of pressure differential cause
the bike to "tend to turn to the right ?"
Is it possible that, the faster the bike accelerated,
the faster that "zone of instability" would "unexpectedly" arrive to the rider?
Bill's final run turned from astounding acceleration
to crash at over 300 mph in less than a mile.
With a turn to the right......................