SuzukiHayabusa.org
GENERAL => MAXIMUM OVERDRIVE => Topic started by: zrxdean on July 19, 2017, 10:01:51 AM
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Hey folks, here's my new low-buck project. I started this build (in 2015) with a bunch of extra parts I had lying around - a ZX10 frame, GSXR wheels, Busa fork, and a hurt Gen 3 engine I bought for $100 off Craigslist. After putting in a good Gen 2 crank I had and going over the Gen 3 engine, I could never get it running. It would try to start, but I think there is either a harness imcompatibility, or the tooth pitch on the crank / clutch basket changed. I sent out the Gen 3 crank to be repaired, and planned to swap it out and try again.
Life got busy, I worked on my house for a year, had some other delays, and finally got back to this project a few months ago. I found a running Gen 2 engine for $700 locally and put it in the chassis. Started right up, yay, back in business. I'll rebuild the Gen 3 engine and have it as a spare when I melt this one :)
Eventually, I plan to run E85 and nitrous, but for now I will try to work out the kinks with a stock engine and E85. I plan to use pails of VP C85 and not worry about pump fuel quality.
The fuel system uses a stock injectors (410cc), a Walbro 255lph pump and Aeromotive regulator. The idea is to flash the ECU for E85 at 43psi, and fine tune with a PC3. When it gets sprayed (dry spraybar), I will Y off the nitrous solenoid and knock it down to 25psi or so with an old Carolina Cycle regulator and feed that into the boost reference port on the FP regulator. I’ll figure the fuel/nitrous ratios by weight before testing on the dyno. I kinda like the idea of a mechanical fuel bump, as long as I can get the ratios right. Less electronics, I want to keep the bike simple, just a WEGO wideband for logging and a PC3 for tuning.
Once the bike is set up, I’ll build the engine for 75hp worth of spray. The fuel system should be good for 250hp on E85 if the injectors can handle 70psi reliably. With a 5lb bottle and a safe tuneup, I should be able to spray for a whole mile :)
Dean
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Ive wanted to do a dry shot like that for a long time, but never got around to it. once the reg is set for X jetting, you dont have to worry about map switching or other weirdness messing up
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A fuel recommendation. Ignite race fuel. They have several Ethanol blends ranging from E85 to Ignite 114. I've been using 114 for several years and since I switched over, never have had a sign of detonation. Good stuff.
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Looks great Dean!
Love the cherry bomb muffler!! :hys:
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That's the kinda cheap bastard I am :) It matches rustoleum red perfectly!
Thanks for the fuel tip Ransom, but I don't see a distributor in Georgia. Have you had trouble with C85?
Dean
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HUH whats C85???
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C85 is VP's version of E85. I "think" the ethanol content is around 80%, while E85 is closer to 75%.
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That's the kinda cheap bastard I am :) It matches rustoleum red perfectly!
Thanks for the fuel tip Ransom, but I don't see a distributor in Georgia. Have you had trouble with C85?
Dean
Not really. C85 has a lower ethanol content that Ignite 114 and makes a few HP less on the dyno. However, C85 is a whole lot better than pump E85. I do like C85 for cold weather starts. In Maine, when the morning temps are in the 40s, I do have boost my bike on the first start of the day when using Ignite. After that it starts just fine.
I got started with Ignite because some of the really fast nitrous car guys (drag racing) were using it and when they had detonation problems with C85. But we are talking BIG shots too.
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Glad to see you back in the game Dean. You have done it all in LSR. Now enjoy your family and play with your ZX-10R as time allows. Nice when you don't have to be at any particular race, just go when you feel like it. That's what Steve and I are doing and it is a Kawasaki drag bike. :bike: LSR
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Thanks for the info Ransom, I think my moderate shot will be ok with C85, the convenience of an in-town VP provider is hard to beat.
Larry, I'd love to see a picture of the drag bike, is it a NA ZX14?
I got the brakes on last night, took a little convincing to get the Suzuki and Kawasaki parts playing together :)
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Dean: Scroll down to the ZX-14 section and click on the Carbonator thread. Guess I have been hanging around greenie guys too much. LSL
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Nice!
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Thanks for the info Ransom, I think my moderate shot will be ok with C85, the convenience of an in-town VP provider is hard to beat.
Larry, I'd love to see a picture of the drag bike, is it a NA ZX14?
I got the brakes on last night, took a little convincing to get the Suzuki and Kawasaki parts playing together :)
Looks good Dean , wondered when we would see you back
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Hey Greg, it's good to be working on a bike again. :fiddy:
Got the injectors back, they flow 560cc at 75psi :)
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Speaking of Ethanol. When you start tuning, you will need about 30% more fuel going from pump gas to E85. If you use "the gas scale", AFR should be a touch richer than with pump gas. Typically, on motor only pump gas likes 13.1-13.2 for most power while E85 likes 12.8-12.9. However, Ethanol has a bigger tuning window. Timing is the same as gasoline. Under nitrous, aim for a AFR (gas scale) of 11.5:1. Bigger the shot, the richer you can go.
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Thanks Ransom. I was expecting to gain a few NA hp advancing the ignition timing, did you not find any advantage? Do you retard with spray?
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You will gain a few HP just from going to ethanol from pump. A couple of degrees of timing will also help, but ethanol doesn't like a bunch of timing because of the way it burns. The flame front is quicker but is less explosive than gas based race fuel. Timing with nitrous: I have found it makes just as much power with a more conservative timing curve. 2 degrees for the first 50 HP and 3 degrees there after. e.g. 7 degrees out for 100 HP shot. 13 degrees out for 200 HP shot.
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Good to know. I think I will just buy a Woolich ECU tuning kit and I can experiment with timing, and fine tune fuel without the PC3.
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Decided to just send Ryan Schnitz the ECU for flashing and use the PC for fine tuning.
Got the sprockets lined up, chain guard mounted, brakes bled, kill tether wired, 24V starting, fuel and coolant systems leak tested, bike up to temp and running OK.
I have a lot of front sprockets for the ZX10, but need to order some 525 rears for the GSXR wheel. I have no clue what gearing to shoot for in the half mile, any suggestions? Was thinking to order a 41.
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Bike is almost ready for Clayton. Got the WEGO logger working, chassis sorted, and it's burning E85 nicely. Thanks to Ryan Schnitz for fast service, I have 4 degrees advance on base map, and 4 retard on map 2.
It's geared for 170 in 5th, so if it runs right we'll see what it can do. The cherry bomb actually sounds pretty good :mrgreen:
Dean
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Bike is almost ready for Clayton. Got the WEGO logger working, chassis sorted, and it's burning E85 nicely. Thanks to Ryan Schnitz for fast service, I have 4 degrees advance on base map, and 4 retard on map 2.
It's geared for 170 in 5th, so if it runs right we'll see what it can do. The cherry bomb actually sounds pretty good :mrgreen:
Dean
Looking good Dean. Can't wait to hear how it runs. :thumb:
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Swapped out the fork and fabbed some bottle brackets for the future :mrgreen:
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Took it to the dragstrip last night and got three passes. I had set the base fuel pressure at 40 and it was lean up top. Got it pretty close and ran 9.76 @ 146. Engine felt great, torquey. Everyone loved the cherry bomb :). Dean
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lets see a pic of the tuck with the bars way down there?
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Definitely not built for comfort :)
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I took the bike to the Clayton 1/2 mile event yesterday. Nice venue, and about 100 Corvettes, Hellcats, ZL1s, Vipers, a few exotics and race cars. I saw a 3L streamliner makes its very first shakedown pass after 9 years in the making, a beautiful sight.
After running my bike smoothly on the 1/4 mile a few weeks ago (and waiting 3 hours in line) I let it rip on my first pass. All smooth through the quarter, then the track got a bit rough and I rapidly went into a major lock-to-lock tankslapper. I saw God, let loose on the bars as much as I could and sat up. It settled and I rode back to the trailer feeling like the luckiest guy on the planet.
So, I'm going to go over the chassis and make sure nothing is wrong, then raise the front and lower the rear to see if I can make it more stable.
Until next year,
Dean
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Do you think raising the front would help ?
I had a wobble at 234mph few weeks ago and think it was because front was only slightly touching the ground,
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Good save Dean, you have already ticked that bucket list item , no need to do it again
Also double check your headstem bearings , tire pressure, wheel alignment and that the frame and swingarm are perfectly straight
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Also check your swingarm bushes, don't forget to slacken off the chain as a fully adjusted chain can mask any play that might be there,,
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Thanks for the suggestions folks. The bike is only making ~170hp, so the front end is well planted after first gear.
I'll check the head bearing torque and then swap out the Trac Dynamics lowered fork with a stock set I have, then drop the rear end. This will give me a bit more rake and trail. I'll also look at the wheel bearings, swingarm bearing, and general straightness of everything.
I also could have hit a bump just as I was shifting into 6th, and maybe this wouldn't have happened again on the next pass. This bike is being built for lake racing, so I don't need hard acceleration anyway.
Dean
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Hey, Dean! Great to see you back!
I was wondering, what is the damper setup? I've had a few 1k's, and an '06 10R, and I always thought they were jittery.
I had a few spirited head shakes at Maxton, over those bumps, for sure....even on big bikes. I think that's when I just decided to always crank the damper up to near max, lol. I'm not sure if you are using a front strap, but I also found that less suspension compliance is never good. And, of course, it is usually something simple causing the issue, right? I never like to make too many changes at once.
Anyway, I am nobody to really give you advice; most of all, nice to see you running again. Be safe, and best of luck with your new projects!
Shane
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Hello Shane, long time. The damper is a OEM Busa unit, but I think it had it's oil changed at some point. No front strap. I'll do my best to figure it out, I definitely do not want to go through that again. Give my best to Racheal, Dean
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Hey folks, a few updates. I decided to switch to a wet nitrous system. The mechanical fuel bump was too slow and had too many parts, so I'm going old school. After going back and forth with the folks at NX, we came up with pills for E85 and 43psi fuel pressure. This way I can tune the motor with the PC, then spray on top with nozzles and not have to worry about the mixture (I hope). Plumbing it was a huge PITA, but after a few different attempts, I found room for the solenoids and hard lines on the top side of the throttle bodies. Fun stuff.
My plan is to run El Mirage in May in the gas class, running U4.4. If that goes well, I'll put all the nitrous stuff on and spray it in June or a later meet.
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Side pic.
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Looks very clean :) you have nothing but the rider hanging out in the breeze
did you find a reason for the headshake ?
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Looks very clean :) you have nothing but the rider hanging out in the breeze
did you find a reason for the headshake ?
I didn't find anything that was wrong, no. I raised the front, lowered the rear, retorqued the steering head, and went over everything else I could think of. I'll take it to the drag strip again and see how it feels, but I can't truly test it wide open until El Mirage.
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Long time no update. Only took 5 years, but I finally made it out to El Mirage this past weekend. It was great to see everyone and be at a LSR event with a bike. The M class records are only a few years old at EM, so I was running on a 172 record in M-F 1000. Leslie Murray was there in M-G 1000, so I switched to fuel. I bumped it to 173 on an OK pass on Saturday, spent 4 hours dropping the engine to certify engine size, and was done for the day. The data showed it was pretty rich for the elevation, and after tweaking the map it ran 180.9 on Sunday morning, and I was happy with that. I hope to go back in May with the wet kit mounted and see if I can melt some pistons.
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Congratulations Dean... good baseline with your dirt bike :bike:
N20... I'd like to suggest that you test your system before you test it on the race course. Get a good scale, spray your fuel into separate containers... I used baby food jars... weigh... do it again... make sure they all are the same. I used 30 seconds because it was easy to calculate, just be consistent. Then weigh your bottle and spray the N20 as well and weigh to calculate what was used. If you are using gas... look for 5 to 5.5 lbs of N20 for every 1 lb of gas... 6 may be too lean. How do you plan to pull timing? 1 lb of N20 per minute is about 10 HP... you should probably pull 1 degree for every 10 HP
Remember you will be on the button a lot longer than the drag racers... a little rich is your friend.
Be careful
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That's a badass record on dirt! Congrats Dean, on getting there and then doing it, it's a nice bump
Pics are great, detailed info is awesome.
Great input from the stainless among us as well :bigear:
Take care and be safe
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I had to read that twice
you say it so nonchalantly
"spent four hours pulling the motor "
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Thanks Stainless, I had copied this advice from LR.com years ago and plan to do this. My first attempt at this test led me to the wet kit. I'll be using alcohol, so I'll shoot for 1.3 X your weight ratio and see how it looks. I'm hoping the alcohol and timing retard will give me some cushion for 5th & 6th gear at EM. I will pull 4 degrees via ECU flash. 5Lb bottle at a target of 800psi. Will see what sort of power it makes on the dyno.
If you found flow differences across pills, did you just swap them out, or did you redrill? I'll be running 43psi fuel pressure, so little tiny holes.
Cheers,
Dean
Congratulations Dean... good baseline with your dirt bike :bike:
N20... I'd like to suggest that you test your system before you test it on the race course. Get a good scale, spray your fuel into separate containers... I used baby food jars... weigh... do it again... make sure they all are the same. I used 30 seconds because it was easy to calculate, just be consistent. Then weigh your bottle and spray the N20 as well and weigh to calculate what was used. If you are using gas... look for 5 to 5.5 lbs of N20 for every 1 lb of gas... 6 may be too lean. How do you plan to pull timing? 1 lb of N20 per minute is about 10 HP... you should probably pull 1 degree for every 10 HP
Remember you will be on the button a lot longer than the drag racers... a little rich is your friend.
Be careful
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That's a badass record on dirt! Congrats Dean, on getting there and then doing it, it's a nice bump
Pics are great, detailed info is awesome.
Great input from the stainless among us as well :bigear:
Take care and be safe
Thanks :tu:
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I had to read that twice
you say it so nonchalantly
"spent four hours pulling the motor "
Yep, the ZX10 frame does not make it easy - no access to spark plug holes. Jim Higgins was there having his Busa checked and gave me some sh*t - "about 5 more minutes and I'll be all set, hahahahaha" :mrgreen:
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Dean, years ago none of the manufacturers of N20 had their shit together. I found pills with identical numbers were up to 20% difference in flow for 30 seconds... of course that was after the first engine meltdown. Same for the N20 side. Their combinations were generally lean for long pulls, big power until they consumed aluminum. I just mixed and matched, kept buying and returning until we had consistency... We were on carbs so the fuel was regulated to 3 to for carbs and 10 to the N20 system. Our worst failure was when the small N20 solenoid froze open after a 45 second run at Bonneville... of course the gas shut off as advertised... moved to the largest one they had and tested it for 60 seconds... it worked... which was good since my longest successful button was 52 IIRC....
Are you using a sequence box or just turning it full on? If on a pulse box, be sure it will run long enough, some have shutoff timers. Of course if just running the 1.3 20 seconds of juice should be close to enough.
So yes I would test every jet, establish combinations that should work for different power levels and probably start rich as possible.
I'm thinking about running N20 again... maybe they next time they raise my social security :crackup:
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Got it, I'll see how far off the pills are and go from there. No progressive control planned, just a little ballast :)
I'll cover your beer costs at EM (offer good up to 1 case per event, some restrictions apply :mrgreen:)
Dean, years ago none of the manufacturers of N20 had their shit together. I found pills with identical numbers were up to 20% difference in flow for 30 seconds... of course that was after the first engine meltdown. Same for the N20 side. Their combinations were generally lean for long pulls, big power until they consumed aluminum. I just mixed and matched, kept buying and returning until we had consistency... We were on carbs so the fuel was regulated to 3 to for carbs and 10 to the N20 system. Our worst failure was when the small N20 solenoid froze open after a 45 second run at Bonneville... of course the gas shut off as advertised... moved to the largest one they had and tested it for 60 seconds... it worked... which was good since my longest successful button was 52 IIRC....
Are you using a sequence box or just turning it full on? If on a pulse box, be sure it will run long enough, some have shutoff timers. Of course if just running the 1.3 20 seconds of juice should be close to enough.
So yes I would test every jet, establish combinations that should work for different power levels and probably start rich as possible.
I'm thinking about running N20 again... maybe they next time they raise my social security :crackup:
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I had to read that twice
you say it so nonchalantly
"spent four hours pulling the motor "
Yep, the ZX10 frame does not make it easy - no access to spark plug holes. Jim Higgins was there having his Busa checked and gave me some sh*t - "about 5 more minutes and I'll be all set, hahahahaha" :mrgreen:
The ZX 10,12 and 14 can be a pain to work on,, On my 12 I have cleaned up the area above the head, below the plenium, and modified tools which make it much easier to acess the plugs and remove the head, etc
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it was great to see Dean , coming all the way from Georgia! And there is a reason we do Busas-- and the SRAD bikes as they have the same architecture as the Busa---or should I say it is the other way around as the SRAD came out in 1996. Busa looks like my 750 on steroids!
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Dean, If you want any additional advice about the spray ... you can always just shot me an email.
ransom.t.holbrook@gmail.com
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Thanks Jim, and Ransom - I appreciate it. How is your bike these days?
Just because I like 5-year plans, I bought this off eBay recently, for the possible day I decide to stop filling bottles. An old stage 1 Velocity kit in good shape, GT2871R. A wicked bargain, there can't be many of these out there anymore.
Merry Xmas & HH to everyone, I'm looking forward to 2021.
Dean
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My nitrous LSR bike has just been setting and waiting for me to heal. I replace a lot of the suspension and the rear swing arm to get it to drive straight under lots of spray in 2017. Then in early 2018, I was ran over on the street by a teenager texting while driving. I was riding my track bike about 1 mile from my house. 21 broken bones and 3 shoulder surgeries later (newest was a total reverse replacement), I might be able to get back to the race track in 2021.
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Wow Ransom, I’m glad you’re alive! I hope your recovery goes well from this point. Also that the kid had plenty of insurance.
Looking forward to seeing the primer streak run again soon. Or pull the fairings off and go for fastest unblown? I need to check that, I think it’s Steve.
Dean
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I know this is off topic but how is that reverse shoulder replacement working for you?
I detached 3 of 4 shoulder tendons through the years due to abuse (if you're dumb you have to be tough).
The surgeon is saying that a reverse replacement is the only solid option but will limit my strength where I'll have to retire.
He says there are other options but they have a higher failure rate.
Thanks
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I had the surgery on August 17th and my last Physical Therapy will be next week. I have a lot of motion that I didn't have before, but of course it isn't "normal". Pain is GREATLY reduced and I can work on the dyno or a motorcycle again.
The limitations are I can't raise my arm straight up near my head and reach the small of my back without a 2 part motion, which is a limitation of the joint itself. However, I have nearly normal motion everywhere else. I can tuck, before my arm wouldn't rotate at all. My humerus head had completely rotted away and the surgeon had to cut into the bone a lot further than normal.
I have no restriction on weight lifting below my waist and suppose to be 25 lbs above the waist. But, I've been working out with 30 lb weights at PT. I've even been doing push ups, albeit on a 24" incline, but push ups none the less.
It takes a LONG time to recover, but it was the best decision I've made.
This is Important! Make sure the surgeon that operates has done a lot of reverse shoulders. When I did my research on the operation, that was the biggest determining factor of how successful the outcome would be.
Dean: Nope, The kid had the lowest coverage allowed. Paid enough for my insurance deductibles for 2 years.
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Thanks for the info, it is good to hear how things turn out for normal people, you know like motorcycle racers and firemen.
He said it was going to be a long road whatever choice I make, reverse replacement, cadaver graft/patch or superior capsule reconstruction but in my case the bone is solid so that's going for me.
It sounds like you are ahead of the game being 4 months post surgery which says as much about how hard you have worked as anything. :tu:
Take care of that shoulder and Merry Christmas
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I'm happy to hear the recovery is going well. Good luck to you and MJ in 2021 (and to us all).
I did some digging into the fastest unblown bike, and I think it's still Ryan O at 218.2 in Beeville 2013. Steve went 217.8 this year. I can't find a faster naked bike without a turbo. Thing is - Ryan's and Steve's bikes were not spraying - so I would think that your bonkers nitrous bike would go faster without the fairing. 220+ I would guess, without doing anything fancy to the chassis, just yank the fairing and zip tie things down.
Cheers :)
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Update on this project, which took a big step this past weekend.
I took the bike to Brian Livengood at Livengood Motorsports outside Atlanta, and tuned the bike for alcohol and a wet shot - 18N/14F. That went well, and it made 185hp on the motor and 230hp spraying.
The bike had gone 181mph in the same class at the Nov 2020 meet, so calculations (Sumner) predicted 195 with the extra power. I picked sprockets that would put me around that speed in 5th gear. The first pass went well, the course was great and there was a gusty quartering tailwind. With the 60lb of ballast it didn't break traction when I hit the button and went 194 for a new record. Got through impound (engine still sealed from Nov) and the log showed it was a bit rich, around 12:1.
I put in 23/17 pills in place of the 18/14s, pulled 4 degrees of timing and got back in line. No dyno pulls with this shot, but NX predicted ~75hp. This would get me in the magic zone of new hat joy if all went well. No one had broken 200 on a naked unblown 1000 before in the SCTA, but they were close, 197 & 198.
I get to the front of the line and warm up the engine, and it cuts out. I jiggle the kill switch and there is a loose connection somewhere. I do whatever I can in the minutes I have, and it seems to be working, but I have no idea if the bike will make it down the track. I take off, get into 6th and hit the button, the tire holds, but the bike is cutting out slightly, but it manages to stay running, and clocks 200.3. A patrol rode over and told me and I almost lost my mind with joy - it was sooo close!
John Noonan, who had been helping me for several years at El Mirage, showed up to push me back and took a bunch of pics, he seemed just as happy as I was. Thanks John.
The bike made it through impound, I got a new hat from Mike Stewart, and took more pictures. It didn't seem real, and I couldn't stop grinning. Eventually I look at the log, and it was super rich when spraying, 10.8, so there's more power in it if I switch out the fuel pills and replace the kill switch. So maybe another 4500 mile round trip this November :)
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Welcome back Dean. That is a bad M-Fer. Only those who do it know how many things have to go right for it to work especially with nitrous. Sure makes the long trip home a pleasure. Celebrate with a meal at Big Boy :biggrin: my treat. LSL
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Congratulations :rockwoot: That is way cool
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Woooohoooo now that's as good as it gets... congratulations on that new hat... maroon or merlot whatever color they call it.... looks good on ya.
Maybe 1 up on N20 instead of 1 down on fuel....
Very cool any way you look at it. :db:
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Thanks folks, I've still got the perma-grin :mrgreen:
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Dr. Dean did it well!! It was great to see him and all the rest of the folks at Elmo. It was good to welcome Dean to the club!
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Awesome!
When you are spraying for a mile or more, being a little rich is where you want to be. A LOT of heat happens past the 1/2 mile mark, EGTs go through the roof.
Now 10.8:1 (gas scale) is a touch or two rich. Mid-11s is where you want to be.
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Great job! That looks like quite the wild naked ride! Congrats!