SuzukiHayabusa.org
TECHNICAL => ALL MOTOR TALK => Topic started by: johnsmithbusa on August 06, 2006, 12:44:57 PM
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First off, let me say this, my dad would be furious and fire me if he knew i was posting this. This is what everybody would like to know about a ported Hayabusa head. We have spent a lot of time and money on the engine dyno to find out. We built a 1397 engine. I wont tell you what pistons were in it, but i will tell you that all motors were all 14.7-15:1 compression ratio when assembled. We left this engine on the dyno at all times and only changed the heads. We had 4 guys from the shop to purchase heads from people we felt were the most competitive. That way we knew we would get a "run of the mill" head, not one prepped special for us. We flowed every head from .100 to .450 lift that we purchased. Stock valves were used, and the springs and retainers were that of porters choice. We used a set of bored throttle bodies, our 385 lift cams (intake and exhaust) because some heads were only set up for this size camshaft. The cams were all set at 105 intake, 107 exhaust. We used the stock rods and crankshaft with counter balancer. We used 2003 ignition system, a sidewinder exhaust (can?t tell you which one). The dyno room was climate controlled (72-74 degrees Fahrenheit) and the motors were mapped accordingly, with VP-MXR01 fuel. Some people may think that we didnt dyno some heads that should have been tested, but we know that a lot of shops outsource the porting and claim they were the ones who put in the work. For instance, APE heads are ported by a guy named Spaz. APE does a valve job and assembles the head, but claim its an APE head. Lees Performance is another that does the same thing, using Vance & Hines to c&c port the head and sent back to Lees Performance for valve job and assembly. Paul Gass is another example. Carpenter does a lot of heads for shops, some tell the truth, some dont. One of the ones who tells the truth is Motorhead. He uses Carpenters heads most of the time.
Here is a list of the top ten (ported stock intake & exhaust, all hp were taken from an engine dyno, the following are rear wheel. Rear wheel hp rating was attained using a 13% reduction for drivetrain):
Ward-235
Sharkey-234
Carpenter-230
Vance & Hines Racing-229
Gann-229
Superbike Mike-221
Performance Porting(Jason)-220
C&W-220
Spaz-218
Wharthanu-216
We ran 5 heads with 1mm bigger intake and exhaust valves:
Ward-237
Sharkey-237
V&HR-235
Carpenter-235
Superbike Mike-224
Best Air Speed of top 5(in order):
V&HR
Sharkey
Ward
Gann
Carpenter
I'm sure that people have made more horsepower with different combinations, but we didn't touch the bottom end. We only changed the heads, used the same camshaft and set it at 105 intake, 107 exhaust. These were the results, you could probably change things a little and tweek out a little more horsepower. If you used one of the top 5, you would be within 5hp no matter which one you bought. We have decided, if Suzuki doesn't change the Hayabusa engine, by testing Ward and Sharkeys heads, we will redesign our porting and be number one again by next year.
Anonymous
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Dat be one teriffic post if it is what it claims to be.
It is no surprise to me that a no flowbench guy like Spaz is not near the top.
I would like to know what a good stock head does in this test configuration.
Congratulations for putting up real data from a Brake dynomometer instead of wishy washy Dyno Jet data.
I would also like to know how much variability there is if the same setup is tested several times in the same state.
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Very good info....not surprised in the least by results....The only other piece of info needed IMO is were any of the heads decked, and how much????
Nice post....refreshing.....Thanx
Dave
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WHO IS SHARKEY?????
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I wonder how the graphs looked thru out the rev range? and not just peak power> wish I had the resources to do this level of testing. Engine dyno the way to go.
great post
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Great data and I applaud your effort. I will only make one point: camshaft selection and power optimization depends very heavily upon the flow characteristics of the head which is why the auto industry relies so heavily upon the high-end software which is available. It's the only means of evaluating the countless combinations that must be considered.
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I have one question, how do you flow one of my heads if I never sold one to anyone on this site. The only people that have ANY of my heads are my close friends and repeat customers from the local area. IF this is who I think it might be than the head you are saying I ported is a stock head...I did your dad a favor by cleaning up the damage from shipping...There was no porting involved AT ALL......THats pretty sad that a stock head makes almost the same power as some of the porters out there.....You can tell now what you are really getting for your money. It is a very good post, just make sure you get your info correct before posting....................... I NEVER have sold any heads to anyone on this site.....I am curious to know why I am even on that list............
P.S. There are too many other variables in an engine combination to say who ports the best head......You also have a variation in compression, not to make a big deal out of that but there probably is 3 or 4 hp in that alone, if one head has a few more cc's of port volume it will take advantage of that increased compression where the lower compression motor it would hurt.......
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WHO IS SHARKEY?????
A guy in Indy that works with Robert Mason and others. From what I understand, a big proponent of low lift flow.
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He is from indy and does some awesome work!
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VERY good post, as was already stated. 8)
I know that Carpenter wants his cams set at 110/110, or higher. The 105/107 may not compliment his specific port design?
Thanks for the post. Add more info if/when you have time please.
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VERY good post, as was already stated. 8)
I know that Carpenter wants his cams set at 110/110, or higher. The 105/107 may not compliment his specific port design?
Thanks for the post. Add more info if/when you have time please.
YEA I WAS WONDER IF THEY EVEN NEW THEY WERE SETTING THEM UP WRONG??? :lol:
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VERY good post, as was already stated. 8)
I know that Carpenter wants his cams set at 110/110, or higher. The 105/107 may not compliment his specific port design?
Thanks for the post. Add more info if/when you have time please.
YEA I WAS WONDER IF THEY EVEN NEW THEY WERE SETTING THEM UP WRONG??? :lol:
I'd suggest neither are right or wrong as we dont know what the Carpenter setup is at this point nor do we know for sure if John Smith went any further in optimising the setup for just peak power or area under the curve etc etc... we know a little from the above information and thats about it at this stage...dont draw to many conclusions.
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With reference to the Ward head - GeorgeC has one and his bike liked the lower cam setting better than the higher ones...
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This is all good but remember one think most engine builders have there own cam specs. I have tried the cams U use for testing and lost hp. I am not saying they bad they just don't work well with my heads. Also too set up is everything. Piston to head, vavle to piston. Price of the heads? We have made 228hp on stock valved heads with 1397's on MRXO1 @13.3.1 comp
Also remember a guy named Ray Bellucci that stop using flow benchs. I used them only when port designs are changed. I also feel some of the big shops copy others head designs. True hand porting is a dieing art. all just my 2 cents Spaz
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Also remember a guy named Ray Bellucci that stop using flow benchs. I used them only when port designs are changed. I also feel some of the big shops copy others head designs. True hand porting is a dieing art. all just my 2 cents Spaz
There is some truth in that statement.
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I built two identical 1397s same pistons 13.1, cams pump gas etc ... one had my Spaz head on it and the other had a Ward head.The only differance one had a muzzypipe and one had a yosh pipe. The bike with the yosh pipe and my head made 216 the other made 188 the customer called Ward and asked what could be up. Told ward this was a street bike. Ward told him he needed his cams. .445 lift cams. I thouhgt WTF those aren't street cams plus is would not have made up that much hp's. His bike runs good but not where it should be. I am not knocking Ward just showing not everything seems as it apears. LOTS of varables.
I also found bored throttle body lose power on 1397's.
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Why not tell everyone who did this fine testing.
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Im still wondering how the hell my name is even on this list when I never did any head work for any one on this site...........
I can tell you this from my flow bench work, I have flow tested and dyno tested EVERY ones heads from Ward to V/H to Carpenter..... I can tell you why each one ports the way he ports and why some of them believe port speed is more important than port volume.
I would never say or put up a list of a one type motor combo and make some of these shops to be not good at what they do.... Any engine developer NOT AN ASSEMBLER will tell you that to make some ridiculous list of who makes the most power on one type of motor is plain stupid.....
Im pretty positive on who wrote the list and for you to come out with this list without even having ANY motorcycle engine developement under your belt is really a joke....
We always want to know who makes the most power, and I will ALWAYS say the same thing like any other professional would.................Lite the boards up and lets see the ET an MPH.............................................ENOUGH SAID>>>>>>>>>>>>>
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I've done a thousand heads...at least. You will never get one to do exactly what you want....all the time. A good post but I'm not worried. People can search for the Holy Grail of heads all they want. Remember this...if 1 person made the best of ANYTHING no one would make a comparable product.
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Mike,
Wow...I had no idea you have worked on that many. Thats your prob....you see if you just started on them in the last year or so you WOULD be an expert...and know everything...LOL
Dave
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Mike,
Wow...I had no idea you have worked on that many. Thats your prob....you see if you just started on them in the last year or so you WOULD be an expert...and know everything...LOL
Dave
:lol: Thanks Dave. I really think guys in the know would agree...there are basic shapes you conform to and that involves floor flattening, divider thinning etc. It's been the same forever in bike porting and I'd challenge anybody to disagree. Sure, more volume for application but depending on cams, timing etc, etc....... Christ it hasn't changed much in regard to shape. I've got some interesting stories especially from bracket guys.
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not tryin to fight here but i heard the busa is different then the oldschool bikes
they flow good to start with i was also told you cut them different then most ??? if i remember right??
and the man that told me that is on this list of head guys and not near the bottom
and in my opinion hes real good at what he does
but like i said im not tryin to fight here
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I also found bored throttle body lose power on 1397's.
How about a 1430?
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I really think guys in the know would agree...there are basic shapes you conform to and that involves floor flattening, divider thinning etc. It's been the same forever in bike porting and I'd challenge anybody to disagree. Sure, more volume for application but depending on cams, timing etc, etc....... Christ it hasn't changed much in regard to shape. I've got some interesting stories especially from bracket guys.
Mike, I highlighted a word you used only because it continues to come up in conversations with people who are paid serious money to to improve airflow and combustion efficiency. Other words include velocity, mixture quality and laminar/turbulent flow. I have had the opportunity to compare a number of the heads mentioned in the topic post and I would say for sake of conversation they can be divided into two schools: bulk CFM and velocity. I would place Ward in the CFM camp and Vance & Hines in the other; the small Ward head features minimum sectional areas that are 24% bigger than a stock valve Vance & Hines head. The head designed around velocity may or may not offer the same peak but it is likely to offer a broader power band and a better recovery to an abrupt change like, say, a shift in gears. :D
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not tryin to fight here but i heard the busa is different then the oldschool bikes
they flow good to start with i was also told you cut them different then most ??? if i remember right??
and the man that told me that is on this list of head guys and not near the bottom
and in my opinion hes real good at what he does
but like i said im not tryin to fight here
Well, the ports are certainly different than early GS, KZ or CB750's :lol: Downdraft intakes pretty much look the same in regard to basic shape. Divider length, opening shape etc can be different for sure but the basic shape remains. I'm not saying the busa port isn't different from other ports but it isn't that different. As for cutting it....I'm sure the person your talking about does thin the divider, increase bowl diameter a bit, work on the port floor especially at the seat etc. As DarkFalcon said, the difference in most ported heads is in regard to bulk flow vs velocity and like I said earlier if one person had the absolute best head for all purposes he/she would be the only one porting heads.
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Mike,
Wow...I had no idea you have worked on that many. Thats your prob....you see if you just started on them in the last year or so you WOULD be an expert...and know everything...LOL
Dave
OK...many not a thousand but enough to forget how many. :lol: :wink:
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One thing to think about is what Suzuki engineers had in mind when they designed the Busa head.
After all, they have access to the wet flow CFD and engine models and are fully capable of designing a port that cannot be improved upon by mere mortals.
IMO, the Busa head was designed for area under the torque curve and drivability without power spikes that would make the bike hard to ride.
When a porter goes to work..they are attempting to change those design criteria into something else.
Ports for peak horsepower are pretty simple high CFM deals.
A dyno comparision like this is biased towards maximum flow without drivability or durability considerations.
If we had dyno curves it would be apparent that each of these porters has optimized their work for some particular goal on the power curve.
A port that works well for drag racing might be a disaster for a high hp road race engine.
Ya pays yer money and takes yer chances :lol:
This has been a very good discussion IMO.
Now if you knowledgable ones would cough up a bit more data..we could chat more.
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Just for you Peach Butt. The Hayabusa induction system starting at the top of the throttle body and terminating at the back of the intake valve...........is eleven inches long and is steadily tapered to the minimum cross sectional area in each of the siamese ports. These are right at the short side turn before the bowl. The taper is important as is the minimum cross sectional area...........as the latter determines the maximum air speed reached in the port. The taper assists in creating velocity. The minimum cross sectional area, in addition to determining maximum port speed, plays a big role in determining the point of maximum torque. Stock engines feature MCSA's (minimum cross sectional areas) that are oval in shape and approximately .81 inches high and 1.04 inches wide........yielding an area of 1.43 sq inches ( .81*1.04*.85*2)
The MCSA in a Ward head measures 1.0 inch in height and 1.18 inches in width; the MCSA in a V&H head measures .88 inches in height and 1.08 inches in width. The calculated areas become 2.00 sq inches and 1.62 sq inches, respectively. A 1397 wants to breath 235 CFM at full throttle but because of various losses actually gets around 212 CFM into the engine............this will vary marginally by head design assuming a decent head. Flow at 28" depression. Once you know flow, then you can calculate velocity using the reduced expression Port Velocity= CFM*2.4/MCSA. Using the 212 CFM and the port areas of the two heads, you can get an idea of relative port speeds. Ward would be 254 ft/sec and and V&H would be 314 ft/sec..............speeds at 28" depression which convert into live engine speeds of 493 ft/sec and 609 ft/sec. Most designers shoot for port speeds of .55Mach to .60Mach; speeds beyond this can bring about choke and lots of bad things. To calculate Mach, simply divide by the speed of sound which in this case is taken to be 1116 ft/sec. Thus, the Ward head would be .44 Mach and the V&H head would be .55 Mach.....which is inherently better. Spaz put a jockey on a SWB and ran 162 something; on Wards website a lengthened bike using the same fuel is reported as running 163 something. You deicde.
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DF, looking at the Mach numbers you have calculated ,they have a fair bit to go before getting to choked conditions unless of course the velocities are mean :?:, therefore components are actually flowing a great deal more thru the orifice which will bring upon M1 local conditions.
We still need more info than posted than in the 1st post to "really" add alot more value to the info posted..that would be good to see.
ps cant ever remember the term "Peach Butt" in fluid dynamics classes..... must google that 1.
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Now that's some good info.
Same mph for both ported heads.
What mph would the stock head on the built engine do?
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DF, looking at the Mach numbers you have calculated ,they have a fair bit to go before getting to choked conditions unless of course the velocities are mean :?:, therefore components are actually flowing a great deal more thru the orifice which will bring upon M1 local conditions.
We still need more info than posted than in the 1st post to "really" add alot more value to the info posted..that would be good to see.
ps cant ever remember the term "Peach Butt" in fluid dynamics classes..... must google that 1.
Gazza, choke can happen at any speed but good heads will take up to .6 Mach.............but this would be a Superbike head. Ports don't actually go into sonic choke at .55 Mach - but at this point (approx.) we reach the trade off where the energy required to move the air through the port becomes higher than the power increase (cylinder filling) that comes from higher velocity which increases pumping losses.....like sucking on a small straw. Plus, the air and fuel start to separate. Drag racing heads, as noted, are biased to the high end and usually have velocities in the .5 to .55 range simply because of larger port sizes and the interest of peak power. The calculated speeds are a mean speed through the MCSA............actual speeds through the port are determined by mapping the entire port CSA using a pitot tube and converting pressure readings into velocities; so averages can hide a lot. By posting this stuff I am not trying to help or hurt any head porter but simply stimulate conversation and offer my perspectives. "Peach Butt" was for the benefit of Dakinebusa.
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Peach Butt...Why in hell did Dolphin come up with that?
Maybe he has issues with smooth skin?
Anyway, as you all know, the average steady flow numbers used to characterize ports are crude guidelines that sorta keep things within limits.
Real two phase pulsating folw in ports is as much an acoustic phenomena as it is a steady flow problem.
In a real running engine pressure waves are bouncing all over the place as the ports interact with the inlet and exhaust systems.
I dont really know how sophisticated the models that are available to auto engineers are.
From my CFD experience the pulsating flow in a port can be calculated pretty well with a small supercomputer and a flow code like Fluent.
A good CFD guy could then fake in the droplet flow and maybe some atomization criteria because the fuel really doesn't have much momentum.
Put this together with an engine power criteria and calculate a few hundred port shapes and understanding should follow.
All this points out the wilderness that porters work in..flow bench or not.
Smokey Yunick had the tech in the '80's to measuere port flow on a real head while the thing is motored on a dyno.
The company engineers surely have this capability but I doubt anyone outside of factory teams can do port work using this tool.
I consider top speed at the 1/4 or whatever to be a good indicator of average peak power.
A well geared bike is in the meat of the powerband during the whole run.
By energy balance...top speed should scale with the square of average peak power.
I still would like to know how a stock head would run on the 1397.
It should be pretty constipated,,,I want to know how much.
BTW...That is Dr. Daddy Peachbutt.
PhD in Fluid Mechanics in ChE, 1974.
What I have forgotten!
:lol: :lol: :lol:
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I still would like to know how a stock head would run on the 1397.
I can tell you it runs about 4-6mph less than a CNC ported head in the 1/4...
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THe best numbers that I have seen from a stock headed 1397 with mild cams around .400 lift and about 245 deg. with regular pump gas and an average aftermarket exhaust on my dyno was around 183-187 hp on SAE correction.............
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well if this post is true thats awsome cause SHARKEY just did my head lol thats great news....
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Wall...lessee
If a stock head 1397 will make 187 and a hot head one will make 215 rwhp.....
The square root of 215 over 187 is 1.07 or about 7% faster in the quarter..
So if the stock head won would run 148 the modde one would run 159...
Sound about right for simple math?
Nothing like boost.....
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Peach Butt...Why in hell did Dolphin come up with that?
Maybe he has issues with smooth skin?
BTW...That is Dr. Daddy Peachbutt.
PhD in Fluid Mechanics in ChE, 1974.
What I have forgotten!
:lol: :lol: :lol:
Ok, Ok, Ok. It will be Dr. Daddy Peachbutt. :D And the acoustic phenomena that you refer to is fascinating and underlies wave tuning. If you start something, I'll probably chip in.
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THe best numbers that I have seen from a stock headed 1397 with mild cams around .400 lift and about 245 deg. with regular pump gas and an average aftermarket exhaust on my dyno was around 183-187 hp on SAE correction.............
13.5 MTC's, HMF Bigbird, Big box mod, Mega 385's int and exh and i got 195/114...
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has anyone on this site tried a ported busa head done by star racing in ga.??????
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Realy good post I enjoyed reading and seeing the way they stacked up allthough not with the cams intended for each head
but still gives some idea what to expect from each shop.
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Cool stuff
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I dont like the fact that you have to run that big ass intake cam in a Ward head to make it work especaily on a 1397cc motor. One of the if not first hayabusa motors Bob Carpenter built was a stock piston oversized titanium valve head with a .440' intake cam. Still had a stock exhaust port. They claimed that it made 200hp but I see that Carpenter has changed his thought on that. Dark are you saying that the Ward head is 24% smaller than a V&H head?
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I dont like the fact that you have to run that big ass intake cam in a Ward head to make it work especaily on a 1397cc motor. One of the if not first hayabusa motors Bob Carpenter built was a stock piston oversized titanium valve head with a .440' intake cam. Still had a stock exhaust port. They claimed that it made 200hp but I see that Carpenter has changed his thought on that. Dark are you saying that the Ward head is 24% smaller than a V&H head?
The MCSA in a Ward head measures 1.0 inch in height and 1.18 inches in width; the MCSA in a V&H head measures .88 inches in height and 1.08 inches in width. The calculated areas become 2.00 sq inches and 1.62 sq inches, respectively.
Thomas, at the minimum cross sectional area, the Ward head has around 24% more area than an early production stock valve Vance & Hines head. And after developing my own models and reverse engineering some very expensive engine software programs, I can tell you that a major driver behind required intake camshaft lift is the port velocity at the MCSA. This is why it is not unusual, if not the rule, that heads with big ports require high lift intake camshafts to compensate for the slower port velocity. The only time big ports can be justified is when there is an exponential increase inflow. When you are dealing with 1397's, though, there is no need for extensive flow additions to the head as the engine only wants 223 CFM at 10800 RPM and/or 235 CFM at 11400 RPM. A stock head flows around 220 CFM to 225 CFM at 28" so you can see big increases in flow are not the order of the day. I should note that what the engine wants is a net figure after frictional losses and measured flow is a gross measure before frictional losses. Rather, attention should be directed to shape, velocity, pressure recovery, turbulence....lack thereof... and mixture quality. As an aside, I have noticed that Carpenter is not as enthusiastic about oversized valves as he once was and is moving towards smaller ports. I should qualify this last point as I have not substantiated it by examing any of his more recent heads.
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Interesting, I thought that the Ward heads were smaller port velocity heads that needed the larger cam to compensate for what it lacked in gross volume. I would assume they (Ward) would favor higher lobe centers also?
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When you are dealing with 1397's, though, there is no need for extensive flow additions to the head as the engine only wants 223 CFM at 10800 RPM and/or 235 CFM at 11400 RPM
In theory maybe but big ported heads seem to be the rule of the day to get a 1397 over 156mph in the 1/4...
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Thomas, just to give you an idea of how important MCSA is I developed a simple program to calculate intake valve lift based only on a target port velocity and the accompanying MCSA. From this lift was determined. The results are shown below and would suggest that I am pretty close..............though there is always room for improvement. I should qualify that the lifts indicated below assumes stock valves and throats and a max RPM of 10800.
Engine Size.......................................Lift..........................................................................................................................................
1300...........................................351 to .370...................................................................................................................................
1397...........................................377 to .398...................................................................................................................................
1430...........................................387 to .408....................................................................................................................................
1507...........................................410 to .433...................................................................................................................................
Should you need any additional information, please feel free to PM me.
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When you are dealing with 1397's, though, there is no need for extensive flow additions to the head as the engine only wants 223 CFM at 10800 RPM and/or 235 CFM at 11400 RPM
In theory maybe but big ported heads seem to be the rule of the day to get a 1397 over 156mph in the 1/4...
This is not theory in the clouds with no relationship to what happens on the track. And maybe big ports will get you 156..............but small ports will get you more. Depends upon what you want. A while back on another board there was a post about the fastest 1397's and five recognized bikes/engines were identified and they all had heads with smaller MCSA's; Spaz did one of the heads and, as I recall, the rest were done by Jason aka Fastheads. All five bikes were NA 1397's running oxy gas and had recorded speeds over 160 MPH in the 1/4 and all were running in the eights.....with two bikes on a stock WB. With big ports and higher lift cams you can probably get close to the same results, but why beat up the valve train?
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When you are dealing with 1397's, though, there is no need for extensive flow additions to the head as the engine only wants 223 CFM at 10800 RPM and/or 235 CFM at 11400 RPM
In theory maybe but big ported heads seem to be the rule of the day to get a 1397 over 156mph in the 1/4...
This is not theory in the clouds with no relationship to what happens on the track. And maybe big ports will get you 156..............but small ports will get you more. Depends upon what you want. A while back on another board there was a post about the fastest 1397's and five recognized bikes/engines were identified and they all had heads with smaller MCSA's; Spaz did one of the heads and, as I recall, the rest were done by Jason aka Fastheads. All five bikes were NA 1397's running oxy gas and had recorded speeds over 160 MPH in the 1/4 and all were running in the eights.....with two bikes on a stock WB. With big ports and higher lift cams you can probably get close to the same results, but why beat up the valve train?
All i know is a lower c/r 1397 with CNC Ward head 445/415 cams runs 6mph more consistently with same gearing as my 13.5 stock head 385/385...???...
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Gnd, we are not debating stock head versus ported head; I think we would agree upon that question. George's bike runs well and Rick Ward has a long record of accomplishments and his site features a lengthened 1397 running 162 or 163 something in the 1/4. My views on performance are simply that but I invest a fair amount of time in trying to understand why things work which allows to me to evaluate countless combinations before committing to something "hard". I could not find the post I referenced but dug up a post of a bike that has a Performance Porting head.......which incorporates small ports.
1. Motor only.
2. Brock's Performance
3. 57 3/8 inchs
4. 185 suited up.
5. VP MRX01
The bike went 8.91 @160. We are about 1000 ft above sea level and I thiink it was 65-70 degrees. The bikes hp is in the low 220's.
I don't have the time ticket on me but the rest of the numbers are something like this:
60 ft 1.50
330 ft 3.91
1/8th 5.86@130.00
1/4 8.91@160.6
Bryan those are real close except for the 1/8 speeds. When Sonny(THEFASTESTUNKNOWN) rode the bike the second time, his 1/8 speeds were 128 to 129 and he was picking up 32 in the back. Whenever he did a 1.5 anything, he was in the 8.9's.
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What is a good general rule a mph is =to hp? 235 on a engine dyno is worth about 220 on a rear wheel?
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general rule of thumb is a 13% loss through the drive train
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Dark,
I have done some more testing with some newer engines, and I agree with you on your figures to a point...
On the 05 gsxr 1000 the port volume was over 100cc's and the intake valve is 30mm
On the 04 zx10 the port volume was much lower at 87cc's and the valve size was 31mm
Both of these heads flowed very close but the zx10 was a bit better, I feel the gsxr head in cast form is a better head though.
The air speed on the 10 was much higher at .200-.250 lift
I think the power curve was more linear on the 1000 where the zx10 was a bit peakier.....
I am finishing up a zx 10 head and trying some new things on this one, I will let you know how I make out and what I did to help you out with your data........
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I can't see why anyone would want to open the ports up on the busa head, but then i don't build drag engines just circuit ones.
My opinion is the stock inlet port is far too big. Those with flow benches and pitot tubes will know why. The critical thing to be looking at on all these engines is port velocity and velocity profile through the port. Even on my 1580cc motors i reshape the port and run slightly less than stock intake port cc, on a 1397 or 1300 i am for much less than stock cc. But then like i said, my customers need repeated punch from as low as 4500rpm.
On 1000cc and especially 600cc motors, the small ports with correct velocity make huge mid and especially peak power gains. Different horses for different courses though i guess!
Oh and yes, bored throttle bodies cost power on 1400cc motors. Last time i tried it 1.5bhp gain for last 1000rpm but 3-4 loss everywhere else.
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Some interesting reading for sure so thought I'd bring it back to the top for anyone's interest. I'm in the process of doing a 1441 gen2 motor and Sharky is going to do my head. Last busa went 160 in 1/4 at 706 total wieght with 209hp on Ryan Schnitzs dyno= not happy. Cant wait to see what this one can do with a master working on the head, no offense Bob( Mason) :lol:. He did my last head and the bike hauled. And that was with 12:1 wiescos. Bob will be helping with this project too. He's my goodluck charm :D :thumb:
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Wow... all this head talk is way over my...... head. :hys: I just wish I could afford a sharkey head!
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Who is sharkey? Seems like he does quality head porting according to this particular review. I've also heard rick ward does some serious good cylinder head work
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Bob Carpenter does pretty good work too. :D
Fred
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Who is sharkey? Seems like he does quality head porting according to this particular review. I've also heard rick ward does some serious good cylinder head work
Why not settle for the best - Ward. They are CNC heads. One point above the Sharkey.
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Who is sharkey? Seems like he does quality head porting according to this particular review. I've also heard rick ward does some serious good cylinder head work
Why not settle for the best - Ward. They are CNC heads. One point above the Sharkey.
And what does that 1 point cost Cookie? I know what I was quoted and its no where near a Carpenter head and I have no clue what a ward head would run.
I've already received pms on how to contact Sharkey and I will give that info after receiving permission from him when I talk to him. Cant wait to get this going :thumb:
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Who is sharkey? Seems like he does quality head porting according to this particular review. I've also heard rick ward does some serious good cylinder head work
Why not settle for the best - Ward. They are CNC heads. One point above the Sharkey.
And what does that 1 point cost Cookie? I know what I was quoted and its no where near a Carpenter head and I have no clue what a ward head would run.
I've already received pms on how to contact Sharkey and I will give that info after receiving permission from him when I talk to him. Cant wait to get this going :thumb:
Sounds like you have a nice plan in the make. In the past I know the shop gave me a cost of $2500 for the Rick Ward head and cam package......Motorhead told me he uses Carpenter and he does good work and then lets not forget about the good things we have all heard about Rick Stetson
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what does that 1 point cost Cookie?
Ask Johnsmithbusa. Maybe he can tell you.
First off, let me say this, my dad would be furious and fire me if he knew i was posting this. This is what everybody would like to know about a ported Hayabusa head. We have spent a lot of time and money on the engine dyno to find out. We built a 1397 engine. I wont tell you what pistons were in it, but i will tell you that all motors were all 14.7-15:1 compression ratio when assembled. We left this engine on the dyno at all times and only changed the heads. We had 4 guys from the shop to purchase heads from people we felt were the most competitive. That way we knew we would get a "run of the mill" head, not one prepped special for us. We flowed every head from .100 to .450 lift that we purchased. Stock valves were used, and the springs and retainers were that of porters choice. We used a set of bored throttle bodies, our 385 lift cams (intake and exhaust) because some heads were only set up for this size camshaft. The cams were all set at 105 intake, 107 exhaust. We used the stock rods and crankshaft with counter balancer. We used 2003 ignition system, a sidewinder exhaust (can?t tell you which one). The dyno room was climate controlled (72-74 degrees Fahrenheit) and the motors were mapped accordingly, with VP-MXR01 fuel. Some people may think that we didnt dyno some heads that should have been tested, but we know that a lot of shops outsource the porting and claim they were the ones who put in the work. For instance, APE heads are ported by a guy named Spaz. APE does a valve job and assembles the head, but claim its an APE head. Lees Performance is another that does the same thing, using Vance & Hines to c&c port the head and sent back to Lees Performance for valve job and assembly. Paul Gass is another example. Carpenter does a lot of heads for shops, some tell the truth, some dont. One of the ones who tells the truth is Motorhead. He uses Carpenters heads most of the time.
Here is a list of the top ten (ported stock intake & exhaust, all hp were taken from an engine dyno, the following are rear wheel. Rear wheel hp rating was attained using a 13% reduction for drivetrain):
Ward-235
Sharkey-234
Carpenter-230
Vance & Hines Racing-229
Gann-229
Superbike Mike-221
Performance Porting(Jason)-220
C&W-220
Spaz-218
Wharthanu-216
We ran 5 heads with 1mm bigger intake and exhaust valves:
Ward-237
Sharkey-237
V&HR-235
Carpenter-235
Superbike Mike-224
Best Air Speed of top 5(in order):
V&HR
Sharkey
Ward
Gann
Carpenter
I'm sure that people have made more horsepower with different combinations, but we didn't touch the bottom end. We only changed the heads, used the same camshaft and set it at 105 intake, 107 exhaust. These were the results, you could probably change things a little and tweek out a little more horsepower. If you used one of the top 5, you would be within 5hp no matter which one you bought. We have decided, if Suzuki doesn't change the Hayabusa engine, by testing Ward and Sharkeys heads, we will redesign our porting and be number one again by next year.
Anonymous
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Bottom line is Bob Carpenter has more heads out there then anyone and makes the most power..trust me!!!...The fastest all motor top speed bikes and quickest in the 1/4 mile use Bobs heads. Thats the whole truth and nothing but the truth.. i don't care what you tested.. NEXT SUBJECT !!
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The highest peak power number does not always equal the best head.
The fact that the same cams were degreed in at the same place for every head makes this test even more irrelevant.
Different port designs like different cam profiles and different center lines.
This so called test means nothing unless you can run your motor at the exact RPM of peak power all the time.
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Does bringing up all this discussion mean that no new development during past 3-4 years from any of the companies ? Surely many companies have now acquired pitot tubes and have measured the flow on the port surface making improvements to design ? New better entrants have entered the porting market ?
Who are the top names now in drag racing and LSR bikes ? (and what kind of contigency programs etc they are running to understand the sponsoring angle for top teams.)
Btw - measured driveline losses for stock bikes seems mostly to run around 9-10%, highly depending on rpm and wheel speed.
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Just interesting reading thats all. Nothing more nothing less.
However, I have raced guys with Carpenter heads and same day same track beat them with a 500.00 garage port job. And all 3 had je pistons while I ran 12:1 wiescos so fact is Carpenter probably has the most heads out there but they aint always the fastest. Rider wieght was almost identical and all 3 other bikes ran sliders and a 6in stretch while I was on a 3 in stretch. 2 of these guys are from indy and Bob Mason can chime in if he wants and tell you these were properly set-up bikes and motors so thats no reason why they didnt run any better than mine. 1 I beat by 1.5 tenths and the other was whithin hundreths but still beat him and had faster mph.Less compression, less camshaft and no where near the heads they had. One dynoed 234hp and the other 227? I think on the latter,real close anyway. I dynoed 209/ Explain that 1 cause it confuses the crap out of me.
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All im saying is the 3 fastest top speed bike in the world that have records have his heads, and i know for a fact the 2 quickest and fastest all motor busa regardless of wheelbase in the 1/4 has bobs head.. I know the times so don't ask.. If you wanna know the top speeds they are 245 on motor, 238 on motor and 235 on motor 3 different bikes... Not saying anything bad about anyone else, but Bobs are the fastest, not saying the most on dyno that don't matter.. Btw just did a 3 mil 1000 209hp
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All im saying is the 3 fastest top speed bike in the world that have records have his heads, and i know for a fact the 2 quickest and fastest all motor busa regardless of wheelbase in the 1/4 has bobs head.. I know the times so don't ask.. If you wanna know the top speeds they are 245 on motor, 238 on motor and 235 on motor 3 different bikes... Not saying anything bad about anyone else, but Bobs are the fastest, not saying the most on dyno that don't matter.. Btw just did a 3 mil 1000 209hp
Yeah so what are the times??
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All im saying is the 3 fastest top speed bike in the world that have records have his heads, and i know for a fact the 2 quickest and fastest all motor busa regardless of wheelbase in the 1/4 has bobs head.. I know the times so don't ask.. If you wanna know the top speeds they are 245 on motor, 238 on motor and 235 on motor 3 different bikes... Not saying anything bad about anyone else, but Bobs are the fastest, not saying the most on dyno that don't matter.. Btw just did a 3 mil 1000 209hp
Yeah so what are the times??
I gave you the top speed records , now the 1/4 times i can't say... I would be letting people know what the quickest and fastest grudge bike goes, now why would i do that!! trust me its the fastest and everybody knows it is...
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Bob just built the most Hp Rocket out there all motor 240 hp won the dyno shootout at daytona for all motor
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Bob built my motor at the end of the season 1397 13:1 CP pistons 425/425 cams full Muzzy I have not had it to the track yet, on the dyno by my house when I got it mapped 209hp 113fpt Now the guy I use his dyno is very conseritive , My Vmax with just stacks and full system and flatslides made 131hp on one dyno and that same day made 124hp on his
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Just interesting reading thats all. Nothing more nothing less.
However, I have raced guys with Carpenter heads and same day same track beat them with a 500.00 garage port job. And all 3 had je pistons while I ran 12:1 wiescos so fact is Carpenter probably has the most heads out there but they aint always the fastest. Rider wieght was almost identical and all 3 other bikes ran sliders and a 6in stretch while I was on a 3 in stretch. 2 of these guys are from indy and Bob Mason can chime in if he wants and tell you these were properly set-up bikes and motors so thats no reason why they didnt run any better than mine. 1 I beat by 1.5 tenths and the other was whithin hundreths but still beat him and had faster mph.Less compression, less camshaft and no where near the heads they had. One dynoed 234hp and the other 227? I think on the latter,real close anyway. I dynoed 209/ Explain that 1 cause it confuses the crap out of me.
Sometimes it's not the bike it is the rider. :thumb:
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:lol: :lol:
Yeah, I know this. Fact is, I think they are both better riders and more experienced for sure as they are veteran racers and race for real. Im a test and tune guy and like to go to 1or 2 track days a year. I'm a good rider but not excellent. 3in stretch i would get in the 1.45 60ft range. It wasnt the rider in this case, trust me on that!
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Just interesting reading thats all. Nothing more nothing less.
However, I have raced guys with Carpenter heads and same day same track beat them with a 500.00 garage port job. And all 3 had je pistons while I ran 12:1 wiescos so fact is Carpenter probably has the most heads out there but they aint always the fastest. Rider wieght was almost identical and all 3 other bikes ran sliders and a 6in stretch while I was on a 3 in stretch. 2 of these guys are from indy and Bob Mason can chime in if he wants and tell you these were properly set-up bikes and motors so thats no reason why they didnt run any better than mine. 1 I beat by 1.5 tenths and the other was whithin hundreths but still beat him and had faster mph.Less compression, less camshaft and no where near the heads they had. One dynoed 234hp and the other 227? I think on the latter,real close anyway. I dynoed 209/ Explain that 1 cause it confuses the crap out of me.
I would say the only way to solve that is for you to ride one of those bikes and see how they go.
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All im saying is the 3 fastest top speed bike in the world that have records have his heads, and i know for a fact the 2 quickest and fastest all motor busa regardless of wheelbase in the 1/4 has bobs head.. I know the times so don't ask.. If you wanna know the top speeds they are 245 on motor, 238 on motor and 235 on motor 3 different bikes... Not saying anything bad about anyone else, but Bobs are the fastest, not saying the most on dyno that don't matter.. Btw just did a 3 mil 1000 209hp
I'd put one of my CNC heads up against anyone's head. On the dyno, drag strip, or LSR. Same engine, only a head swap.
Bring it on.
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All im saying is the 3 fastest top speed bike in the world that have records have his heads, and i know for a fact the 2 quickest and fastest all motor busa regardless of wheelbase in the 1/4 has bobs head.. I know the times so don't ask.. If you wanna know the top speeds they are 245 on motor, 238 on motor and 235 on motor 3 different bikes... Not saying anything bad about anyone else, but Bobs are the fastest, not saying the most on dyno that don't matter.. Btw just did a 3 mil 1000 209hp
I'd put one of my CNC heads up against anyone's head. On the dyno, drag strip, or LSR. Same engine, only a head swap.
Bring it on.
:thumb: :thumb: :thumb:
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All this talk about heads i happened to have worked at one of these places tested. Im gonna say a few things and be done, any one of those heads tested could haul butt on the track on any given day it is the COMBINATIONthat makes the bike fly you can go buy the best head tested here and not use the combination with that head and get body slammed and yo lips pulled off at the track seen it happen a million times and yes its funny to everyone except the guy who spent his hard earned money on that head :hys:. But on to what the combination includes #1 piston size(what bore was used when flowing that particular head 81mm thru 87mm) and plz ask cause you might not be using that bore size #2 Cam size(if they flowed the head with a 445 or 425 cam) plz ask you may be using a smaller cam and again wasting your hard earned money on a head that you will never see the full potential.#3 Air speed (aka) velocity plays a big role on how the cylinder is filled you want a full cylinder which never happens but close to full as possible :lol: #4 cam timing plays a big role as stated before and you will have to play around which means countless hours on the dyno trying to find the right numbers which works with your head. No wonder some people like to keep their numbers a secret cause it wasnt free to find what worked with a certain combo. There are so many other factors i could talk to everyone went to sleep and woke again like class high school and i would be still going about this :hys: but remember its YOUR money ask questions all of these if u wanna and if they wanna get bitchy tell them hey u want my money or not, its a recession i wanna spend my hard earned money right the 1st time not 4 heads later to find what worked. See Yall boyz i got to go shuck some corn me hungry!!! Xtreme!
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When it comes to ported heads it all comes down to the combination. Compare apples to apples guys.
P.S. There's a guy in Iowa that ports heads. He has done them for people all over the world. and when it comes to the drag strip..........they fly for small hand ported heads!
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I would be up to compare your stuff to mine......not getting into a pissing match by now means....just curious to see what we got compared to what you got....now there has to be some info on the build though....like engine displacement, compression, cams....this way you can port to that combo....would be very interesting to see, im sure it would be very close....no one is going to make 10-15hp more than the next guy....and we can keep the port info to ourselves....so no one has to worry.....let me know about it........
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All this talk about heads i happened to have worked at one of these places tested. Im gonna say a few things and be done, any one of those heads tested could haul butt on the track on any given day it is the COMBINATIONthat makes the bike fly you can go buy the best head tested here and not use the combination with that head and get body slammed and yo lips pulled off at the track seen it happen a million times and yes its funny to everyone except the guy who spent his hard earned money on that head :hys:. But on to what the combination includes #1 piston size(what bore was used when flowing that particular head 81mm thru 87mm) and plz ask cause you might not be using that bore size #2 Cam size(if they flowed the head with a 445 or 425 cam) plz ask you may be using a smaller cam and again wasting your hard earned money on a head that you will never see the full potential.#3 Air speed (aka) velocity plays a big role on how the cylinder is filled you want a full cylinder which never happens but close to full as possible :lol: #4 cam timing plays a big role as stated before and you will have to play around which means countless hours on the dyno trying to find the right numbers which works with your head. No wonder some people like to keep their numbers a secret cause it wasnt free to find what worked with a certain combo. There are so many other factors i could talk to everyone went to sleep and woke again like class high school and i would be still going about this :hys: but remember its YOUR money ask questions all of these if u wanna and if they wanna get bitchy tell them hey u want my money or not, its a recession i wanna spend my hard earned money right the 1st time not 4 heads later to find what worked. See Yall boyz i got to go shuck some corn me hungry!!! Xtreme!
:thumb: :thumb: :thumb:
[/quote]I would be up to compare your stuff to mine......not getting into a pissing match by now means....just curious to see what we got compared to what you got....now there has to be some info on the build though....like engine displacement, compression, cams....this way you can port to that combo....would be very interesting to see, im sure it would be very close....no one is going to make 10-15hp more than the next guy....and we can keep the port info to ourselves....so no one has to worry.....let me know about it........
I would be willing to be an unsolicited participtant in this comparison. I would then take the best combo down to my favorite "road course" and recieve and distribute ''donations" from some unhappy customers from the top of the list and split the donations with the porter. LMK :hys: