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Author Topic: Car vs Bike - Cornering  (Read 11710 times)

Offline mach1mike

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Car vs Bike - Cornering
« on: November 16, 2006, 03:18:43 PM »
I've been led to believe that a car will beat a bike on a road course, providing both driver and rider are top riders and drivers and the vehicles are the best at that task. I wonder about track lap times, like at Laguna where you could compare Moto GP times with GP or Indy car times? I know from personal experience that I have been at both ends of the spectrum in racing cars on a road course. I can beat some superior drivers and cars by speed on the straights, and have been taken to the cleaners by a VW GTI once in the mountains. I didn't know the road but it was a combination of high speed sweepers and tight smooth turns. I had to maintain a degree of reserve incase of road hazards which could be painful if not fatal to me, where he might just slide a bit and say oops. Then again maybe he was an expert driver and knew the road well.

Offline dakinebusa

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Re: Car vs Bike - Cornering
« Reply #1 on: November 16, 2006, 03:42:04 PM »
Car tires put down a much bigger contct patch than a bike and there are four of them.
Cars can generate more lateral gee's.
Add aero effects to that and.....

Offline Quijinn

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Re: Car vs Bike - Cornering
« Reply #2 on: November 16, 2006, 05:21:37 PM »
I was just looking this up not long ago. F1 cars are the fastert vehicals in the world when it comes to road courses, nothing can compare.
I cant remeber the track sorry, my brain is old. The MotoGP bike ran something like 1.52 average lap time and the F1, ran around a 1.20 lap time, both had pro drivers. The thing is the F1 car has to be set up different for each track depending on straight aways and the type of curves. The tighter the course the more down force, this allows the to take a curve with amazing G force's. This is an amazing advantage to the cars, but the crews have to know the track well.



However the MotoGp bike will pretty much hand any other type of car its ass, and production car to production bike the 1k series will pretty much hand any car its ass. There might be a few cars produced that will beat a stock 1k, but there few and expensive.
Hi my name is Mark and I am a Bikeaholic.     Be carefull how fast you race through life, the finish line is death, and the trophy is a headstone.  Our perspective is how we judge our lives, to judge others we need a little change in our perspective.

Offline mach1mike

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Re: Car vs Bike - Cornering
« Reply #3 on: November 16, 2006, 08:42:43 PM »
Thanks, thats kinda what I figured. Is an Indy car set up for road course the same as a GP car? Gotta tell two short stories. There is a ridgetop road here in the SF Bay area, highway 35, which is famous among motorcyclists, everything from wannabe racers  having a club doing corner videos, Harley cruisers, fast guy club time trials to meet criteria to join up etc. Kinda like the Dragon for reputation. As many squids get killed there as in the Marin County Sundy Ride used to claim. Add to that Alices Restaurant and a large parking lot across the street to meet and pose on Sunday and you get the picture. I was riding  with my club, mostly Harleys,  one day, minding our own business tooling along when one of the guys riding at the rear with another group passed all of us on a curve then started swerving back and forth in front of us, I assumed he was heating up his tires. and he had slowed down to our speed, about 55 or so. He was on a yellow duc with all kinds of sponsor stickers all over it, some body work taken off and old scuffed up one piece leathers on with ground off knee pucks. I could see all this cause I was riding in front as road captain, next to the President. He looked at me (The Pres) with disgust in his eye and pointed and said "sic em" giving me permission to break formation and chase this guy. There wasn't any other traffic around as it was pretty early so I figured wtf, all the guy can do is leave me in the dust. I don't think he had an idea there was a sport bike in the front. I jumped up to about a foot off his rear wheel and waited. He saw me and took off. I stayed right on him through a few corners, riding to about 90% of my ability but holding back on the straights. Finally I figured I'd gas it on the next straight and pass him. I did and started pulling away through the next few corners and straights, slowed down and let him catch me and pass me, then crowded him again. Then I noticed him going wide coming out of a corner, crossing the line, wobbling a bit on entry and brake light flickering when it shouldn't. I realized then that he was over his head, no matter the bike and how he presented himself, and he was going to crash sooner or later, so I backed off and rejoined my group, feeling kind of uneasy and bad about the whole deal. That kind of unsavory experience is what has led to my name tag on my club vest "Mach1Mike" , well , that and some other stuff that impresses easily impressed Harley riders.  The club voted the name and I was stuck with it. The first one they came up with without telling me was "100MPH Mike" I refused to sew it on for obvious reasons. (Imagine trying to talk the man out of a speeding ticket?)

On the other hand, once coming down from 35 on 84 to Woodside on a nice but much tighter road , tooling along about 45 minding my own business, all alone early again, some guy passed me on an old ancient looking BMW with small saddlebags on it, no windshield, sitting up straight like he was at attention, with an old bomber jacket and half helmet on, looked like some old time bike ad. He passed me smooth as silk and naturally I chased after him, again wondering wtf? He steadily pulled away (No straightawys here) no brakes, sitting up like in church. Who knows who he was or where he has been?

Point being, I don't usually ride with other sportbikes cause there is always someone who will go over his head, or I will, can't control myself that well.

Offline Quijinn

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Re: Car vs Bike - Cornering
« Reply #4 on: November 16, 2006, 09:02:44 PM »
Crew I ride with always stress dont push it, stay back and ride at your own speed. I am useually one of the last guys in the group, like to keep a eye on ppl I dont know, plus its alot more fun to put space between me and the group and catch up  :twisted:

My friends are cool, they never best balls about how fast someone is, we dont get paid so no need to see someone wrapped around a tree, or a pole.
Hi my name is Mark and I am a Bikeaholic.     Be carefull how fast you race through life, the finish line is death, and the trophy is a headstone.  Our perspective is how we judge our lives, to judge others we need a little change in our perspective.

Offline COLDSTONE1300

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Re: Car vs Bike - Cornering
« Reply #5 on: November 16, 2006, 10:12:51 PM »
As of late i've seen alot of comparo's of elite street cars against today's bikes on a road course. Most of the tests the Bikes don't just win, they obliterate the cars. In all cases the bikes and cars had pro drivers. Fastbikes did it twice with the last test having a '03 Crescent tuned gixxer besting a Radical road car. Same test had a stock 1k beating a Lambo, Porsche turbo and BMW quite well. Most recent example was in Road & Track ( a car mag so no room for bias). Featured rides was a near 600awhp Skyline with hoosier slicks and pro driver against chandler on a couple of ninja's. One was a 636 on street tires, the other his tuned '04 Zx-10 on stickier rubber. Even though the all wheel drive skyline on slicks braked later and pulled plenty of G's, not only did the Zx-10 beat the car by 5 seconds, but the 636 got it by 1 second. Both bikes are now replaced by faster models. Only times i seen anything favoring the cars has been pretty weak. T.W.O did a recent run with autocar with a porsche 911 turbo against a cbr 1k. Rider however wadded a previous blade and even with a hurt shoulder and "Holding back" because he didn't want to junk another bike, still managed to say within a second of the porsche's best lap. 5th gear did a test with a car similar to that of the Radical against a '05 Gixxer 1k. Bike wasn't allowed to adjust the suspension but, despite powersliding and wheelieing all over the place, still managed to stay within a second of this open cockpit gt style car's best times.

Give it that these bikes beat or can easily beat cars without hardly any tweaks, there really isn't no comparison anymore. Today's streetbikes in stock trim are gonna be able to mimic the track bred peers alot better then cars. Not to mention 600cc and 1000cc Sportbikes update as frequently as Personal desktop computers with something faster out every 7-9 months (with the japanese HOLDING BACK mind you). What the hell is gonna keep up with that? It does take a good rider to exploit a bike's abilities in the twisties. However while Cars may be easier to drive fast in the twisties it's only to a point before that driver better know damn well how to deal with the lil surprises a car can give when pushed too hard. Besides on the street, coming up on a car is a easy pass for the bike whereas the sportscar driver in pursuit is most likely gonna back off. Not to mention when confined to one lane, a bike has more room to play with then a cage. Improvement in brakes and chassis for bikes are nullifying the late braking advantage cars used to have as well. With ABS starting to trickle into bikes now, look for the bike advantage to grow even more.


Offline dakinebusa

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Re: Car vs Bike - Cornering
« Reply #6 on: November 17, 2006, 08:20:04 AM »
Lap records from Laguna Seca

Formula 1 ......1:06.309
Corvette C6r...1:20.719
MotoGP..........1:23.333
Stock VW GTI...1:59

When a vehicle can generate several g's of downforce it makes a big difference.

Offline devils advocate

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Re: Car vs Bike - Cornering
« Reply #7 on: November 18, 2006, 07:20:50 PM »
there was an article a couple years back in a bike mag (?) an 01/02 1K gixxer took GM's finest to school. :twisted:. mind you this was on a track............on an unknown twisty back road , i would figure the car.
letters to the editor for the next month or two was brutal , but very funny.
the bus is not running , gixxer will be soon . and yes buy the ultra , you've got no one to blame but yourself.

Offline COLDSTONE1300

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Re: Car vs Bike - Cornering
« Reply #8 on: November 19, 2006, 03:10:19 AM »
there was an article a couple years back in a bike mag (?) an 01/02 1K gixxer took GM's finest to school. :twisted:. mind you this was on a track............on an unknown twisty back road , i would figure the car.

Actually (providing the rider knows the road as well as the car driver) the street favors the bike better. Both are confined to one lane and the bike has alot more room to play with then the car. Bikes can achieve some damn good speeds in one lane and have room for a little back end sliding. Start slipping around in a cage without much room and God help you.  :shock:

There was vid on here awhile back of that purple Supercharged vette seen in fulltilts vids chasing a r1 in the curves. They weren't racing really (both rider and car driver wasn't going all out till the straightaway at the end) just doing a brisk run. Yet twice in the vid the vette gets stuck behind traffic the r1 easily zipped by. R1 slowed and waited for the vette both times.


Offline COLDSTONE1300

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Re: Car vs Bike - Cornering
« Reply #9 on: November 19, 2006, 03:20:00 AM »
Heres that letter page from that article mentioned. the latter letters praise the bike but it's the first one that slams it. Read closely and you'll see the dork (who claims to be an engineer) didn't even read the article completely. He gets schooled though.  :ll:

Pay attention to how many G's both vehicals were said to pull.  :shock:




However i would LOVE to see a updated sequel to that test with the new Corvette Z06 against the new 2k7 GSXR 1000. Just to see the differences made to both over the years let along how they stand now.
« Last Edit: November 19, 2006, 03:22:26 AM by COLDSTONE1300 »

Offline devils advocate

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Re: Car vs Bike - Cornering
« Reply #10 on: November 19, 2006, 07:53:04 AM »
true about the "if the driver knows the road" part. if not might be a different story (on an unknown road)
yeah that is the article i was talking about. he came up with every excuse under the sun.............i think those guys must be the ones who still try to race turbobikes with their completely stock street cars. :twisted:
didn't the arguing go on for months , sweet article anyway.
« Last Edit: November 19, 2006, 07:58:42 AM by devils advocate »
the bus is not running , gixxer will be soon . and yes buy the ultra , you've got no one to blame but yourself.

Offline Kirk

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Re: Car vs Bike - Cornering
« Reply #11 on: November 21, 2006, 03:11:35 AM »
Actually, that's not the article. That's a page (from the June 2002 issue) of letters written to the magazine about the article. The article itself was published in the April 2002 issue.
-Kirk

Offline devils advocate

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Re: Car vs Bike - Cornering
« Reply #12 on: November 21, 2006, 09:08:49 PM »
can somebody post the article? or link to?  correct , that is the "letters to the editor" page i mentioned , about the article.
the bus is not running , gixxer will be soon . and yes buy the ultra , you've got no one to blame but yourself.

Offline COLDSTONE1300

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Re: Car vs Bike - Cornering
« Reply #13 on: November 22, 2006, 07:44:52 PM »
Here ya goezzz (Happy thanksgiving! We're serving "Car guy's ego")! :lol: Pay close attention to the datalogging showing the bike Not only cornering faster then the vette, but braking later:D










Offline Kirk

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Re: Car vs Bike - Cornering
« Reply #14 on: November 23, 2006, 11:38:12 PM »
...without so much as a decent shock on the bike.  :lol:
-Kirk

Offline Quijinn

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Re: Car vs Bike - Cornering
« Reply #15 on: November 26, 2006, 04:58:30 PM »
 :moped: :moped: :moped: :zzz: :zzz: :zzz:  hope there are not straight aways  :lol:
Hi my name is Mark and I am a Bikeaholic.     Be carefull how fast you race through life, the finish line is death, and the trophy is a headstone.  Our perspective is how we judge our lives, to judge others we need a little change in our perspective.

Offline Quijinn

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Re: Car vs Bike - Cornering
« Reply #16 on: November 26, 2006, 05:35:03 PM »
Hi my name is Mark and I am a Bikeaholic.     Be carefull how fast you race through life, the finish line is death, and the trophy is a headstone.  Our perspective is how we judge our lives, to judge others we need a little change in our perspective.

Offline Racer86

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Re: Car vs Bike - Cornering
« Reply #17 on: April 08, 2007, 07:08:15 PM »
Laguna Seca record is currently held by a Champ car (indy) 1:03 something, set about 2 months back. It broke the record that the Toyota F1 car turned at the vintage race at Laguna.  I turned a 1:27.8 in a HayaBusa powered Radical sports racer ,which is on a par with super bike lap times. The Radical will corner at over 2.2 G's with ground effects, splitters, undertrays, and gurney lips. But at 1100 lbs with Hayabusa power, it will not pull like a bike down the straights. so sports racers in the corners,, no contest with a bike, the car wins. however, it will not accelerate  with the bike down a straight. The Radical will also out stop a bike. ( 4 slicks vs 2)
 I am a driver coach at Ferrari track days and have driven some very expensive and fast Ferrari's, ( 430F1, F40, 333SP) but not one of them is a match for a 1k suzuk or a Radical,,, not even close.

Offline COLDSTONE1300

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Re: Car vs Bike - Cornering
« Reply #18 on: April 30, 2007, 04:34:16 AM »
Fastbikes did a test with EVO magazine with a radical and pro driver against a k3 crescent tuned GSXR 1k. Had a stock 1k too. Think the stocker was about 4 seconds behind and the tuned 1k, with the rider holding back, beat the radical by 2 tenths. Radicals best time was 1min 5.6sec and the tuned 1k was 1min 5.4sec.

That was a 2k3 gixxer 1k though. K6 in tuned form is much more lethal and god only knows what the latest version will be like after tuning.
« Last Edit: April 30, 2007, 04:36:33 AM by COLDSTONE1300 »

Offline Racer86

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Re: Car vs Bike - Cornering
« Reply #19 on: April 30, 2007, 09:09:44 AM »
sounds about right in my experience. But, if you get to modifiy the GSXR, I get to hot rod my stock Radical Hayabusa. I turned the 1:27.9 at  Laguna Seca with a stock busa engine in the Radical, except for the 2 intake cam deal  :lol:

Offline COLDSTONE1300

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Re: Car vs Bike - Cornering
« Reply #20 on: May 01, 2007, 09:06:04 PM »
Still might not do you much good. The "V-8" busa engined radicals are a trip. Bit more controllable then the turbo'd versions i believe?

Think the outright AMA record is 1:24 buy troy's ducati so your times are in their relm. tuning should make things even better though consistancy with added power and on what tires is of question. The crescent was on street rubber too in that mentioned magazine match and the bike was making 180bhp. The Radical used was the SR3 tracksport btw. 252bhp is a BIG upgrade from stock busa output.

Still racing against a tuned race bike made street legal is a hell of a feat. With the way these bikes are evolving so much every 9 months with more and more motogp influence, whatever happened on the track could be different in a few months.  Pretty much impossible to race against that kind of evolution. :lol:

It'd be a trip to see the manufacturers start supercharging 600's. 170 linear hp and all the cornering ability of a 600. Would be a Big step towards motogp for the street.  :lol:
« Last Edit: May 01, 2007, 09:20:27 PM by COLDSTONE1300 »