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Author Topic: 180 rear tire  (Read 27621 times)

Offline Kat_man

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Re: 180 rear tire
« Reply #25 on: October 11, 2007, 01:27:44 PM »

the factories dont give a squat about what a bunch of bonehead straightliners


Excuse me Bob?  Is this how you try to make new friends?


PETE what the hell do you ride?     a ZZR12 is like ten year old technology for a sports touring bike!  the wieght of a busa with the power of a 600 ( an older 01 600) NO offense but ,..   go back and read eyr own post yer advising all these guys based on  flawed experience and obvious illconcieved  bias,...


Bobby, you are misinformed about the ZZR, while it's not a Busa, it'll absolutely destroy a 600.

Thanks for your insight, but some actual information would be nice rather than tossing around name calling and insults.

And FYI, Pete rides a Busa
« Last Edit: October 11, 2007, 01:31:40 PM by Kat_man »

Offline CADDYWOMPUS

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Re: 180 rear tire
« Reply #26 on: October 14, 2007, 05:52:13 PM »

the factories dont give a squat about what a bunch of bonehead straightliners


Excuse me Bob?  Is this how you try to make new friends?


PETE what the hell do you ride?     a ZZR12 is like ten year old technology for a sports touring bike!  the wieght of a busa with the power of a 600 ( an older 01 600) NO offense but ,..   go back and read eyr own post yer advising all these guys based on  flawed experience and obvious illconcieved  bias,...


Bobby, you are misinformed about the ZZR, while it's not a Busa, it'll absolutely destroy a 600.

Thanks for your insight, but some actual information would be nice rather than tossing around name calling and insults.

And FYI, Pete rides a Busa

  Naw, I dont have a busa , I ride 03 1k and 06 fz1.
 ZZR has been gone a few years .
ZZR was hella strong bike though .  Would hang with Mr. busa in a dragrace ,not after that though  That probably would not compute with Ardecs  calculations though.
 Fast as an old 600 huh????? Come on Ardec
Ardec  maybe you dont know all you think you do .
 I know you're a scientific type guy with your math and sliderule but can you ride ??? Some of your statements make me think not.
Hanging around a  race team doesnt count.
 Although I agree with Codes princpals ,you dont learn how to ride from a book .
 And dont even get me started on those Ducati homos that are afraid to  go fast cause their way to expensive bike might get scratched up.
 For the record Ive never told anyone to weight one peg over the other .I hate that same stupid old arguement .. I think I said,"just get off the bike and dont worry which peg  you weight and if you need to think about which bar to pull or push then I cant help you.
« Last Edit: October 14, 2007, 06:40:25 PM by zzr12pete »
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Offline In10SS

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Re: 180 rear tire
« Reply #27 on: November 01, 2007, 04:55:49 PM »
I sure don't want to jump into the middle of anyones pissing contest, but I can see some of the arguments on both sides.  Just so happens, I just had bikes with similiar tires, one with 180/55 and one with 190/50 in the garage.  The more rounded 180 felt better to me transitioning in and out of corners.  I can't believe  there is much difference in the size of the contact patch or ultimate grip, but  the higher aspect ratio tire could possibly help the rider approach his and the tires limits a little more smoothly  I'[d really like to see what a 190/55 on a 6.25 rim would be like.  I probably won't drop to a 180/55 next time, but would definately go for a 190/55 if it was available in a tire I liked.  Thanks
2007 black, akrapovic slip-ons, PCIII usb, small box mod, helibars & genmars, 17/42, speedohealer, buell peg mod, race tech 1.1 springs, eibach rear spring, OK Now I'm ready for some appearance mods . . . if only there was more money & time!

Offline CADDYWOMPUS

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Re: 180 rear tire
« Reply #28 on: November 13, 2007, 08:19:02 PM »
at bottom of page on this Bridgestone link ,you'll see that a particular sized tire can be run on several sized rims .
http://www.motorcycle-karttires.com/glamourindex.aspx?productID=6&LookupID=9
« Last Edit: November 13, 2007, 08:22:12 PM by zzr12pete »
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Offline Madmax56

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Re: 180 rear tire
« Reply #29 on: November 20, 2007, 06:04:59 PM »
no offense guys but,.. if the manufacturer, tire designers and all the true pro fast riding people thought the 28 was bext on a busa,.. it would come stock that way,.. for all the rest of you guys, couch engineers, and inexperienced street riders,.. talk all day long,... the facts are the facts,..   190's are the best tire for litre bikes and above. period this discussion is becoming like "what is the best oil too run?' topics,... ie all unsubstantiated "opinions" no facts by tru knowledgeable people

im outah here

Before you can offer carte blanch decisions like this, it would probably be beneficial to you to actually try the tyre size.
I too use an Avon (Viper) and have used the 180 for some years.  The bike tips in more easily with this section on.

Try it, road and race and you may be a little surprised.


Cheers



Max :1:

Offline FJman

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Re: 180 rear tire
« Reply #30 on: November 23, 2007, 12:10:46 PM »
dude   bikes turn at any decent speed for one reason its a proven fact   by countersteer NOT by leaning the bike,.. the is leaned simple to counteract centrifigul motion,... guys go back to high school look at simple math and physics,...  yer high shool teachers know more about this then you do!

Sorry, I have to say it, but you're a fool.


Bikes steer by turning the bars INTO the direction they're turning.  From bicycles on up.  Period.  Simple physics.  If I put a stop so you couldn't steer into the turn, you'd fall off, or run of the road.  Every time.

How they INITITATE that turning motion is another thing entirely.  Countersteering is a way of initiating a lean very rapidly.  However, simply leaning will produce the same overall effect, just slower. 

Anyone who says that you can't "just lean" a bike to initiate a turn has never had a passenger who was f'king with them.  Period.  I'm a solid 205lbs, if not more (don't depress me), and I can force your bike to go all over the road as a passenger.  NO countersteering, my hands are on your waist (you hope, lol).  Making the bike lean can happen through countersteering, which moves the contact pactches out from under the machine, or from moving weight aboive the contact patches.  It's a lot harder to move my fat ass over a foot than it is to twitch the bars a quarter inch, so it's slower to lean, but it's every bit as viable.

Stop beliving what you read and start trying stuff out. If you lock the steering so the bike will ONLY point straight or left, and then lean in left, it'll turn left (you'll turn the bars left to keep it balanced once it's turning).  However, countersteering will not be possible, and yet, you can still turn that direction.  Turning right will be impossible, if you lean right or countersteer left to lean it right, you'll fall off, as it's not possible to turn right unless the bars can be turned right.

Period.  You're welcome to set up a bike to test this, but if you don't agree, I'd suggest frame sliders and good leathers, as you'll be using them.


Offline Mospeada

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Re: 180 rear tire
« Reply #31 on: November 29, 2007, 11:52:45 AM »
dude   bikes turn at any decent speed for one reason its a proven fact   by countersteer NOT by leaning the bike,.. the is leaned simple to counteract centrifigul motion,... guys go back to high school look at simple math and physics,...  yer high shool teachers know more about this then you do!

Sorry, I have to say it, but you're a fool.


Bikes steer by turning the bars INTO the direction they're turning.  From bicycles on up.  Period.  Simple physics.  If I put a stop so you couldn't steer into the turn, you'd fall off, or run of the road.  Every time.

How they INITITATE that turning motion is another thing entirely.  Countersteering is a way of initiating a lean very rapidly.  However, simply leaning will produce the same overall effect, just slower. 

Anyone who says that you can't "just lean" a bike to initiate a turn has never had a passenger who was f'king with them.  Period.  I'm a solid 205lbs, if not more (don't depress me), and I can force your bike to go all over the road as a passenger.  NO countersteering, my hands are on your waist (you hope, lol).  Making the bike lean can happen through countersteering, which moves the contact pactches out from under the machine, or from moving weight aboive the contact patches.  It's a lot harder to move my fat ass over a foot than it is to twitch the bars a quarter inch, so it's slower to lean, but it's every bit as viable.

Stop beliving what you read and start trying stuff out. If you lock the steering so the bike will ONLY point straight or left, and then lean in left, it'll turn left (you'll turn the bars left to keep it balanced once it's turning).  However, countersteering will not be possible, and yet, you can still turn that direction.  Turning right will be impossible, if you lean right or countersteer left to lean it right, you'll fall off, as it's not possible to turn right unless the bars can be turned right.

Period.  You're welcome to set up a bike to test this, but if you don't agree, I'd suggest frame sliders and good leathers, as you'll be using them.




Ooooh oooh ooh!! My turn!!!

At low speeds, yes, you turn the bike into the direction of the turn. Above around about 20mph or more, you countersteer. Always. This is the first thing they teach you at the beginner MSF course when you buy your first bike.

Yes, you *can* steer, to a degree, simply by leaning into the turn. But this isn't very effective or efficient. Countersteering makes you fall into the turn, but your also countersteering throughout the entire turn.


Honestly, telling someone to always steer by turning into the turn with the handlebars, is just downright wrong, dangerous, irresponsible and ignorant. At 60 mph plus into a right-hand sweeper, which bar are you pushing forward to turn the bike? The right side bar is pushed forward (thus, turning 'left' to fall and go right).

So let's all say this loud and proud: COUNTERSTEERING IS OUR FRIEND! It is also correct.

(for the record, I've been riding for 16 years, been doing track days with my WERA/CCS racing friends for 8 years, and have completed 2 race schools.)
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Offline FJman

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Re: 180 rear tire
« Reply #32 on: November 29, 2007, 12:14:10 PM »
I don't read the books.  Actually, I've read them.  All of them.  Worse, I understand them, instead of taking it as gospel.

I ride the bike. 

You can NOT turn a bike without turning into it.  Try it, I dare you.  Bet me double?  I'll put crap in your steering head so you can't turn in at all.  You will go straight, or you WILL fall off (assuming you can turn INTO the turn, you'll lean into it... assuming you can't turn at all, you're going to leave paint on the pavement, and a bit of plastic too).  Period. End of story.  I won't try this myself, becuase I've proven it right (try a dirtbike with a shitload of grass and crap in the steering. I've ridden enough miles, I've tried enough things, and I've definitely ridden bikes with severe turning issues.. lol.... Try me.

Lean it, it turns in, when you turn the bars.  Again, I'll ride bitch and prove just how badly I can screw with your lines.

Countersteer?  it turns in FAST.  That's the point.  To say that you can't turn without countersteering is retarded, and wrong.  To say that you can't initiate a turn HARD without countersteering is pretty much right.

There's more than one way to INITIATE a turn into a corner.  There's more than one way to do a wheelie.  Yet, fundamentally they're the same.

To turn in, you MUST shift the CoG to a side.  You can move the weight (slow), or you can flick the contact patches out from under the CoG (fast).  ONE YOURE TURNING, you turn INTO it.  Period.  It's a question of how to initiate that lean to let you balance while leaned over.  I can't understand why there's debate on this... there shouldn't be.  It's NOT that hard.

To wheelie, you MUST put down more power than the chassis will hold.  You can do this with the clutch, you can bounce the suspension, or you can just make shitwads of power (ask the dragracers about this).

Saying there's only one way to turn a bike is a sign of someone who's read all the books, tried it out, and still doesn't really understand.


Fat passenger to rent, will prove you wrong at will.  Try it.
« Last Edit: November 29, 2007, 12:18:18 PM by FJman »

Offline Mospeada

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Re: 180 rear tire
« Reply #33 on: November 29, 2007, 12:35:14 PM »
I want to make sure we're on the same page here.

Are you telling me that, in a 70 mph right hand sweeper, you're litterally turning the handlebars to the right?

*That* is the point I'm making here. That the above is wrong, and dangerous.

Dirt, btw, at speed (re: NOT slow) does more countersteer than street bikes. That's why you always see these great photos of them backing it in.
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Offline FJman

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Re: 180 rear tire
« Reply #34 on: November 29, 2007, 12:54:06 PM »
Yes.  yes I am.

If you're telling me that I could put a screw/nut into your steering stops, so you could NOT turn left on the bars at all, and you think you'd turn left in any turn...

Well, I'd like to be your insurance adjsuter.  Mount a camera to your tank, and record a section or two of twisties.  Or even of parking lot stuff.  Or around town.  Or ANY place you turn left.  You WILL see the bars turn left.

Stop reading books.  Stop looking online for wisdom.  Think for yourself, prove to yourself, and measure.  You'll rethink things.


Edit:

i've ridden an awful lot of dirt.  I've also ridden gravel (street bike, MX bike, hell even a scooter).  I've ridden wet, dry, dusty, slick, sticky, sandy, name it.  I'm a commuter with a dirt background. :)  I dislike cold, I'll admit, my knees get cold and don't get warm for an hour or so afterwards.

Get off your computer and try these things.  I can initiate a nice, gentle corner by JUST leaning.  (Had a chick on the back one who taught me thie principle VERY well).  You can lean the bike and go straight.  It's possible.  (Put a fat chick on back who's scared of cornering, trust me.. don't ask me how she got there... ugh...)  A goldwing often burns the left side of the tire uo more than the right, is due to the crowning of the roads in the states.  I can lean a bike on my hip in the garage with the wheels pointed straight and where can I push it?  Straight, only, or it gets really goddamn heavy fast....

Initiating a turn is caused by forcing the CoG to one side.  You can do it by countersteering, by leaning, by hanging a midget off the side, doesn't matter.  But once you've turned in, YOU WILL turn the bars into the turn (or you'll fall off).

« Last Edit: November 29, 2007, 01:00:14 PM by FJman »

Offline Mospeada

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Re: 180 rear tire
« Reply #35 on: November 29, 2007, 01:08:55 PM »
I'm not basis my opinion off the internet or books. I'm basing it off what all the pro racers and teachers and instructors have been telling me for years. Are you telling me that Jason Pridmore is wrong? Because he himself has instructed me and my friends. As well as others.

They all countersteer.

And I WOULD have had video of me at Willow Springs this last saturday if my buddy hadn't borrowed my new camera mount.

So the question is, have *you* ever been to a race school or a track day?
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Offline FJman

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Re: 180 rear tire
« Reply #36 on: November 29, 2007, 09:42:51 PM »
So that Reg Pridmore isn't a teacher or pro?  :)


I'll edit, now that I have some time.


Keith Code (one of those "pros") has a specalized bike, with hard mounted extra handlebars on it.  His idea is to prove that you can't steer a bike without countersteering.  Dunno about you, but I can steer with my hands off the bars completely, at times. 

Reg Pridmore, one of the oldest/most experienced instructors (and yes, ex-champ) around, teaches that you can steer a bike any of a number of ways.  He challenges you to put the book down and go ride. 

(He's right.)


Once the bike is turning (i.e., after turnin point), you WILL turn the bars into the corner.  Period, end of story.  If you countersteered and never turned in, you'd either turn the wrong way or fall off.  Even pushing a bike around the garage, you HAVE to turn the bars in the direction of travel.

It actually works this way in a car too, if you think for a moment.  If you're pulling into a parking space, you turn the wheel in your car pretty hard.  What, 180degrees?  120?  200?  something like that.  Now, if you were cornering around the same radius corner on a track at 20mph, how far would you turn the steering wheel (in your car)?  Right!  You'd turn it the same amount, becuase that dicates the amount of angle that your front wheels have, and thus where the car is going to go.  (I'm assumming infininte traction here, incidentally.. in truth, turning into a parking space at 60mph would be ugly for you and the cars parked around you as well.)

Okay, on a bike then. You turn into a parking space at walking speed.  How far do you turn the bars?  About the same angle.  You can turn them a touch less if you lean the bike into the turn (under you, as the MSF preaches), or you can hang off and turn into that space with the bars turning in (you'll look silly when you hit the nose of the car parked in the opposing space, though).

Now, let's take that same tight left turn into a parking space, and put it on the open roads.  How far do you turn the wheel in a car?  Same as ever.  How far do you turn the bars on the bike?  Same as ever.  Let's assume you've got infinite traction (!), infinite cornering clearance, and are on a bike at 100mph.  How far do you have to turn the bars to get through that corner?  That's right, exactly the same as at any other time.

Let's try this a different way.  If you're on a skidpad, 600m diameter, and you're doing 100mph.  You're in a steady state corner that never ends (think, on-ramp from hell).  The faster you go, the more you're going to lean, becuase you need to do that to stay balanced as the added centripital force pushes the C-G to the outside.  At walking speed, the bars are turned IN THE DIRECTION OF THE TURN, and you're leaning a tiny, tiny amount.  At 100mph, the bars are turned roughly the same amount (it isn't, becuase the tire is on the shoulder becuase of the lean and you're compensating for a different wheel radius, but it's close), and the bike is leaning much harder, just to remain balanced.

Still with me?  These are all simple concepts, we're just taking them a piece at a time.  Every single track book, instructor, and so on, will agree with all of these, that I've ever read/dealt with.



Okay, now for the tricky part.  You're on the entry runway to the skidpad.  You're doing 100mph on the bike.  You hit the point of no return and HAVE to turn the bike in or go off the road (the track is a giant P shape, if that explains things).  To corner and remain balanced, you will need to get the bike into that leaned position.

Let's stop, ala Keith Code, and define lean.  It's when the bike's contact patches are not under the C-G.  Normally, this would mean you're falling off the bloody thing.  However, when you add in centripital force, you're balanced.  Right?  Everyone still with me? 

Now, another way to look at it is that you HAVE to lean to stay balanced when you turn.  If not, the C-G will be on the outside of the contact patches, and foom you're going to go smootch the guardraill.  Imagine staying dead upright and trying to turn!  BANG, to the outside (and wall) you go!

So you are entering this "P".  You can either move the contact patches around (best done with countersteering, a quick flick and the rubber is well off to one side), or you can lean in with your body and move the C-G around.  Which is quicker, a quick flick of the bars or moving your bodyweight around?  Well, remember if you move the bars (the contact patch moves underneath the bike) and not only does your body become offset but also the weight of the bike.  BANG and you're leaning over hard.  If you move say 200lbs of body around, the bike will lean, but it'll take time for your weight to move the 300-600lbs of bike under you, to lean.

In either case, the bike is still leaning, and you can continue. 

Now, it becomes interesting.  The bike is at lean, say 30 degrees, and you're sitting bolt upgright.  You're doing big circles at 60mph.

To go faster, you have to lean farther, right?  Well, no.  You can hang WAAAAAY off the bike, and probably reduce the actual lean angle to 28 degrees, and go faster.  How is this possible?  The total C-G shifted towards the inside. 

You can stay bolt upgright and lean the bike a touch more.  The total C-G moves inside, and you can go faster (retaining your balance, as the increased centripital force counteracts this). 

You can lean the bike down and lean the "wrong" way too. Same effect, the total C-G moves inside, and you can go faster.  However, the bike is most likely to start running out of ground clearance this way.  That's why racers hang off, it moves the actual bike the least, and increases cornering speed for a given amount of lean angle on the bike (improving ground clearance as well as the tire contact patch gets tiny when you hit the edge).


Now, you're in a constant corner.  Your body position doesn't really matter for this example.  All that matters is that you're going say 100mph and turning.  What can be done to turn harder when the corner tightens up?  You can countersteer, moving the contact patches out slightly, and leaning harder.  You can hang off farther, pulling the bike down with you.  You can spin the rear tire a touch and the contact patches will move away from you, changing the C-G to contact patch angle.  All are legitimate, and you can see examples of each, on certain corners at some tracks.



Reg Pridmore's CLASS is the only track school that seems to teach this stuff, and thus is the only one I'd bother to go to (other than track time, wheee!!!!!!).  I know the fundamentals of riding, I've ridden on a LOT of bikes, on varying surfaces, in pretty much every condition.  The other classes that I've read up on seem to teach "for track only" stuff, but Reg's material says this is how the bike works, understand it, go faster becuase you know what you're doing.  That sounds like what I want.

While you're flaming, I don't own a busa, so obviously I can't ride.  heh.

« Last Edit: November 30, 2007, 11:50:36 AM by FJman »

Offline Mospeada

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Re: 180 rear tire
« Reply #37 on: November 30, 2007, 06:58:27 PM »
Lol, ok, honestly I'm going to have to read that a couple of times to make sure i got it right. I have an idea of testing what Reg and you are saying, but can't do it until I get to the track next. We'll see.
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Offline Ardec2

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Re: 180 rear tire
« Reply #38 on: December 08, 2007, 09:40:13 AM »
mospeed   ,. i got lost in all that  myself,.... BUT on the other hand go back and read all the posts see how my posts get people so riled up?

I probably wont answer or reply to this guy  as he is convinced he is smarter then everyone on the planet,. and that books are bad,. yet he knows all about 'simple physics',. an apple probably hit him in the head,.. i dunno?

People may or may not believe what i say but everything can be substantiated at the library or race track,.. when both of those say different ill believe that you steer into the turn,... Hah!  robert
robert-  to most a "YANKEE",.  i live in the south and tell em "but i'm from "southern" california!

Offline FJman

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Re: 180 rear tire
« Reply #39 on: December 08, 2007, 10:49:13 AM »
I probably wont answer or reply to this guy  as he is convinced he is smarter then everyone on the planet,. and that books are bad,. yet he knows all about 'simple physics',. an apple probably hit him in the head,.. i dunno?

People may or may not believe what i say but everything can be substantiated at the library or race track,.. when both of those say different ill believe that you steer into the turn,... Hah!  robert

Smarter than everyone else, probably not.  But smart enough to look at what my bike is doing while I'm riding it?  Sure.

Actually, once you start understanding what you read/hear, you'll hear people such as Keith Code also agreeing with me.  THEY understand these principles, just don't necessarily explain it real well.  Often times people read something, think they understand it, then just parrot it back.

If I'm wrong, prove otherwise.  Lock your steering head so it can't go the slightest bit left, and ride the thing.  You will not ever turn left, and yet you will be able to turn right--In fact, you may not even be able to hold a straight line, instead riding in a gentle turn to the right.

Try it.  I openly challenge anyone, put the books away, get out, and try things out.  They really do work.

Offline Mospeada

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Re: 180 rear tire
« Reply #40 on: December 10, 2007, 04:25:45 PM »
The jist that I'm getting, is that you can counter steer to initiate the turn, but I guess FJ (?) is saying that IN the turn, you are turning the handlebars/wheel in the direction you are heading. Which i've never heard before.

To test myself? Fine. Simple. All I need is to attach a pen/pencil on my handlebars facing me, but not touching the tank. This will act as a pendulum that will point in the direction that the front wheel is turned in mid corner of a fast sweeper. Example - in a right sweeper, if the pen (after counter steering initial 'drop' into corner....) starts pointing at me, and to my left, then FJ's comments are correct. Or, if the pen is pointed to the front of the bike, it will point to the right on a right hand sweeper.

It's been raining in San Diego. I'll probably screw with this experiment soon enough and will report back.
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Offline Ardec2

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Re: 180 rear tire
« Reply #41 on: December 11, 2007, 10:01:37 AM »
yo elfman,.. or is that Mr bitch rider?

(I'm a solid 205lbs, if not more (don't depress me), and I can force your bike to go all over the road as a passenger.)

i'm not flaming you personally,.. just the garbage yer spewing!

my honest opinion,. is if we dont have a clue, shut up!

if we think we should quit our day jobs and teach motorcycle riding,..  not me!,.. mr elf,.. who thinks that the so called books,. and teaching experts are all full of sh*t,..  oh wait you said they understand it just explain it poorly?

"Still with me? These are all simple concepts, we're just taking them a piece at a time. Every single track book, instructor, and so on, will agree with all of these, that I've ever read/dealt wih"

simple physics?,....   fact    bikes and all two wheeled vehicals turn according to the countersteer principles, which when you use a bike   to show,.. turn the wheel to the right the bike center of gravity falls and remains to the opposite side thFTE and the bike goes left or car, or whatever!   leaning the bike is merely to keep it from falling over the opposite direction due to centrifigul force,...   except for bitch riders with 205 lb  rolling to the outside.. which cause all sorts of hell! 
personally i dismiss all bitch ridning physics as bitch physics,.. lol

"Bikes steer by turning the bars INTO the direction they're turning. From bicycles on up. Period. Simple physics. If I put a stop so you couldn't steer into the turn, you'd fall off, or run of the road. Every time.",... MR elf     shut up! yer so far out there its silly!

ps,.. uhm       yes ive read a bit and yes i surf the net,.. BUT mainly to educate myself and destroy the bs like yerself!

I'm 50yo riding since a kid,. have a BS in mech engineering,. and have raced cars, bikes, boats,. and own my own sportbike shop with a dyno and we do alot of race prep,. and tuning trackside.. My partner is a pro rider,. I ownly ride for fun and to test the hundreds of customers bikes,....   I've yet to ride a bike that when rolled over into a slow 20-30 mph corner DOES not have to be countersteered to maintain the turn,... ie pushing to the outside or the turn via pressure on the inside bars to the outside,...
scuse me,.. shut up and just ride   teaching is NOT yer thing   robert




robert-  to most a "YANKEE",.  i live in the south and tell em "but i'm from "southern" california!

Offline FJman

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Re: 180 rear tire
« Reply #42 on: December 11, 2007, 10:38:30 AM »
yI'm 50yo riding since a kid,. have a BS in mech engineering,. and have raced cars, bikes, boats,. and own my own sportbike shop with a dyno and we do alot of race prep,. and tuning trackside.. My partner is a pro rider,. I ownly ride for fun and to test the hundreds of customers bikes,....   I've yet to ride a bike that when rolled over into a slow 20-30 mph corner DOES not have to be countersteered to maintain the turn,... ie pushing to the outside or the turn via pressure on the inside bars to the outside,...
scuse me,.. shut up and just ride   teaching is NOT yer thing   robert

In my experience, mechanical engineers were some of the stupidest people I've ever met in my life.  Just sayin.  :)

If you don't believe me, think i'm a dumbass, etc, get a video camera, mount it to your bike, and post proof that I'm wrong.

Gluck with it.  I'm right.  Flat simply put.  Any two wheel, inline vehicle works the same way, from a bicycle to a drag bike to a gp bike.

They only turn (without crashing) in one way.  How they initiate that turn can be done in a number of ways, all with the same result (c-g becoming offset to the contact patches).

Period.  I'll stfu and repent as soon as someone posts video or better a measured test that proves me wrong.  Not worried a whit... I don't just read shit online and listen to track instructors, I understand them.  Helps a ton :D

Offline Jynx

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Re: 180 rear tire
« Reply #43 on: December 11, 2007, 11:11:48 PM »


Technically correct.  On exit, you DO steer in to the direction of the corner...as in if you are going right...once you are past apex and want to straighten the bike up, you turn the bars to the right.

However...counter steering on exit will NOT be any greater than the turn initiating counter steer.  The gyroscopic effects of the wheels make certain of that.  If you were in a large lot and counter steering around cones...you let go of the bars...the bike will stand back up on it's own.

Think of it this way...you turn the bars left to turn right...you have to straighten them out on exit...thus TECHNICALLY turning them back to the right...ie center. 

I am not certain, however, that if you were to put a lock in preventing the bars from turning past center to the right for instance, that you could not safely turn right (counter steering left then exiting the corner, bringing the bars back to center)

Offline EtrnlSoldier

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Re: 180 rear tire
« Reply #44 on: December 12, 2007, 12:09:36 AM »
Another +1 on the 180 rear.  Go up 2 or 3 teeth on the rear sprocket and it get's even better.

The tire does flatten out a bit, but since you can't really use the last bit of tire on a 190 without scrubbing the bodywork

Ummm...I disagree.  I run a 190 Pilot Power and have never hit the body work.  My tires are worn right to the very edge.  But then again, I don't ruin my busa's handling by lowering it.  You set the bike up for road racing (ie-raise the rear and re-spring the front, amongst other things) and it's impossible to hit the body work without crashing. 

I do hear that a 180 works very well.  Just had to correct that statement about the 190. 
"Straights are for fast bikes.  Turns are for fast riders."

Me.

Offline EtrnlSoldier

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Re: 180 rear tire
« Reply #45 on: December 12, 2007, 12:15:34 AM »
dude   bikes turn at any decent speed for one reason its a proven fact   by countersteer NOT by leaning the bike,.. the is leaned simple to counteract centrifigul motion,... guys go back to high school look at simple math and physics,...  yer high shool teachers know more about this then you do!

Actually, it is indeed the effect of leaning that turns the bike.  Countersteering simply induces the lean, which creates the turn.  You can, however, turn the bike without countersteering, as has already been said and, for high speed stuff, ala the racetrack, this is the preferred method.  I learned this the expensive way, via Freddie Spencer, and I'm glad I did. 
"Straights are for fast bikes.  Turns are for fast riders."

Me.

Offline Jynx

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Re: 180 rear tire
« Reply #46 on: December 12, 2007, 12:24:06 AM »
Another +1 on the 180 rear.  Go up 2 or 3 teeth on the rear sprocket and it get's even better.

The tire does flatten out a bit, but since you can't really use the last bit of tire on a 190 without scrubbing the bodywork

Ummm...I disagree.  I run a 190 Pilot Power and have never hit the body work.  My tires are worn right to the very edge.  But then again, I don't ruin my busa's handling by lowering it.  You set the bike up for road racing (ie-raise the rear and re-spring the front, amongst other things) and it's impossible to hit the body work without crashing. 

I do hear that a 180 works very well.  Just had to correct that statement about the 190. 

I have my front down 1", run Avon 190/50 and have never scraped a thing...down to 1/8" or less on either side...no issues.  Then again my front suspension is re-sprung for my weight...and the rear shock is stiffened up quite a bit.


Offline Ardec2

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Re: 180 rear tire
« Reply #47 on: December 13, 2007, 09:43:16 AM »
yes indeed its about  time that some common sense prevails about the 190 on litre bikes,     some people seem to think that all the factories and road racers and engineers are wrong about using a 190mm tire 6" rim,..

I believe that it is correct to set up a bike to the rider weight and style, (if yer a drag racer go lower and fergit about 'handling except in a straightline)    There are mathmatical formulas to help determine the proper spring rate per rider and style but ,.. these are suggested baseline points not verbatum numbers.

a good rule of thumb is to do staic and rider sag (ride hieghts),. and dont forget about stiction in the math!  I always work 1st for a balance front and rear sag,... for performance street riding 30's   30-32 or so,.. (both front and rear) but dont worry if the rear is a bit stiffer! 

By comparing the static sag  number to rider or total we gain insight as to how the bike and rider relate to the spring rate!  REMEMBER spring rate is built into the spring and unchangeable!   ie a 400 lb spring is always a 400 lb spring and increases its resistance at a rate of 400 lbs per one inch travel!    sag or preload is merely the starting point!

ex a 200 lb rear sag force moves a 400 lb spring about 1/2 inch ( not accounting for linkages etc)

what we are looking for  is a 8-12 mm  static sag in the rear or 30/10 rear 
and a 20-24mm plus staic front at about 34/24 mm      this is rough   numbers and baseline only     

if the staic number is very low  ex for rear   2-4mm at 30 rider,.. then the spring is too high of rate!

the oppsoite applies and if 14-18mm static at 30mm the spring too soft!

static is also an important geometry/suspension measure as it represents the amount of upward travel available,...
anyone ever hit a hole with a near bottomedout front and expereinced the instant slide will understand.

forget shock and fork valving issues until decent sag and spring rates are applied,  shocks and forks are 10-20 percent of the suspension AFTER proper srpings and sag is set.

Also forget about ideal clicks in the suspension,... the tolerances are so great  and riders and bikes and tires etc so different its a waste of time,... instead pick a high tight starting point 80-90 percent of max and tune as you ride!,...

good luck and  dont forget to counter steer !
robert
robert-  to most a "YANKEE",.  i live in the south and tell em "but i'm from "southern" california!

Offline Kat_man

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Re: 180 rear tire
« Reply #48 on: December 13, 2007, 11:59:46 AM »
Ardec, that's a pretty good write up on suspension set up, especially comparing static and rider sag.  I think that it's too often left out of the equation, but a bike that is topping out on rebound is going to be handling poorly.  And the sag is the first place to start on set-up.

Offline Jynx

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Re: 180 rear tire
« Reply #49 on: December 13, 2007, 12:18:34 PM »
Yep, static sag and rider sag are the VERY first place to start.

Remember when you set rider sag to suit up as you normally ride so that the weight is somewhat accurate...