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Author Topic: ZX-14 Heads/Ports  (Read 32199 times)

Offline mike46

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Re: ZX-14 Heads/Ports
« Reply #50 on: October 13, 2007, 06:33:48 PM »


 Before that we did all porting by hand. URGHHh.  Hand porting is NOT fun nor easy to teach new help how to do properly.
I agree. Off topic....what type of hand porting tools were you using? Foredom etc. Also...do you develop port design from hand laid ports or is everything conceptual.
" The inherent vice of capitalism is the unequal sharing of blessing, the inherent virtue of socialism is the equal sharing of miseries"  Winston Churchill. Obviously Obama is no student of history.

Offline Competition CNC

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Re: ZX-14 Heads/Ports
« Reply #51 on: October 14, 2007, 07:38:49 AM »
We use carbide cutters, stones, paper rolls,flapper rolls,and some other crazy looking gizmos I cant describe.

Usually we will hand port one or two ports and go back and fourth to the flow bench about a bazillion times to qualify the porting as we go and see if we can get to where we need to be. Then digitize the port.
Sometimes we digitize and then make changes in MasterCam.  Sometimes Both.  Either way its tested for turbulence areas, velocity, flow, flow location, etc. after the first test port is cut.

The stage 1 hayabusa port is our first 100% digital designed port. But we did do hand ports on another head first and new what changes we need to do. Because of the tolerances and how little material (.005" in most places) is removed we had to do it this way.  A good Stage 1 port is much more difficult to actually cut in into the head than a large, peak power type port for a big 1650cc engine is.  Theres alignment issues on 3 axis from casting core shift and factory machining variances.  We actually have to partially digitize each head that gets placed on the machine and move the toolpaths in the computer for proper alignment to the shifted ports. Each head is slightly different. Its a PITA but its the only way to get a precise small stage 1 port. Until this new machine was available a year ago this was impractical to do with a typical cnc setup with a renishaw digitizing table. You would have had to charge a lot of money to get each head set up this precise for cutting. 
Now a big port head you just put the head on the machine and cut the port.  This works on a big port because you are removing a lot more material and it will "correct" the port locations.
« Last Edit: October 14, 2007, 07:49:33 AM by Y2KZX12R »
Jim

Offline mike46

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Re: ZX-14 Heads/Ports
« Reply #52 on: October 14, 2007, 10:46:39 AM »
We use carbide cutters, stones, paper rolls,flapper rolls,and some other crazy looking gizmos I cant describe.

Usually we will hand port one or two ports and go back and fourth to the flow bench about a bazillion times to qualify the porting as we go and see if we can get to where we need to be. Then digitize the port.
Sometimes we digitize and then make changes in MasterCam.  Sometimes Both.  Either way its tested for turbulence areas, velocity, flow, flow location, etc. after the first test port is cut.

The stage 1 hayabusa port is our first 100% digital designed port. But we did do hand ports on another head first and new what changes we need to do. Because of the tolerances and how little material (.005" in most places) is removed we had to do it this way.  A good Stage 1 port is much more difficult to actually cut in into the head than a large, peak power type port for a big 1650cc engine is.  Theres alignment issues on 3 axis from casting core shift and factory machining variances.  We actually have to partially digitize each head that gets placed on the machine and move the toolpaths in the computer for proper alignment to the shifted ports. Each head is slightly different. Its a PITA but its the only way to get a precise small stage 1 port. Until this new machine was available a year ago this was impractical to do with a typical cnc setup with a renishaw digitizing table. You would have had to charge a lot of money to get each head set up this precise for cutting. 
Now a big port head you just put the head on the machine and cut the port.  This works on a big port because you are removing a lot more material and it will "correct" the port locations.
Thanks! When I inquired about the hand porting tools I was curious as whether you use the larger electric die grinders or a Foredom type set up with variable foot actuated speed control. I have used the Foredom for years as I feel it gives total control in regard to speed which is very important IMO when cutting aluminum. Some folks can't get the feel for the foot control. The larger die grinder is great for removing a lot of material (large guide bosses etc) because it has more weight. I have always felt they are difficult to control especially when using the large flute (Alumihogs) carbide burrs.
" The inherent vice of capitalism is the unequal sharing of blessing, the inherent virtue of socialism is the equal sharing of miseries"  Winston Churchill. Obviously Obama is no student of history.

Offline Competition CNC

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Re: ZX-14 Heads/Ports
« Reply #53 on: October 14, 2007, 05:00:17 PM »
Oh OK, I see.  Well, I personally can use an air powered die grinder well with good control from years and years of using them.  But I prefer the large electric/foot controlled grinders we have in the shop.  I have grown to really hate the noise and freezing cold temps of the air powered die grinders.  In the last several months I've personally been doing a lot of prototype porting again and remember just how annoying it can be.  I walk around all day with ear muffs on because the flow bench is just as bad for hearing and if I'm not grinding I'm flow testing.   WHHHATTT?  :D
Jim

Offline Competition CNC

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Re: ZX-14 Heads/Ports
« Reply #54 on: October 18, 2007, 08:45:00 PM »
Sorry but this is a copy of what I posted over on zx14.com....

I spent an hour examining a zx14 cylinder head tonight.
The outer intake ports are indeed canted inwards much like a busa. But thats where the similarities end.
The short turn radius of the intake port is obviously not intended to flow a ton of air. Instead they are shooting the highest velocity center of the column of air at the back of the valve so as to shoot it threw the "window". They did a great job of fixing the chambers from the zx12r chambers. They lowered the eyebrow by widening the chamber instead of laying the eyebrow back like I had to do with the zx12r head and busa head.
The head is narrower in both directions, shorter, and weighs less. The head bolt pattern in narrower but the spacing on the inner 6 is the same. The bore spacing is the same. The dowel pins are not. This means I'll need a different plate to mount it on the cnc head porting machine.
The exhaust ports are a big improvement over the zx12r and even more so than the busa. They increased the volume bigtime and increased the radius of the short turn.

It appears that they are intensionally inducing flow separation from the short turn.  Its a sharp edge made to induce this.
I'll bet at low lift the flow reattaches nicely and starts to flow the full 360 of the valve again. Perfect for final stuffing of the cylinder as the valve closes.
It should be very audibly obvious on the flow bench exactly when this separation and reattachment happens.  Typically after separation reattachment doesn't happen until the valve is .050" or so more closed then when the separation occurred.
Its really a velocity induced thing and carefully controlling the velocity will controll when the separation and reattachment happens.
I'm not sure but I would think it would be desireable to get the reattachment to happen earlier.
So this would mean that the low lift numbers are VERY important and valve seat timings are critical.
This port could be very difficult.

Do you guys have any thoughts on this?
« Last Edit: October 18, 2007, 08:56:21 PM by Y2KZX12R »
Jim

Offline DarkFalcon

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Re: ZX-14 Heads/Ports
« Reply #55 on: October 19, 2007, 03:03:52 AM »

The outer intake ports are indeed canted inwards much like a busa. But thats where the similarities end.
The short turn radius of the intake port is obviously not intended to flow a ton of air. Instead they are shooting the highest velocity center of the column of air at the back of the valve so as to shoot it threw the "window". They did a great job of fixing the chambers from the zx12r chambers. They lowered the eyebrow by widening the chamber instead of laying the eyebrow back like I had to do with the zx12r head and busa head. They increased the volume bigtime and increased the radius of the short turn.

It appears that they are intensionally inducing flow separation from the short turn.  Its a sharp edge made to induce this.
I'll bet at low lift the flow reattaches nicely and starts to flow the full 360 of the valve again. Perfect for final stuffing of the cylinder as the valve closes.
It should be very audibly obvious on the flow bench exactly when this separation and reattachment happens.  Typically after separation reattachment doesn't happen until the valve is .050" or so more closed then when the separation occurred.
Its really a velocity induced thing and carefully controlling the velocity will controll when the separation and reattachment happens.
I'm not sure but I would think it would be desireable to get the reattachment to happen earlier.
So this would mean that the low lift numbers are VERY important and valve seat timings are critical.
This port could be very difficult.

Do you guys have any thoughts on this?

Jim, I don't think I have examined the port as closely as you have or examined it with eyes of your experience. Anyway, I tend to believe the port has its origins in Ducati and has been designed to produce high levels of "tumble" to generate in-cylinder charge motion to reduce combustion cycle time and promote lean burn. This should reduce pumping losses, improve combustion efficiency and keep the EPA happy. The means of doing this is through directing flow over the top half of the valve so the charge rolls over in the cylinder. As you observe: The short turn radius of the intake port is obviously not intended to flow a ton of air. Instead they are shooting the highest velocity center of the column of air at the back of the valve so as to shoot it threw the "window". The cost or tradeoff of doing this, though, is reduced flow because of directional bias and not taking advantage of the 360* comprising the valve.

In my mind, it is the axis of flow that drives this port.....not a particular sectional area. From the literature, though, port volume adjacent to the valve stem, the inner radius, the blend from the throat to the seat and the region between the seat insert and the valve are all very important in terms of design.

With very little SSR, I would think the 14 port would tolerate higher average and maximum port speeds than the Busa.....and the higher speeds would contribute to tumble kinetic energy.  The velocity field at intake closure is more than likely characterized by many vortices which could make intake valve closing relatively more critical, although these eventually dissipate as the piston approaches TDC. It reminds of the port featured in this patent:

http://www.uspto.gov/web/patents/patog/week09/OG/html/1315-4/US07182057-20070227.html


If you would, post a picture or further describe the edge you believe has been placed in the port to induce separation. Separately, if the flow does separate and reattaches at low lift I'm having a little difficulty in distinguishing the benefits from the reattached flow from the typical pressure rise stemming from correct wave timing. In other words, if the pressure spike is present it will get stuffed at IVC no matter what side of the valve the flow may be directed at. Benefits at IVO opening may be a different story.


« Last Edit: October 19, 2007, 04:54:54 AM by DarkFalcon »

Offline Competition CNC

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Re: ZX-14 Heads/Ports
« Reply #56 on: October 20, 2007, 05:39:42 AM »
Quote
If you would, post a picture or further describe the edge you believe has been placed in the port to induce separation. Separately, if the flow does separate and reattaches at low lift I'm having a little difficulty in distinguishing the benefits from the reattached flow from the typical pressure rise stemming from correct wave timing. In other words, if the pressure spike is present it will get stuffed at IVC no matter what side of the valve the flow may be directed at. Benefits at IVO opening may be a different story.

I'll get some pics up at some point of the short turn.

The pressure wave should help to reattach the flow earlier as will the reduction of velocity.   The benefit of reattached flow is the ability to flow air around the short turn and use the full 360 of the valve window again.
Until I test this head on the flow bench i wont know at what velocity and lift this detachment and reattachment happens.  I'll be testing this port at some very high test pressures way above 28" as well to try and see whats going on in this port.
I have no way of simulating the pressure waves influence on reattachment thou.
Jim

Offline omgang

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Re: ZX-14 Heads/Ports
« Reply #57 on: October 27, 2007, 04:15:09 PM »
Guys, I just wanted to say that I find this all fascinating and this is why the ALL MOTOR TALK forum is by far my favorite on this board.  I was an engineering major in college but ended up as an application developer/programmer.  The amount of combined knowledge displayed here sometimes baffles my mind.  Thanks.
OM Gang