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Author Topic: ZX14 Cam design  (Read 6589 times)

Offline gazza414

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ZX14 Cam design
« on: October 29, 2007, 01:39:05 AM »
Well, Kawasaki have done it again .....variable cam timing on 1 camshaft ( actualy its old news )..the shaft drive ZX14.. so I / We've got to ask the question,  when will the Busa  get this and maybe on both cams ?

MV and Yamaha R1's have variable inlet / trumpet length ECU controlled

Will Suzuki just string us out until they HAVE to update the bike or give their customers what is already old hat technology?
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Offline mike46

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Re: ZX14 Cam design
« Reply #1 on: October 29, 2007, 07:50:52 AM »
 Gazza....As long as they can produce good HP and torque through conventional means why get jiggy with it. :wink: It's much cheaper too........ Suzuki has never set records in regards to spending money. :?
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Offline gnd111

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Re: ZX14 Cam design
« Reply #2 on: October 29, 2007, 06:00:38 PM »
The Concours 14 is different thant eh ZZR14 in that respect and the Busa won;t ever have that.  It would be a waste for performance...
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Offline gazza414

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Re: ZX14 Cam design
« Reply #3 on: October 30, 2007, 06:04:26 AM »
Quote from: mike46 on October 29, 2007, 07:50:52 AM
Gazza....As long as they can produce good HP and torque through conventional means why get jiggy with it. :wink: It's much cheaper too........ Suzuki has never set records in regards to spending money. :?
I think your right Mike..but maybe their hand will be forced to play this card as competitors catch up---opps they already have.


Quote from: gnd111 on October 29, 2007, 06:00:38 PM
The Concours 14 is different thant eh ZZR14 in that respect and the Busa won;t ever have that.  It would be a waste for performance...

Why do you say it would be a waste of performance when by all accounts Honda's VFR800 has a neat cam setup PLUS  many European sports cars ..its really old technology in the scheme of things.
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Offline Oz Booster

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Re: ZX14 Cam design
« Reply #4 on: October 30, 2007, 06:46:22 AM »
Better have a ride on a vfr800 Garry, there anything but neat in use  :shock:
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Offline mike46

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Re: ZX14 Cam design
« Reply #5 on: October 30, 2007, 08:56:43 AM »
Quote from: Oz Booster on October 30, 2007, 06:46:22 AM
Better have a ride on a vfr800 Garry, there anything but neat in use  :shock:
Try a valve adjustment......YIKES! :shock:
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Offline Steve S

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Re: ZX14 Cam design
« Reply #6 on: October 30, 2007, 02:52:50 PM »
The general technology is somewhat old and I have counted 35 or so variations...............but it is surely on its way. With respect to Kawasaki technology, I would be concerned about the weight of the system, design guidelines and goals, system compatibility with high CR pistons and aftermarket camshafts and the ability of the valve-based oil pressure system to reliably support high RPM's. My hunch is that manufacturers are attracted to this technology as much for fuel economy and emissions reductions as they are for performance gains.
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Offline gnd111

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Re: ZX14 Cam design
« Reply #7 on: October 30, 2007, 05:10:49 PM »
Quote from: gazza414 on October 30, 2007, 06:04:26 AM
Quote from: mike46 on October 29, 2007, 07:50:52 AM
Gazza....As long as they can produce good HP and torque through conventional means why get jiggy with it. :wink: It's much cheaper too........ Suzuki has never set records in regards to spending money. :?
I think your right Mike..but maybe their hand will be forced to play this card as competitors catch up---opps they already have.


Quote from: gnd111 on October 29, 2007, 06:00:38 PM
The Concours 14 is different thant eh ZZR14 in that respect and the Busa won;t ever have that.  It would be a waste for performance...

Why do you say it would be a waste of performance when by all accounts Honda's VFR800 has a neat cam setup PLUS  many European sports cars ..its really old technology in the scheme of things.

It is a waste and will serve no purpose on a "performanc/drag style bike" like ours...
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Offline gazza414

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Re: ZX14 Cam design
« Reply #8 on: October 30, 2007, 05:45:25 PM »
Quote from: Oz Booster on October 30, 2007, 06:46:22 AM
Better have a ride on a vfr800 Garry, there anything but neat in use  :shock:

Yip , i haven't ridden  one Greg..I heard the transition at X rpm was pretty ordinary

I have driven my mates new BMW M5 a few times though and it has infinately variable cam timing on both IN and EX and it does work in combination with fuel and ign mapping....think it also has infinately variable trumpet / stack length too?

Quote from: Steve S on October 30, 2007, 02:52:50 PM
The general technology is somewhat old and I have counted 35 or so variations...............but it is surely on its way. With respect to Kawasaki technology, I would be concerned about the weight of the system, design guidelines and goals, system compatibility with high CR pistons and aftermarket camshafts and the ability of the valve-based oil pressure system to reliably support high RPM's. My hunch is that manufacturers are attracted to this technology as much for fuel economy and emissions reductions as they are for performance gains.

sounds about right Steve..and I'm not sure if the ZX14 shaft drive model bike design is a ON or OFF affair in principal?..thats how many are setup

end of the day its all a compromise to suit an application..to get the best compromise for road use, there has to be much merit in a varaible cam and trumpet setup....just like ignition timing
« Last Edit: October 30, 2007, 05:51:31 PM by gazza414 »
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Offline mike46

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Re: ZX14 Cam design
« Reply #9 on: October 31, 2007, 08:13:35 AM »
Quote from: Steve S on October 30, 2007, 02:52:50 PM
The general technology is somewhat old and I have counted 35 or so variations...............but it is surely on its way. With respect to Kawasaki technology, I would be concerned about the weight of the system, design guidelines and goals, system compatibility with high CR pistons and aftermarket camshafts and the ability of the valve-based oil pressure system to reliably support high RPM's. My hunch is that manufacturers are attracted to this technology as much for fuel economy and emissions reductions as they are for performance gains.
I believe you have hit the nail on the head. Controlling overlap is key to both those issues.
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Offline dakinebusa

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Re: ZX14 Cam design
« Reply #10 on: October 31, 2007, 08:27:30 AM »
The Kaw system uses a hydraulically controlled rotary vane device in the cam sprocket to give continuously variable timing depending on the oil pressure fed to it.
This allows change in cam centerline but not any effect on duration.
I don't think any high tech motors like F1 engines use any type of VVT but with the milage restrictions now popular in racing I expect more development in VVT for racing engines.
Nobody could match Duc's combination of power and fuel economy in moto GP this year thanks to the valve accelleration rates their desmo system allows.
I imageine Honda and others will look at VVT in an effort to match the Desmosedici advantage.
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Offline Steve S

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Re: ZX14 Cam design
« Reply #11 on: October 31, 2007, 10:04:26 AM »
Quote from: mike46 on October 31, 2007, 08:13:35 AM
Quote from: Steve S on October 30, 2007, 02:52:50 PM
The general technology is somewhat old and I have counted 35 or so variations...............but it is surely on its way. With respect to Kawasaki technology, I would be concerned about the weight of the system, design guidelines and goals, system compatibility with high CR pistons and aftermarket camshafts and the ability of the valve-based oil pressure system to reliably support high RPM's. My hunch is that manufacturers are attracted to this technology as much for fuel economy and emissions reductions as they are for performance gains.
I believe you have hit the nail on the head. Controlling overlap is key to both those issues.

I think we both hit the nail on the head because at low RPM's Kawasaki retards intake valve timing to reduce overlap to reduce overscavenge and improve idle qualites. Thereafter, it is probably advanced and then retarded as RPM's are increased.
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Offline mike46

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Re: ZX14 Cam design
« Reply #12 on: October 31, 2007, 08:43:27 PM »
[.
Nobody could match Duc's combination of power and fuel economy in moto GP this year thanks to the valve accelleration rates their desmo system allows.

[/quote] And Ducati should send a monthly check to Mercedes for that too.... :?
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