stock bore with .415/.395

[midnight black man]

well...i'm intending to build a very powrfull stock bore busa...i'm hoping for approximately 200 on the wheel...now i have 188 with 12.8 cr(je 12.3 and block - head milled) ,tiforce sumo and yosh intake and stock intake on exhaust...

i've ported the head accordingly to withstand big cams,pushed the valve guides 1.3mm to have the adequate clearance for the cams and i'm going to buy heavy duty studs,webs .415/.395,cometic 0.46mm to achive 13.2-13.3 and  valve springs...deck height will be 1.1mm with the gasket...already have the high volume oil pump gear from ape...

my question is this...what kind of springs should i use,meaning how many lbs for that application...

[SKILLZ]

We have really similar setups... I am stock bore also, and I have a set of the 395/378 cams I am going to install in a few weeks. I made 185.7 rwhp and 102.4 TQ with the dual intake setup, and am running the Sumo as well . This was on 93 pump gas. Kind of curious myself of how much the cams are going to pick my setup up. I got a set of hd springs in mine now, I believe they are 60lb.

[midnight black man]

 carpenter's?

[SKILLZ]

Nope i ported the head myself.

[Steve S]

well...i'm intending to build a very powrfull stock bore busa...i'm hoping for approximately 200 on the wheel...now i have 188 with 12.8 cr(je 12.3 and block - head milled) ,tiforce sumo and yosh intake and stock intake on exhaust...

i've ported the head accordingly to withstand big cams,pushed the valve guides 1.3mm to have the adequate clearance for the cams and i'm going to buy heavy duty studs,webs .415/.395,cometic 0.18 to achive 13.2-13.3 and  valve springs...deck height will be 0.41 with the gasket...already have the high volume oil pump gear from ape...

my question is this...what kind of springs should i use,meaning how many lbs for that application...

The 62# Carpenter or 65# APE should do the job. Separately, would you mind elaborating upon the porting you did to accomodate the larger cams?

[midnight black man]

larger cross sectional areas...i was at 83% and went to 90% by flatening the floors a bit more and smoothening the turns on seilings...the bigger lift at the same duration would make speed very high due to the faster opening of the valve so i went with more volume to slow it down and keep relatively same speeds as before...i don't have any flow numbers to give you...i never flow my heads,especially after having seen big numbers on the bench resulting in poor numbers on the street...

skillz...i meant carpenter springs...

[Quasar]

well...i'm intending to build a very powrfull stock bore busa...i'm hoping for approximately 200 on the wheel...now i have 188 with 12.8 cr(je 12.3 and block - head milled) ,tiforce sumo and yosh intake and stock intake on exhaust...

i've ported the head accordingly to withstand big cams,pushed the valve guides 1.3mm to have the adequate clearance for the cams and i'm going to buy heavy duty studs,webs .415/.395,cometic 0.18 to achive 13.2-13.3 and  valve springs...deck height will be 0.41 with the gasket...already have the high volume oil pump gear from ape...

my question is this...what kind of springs should i use,meaning how many lbs for that application...

If you're going to install large cams, make them worth your money by also installing some higher compression stock bore pistons. Since you've pulled the head, it's a fairly simple matter to pop in some higher compression stock bore pistons to achieve some extra punch from idle through redline.

I've been using higher compression stock bore pistons for many years now with my Web .378"/.330" cams and I love the way it wakes up the engine. Even after all these years, it still puts a shit eatin' grin on my mug. You'd be surprised by the improvement made by 13:1 compression at the stock bore.

[midnight black man]

quasar...i already have 12.3 je pistons...i have the head milled 0.6mm and the block 0.22mm(it was warped)..a total of 0.28mm which after my calculations has given me 12.9 cr... i intend to use 0.46mm cometic head gasket so i believe i'll be near 13.2-13.3...i know that my p/v clearance will be less by 0.6 mm but the je pockets are 0.7mm deeper than the  stock ones...with high lobe centers in the area of 108 i believe that my clearance will be adequate...

i know that a better solution would be the 13.5 cr je but bare with me...i only have 1000km on these ones...

[Nosgsx1300]

quasar...i already have 12.3 je pistons...i have the head milled 0.6mm and the block 2.2mm(it was warped)..a total of 2.8mm which after my calculations has given me 12.9 cr... i intend to use 0.18 cometic head gasket so i believe i'll be near 13.2-13.3...i know that my p/v clearance will be less by 0.6 mm but the je pockets are 0.7 deeper than the  stock ones...with high lobe centers in the area of 108 i believe that my clearance will be adequate...

i know that a better solution would be the 13.5 cr je but bare with me...i only have 1000km on these ones...

.18mm headgasket?
I would worry about the piston touching the head at high revs
casue the piston will rock in the bores a bit

[gnd111]

.018 Cometic is what he means...

[gazza414]

quasar...i already have 12.3 je pistons...i have the head milled 0.6mm and the block 2.2mm(it was warped)..a total of 2.8mm which after my calculations has given me 12.9 cr... i intend to use 0.18 cometic head gasket so i believe i'll be near 13.2-13.3...i know that my p/v clearance will be less by 0.6 mm but the je pockets are 0.7 deeper than the  stock ones...with high lobe centers in the area of 108 i believe that my clearance will be adequate...

i know that a better solution would be the 13.5 cr je but bare with me...i only have 1000km on these ones...

Just doesnt sound right 2.2mm off the block....you know that's 88thou?...the numbers dont add up unless you have a spacer under the block to compensate?

[gnd111]

He probably means .022...  He does not seem good with math...   

[Streaker00]

He probably means .022...  He does not seem good with math...   

[midnight black man]

He probably means .022...  He does not seem good with math...   

correct...0.22mm...when the math teacher talked about numbers i had my mind on tight girl's asses...

cut me some slack here...i read here and everything is in inches while here in europe we calculate in mm...

so...from now on only mm...(edited all the above) 

[Nosgsx1300]

I wouls still worry that a .018 inch headgasket is still really thin

I still would worry about that being too close

[midnight black man]

I wouls still worry that a .018 inch headgasket is still really thin

I still would worry about that being too close

my deck height with that gasket will be 1.1mm...i believe its safe...

[Nosgsx1300]

1.1mm is about .044 should be fine

[crazybill]

stock bore/stroke motor i just did with the same pistons , much smaller cams than you mentioned and one of my heads .

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v174/crazybill1397/ADoddstockboremtr.jpg

(blue line was a 29 jet dry , obviously)

BTW , THIS WAS ON SPEEDWAY 93 OCTANE PUMP GAS !

[Yngve]

Thomas Johansson did this in 2001:


Red one is Stock bore, stock stroke Hayabusa.

The blue are 1400cc....

Edit because of wrong name ......

[Nosgsx1300]

AH
Stock "bore"
Not stock stroke

[Steve S]

Patrick Johansson did this in 2001:


Yngve, was this with an epoxied head?

[Yngve]

I really don`t know but I guess it was.

It also had one of his own Sidewinder 4-1 exhaust systems.

http://www.atomracing.se/

Take a look at the W-9 engine he made....

And his name was THOMAS Johansson....

[crazybill]

5 hp from an extra 100cc ? sup with that ?

red and blue line look like the same motor... sure you dont mean the green line is stock bore/stroke ?

[Yngve]

The green line is an all stock engine ( and that will tell you a little about if the dyno is happy or not...  a little happy maybye ).

And yes it looks like only 5hp from 100 cc but I don't know if its 10-1 or 14-1 the 1400.   This was way back and the first time I presented this graph Here on Suzukihayabusa everybody didn't believe it.   Nowadays its almost common with over 200+ rwhp from a Hayabusa.

[gazza414]

not stock bore , std stroke running pump

[midnight black man]

bill... i have 185.4 on a superflow dyno(95 ron gas) which by many is considered very strict...stock,it produced 152 on the same dyno...i'll post the graphs tonight...

i took this bike and another one i built to a dyno shoot out and this one produced 194.7...the dyno was a dynojet 250 one...unfortunately i don't have the graph of this one...the guy just put the results on a widescreen after each dyno and didn't give us any sheets at the end...

yngve...the graph from thomas indicates extremely high intake lobe(the first dip around 7-8 thou) and probably highly modifies air box( no air filter?) with very short stacks...(the second dip)...do you have any further information on how the bike was set up?

[Yngve]

not stock bore , std stroke running pump

I have no idea about what kind of fuel he used but I guess it wasn't that special. Living in Northerner Sweden as he does aren't helping in getting the latest fuel....

[DarkFalcon]

yngve...the graph from thomas indicates extremely high intake lobe(the first dip around 7-8 thou) and probably highly modifies air box( no air filter?) with very short stacks...(the second dip)...do you have any further information on how the bike was set up?

MBM, those dips precede spikes..........and my hunch is that the first spike is related to the opening of the intake valve and the subsequent wave activity while the second dip/spike is related resonation of the intake tract. In both cases, shortening the stacks will tend to raise the tuning RPM; the first effect is also very sensitive to intake camshaft duration. You also have a PM.

[midnight black man]

yngve...the graph from thomas indicates extremely high intake lobe(the first dip around 7-8 thou) and probably highly modifies air box( no air filter?) with very short stacks...(the second dip)...do you have any further information on how the bike was set up?

MBM, those dips precede spikes..........and my hunch is that the first spike is related to the opening of the intake valve and the subsequent wave activity while the second dip/spike is related resonation of the intake tract. In both cases, shortening the stacks will tend to raise the tuning RPM; the first effect is also very sensitive to intake camshaft duration. You also have a PM.

the graph below is the last dyno i did( with the head gasket blown)...the dip between 7-9 occured by switching to all short stacks...

in addition to what you've written i want to add the importance of the combination of the exhaust reflective waves with the ones from the intake...combining those is a tough one...

[mike46]

yngve...the graph from thomas indicates extremely high intake lobe(the first dip around 7-8 thou) and probably highly modifies air box( no air filter?) with very short stacks...(the second dip)...do you have any further information on how the bike was set up?

MBM, those dips precede spikes..........and my hunch is that the first spike is related to the opening of the intake valve and the subsequent wave activity while the second dip/spike is related resonation of the intake tract. In both cases, shortening the stacks will tend to raise the tuning RPM; the first effect is also very sensitive to intake camshaft duration. You also have a PM.

the graph below is the last dyno i did( with the head gasket blown)...the dip between 7-9 occured by switching to all short stacks...

in addition to what you've written i want to add the importance of the combination of the exhaust reflective waves with the ones from the intake...combining those is a tough one...

You thnk?

[DarkFalcon]

  Agreed. Now, how to do it is well, er, uhh, ummm a different story. In my eyes, a big part of the problem is understanding how the exhaust waves behave and at what speed they travel; it is known that primary steps affect timing reflection and that the waves travel at the speed of sound, but this varies with temperature. Oh well 

[GeorgeC]

Looks like you could make good use of an extended ECU, or Dynojet ignition module that would let you raise the rev limiter a few hundred RPM...  That HP is still climbing pretty good when it was shut off.

[midnight black man]

Looks like you could make good use of an extended ECU, or Dynojet ignition module that would let you raise the rev limiter a few hundred RPM...  That HP is still climbing pretty good when it was shut off.

my thoughts exactly GeorgeC...the only problem is that i don't know if dynojet will give me the codes to unlock the ignition module for the extra 500 rpm provided...the application they have for that matter regards us customers...

something irrelevant...i'm going with 0.395/0.378 to make things easy on my valvetrain...
should i go with hardwelds or billets? web has both...i don't have any experiance with this kind of cams due to the fact that i've always used yoshimura on my bikes...

[SKILLZ]

Looks like you could make good use of an extended ECU, or Dynojet ignition module that would let you raise the rev limiter a few hundred RPM...  That HP is still climbing pretty good when it was shut off.

my thoughts exactly GeorgeC...the only problem is that i don't know if dynojet will give me the codes to unlock the ignition module for the extra 500 rpm provided...the application they have for that matter regards us customers...

something irrelevant...i'm going with 0.395/0.378 to make things easy on my valvetrain...
should i go with hardwelds or billets? web has both...i don't have any experiance with this kind of cams due to the fact that i've always used yoshimura on my bikes...

So you have decided to go with these now??  Well if you get yours in before mine, keep me updated on how well they do.....  Should be interesting.... Also let me know on the ignition module, I think I could use the extra rpm also.

[midnight black man]

Looks like you could make good use of an extended ECU, or Dynojet ignition module that would let you raise the rev limiter a few hundred RPM...  That HP is still climbing pretty good when it was shut off.

my thoughts exactly GeorgeC...the only problem is that i don't know if dynojet will give me the codes to unlock the ignition module for the extra 500 rpm provided...the application they have for that matter regards us customers...

something irrelevant...i'm going with 0.395/0.378 to make things easy on my valvetrain...
should i go with hardwelds or billets? web has both...i don't have any experiance with this kind of cams due to the fact that i've always used yoshimura on my bikes...

So you have decided to go with these now??  Well if you get yours in before mine, keep me updated on how well they do.....  Should be interesting.... Also let me know on the ignition module, I think I could use the extra rpm also.

will do so...

[gnd111]

Something about your DJ talk is off.  They never hassle any R1 or FZ1 guys about the rev-extend.  They just plug it in and go...

[JDookie]

I completed and faxed the required form to DJ for the rev extend program multiple times and haven't heard a peep fom them. After three months, I just gave up.

[gnd111]

I completed and faxed the required form to DJ for the rev extend program multiple times and haven't heard a peep fom them. After three months, I just gave up.

I mean they just buy the ignition box and plug it in - automatic rev-extend...

[JDookie]

I completed and faxed the required form to DJ for the rev extend program multiple times and haven't heard a peep fom them. After three months, I just gave up.

I mean they just buy the ignition box and plug it in - automatic rev-extend...

I'm a little confused. I thought you needed to request a code to unlock the extra 500 rpm, which is what I have been requesting from them, and have to hear about. I have both, the PC and the IM.

[GeorgeC]

I completed and faxed the required form to DJ for the rev extend program multiple times and haven't heard a peep fom them. After three months, I just gave up.

I mean they just buy the ignition box and plug it in - automatic rev-extend...

No, it's not an automatic rev-extend...  You have to fill out a form and send it to DynoJet. 

From DynoJet's website:
Rev X-Tend
On select models of bikes our Rev Xtend feature is available when using the Ignition Module. Rev Xtend makes it possible to increase the RPM limit from the factory setting. This feature is intended to be used on engines that have been modified to allow the increased RPM limit.

This feature can only be enabled on the following models:
04-05 Suzuki   GSXR600 04-07 Kawasaki   Z750 
04-05 Suzuki   GSXR750  03-07 Kawasaki   Z1000   
03-07 Suzuki   SV-650  04-07 Kawasaki   ZX10R   
03-07 Suzuki   SV-1000  00-05 Kawasaki   ZX12R 
01-04 Suzuki   GSXR1000  2003  Kawasaki   ZX6RR   
02-06 Suzuki   GSX1300R  02-07 Yamaha    R1 
06-08 Kawasaki ZX14 06-07 Yamaha    FZ1 
2008  Kawasaki KFX450 07-08 Yamaha  XV1300 
06-07 Kawasaki EX650R 02-08 Yamaha   Warrior 
04-07 Kawasaki VN2000 00-01 Honda    CBR929 
2003  Kawasaki   ZX6RR  02-03 Honda    CBR954 
03-04 Kawasaki   ZX6R  01-06 Honda    F4i   
   02-08 Honda  VTX1800   
 Harley Davidson Rev X-Tend/Start Fuel >> 

In order to activate this feature you must first download, fill out, and sign the waiver below. Once completed it needs to be faxed to Dynojet Research Inc. at 702 399-1431.

[gnd111]

Gotcha - never hear that discussed over there...