LOW power, given my jetting ?

[buckyworld]

hey all,

well, right up front, i don't have a hay bus.  i'll wait for the chuckling to subside...thanks.

2003 Honda 919...cbr900-based motor, though with f.i., detuned like most nakeds, and  "old school" horizontal intake runners.  in other words, there was no "belly" to the intake port for me to tap and install nozzles.  so i had to install my nozzles (wet) in the throttle bodies with a fitting, just under the throttle plates.  ie, it's a little bit more of a trip for the juice to get into the firehouse...combustion chamber.  if that matters...

as far as i can tell, i may have the only wet nitrous honda 919 in the world, so there's no experience within my "peeps" for this.  that's why i am here now, hat in hand, on a busa forum.

before nitrous, my bike ran a 10.73 @ 123.  my best with nitrous is 10.46 @ 134.  11 mph tells me i'm making SOME power, but not the 68 shot i'm jetted for:  .021 nitrous, .024 fuel as i recall.

i have not yet dynoed, or run my bike with air/fuel measurement.  but i HAVE made dozens and dozens of passes with no damage ( i reckon i'm not lean) and i've not fouled or soaked plugs (i'm not WAY rich).   i have played with auxiliary fuel pressures from 3 psi to 7 psi with surprisingly little difference so i've been running higher pressures/richer to be safe.  the bike seems to "carburet" well on the juice...smooth power,  a nice kick compared to running off the bottle.  last year i ran .020 nos and .021 fuel with very little difference in performance/trap speed compared to .021nos/.024 fuel.

i am eager to hear ideas from anyone who has had consistant performance on the bottle, but consistantly disappointing.  i'm sure i'm forgetting to mention some things, so please: let me have it.  where's my 140-145 mph trap speed?  my best 60' times have unfortunately been about 1.63, and for me to get a 10.73 @ 123 from a 105 rwhp bike OFF the juice, i reckon the fault's not NECESSARILY the rider. 

is it POSSIBLE that i can only cram so much nos into my (factory) restrictively ported motor? 

ideas?  criticisms?  hell, even if you just want to say something negative about my mother, that's fine too.  this bike needs to drag me into the nines next year, or die tryin'.  i'm comin' humble here: let me have it.

[E-RACER]

bottle psi?

make sure the bottle is postioned right??

sounds like the path of the nitrous and fuel may be the problem..

[FJman]

No help here at all.

But damn!  10.7's at only 123?  I'm jealous

[buckyworld]

i've got a bottle heater (in Alaska...good thing) and i've tried pressure all over.  settled on 900-1,000 most days.  the bottle is in a trac dynamics swingarm (8" ) in their bracket.  fairly vertical, valve facing up.  presumably, if i didn't have a siphon tube i wouldn't get 11 mph even after a couple of passes on a 2# bottle.

eracer: path how?  distance too great?  in contemplating that, i think that most car systems have the nos and the fuel travelling much greater distances, don't they?

fjman:  jealous of what part of that?  quick for the apparent power i'm making off the bottle?  we've got good dense air here, and The Tinman launches pretty well for what he is.

[buckyworld]

and just so you know, i'm not arguing with anyone's questions or ideas.  i'm very grateful of ALL input. it's just that i've had most of the arguments in my own head, and so i want to clarify and ask follow up questions to see how you respond.  to see if you shed some light, even if accidentally.

more system info:  using a schnitz throttle position/rpm window switch, NX pump and solenoids, NOS nozzles.

i've tried several different plugs. due to a ground electrode of an NGK falling off into a 5 hour old $3,500 jetski motor a few years ago, i'm sortof reluctant to use their products.  especially because they wouldn't even contemplate doing anything for me over it.
so i've mostly run ND, 3 heat ranges colder but have also tried a champion equivalent (i know, i know...but i'm DESPERATE !) (my nitrous supplier asked, "what are you drag racing,  a lawn mower?") .  i've not retarded timing, other than loosening the ignition rotor bolt and "indexing" the rotor to as retarded a position as manufacturing tolerances allow, and retightening.  MAYBE i've pulled a degree or two out?  maybe none.  i'm trying to have dynojet build me a custom ignition box so i can control my timing with my pcIII.  i've used vp racefuel, blended VP with pump gas at various octane blends, and now Torco Accelerator at different octane blends as well.  slight differences in performance with the different spark plugs and fuel blends, but within about a .1 second and 1 mph difference is all.

thanks for any and all input/dialog

[firemanjim]

A couple of things-- are you gapping your plugs down? And I have had good luck with Champion racing plugs with recessed tips--look here for chart
http://www.championsparkplugs.com/search_char.asp?seenWarning=1&manufacturerID=2
Definitely get it on a dyno to see what your air/fuel is doing, best bet for safety and HP.
Do you have a fuel pressure safety switch on your system,bad things can happen if you loose fuel pressure--ask me how I know?
Sounds like you are on the right track.

[buckyworld]

i do have a safety switch installed.  thoughts of lubricating my rear tire @ 140mph formed the initial planning in my work.  thanks for the champ plug chart.  i have a set in right now, though i haven't put the fire to them on the track.  our "last chance" day was rained out.  yes, i gap down to somewhere in the .025 range. 

my other thought was that a) i'm not spraying in first and b) the lag time through the window switch on each shift is probably costing me a half second or more in e.t.  i think when i rig a quickshift for it next year and spray through the shifts i may get my 9.99.

i guess i will dyno it, but again, i've tried what i fully believe should be lean and rich and everything in between and i still can't get the trap speed that my jet sizes tell me i should.  i was hoping that 1 out of 50 nitrous installs worked WELL, but not STRONG and that there was a common "oh, that?  yeah, you gotta..." for my predicament. 

i've read everything on this site that i can find, and because it has more activity and more members than most sites, i was hoping that someone might provide me an "ah-HAH!" moment.  like i said, i think i may be the only wet nitrous Honda 919/Hornet in the world, so there's no body of information out there for me.  i think there's ONE turbo in Denmark also.  as far as i know, and i've asked around a LOT, i have the world's quickest 919.  which is really like saying i have the world's quickest motorhome.  when you modify something that nobody else modifies, it's easy to be quickest.

thanks all, and i'm going to continue checking back here, remaining cautiously optimistic.  a guy i race with has a pretty nice turbo 'busa (license plate, "BOOSTA") he may sell me, but i'm kindof fond of my current bike.  nostalgia regarding my late dad and such factor in to it.

[WAR MACHINE 1300]

DO YOU HAVE PICS OF YOUR NOZZLE PLACEMENT  THAT  MIGHT  BE AN ISSUE

[buckyworld]

hopefully, one of these will work. i'm a noob at pic hosting sites

http://picasaweb.google.com/buckakke/BikeStuff

[WAR MACHINE 1300]

PLACEMENT LOOKS RIGHT  TAKE THE NOZZLES  OUT OF  THE TBSAND  CHECK SPRAY PATTERN ON A  PEICE OF CARDBOARD  THATLL TELL YOU IF  ALL 4 NOZZLES ARE SPRAYING  CLOSE TO THE SAME PATTERN IF IT ISNT  CHECK FOR BAD  NOZZLES AND OR TRASH IN THE NITROUS FILTER ON THE SOLENOID ALSO DOUBLE CHECK THE  NUMBERS ON THE  JETS   YEAH  I  KNOW  BUT SOMETIMES YOU DONT SEE THE  NUMBER  YOU THINK YOU SEE  LOL HOPE  THAT  HELPS

[buckyworld]

thanks war machine.  i'm POSITIVE about the jets: checked them SEVERAL times: 21nos 24 fuel across the board.  i'll check the rest.  was just hoping that someone would have had a similar problem in the past, even given my choice of a different bike than most of you all.  i sure hope Dusty at Dynojet can find an ignition module that'll work on my bike so i can rig a quickshift and spray through my shifts, if nothing else.

[BATTMAN]

Where are you at in Alaska?  Are you in Wasilla? The only dyno in Alaska is in Anchorage at the House of Harley's.  Most of them dont know anything about sport bikes, but there's a guy there named Greg.  He knows his stuff.  He dynoed my bike and mapped it before.

[buckyworld]

i would likely borrow a portable wide band exhaust sniffer before i'd dyno.  i tried to arrange that with my nitrous supplier to no avail this year.  this is a one of a kind nitrous system, and as many good things as i've heard about greg at h.o.h. , i'm pretty controlling and protective and i don't want someone grenading my bike on the dyno or playing too far off my baselines.   unlike a 'busa, no one has experience tuning a setup like mine (as far as i can find on the net or anywhere else) so they're no better off than i am in some regards.

also, any jetting changes to the nitrous system require removing the throttle bodies, airbox, etc.  it ain't quick and it ain't easy.  so no dyno operator is going to take the time to try different jets in my nozzles during a typical dyno session.

i'm in anchorage, and why didn't we see your bus at the strip this year?  i would have loved to take your money !

[Nosgsx1300]

stock wheelbase?
when are you hitting the button?

[BATTMAN]

I was in Fairbanks.  Me and a friend of mine would go there all the time.  He had a green ZX-9 with alot of nitrous.  I was in Iraq for the last 2 track seasons and then this year I moved to PA.

[Chuck Wilburn]

Sounds like he's getting on the button late.  If you're not on it at the bottom of 2nd gear at the latest you're not going to pick up much et.

[FJman]

fjman:  jealous of what part of that?  quick for the apparent power i'm making off the bottle?  we've got good dense air here, and The Tinman launches pretty well for what he is.

10.7's at only 123 mean you're making poor power (110hp tops, I'd expect) but you're REALLY lighting the first half of the track on fire.  I'm trapping similar numbers and lucky to be .2 slower!

I think you're right, you're really down on power for the jetting you're at.  What are you seeing on motor?  I think you can kinda guess at the power gains if you look at the back half gains between motor and bottle.  I pick up 21-22mph with similar numbers as you, with perhaps 110hp at the wheel, if that gives you a starting point (101ish at half track, 122 at the line).

I almost wonder if you're not rich on spray, but it'll take the plugs to tell the tale there.  Once you look at bottle pressure, if you're going by recommended settings, I think you're going to find yourself fat.  It might very well be worth putting out $250 for some dyno time, just to find out for certain.

[buckyworld]

to address several questions at once, and to clarify earlier statements of mine:

10.73 @ 123 MOTOR
11.43 @ 134 SPRAYING

i spray in the bottom of 2nd gear, but it is WELL into the meat of 2nd by the time it fully hits

8"-over TRAC custom arm

with my tps/rpm window switch, the system shuts off during shifts.  there's a slight lag in activation after each shift.  i BELIEVE at least a half a second's worth cumulatively.   i think i REALLY need to find a way to make a dynojet quickshift work so i can spray in 1st and continuously through the quarter mile.

[FJman]

You're going 11mph faster and seven tenth's SLOWER on spray?  Eh?!

Edit, sorry, looked up and saw you said 10.4's in your original post.  Makes more sense, surely.

If you were getting the full boost from a 60ish shot on a 100hp bike, it should feel like getting rear ended by a semi when it comes in.  Part of the problem, you're right, is that you're not using it for the duration of the run.

Have you tried smaller jetting?  Say a .016 or so?  I'd guess that it'd provide the same benefit as your .021's, assuming it's working.  I know that on at least some bikes, they misfire if the load is too high, and good coils/close gaps are required to light the mixture at all.

[buckyworld]

i had contemplated smaller jets.  it's a shame that my system requires SO much work to change jets, and frankly, i don't feel my system is rugged enough to allow too many jet changes before something gets broken...too much fiddly plastic crap gets r&r'ed in the process for me to feel comfy round-tripping it all several times per year.  so i jetted it on the fat side this year, and play with fuel pressure to trim.

this year will entail SEVERAL different types of spark plugs, and i am looking into hotter coils as well. 

i think the quickshift will get me into the high nines, and that perhaps igniition issues may get me around mid-nines.  the nitrous delay during each shift feels like an eternity.  the new cbr1000 has a factory quick shift, so i may take a peek at how they do it too.  naturally, with a bike as unpopular as the Honda 919 (AND discontinued for 2008), there isn't a whole lot of "plug and play" out there.  i've had to fight for nearly everything i've got.  i'm jealous of you 'Busers, not that some of you haven't been through the school of hard knocks.

rather than "rear ended by a semi" i would say i currently get what feels like a two-stroker coming on the pipe.  close, but not quite a semi-truck hit.

[buckyworld]

oh yeah, and DUH !  10.43 spraying.

this damn state job is distracting me from the important stuff in life !

[Nosgsx1300]

I had my best ET reduction with the .018/.022 jets
I would hit the button in the top of first knowiing that when I did the front would start to climb and when it hit a certain point I would let go of the nitrous button and the front would float back down touching right as I punched the 1-2 shift then I would get back into it in second

bigger jets even with a 2 dial progressive was harder to ride

[buckyworld]

just keep in mind that IF my nos was PERFECT, i'd be making about the same power as a stock 'bus with a pcIII, or just a few ponies short of an '08 stocker.  i ran .020/.021 last year.  there are other variables, but i did run a TAD quicker this year with .021/.024. 

with my 8-over TRAC arm, airing out the front wheel is NOT an issue.  a slight wiggle at MOST.

i intend to spray in 1st with a quickshift next year, and stay on the button through at least 5th gear.

and again, maybe different coils and spark plugs.

what kind of times did you have with the 18/22's, Nosgsx? 

[FJman]

I don't think smaller jets are going to make you quicker (they might, though), just that they sound about right vs how much gain you're getting.  Sounds like the bike isn't actually using all of the nitrous, not burning well or something.

Of course if you go to a smaller set and notice a significant reduction in MPH, that would tell you that the bigger ones ARE making more power, just that they aren't being used enough (too much time off bottle during shifts, etc).

[Nosgsx1300]

I suck bad launching
I was running 9.4's on motor at 151-154mph
I was going 8.9's  with that jetting at 162-164mph

Are you running a progressive?
What is the bike/rider weigh?
there is a formula to give you roughly a good idea of how much gain you are getting
234/weight*&%&^%&5  I forget it
there is also a vaugly similar formule for e/t

my bikes from dynoed nukmbers
the et/weight=hp formula comes out way low it is effected by rider a lot
MPH,weight=hp formula comes out closer but still low

and no I don't think it is possible to cram too much nitrous into a motor
Something would break well before that
are you SURE you are getting LIQUID nitrous to the foggers?