Counter-steering vs. Trail braking

[FloydV]

I read this in a Delta Sky magazine over the holidays.  They talk about the Freddie Spencer High Performance Riding School.  According to the article he is a "legend," and he has tutored pros like Nicky Hayden.

Here I will start to quote the article, putting in only the stuff that seems relevant:

...Most beginning courses teach a technique called counter steering. In order to turn right for instance, the rider pushes forward slightly on the right handle bar, which causes the bike to lean to the right and turn in that direction. This approach is effective, and most riders have used it as long as they have been riding. The downside of the technique, literally, is that the front wheel is pointing slightly away from the direction of the turn. If the rider accelerates too abruptly or tries to brake too quickly, the wheel can lose grip (what riders call "washing out") and cause a fall.

Spencer proposes a radical change in thinking: "I don't even want to hear the term 'counter steering." Instead he makes the case for turning a motorcycle  using only body position and a braking technique called "trail braking," a continual but diminishing pressure on the front brake well into the turn.

Quoting again:

...During this exercise, I discover that as I move my head a couple of inches lower, the radius of the turns tightens so much that I overrun the apexes. I am actually turning the bike with my head, with almost no pressure at all on the handlebars.

So what is this trail braking? Should I try and find out, and dump counter steering?

I'll post the same topic on SH.org, since I'm really curious, and the article doesn't give much detail.

[ATC'er]

Freddie Spencer definitely knows his shit, but I don't see his "track" technique being of much use on public roads.  I'm not gonna kid myself.  If I were riding aggressively enough to even try trail braking to make the bike steer around a corner, it's gonna eventually bite me in the ass.  I'll stick to the counter steering.

[EtrnlSoldier]

I've been to Freddie's School.  His techniques are completely suited for street riding.  That's part of the "gist" of the class. 

I alternate between trail braking/body steering and countersteering depending on what kind of riding I'm doing.  If I'm canyon carving on familiar terrain, I use Freddie's technique.  If I'm just loafing around, I am likely countersteering.  But, if I get into trouble, without thinking, I change to Freddie's technique.  They drill you like the military in his school so that the techniques are second nature.  Freddie's technique isn't just about going fast.  It's about going fast safely.  He'll teach you how to stay up and correct errors in mid-turn (speed too fast for turn, decreasing turn radius, etc), and how to avoid or ride through road hazards that appear suddenly, such as water, gravel, etc, without going down.  He's already saved my bacon on quite a few occasions.  His techniques also help you get the most out of any given lean angle, and the busas run out of lean angle quick.  Hell, his techniques also work on my cruiser (VTX1800C).  This is going to sound hokey but, I actually got away from someone on a 600cc sportbike in the canyons recently, on the cruiser!  Yes yes I know, had it been a skilled rider on the 600 the VTX wouldn't have had a chance.  It is fun to surprise folks that think that they can't be beat on whatever they're riding because of what they heard on the internet or in a sportbike mag.  It's not the bike, it's them that needs improvement.  That is another of the tenets of Freddie's training.  As part of his training you'll be a passenger on the back of his VFR800 whiles he's knee dragging and passing other students in the class who are on 600s (yes, I've ridden bitch with Freddie Spencer...). 

If you ever have the time/money to attend his training, you're really missing out if you don't.  It's not the same as other track schools. 

[EtrnlSoldier]

Also, reading the first post, I see that I didn't answer the question.  Trail braking is using the front brake only to trail into turns, allowing you to make adjustments mid-turn, via smooth throttle and brake movements, without upsetting the motorcycle's chassis.  Bike going too far inside of the turn?  Add throttle.  Heading toward the outside of the turn?  Slight touch on the front brake.  Smooth transition is key.  Body positioning is also paramount.  One butt cheek off seat.  Inside knee pointing out.  Outside knee gripping the tank.  Chest down, head low to inside.  The inside knee acts like an antenna to gauge your lean angle, and as a kickstand to bump you back up if you exceed maximum lean angle or traction (had this happen a few times and didn't go down..thanks Freddie!). 

Should you dump countersteering completely?  Nope.  It's great for just casually cruising around. 

[VegasDude]

I went to Freddies course as well. First class all the way. Has changed my riding considerably. Another thing Freddie stresses with Trailbraking is by using your front brake in the corners, your ready for any problem that may arise and be able to slow/steer the motorcyle quickly and safely if you need to. A lot people think you can't use front brakes in a corner, you can, you should. Easy on easy off. Freddie takes every student for a ride around the course. He has you place your hands on the gas tank to feel his braking inputs. I can't speak enough on how well this school is run. Every instructor is polite and professional. They kinda let you run at your own pace, and they also do two video tape of two sessions, one before you have their training and one after. Then they send you the dvd. I will go again. Also by the end of day two your using your whole body to control the bike. But like the above poster said, you can and should use these techniques on the street, you still will use countersteering when you are riding relaxed, when you want to take the pace up, then use the tools you were taught in class.

[keef95]

So what is this trail braking? Should I try and find out, and dump counter steering?

I've been to Spencer's school (There's nothing better you'll EVER do for your riding) and read the article in a Sky West mag and I think some of his comments were taken out of context...

Freddie DOES teach counter steering and he DOES teach trail braking.  The two are not exclusive and are used as "tools" in the tool box.  No matter what anyone else says, a bike isn't just going to magically tip in to a corner while you're going fast with only body English nor is there any way to make it flop from full lean to full lean without using it and using it agressively.  There may be techniques that will make you do it without realizing you're doing it but whether you realize you're counter steering or not, you're counter steering.

The other component you mentioned is "trail braking" which, in the context of Spener's school might better be called "trailing off the braking".  The philosiphy is simple:  Since you aren't going to be at full lean until the apex of the corner, there is no reason to have all your braking done until you reach that point.  Rather than braking hard to get the bike to a certain speed then maintaining that speed through the corner, it is more effective (faster) to brake later and as you're tipping in, decrease brake pressure as lean angle increases.  The trick is to acheive maximum lean as your braking hits zero and "maintinance throttle" is applied.  Then as lean angle starts to decrease then acceleration (throttle) can be applied.

If you're really serious about dialing up your performance on the street or track, go to a school or at least get the book, "Sport Riding Techniques" by Nick Ienatsch.  This guy is Freddie's lead instructor and this book is incredibly valuable as a reference guide.

In this picture, my knee touches down at the same time my brake pressure comes to zero...At this point my fingers are just resting on the lever.

[FloydV]

Thanks guys!

I read the article, and I just had to guess at what they might be talking about.  "Trailing off the brake," is a lot more enlightening.  From what you are saying, I might experiment some to see what effect it has. 

I get your point about not doing all my braking before I enter a turn.  Slowing down less abruptly, and then letting off the front brake as I start to lean hard--I believe that is your point.  The article didn't say anything about counter-steering being wrong or incompatible.  It just didn't say a lot more, and I was hoping you could clear the topic up for me. 

Oh yeah, where is Spencer's school?  Might be worth a flight there.  The article said that bikes and gear were available for the course.

[Ksana]

Schwantz is the closest we have here. Not sure where Spencer is.
But either one will give you vast amounts of knowledge.
As mentioned: 'not knowing your counter steering'
There are so many possiblities(imagine what else your doing-you're not realizing): if they're recording it. Then you watch it.
It sinks in alot more, than someone just saying it.
Not that you don't believe them-it's just the whole OMG I really did have poor foot position, scrubbed off too much speed before the apex, etc.

So these schools are worth their weight in gold.
We spend so much into the bikes. What about our skills?
I once heard a racer say (from an endurance race): "We had the fastest bike on the track. But the there was one guy who spent some time getting dialed in. That when he was racing, he was lapping everyone there including myself. He lost the position eventually, once he traded off to his partner."

[EtrnlSoldier]

Thanks guys!
Oh yeah, where is Spencer's school?

Viva Las Vegas baby, Yeah!

[Ludicrous Speed]

I would love to get into one of these schools, but the locations and cost are usually prohibitive.

How much is Spencer's school, and do you bring your own bikes?

[EtrnlSoldier]

I would love to get into one of these schools, but the locations and cost are usually prohibitive.

How much is Spencer's school, and do you bring your own bikes?

Spencer's school is about $2400.00 for Sport Rider 1 (2 days) and you use their bikes, which are CBR600s.