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Author Topic: Manipulated Dyno #s- I'm Sick Of It! Video Inside  (Read 16156 times)

Offline Chuck Wilburn

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Manipulated Dyno #s- I'm Sick Of It! Video Inside
« on: December 06, 2007, 04:15:50 PM »
I'm sick of guys posting this 230hp 1397 bullshit.  1397s don't make that much- their doing good to get close to 220 with fuel/sidewinder/rods, compression etc...  Not just off the shelf pistons and a good head/cams.  We made a video today showing how people can , and do, manipulate the weather station on their dynos to show more power.  Enjoy-

http://www.tupeloperformancecycles.com/dyno_service.htm

The video is about 5 minutes long so give it time to load.  You'll notice a few skips in the video- at the end it sounds like I say "8", but I really said "18"- you'll know what I mean when you see it.


Offline 396

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Re: Manipulated Dyno #s- I'm Sick Of It! Video Inside
« Reply #1 on: December 06, 2007, 04:33:41 PM »
Glad that you did this. I have known for years that there are no everyday street riden, 230HP, 1 battery starting, do not overheat, pump gas 1397's. There may be some with that bore, but not with stock stroke. I am sure you are going to get a bunch of bashing for saying it, but you had the balls to post it.   :beechug:

Offline Mospeada

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Re: Manipulated Dyno #s- I'm Sick Of It! Video Inside
« Reply #2 on: December 06, 2007, 04:57:55 PM »
Awesome video. I know there are tons of ways to manipulate the dyno and the horsepower gains when something as simple as a pipe and pc are added.

But THANK YOU for posting that. You've definately are an honorable person and shop.

Take off like a 13, flick it like a 6

Offline Chuck Wilburn

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Re: Manipulated Dyno #s- I'm Sick Of It! Video Inside
« Reply #3 on: December 06, 2007, 05:43:25 PM »
Thanks guys- heres the same link over on psychobike- lot's of veiws and discussion.
http://psychobike.com/cgi-bin/ikonboard.cgi?s=e9ec4dc8e34c58564e6bbe69cbd36ca2;act=ST;f=1;t=52718;

Offline enginetuna

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Re: Manipulated Dyno #s- I'm Sick Of It! Video Inside
« Reply #4 on: December 06, 2007, 05:46:45 PM »
Yes can be very misleading.
Have seen 10bhp jump from run 1 to run 10.  How many times you see runs posted that show run 1,2 or 3 as the base run.  Then spend an hour putting heat into chassis, tyre and room and at final run its another 6bhp.  But, if you then put zero map back in it will say for example be like 1 or 2bhp different.
15bhp gain or loss from swapping tyres.  This is common place on high power machines.  Fit a touring tyre over a 16.5" dunlop and you can add 15bhp easily.
And then there is cheating the weather station as shown here which is open to those figures and more.  I've even heard of some shops putting a hair dryer in front of the stack whilst ramming cold air into the engine.
Run in 4th or 5th gear and different readings.
Slacken the straps holding th ebike down for base runs and then pull tight on final runs, easy 6-8bhp on big bike like busa.
Then there is of course race gas.  None of the classes i build for allow it so i always use pump stuff.  But i understand some of the VP is worth up to 10bhp.
So add all that together and its easy to put 40bhp onto a set of runs.
You need to look at conditions closely as well as the tyre slip graphs.
And if you are an honest engine tuner don't get disheartened when you see some of these figures.

Offline Johnnnycheese

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Re: Manipulated Dyno #s- I'm Sick Of It! Video Inside
« Reply #5 on: December 06, 2007, 07:12:24 PM »
My numbers are always real PERIOD.
There was a reason I made sure I could run a dyno correctly before I started mapping on one
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Offline Chuck Wilburn

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Re: Manipulated Dyno #s- I'm Sick Of It! Video Inside
« Reply #6 on: December 06, 2007, 07:23:04 PM »
 :thumb:

Offline busa416

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Re: Manipulated Dyno #s- I'm Sick Of It! Video Inside
« Reply #7 on: December 06, 2007, 08:22:24 PM »
Ive heard of people waving a N20 hose in front of the air box also.When the owner is not present.
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Offline dave393

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Re: Manipulated Dyno #s- I'm Sick Of It! Video Inside
« Reply #8 on: December 07, 2007, 10:01:42 AM »
thanks for having the balls to show people this stuff. i am in the business of performance harleys and i go through the same bullshit with people talking shit because of dyno numbers. i race harleys and busas and an old h-2 triple. I've seen bikes go alot faster at the track with less #s than another bike, even with the same rider on the different bikes. thumbs to chuck for using a dyno for tuning and not just selling stories.   :thumb:
« Last Edit: December 07, 2007, 10:04:18 AM by dave393 »
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Offline SteddyTeddy

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Re: Manipulated Dyno #s- I'm Sick Of It! Video Inside
« Reply #9 on: December 07, 2007, 10:32:18 AM »
As long as there are people with big $$ in their pockets wanting to see big HP #'s it will never stop. 

Offline Spaz Racing

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Re: Manipulated Dyno #s- I'm Sick Of It! Video Inside
« Reply #10 on: December 07, 2007, 04:29:00 PM »
I am proud to say this but I have never fudged dyno numbers,EVER. I have seen plenty of 225-229hp 1397's and a few 230-235hp
 MPH is the end result.

Offline Chuck Wilburn

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Re: Manipulated Dyno #s- I'm Sick Of It! Video Inside
« Reply #11 on: December 07, 2007, 07:37:46 PM »
True about the mph Spaz- but hp varies greatly form dyno to dyno.  Or it may have to do with what part of the country the dyno is in.  I'm not saying you fudged any numbers, I've spoke with you enough and seen your work around long enough to believe you wouldn't do that.  But I have had some of your motors on my dyno and none of them have made anywhere close to that kind of power.  Again, that's on my dyno.  I have no doubt in my mind that they make what you say on your dyno or the dyno you were using.  As a matter of fact- the bike (given that nothing has been changed on it) makes the same hp on any dyno- it's the dyno that changes- not the bike.  That's why I made this video, to try and show people how a dyno can vary or be manipulated and show them that just because they get a head from a guy claiming it has made 220+, that doesn't mean they will see that hp on their local dyno.  It doesn't mean he didn't get the power he paid for, it just means the dyno he's on isn't showing it.       

Offline DarkFalcon

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Re: Manipulated Dyno #s- I'm Sick Of It! Video Inside
« Reply #12 on: December 07, 2007, 08:02:25 PM »
True about the mph Spaz- but hp varies greatly form dyno to dyno.  Or it may have to do with what part of the country the dyno is in.  I'm not saying you fudged any numbers, I've spoke with you enough and seen your work around long enough to believe you wouldn't do that.  But I have had some of your motors on my dyno and none of them have made anywhere close to that kind of power.  Again, that's on my dyno.  I have no doubt in my mind that they make what you say on your dyno or the dyno you were using.  As a matter of fact- the bike (given that nothing has been changed on it) makes the same hp on any dyno- it's the dyno that changes- not the bike.  That's why I made this video, to try and show people how a dyno can vary or be manipulated and show them that just because they get a head from a guy claiming it has made 220+, that doesn't mean they will see that hp on their local dyno.  It doesn't mean he didn't get the power he paid for, it just means the dyno he's on isn't showing it.       

Chuck, you are making a number of interesting points but I believe you are getting to the core of the problem in what you say above. Without ruling out dishonest practices, I do think there are material variations between different dyno's, and their respective weather stations and the correction factors that they create, which can lead to legitimate differences of opinion as to the potential of a particular combination.

Offline Chuck Wilburn

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Re: Manipulated Dyno #s- I'm Sick Of It! Video Inside
« Reply #13 on: December 07, 2007, 08:40:23 PM »
I agree.  Since I put this video up on psychobike there's been quite a healthy discussion over there!  A couple of guys have made mention of dynos in different parts of the country reading differently- given that no tom-foolery was involved.  I notice that most of the higher hp claims come from the Northern climates.  You don't here of any big numbers coming from Florida or Mississippi.  When I first got my dyno I thought that the correction factor would accomidate for any weather/atmospheric  condition therefore a bike should dyno the same no matter where in the country it was or what the conditions were.  But we've proved that not to be so.   

Offline gazza414

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Re: Manipulated Dyno #s- I'm Sick Of It! Video Inside
« Reply #14 on: December 07, 2007, 08:53:15 PM »
Chuck, I've seen a bike gain 15hp when dyno'd on 2 different DJ250's here in Sydney OZ,  on the same day, 3hrs duration between pulls 15miles apart, both times strapped and 45psi in the rear.

Now the guy with the dyno that reads"lower" is always struggling as the other guy claims this and that. like alot over in the states as well.

If you are very clever, Winpep software can be "manipulated" too :thumb:
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Offline entropy

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Re: Manipulated Dyno #s- I'm Sick Of It! Video Inside
« Reply #15 on: December 08, 2007, 03:03:53 AM »
... When I first got my dyno I thought that the correction factor would accomidate for any weather/atmospheric  condition therefore a bike should dyno the same no matter where in the country it was or what the conditions were.  But we've proved that not to be so.   

Yes indeed!
I have had my bike on half a dozen DynoJet 250's incl Spaz, JohnnyCheese, Tejas and i keep good records. several hundred pulls.

When temp is low and baro high, the DJ 250 always shows more hp, no matter how careful/honest the operator is about his weatherstation.

I like the DJ250 because i can get a bunch of info in 1 sweep, but i don't really trust numbers done on different days with different air.
Often wrong, but never unsure!!!!!

Offline Chuck Wilburn

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Re: Manipulated Dyno #s- I'm Sick Of It! Video Inside
« Reply #16 on: December 08, 2007, 07:48:30 AM »
My dyno, and I think all, is very consistant day to day.  I know what my test bike should make before I ever put it up there and no matter what the conditions, it always makes what I expect.  Or I'll dyno a bike that I pulled 6 months ago, pull up the old dyno run and it's the same now is it was then.  The trouble comes when trying to compare to another dyno.

Offline enginetuna

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Re: Manipulated Dyno #s- I'm Sick Of It! Video Inside
« Reply #17 on: December 08, 2007, 08:40:25 AM »
I congratulate you for posting up Chuck.  There are plenty of shops where the operators don't understand the operation, weather station, tyre slip graph, etc etc.  Don't let the those that slam you get to you, many don't understand and don't want to hear so just let them continue on blindly

Offline whtrthanu

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Re: Manipulated Dyno #s- I'm Sick Of It! Video Inside
« Reply #18 on: December 08, 2007, 09:09:20 AM »
THIS IS WHY YOU SHOULD ALWAYS TEST ON SAE...............
standard correction factor..............
no weather conditions will change the output too drastic
Ive tested on several dynos all dynojet 250s  or 200s  and they are ALL within 5hp - 8 hp on SAE scale.......This is from local shops and out of state shops............

On my dyno numbers are like this on SAE
average busa.....152-155
06 zx10.....160
05 gsxr 1000.......160
06 zx14..........162
« Last Edit: December 08, 2007, 09:31:58 AM by whtrthanu »

Offline Chuck Wilburn

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Re: Manipulated Dyno #s- I'm Sick Of It! Video Inside
« Reply #19 on: December 08, 2007, 10:15:48 AM »
I just corrected the bogus run to SAE and it only droped it 3hp.

Offline enginetuna

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Re: Manipulated Dyno #s- I'm Sick Of It! Video Inside
« Reply #20 on: December 08, 2007, 10:37:38 AM »
SAE will still be a long way out if the air pressure is wrong.  XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX  -  section removed  -  XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX.  You will see about 20bhp  between them on a busa.
Chuck isn't saying everyone with high bhp is doing this, he's just informing those that don't understand to pay attention to this.
« Last Edit: December 11, 2007, 11:22:14 AM by enginetuna »

Offline gnd111

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Re: Manipulated Dyno #s- I'm Sick Of It! Video Inside
« Reply #21 on: December 08, 2007, 11:26:41 AM »
I notice that most of the higher hp claims come from the Northern climates.  You don't here of any big numbers coming from Florida or Mississippi.

Same with MPH at the track - we only make it strong in winter... :thumb:

Offline Johnnnycheese

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Re: Manipulated Dyno #s- I'm Sick Of It! Video Inside
« Reply #22 on: December 08, 2007, 01:17:54 PM »
I just corrected the bogus run to SAE and it only droped it 3hp.

I get .02 which is the same any day of the year
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Offline whtrthanu

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Re: Manipulated Dyno #s- I'm Sick Of It! Video Inside
« Reply #23 on: December 08, 2007, 01:49:12 PM »
Im not talking about making any changes to the stack.Im saying if you compare any dyno on sae on any day from a shop that hasnt messed with the stack they should all be close......
I know what point chuck is trying to get across and I believe that there are guys that do it to sell there product....On my dyno the power is the lowest of all other big builders yet my motors mph and et great for the low numbers.......your only cheating yourself if you mess with the stack....
YOu have a starting point and you see your increase no matter what the final number is....Take it to the track and run a number with it.....that proves it all.........

Offline Chuck Wilburn

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Re: Manipulated Dyno #s- I'm Sick Of It! Video Inside
« Reply #24 on: December 08, 2007, 02:49:42 PM »
 :thumb: