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Author Topic: Revealing some secrets of Hayabusa ECU...  (Read 46448 times)

Offline PetriK

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Revealing some secrets of Hayabusa ECU...
« on: December 29, 2007, 03:09:43 PM »
Some of you guys may be interested in about the findings of reading the hayabusa ECU program and bench testing of Busa K5/K6 ECU...

First of all the busa ecu is from factory a map select switch ready, even though there is no difference between the maps loaded in the ECU memory. You can start using the second set of maps by grounding the pin 21 on the harness connector - no magic, just a simple switch.

Inside the ECU there is an ignition map for 1st, 2nd 3&4 and 5&6 gears. This enables setting a different advance for 1st and second gear for better 60ft times ... the map is split between two banks, inner and outer cylinders. For neutral/clutch there is just a simple RPM based map for ignition advance. E.g. with TRE you just use the 5&6 ignition map which is very different to other maps particularly at part throttle areas. There seems to be much more advance on 5&6 map at very small throttle openings where as with other gears it looks like they had reduced the advance, maybe to avoid knock or just keep the front wheel down ? What ever the case, this looks like an area for optimization. With more than  10% throttle opening (30% total TPS voltage) there is not much difference, even though it looks like the top gears runs just a bit more advance even at full TPS/RPM.

For fuel, there is a separate map for each of the cylinders. (and a second set of maps in case you decide to install the map select swithc). Additionally there is a lot of other sensors affecting fuel delivery including injector opening time compensation based on the engine voltage or outside air temperature.

Then about the mystery of ramair compensation. There is actually two sets of ram air compensation maps. Normal load map for all gears 1...6 and a high load map for 3,4,5,and 6th gear. The total difference in injector pulse at around full throttle and 9krpm is about 0.2-0.3ms (have not had equipment to get exact figure). At 9krpm the injectors run around 10ms so its 0.2/10, i.e. compensation is 2-3%. For you guys who run TRE and dyno at 5th or 6th gear this means that your engine is about 2-3% too lean at LSR events (200+MPH).  Suzuki seems to consider that anything above 56% TPS (voltage) or above 8000 rpm is high load.

Regarding RPM limiters, there ECU is limiting the 6th gear around 10050 rpm. Normal RPM limiter being at around 10800 and clutched being around 10500. The interesting thing is that there is three sets of limiters. The normal RPM limiters, Gear specific limiters (for top speed limiting) and third set for which I have not yet found a purpose. The maps maps run to about 13.000rpm and ingition maps even a bit higher. So it looks like the ecu is able to run up to appr 13k just by changing the limiters alone. Well done Suzuki for thinking in advance ... this is something I will certainly look to benefit for next season...

Then something more contraversary... Then there is an interesting issue of error codes to be looked more in detail if its just my mistake or something more. A misaligned IAP sensor produces an Ambient pressure FI code and Ambient pressure sensor fault produces an IAP sensor fault code. These two sensors work together. Anyhow it is certain that the ecu calculates the pressure by first measuring the ambient pressure and then reducing the intake pressure from that figure. Based on the result of that calculation the fuel delivered to the ECU is calculated. And then bad news for you guys running powercommanders and alikes. The fuel is always calculated based on the pressure, there is no TPS limit after which the pressure is not anymore taken into account. In practise this means that a TPS based fuel adjustment computer (a piggyback unit) will not be enough for compensating the fuel loads needed for various conditions. Its possible to dynotune something that works very well with fast acceleration on track, but that may not anymore work well under normal driving conditions - and vice versa. This may well explain why some persons are complaining a poor driveability on the street with bikes performing very well on the track.

The above applies only to 2004-2007 busas Euro and USA. I dont have a commercial interest in any of this so the above is just my personal opinion based on what I have learnt by looking inside the busa ecu. Something to be shared to make our bikes run stronger and faster on track...


Offline GeorgeC

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Re: Revealing some secrets of Hayabusa ECU...
« Reply #1 on: December 29, 2007, 03:30:01 PM »
Interesting findings...

I wish someone would come up with software/hardware to reflash the ECU vs. using a Power Commander to tune with...  Back in my car days, I used a program called LS1 Edit to modify the fuel/timing maps in the ECM.  You could also adjust things like rev limiters, shift points, etc...

Offline PetriK

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Re: Revealing some secrets of Hayabusa ECU...
« Reply #2 on: December 29, 2007, 03:54:53 PM »
Interesting findings...

I wish someone would come up with software/hardware to reflash the ECU vs. using a Power Commander to tune with...  Back in my car days, I used a program called LS1 Edit to modify the fuel/timing maps in the ECM.  You could also adjust things like rev limiters, shift points, etc...

Oh - that is avail already ...

http://www.suzukihayabusa.org/forum/index.php?topic=117561.msg1163892#msg1163892

The electronics parts costs around 20usd for d.i.y. kit. Lets hope that someone makes the also the ready made programming devices also available soon...



Offline Oz Booster

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Re: Revealing some secrets of Hayabusa ECU...
« Reply #3 on: December 29, 2007, 04:44:32 PM »

The electronics parts costs around 20usd for d.i.y. kit. Lets hope that someone makes the also the ready made programming devices also available soon...



Great stuff you guys are doing, can't wait till you or someone has a device and programme and cable ready to buy and use.
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Offline KOSS

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Re: Revealing some secrets of Hayabusa ECU...
« Reply #4 on: December 29, 2007, 04:54:49 PM »
 :thumb: Hey good luck with your findings. Makes very interesting reading.

Offline busa2001

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Re: Revealing some secrets of Hayabusa ECU...
« Reply #5 on: December 29, 2007, 04:59:29 PM »

The electronics parts costs around 20usd for d.i.y. kit. Lets hope that someone makes the also the ready made programming devices also available soon...



Great stuff you guys are doing, can't wait till you or someone has a device and programme and cable ready to buy and use.
+1  :thumb:

Offline Quasar

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Re: Revealing some secrets of Hayabusa ECU...
« Reply #6 on: December 29, 2007, 06:58:09 PM »
...And then bad news for you guys running powercommanders and alikes. The fuel is always calculated based on the pressure, there is no TPS limit after which the pressure is not anymore taken into account. In practise this means that a TPS based fuel adjustment computer (a piggyback unit) will not be enough for compensating the fuel loads needed for various conditions. Its possible to dynotune something that works very well with fast acceleration on track, but that may not anymore work well under normal driving conditions - and vice versa. This may well explain why some persons are complaining a poor driveability on the street with bikes performing very well on the track.

That's not bad news, as it has no effect on a Power Commander's ability to increase or decrease fueling. A PCIII USB DIRECTLY controls the fuel injectors and this provides them with an ability to DIRECTLY increase or decrease fuel injector pulse durations regardless of how the ECM's programmed fueling compensation has altered the fueling. If this weren't true, then you would never be able to make an engine run overly rich or overly lean with a Power Commander, which has been proven throughout the years that they can, as detected by use of an O2 sensor and data logger, as well as an O2 sensor on the dyno. :wink:

Offline Busa Quick

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Re: Revealing some secrets of Hayabusa ECU...
« Reply #7 on: December 29, 2007, 08:05:03 PM »
There is actually two sets of ram air compensation maps. Normal load map for all gears 1...6 and a high load map for 3,4,5,and 6th gear. The total difference in injector pulse at around full throttle and 9krpm is about 0.2-0.3ms (have not had equipment to get exact figure). At 9krpm the injectors run around 10ms so its 0.2/10, i.e. compensation is 2-3%. For you guys who run TRE and dyno at 5th or 6th gear this means that your engine is about 2-3% too lean at LSR events (200+MPH).  Suzuki seems to consider that anything above 56% TPS (voltage) or above 8000 rpm is high load.



With this info it means that your high load power commander tune may not be right for low load.


Mark
Black and Purple 04, MY MODS: Turbo, .08 spacer, s2000 injectors, yosh cams 7.2 spring, heavy clutch springs, APE valve springs, raised rev limiter to 11,500 rpm with ignition cut only, using only stock ECM with Petrik reprogramming method,

Offline Rocketgeezer

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Re: Revealing some secrets of Hayabusa ECU...
« Reply #8 on: December 29, 2007, 08:54:46 PM »
Hey Busa Q your exactly right thats why we can,t seem to get the bikes to run as smooth as the cars driveability wise, we can get them good like after doing mods,pipes,PC,cams turbo or whatever, but if the factory had a mind to do it they could have the Busa with 400HP and run like a swiss watch
The older you get do you notice you start chickening out way before the bike does

Offline glenn71

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Re: Revealing some secrets of Hayabusa ECU...
« Reply #9 on: December 30, 2007, 02:42:54 AM »
i had my bike tested at 2,5 and 10% throttle settings with realtime torque software ona dj250i and found the same thing.The tre only helps the lower gears torque output up to 10% throttle.I no longer have a tre fitted but recently balanced my throttle bodies with the mercuries.It feels as good to idle rpms pulling out of corners than with a tre fitted.No more chugging.My tre definately worked but cutout at 10k and the wires pulled out so i binned it.I,d consider a gi pro or similar if it was switchable though.Interestingly the extra ignition advance at 2-10% throttle barely changed the air/fuel .1.
Gen1 the original and the best
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Offline busa2r

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Re: Revealing some secrets of Hayabusa ECU...
« Reply #10 on: December 30, 2007, 06:12:21 AM »
Sounds like a good project for smithabusa it would be nice to program the stock ecu and get rid of those unreliable P.C.

Offline ButchB

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Re: Revealing some secrets of Hayabusa ECU...
« Reply #11 on: December 30, 2007, 09:56:34 AM »
www.hondata.com  Back when I raced Hondas everybody used these guys. They do with a honda ecu exactly what somebody needs to do with the busa ecm. I'm sure they could probably do it just not sure if they'd be interested in it without knowing the market.

Offline PetriK

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Re: Revealing some secrets of Hayabusa ECU...
« Reply #12 on: December 30, 2007, 12:36:37 PM »
www.hondata.com  Back when I raced Hondas everybody used these guys. They do with a honda ecu exactly what somebody needs to do with the busa ecm. I'm sure they could probably do it just not sure if they'd be interested in it without knowing the market.

The required software for tuning already exists - even though its a bit annoying to change each cylinder or ignition bank separately. Anyway using Hondata or Enginuity is all about knowing what parameters are used by ECM for which purpose - for that knowledge we are very close to have a fairly comprehensive understanding of the inside of ecm. The only real item that is missing is really a simple hardware for someone to manufacture and make available: one chip, seven capasitors, one double switch and one pushbutton + some wiring.

Then the skills of how to benefit from having an access inside to the ecu program is a completely different story. The fuel maps are known, the ignition maps are known, the limiters are known - also the switching algorithm between different maps are under work. Map switch parameters are known - but it requires a competent tuner to benefit from this new ability to tweak the ecu.

I am happy to share all the information learned about the topic information publicly with persons who are truly interested. I am not in a business to sell ecu mods, but hopefully with this information soon some other persons will be offering extended ecu service with a street and high octane fuel/track ignition maps installed when extending the rpm limits ;-)).





Offline enginetuna

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Re: Revealing some secrets of Hayabusa ECU...
« Reply #13 on: December 30, 2007, 04:11:06 PM »
This is very good information.  Many thanks for sharing.
I'd love to access the stock ecu's.  Would save me a lot of time when i fit aftermarket ecu's.
And yes the powercommander is prone to quite bad skew on some bikes.  Suzuki run big maps.  The newer 1000's from k5 onwards doing really quite drastically different things depending on load.  The upper/lower injector duty cycles frick around too which is why many can't tune them right.  The 600 is much worse.
If you log the stv's under varying loads the findings can be quite shocking.
I was testing a k6 1000 couple weeks back and could get well over 1AF and a 15bhp difference at mid rpms just by varying rpm acceleration rate and step testing.
« Last Edit: December 30, 2007, 04:12:44 PM by enginetuna »

Offline Busa Quick

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Re: Revealing some secrets of Hayabusa ECU...
« Reply #14 on: January 10, 2008, 04:16:51 PM »

 Sticky please.



Mark
Black and Purple 04, MY MODS: Turbo, .08 spacer, s2000 injectors, yosh cams 7.2 spring, heavy clutch springs, APE valve springs, raised rev limiter to 11,500 rpm with ignition cut only, using only stock ECM with Petrik reprogramming method,

Offline Texanzone

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Re: Revealing some secrets of Hayabusa ECU...
« Reply #15 on: January 12, 2008, 09:17:21 AM »
 :thumb: :thumb: :thumb:

Offline whtrthanu

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Re: Revealing some secrets of Hayabusa ECU...
« Reply #16 on: January 12, 2008, 09:36:43 AM »
this is very informative....Really interesting, to see what they do inside that ecu.....The only part that sucks is even harley sells a race tuner that is a bit pricey at about $500, it is encoded to each bike only, so you can give it to your buddy to use....
you can flash the stock ecu over and really change EVERY parameter in it....From the cold start idle speed, to individual cylinder timing and fuel.....If they can make this for those lawn tractors, why can these suzuki techs offer it to us......DAMN!!!!

Offline PetriK

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Re: Revealing some secrets of Hayabusa ECU...
« Reply #17 on: January 13, 2008, 10:13:53 AM »
this is very informative....Really interesting, to see what they do inside that ecu.....The only part that sucks is even harley sells a race tuner that is a bit pricey at about $500, it is encoded to each bike only, so you can give it to your buddy to use....
you can flash the stock ecu over and really change EVERY parameter in it....From the cold start idle speed, to individual cylinder timing and fuel.....If they can make this for those lawn tractors, why can these suzuki techs offer it to us......DAMN!!!!

Well dont know about suzi techs - but all you mentioned above is already avail for K4-K7 busas  - all you need is something like below put in a nice little box to connect your ecu from the harness connector to your laptop - well below 50usd diy if using an USB module (an USB-RS232-TTL module, switch, pushbutton and an optional led). Its only 7 wires to be connected to the harness connector.



More information go there:
http://www.activeboard.com/forum.spark?forumID=99460&p=1
« Last Edit: January 13, 2008, 10:17:40 AM by PetriK »

Offline whtrthanu

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Re: Revealing some secrets of Hayabusa ECU...
« Reply #18 on: January 13, 2008, 10:49:01 AM »
I have to say there are very few people that impress me....But im bowing to your skills. :D
We need to talk about getting me set up with some of this hardware.........
Its times like these that I wish I stayed in college :lol:

Offline PetriK

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Re: Revealing some secrets of Hayabusa ECU...
« Reply #19 on: January 16, 2008, 07:35:54 AM »
Thanks !  :o

I have understood that a couple of riders from this board have already built this interface. Maybe they will reveal themselves and help you and the others ? Building one is very easy, its just some rewiring and one switch - if you can buy the USB-RS232-TTL as ready made. (something like these should work:
http://www.superdroidrobots.com/shop/item.asp?itemid=795
http://www.hvwtech.com/products_view.asp?ProductID=409
http://www.ecrater.com/product.php?pid=1750396
found by google)

Btw. a couple of days ago discovered that there is a feature in Busa ecus that enables you to log some of the parameters (tps position, rpm, voltage) etc. to your laptop when you e.g. are dynoing the bike. Unfortunately the baud rate is not necessarily compatible with normal PC - but if we can get this working it would be very high tech to have all the data on gauges on the laptop to know precicely where to tune the maps. Looks like the Busa ECU has always been a tuneable racing ecu to start with - we just have not known it ...

« Last Edit: January 16, 2008, 07:45:29 AM by PetriK »

Offline V8Pinto

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Re: Revealing some secrets of Hayabusa ECU...
« Reply #20 on: June 29, 2008, 12:20:57 PM »
Hey Petrik,

I built the flash unit based on what I found on your activeboard site (thanks very much for all the good info).  Today I'll reconfigure the wires to the ECU and try it out. 

Quick question - when typing in hyperterm (Tx/Rx jumpered) I don't see the blue LED light up.  Is that just because it's so fast I don't see it?  Does the LED effect the signaling levels (vih/vil)?

I'll put a scope on it to see but figured I'd ask just the same.  Again, thanks for the help - I'm looking forward to ditching my TRE and flashing my own ECU for the LSR events.


Offline PetriK

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Re: Revealing some secrets of Hayabusa ECU...
« Reply #21 on: June 29, 2008, 12:30:29 PM »
Hi, Pinto - If you are in USA, you really may want to talk with DaveO who has done a tremendous amount of work in testing the USA flash images and reflashing. I am now only actively working with EU ECU:s which is somewhat different to what is used in USA or Australia.

Saying that the results we are getting with reflashing the both all motor and particularly turbo bikes are very good... particularly when tuning the vacuum maps.