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Author Topic: 1507 Build and Development of New CNC Head  (Read 9991 times)

Offline Steve S

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1507 Build and Development of New CNC Head
« on: January 03, 2008, 03:09:24 PM »
With the passing of 2007, it is time to get serious about one of our projects for 2008: converting my 2000 1397 Haybusa into a 1507. Bryan, Jim (CompetitionCNC) and I will be posting on the project but before the thread is started I wanted to ask board members what they would like to see incorporated into the discussion and the various progress reports that will be posted at different intervals. We will not disclose proprietary information, including certain specifications and select vendor sourcing, but we will be as forthcoming as possible and, to the extent possible, discuss everything in concept. As part of this project we will be working with Jim in designing a cylinder head for this engine which will also serve as the platform for his Stage 2 Hayabusa profile/cut. As of this writing, the engine is disassembled and we are waiting on the 5mm weld-up crankshaft.

Offline Professor

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Re: 1507 Build and Development of New CNC Head
« Reply #1 on: January 03, 2008, 03:45:59 PM »
I'm looking forward to seeing it.

But even more so I would be interested in seeing what his Stage 1 head would do in a smaller street setup. Say a 1300-1350cc 12:1  with mild cams . Basically updating a Gen 1 Busa to near 08 specs as far as cam, compression, and see how the head performs compared to a stock Gen I and 08.
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Offline RetiredUSAF

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Re: 1507 Build and Development of New CNC Head
« Reply #2 on: January 03, 2008, 04:02:12 PM »
Steve S,
One thing I have always wondered about:  Does the 1507, and on up, really really need the big-valve head?  I have always wondered how big, in CCs, a Busa motor needs to be - for the bigger valved head to really make significantly more HP.

Thanks for this topic, hopefully I'll learn something from your build.
Mike
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Online osti33

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Re: 1507 Build and Development of New CNC Head
« Reply #3 on: January 03, 2008, 04:43:02 PM »
I can't wait to see the results. :thumb:
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Online osti33

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Re: 1507 Build and Development of New CNC Head
« Reply #4 on: January 03, 2008, 04:45:18 PM »
I'm looking forward to seeing it.

But even more so I would be interested in seeing what his Stage 1 head would do in a smaller street setup. Say a 1300-1350cc 12:1  with mild cams . Basically updating a Gen 1 Busa to near 08 specs as far as cam, compression, and see how the head performs compared to a stock Gen I and 08.

They already did one kind of like that. It is a 1397.

http://www.suzukihayabusa.org/forum/index.php?topic=123218.0
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Offline Texanzone

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Re: 1507 Build and Development of New CNC Head
« Reply #5 on: January 03, 2008, 11:09:11 PM »
this will be good

Offline gazza414

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Re: 1507 Build and Development of New CNC Head
« Reply #6 on: January 03, 2008, 11:25:59 PM »
Steve,

you might like to share your thoughts on how you plan to  trial , benchmark and evaluate the results?

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Offline Mospeada

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Re: 1507 Build and Development of New CNC Head
« Reply #7 on: January 04, 2008, 06:05:00 PM »
Make it last!!

Personally (and maybe this is just me), I really don't care to see a big numbers 1507 if it means it's gotta be torn down twice a season or whatever.

I've always been impressed with those talented mechanics out there that have made big numbers on some-what reliable motors that can last at least a couple of years with basic maintainance and such.
Take off like a 13, flick it like a 6

Offline tampated

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Re: 1507 Build and Development of New CNC Head
« Reply #8 on: January 05, 2008, 05:31:48 AM »
Why did you choose a weld up rather than a forged billet?

What compression will you use?

What cam timing will you use?

Ted....

Offline Steve S

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Re: 1507 Build and Development of New CNC Head
« Reply #9 on: January 05, 2008, 01:36:09 PM »
Thanks for the interest shown thus far.

1) Gazza, you asked an excellent question because we do have goals and will approach this build somewhat differently. It will be very goal driven and all of the parts and components will be selected to support this goal and work together. It will be a goal...design.....build engine. Our goal is to make 240 HP plus or minus using an oxygenated gas under STD reference conditions. And when the engine is dyno tested we will take every step to document testing conditions to avoid all of the theater and credibility issues. Other goals include cost-effectiveness and reliability for the application. The dyno will be one avaluation tool while the drag strip will be the other. With respect to the latter, we think we can see times in the 8.6 to 8.8 range on SWB depending upon track and ambient conditions. Sonny will be riding.

2) We will be using a stock valve head as we believe bore drives intake valve sizing more than displacement. When intake valve OD exceeds around 40% of the bore, it would appear shrouding becomes an issue; recent tests done by Carpenter bears this out. As a result, we may use an intake camshaft with a slightly larger lift than what would be used with oversized valves.

3) 5mm weld-up cranks seem to have proven themselves and we feel comfortable in incorporating such a crank in this engine. We have drawn upon first hand experience with 5mm billet cranks and larger weld-ups to make this decision. Cost is an issue as well.

4) While we have an idea what cams we will be using, we will not commit to a specifics until the head has been designed and flow numbers become available. LC's will follow the specific camshafts.

5) Flat top pistons will be used but until the chamber volume is determioned I cannot give you static CR.

Again, thanks for the interest.
« Last Edit: January 05, 2008, 02:29:44 PM by Steve S »

Offline Adrnlnjunky

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Re: 1507 Build and Development of New CNC Head
« Reply #10 on: January 05, 2008, 03:48:46 PM »
I'm looking forward to seeing the different stages and results. Thanks.  :thumb:

I'm sure I'll have questions as it progresses.
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Offline Competition CNC

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Re: 1507 Build and Development of New CNC Head
« Reply #11 on: January 24, 2008, 07:37:03 AM »
Well, they are finally done!!!!

The Stage 2 and 2R as well as a Stage 3 for the LSR guys. After a lot of number crunching, calcs. and simulation we have come up with what we feel is the best overall design.
We have targeted specific displacements with these designs to maintain proper velocity for the given displacement. The LSR Stage 3 isnít for the street.  It will not perform well below 4000-5000 rpm and there should be a slight torque loss compared to the stage 2 at those RPMs. Itís designed for BIG engine Busas and peak HP right where they need it most.
There are a total of 4 designs for the Busa and it will be very important to select the right head for your application.


We will be posting some details shortly.
 
Jim

Offline enginetuna

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Re: 1507 Build and Development of New CNC Head
« Reply #12 on: January 24, 2008, 08:21:45 AM »
Excellent, can't wait to see the graphs.  Be ncie to see what sort of peak figures a 1507 can make with some top headwork.
Will the dyno charts be engine or chassis?

Online osti33

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Re: 1507 Build and Development of New CNC Head
« Reply #13 on: January 24, 2008, 04:42:47 PM »
Well, they are finally done!!!!

The Stage 2 and 2R as well as a Stage 3 for the LSR guys. After a lot of number crunching, calcs. and simulation we have come up with what we feel is the best overall design.
We have targeted specific displacements with these designs to maintain proper velocity for the given displacement. The LSR Stage 3 isnít for the street.  It will not perform well below 4000-5000 rpm and there should be a slight torque loss compared to the stage 2 at those RPMs. Itís designed for BIG engine Busas and peak HP right where they need it most.
There are a total of 4 designs for the Busa and it will be very important to select the right head for your application.


We will be posting some details shortly.
 

Excellent! Can wait to see the results. :thumb:
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Offline Phantom13

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Re: 1507 Build and Development of New CNC Head
« Reply #14 on: January 24, 2008, 05:12:54 PM »
These may be a stupid questions, but bare with me. Just curious about the testing proceedures.


Will you be testing your head against another tuner's head on the same bike using the dyno?

Will you be testing your different stage heads using the same bike on the dyno?

Will you be testing the above mentioned in the 1/4 mile?

How will you be sure peformance gains/losses are not effected by variables like air temp/pressure , humidity, wind speed/direction, and of course.... rider performance. How will you know if any gains are due to the headwork or simply "a good day/run"?

Will you have a datalogger on this bike to determine the speed vs time in each gear from one head to another? If so, will all 6 gears be road tested?

Offline busa200

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Re: 1507 Build and Development of New CNC Head
« Reply #15 on: January 27, 2008, 04:04:47 PM »
These may be a stupid questions, but bare with me. Just curious about the testing proceedures.


Will you be testing your head against another tuner's head on the same bike using the dyno?

Will you be testing your different stage heads using the same bike on the dyno?

Will you be testing the above mentioned in the 1/4 mile?

How will you be sure peformance gains/losses are not effected by variables like air temp/pressure , humidity, wind speed/direction, and of course.... rider performance. How will you know if any gains are due to the headwork or simply "a good day/run"?

Will you have a datalogger on this bike to determine the speed vs time in each gear from one head to another? If so, will all 6 gears be road tested?
Don't start any crap here...

MM
« Last Edit: January 27, 2008, 08:29:48 PM by Manager »
259.85 m.p.h. at Maxton, built and tuned by DaveO

Offline Phantom13

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Re: 1507 Build and Development of New CNC Head
« Reply #16 on: January 30, 2008, 05:31:13 PM »

Don't start any crap here...

MM


Not starting crap, just inquiring about their testing proceedures. I think it's not only relevant to the topic, but also very important to make sure test results were not skewed by multiple variables. Who knows, the variable being tested may actually WORK and the peformance gains may not be seen due to another conflicting variable in the equation.

It's all part of the "Scientific Method". (google it)

It's for EVERYONE'S benefit.... especially for the actual testers who are spending the time/money for accurate test results.


Thanks.  :thumb:

Offline Rollin99

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Re: 1507 Build and Development of New CNC Head
« Reply #17 on: January 30, 2008, 11:16:49 PM »
This will be interesting,most interesting part will be the rebuild life of the project...
« Last Edit: January 30, 2008, 11:23:49 PM by Rollin99 »

Offline crazybill

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Re: 1507 Build and Development of New CNC Head
« Reply #18 on: January 31, 2008, 09:35:15 AM »
I thought they were reasonable inquirys... cant hurt to ask questions  :thumb:
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Offline Competition CNC

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Re: 1507 Build and Development of New CNC Head
« Reply #19 on: February 07, 2008, 07:12:19 AM »
Steves been busy, he just got back.  Give him a few days...   I'll let him know theres questions on here....
Jim

Offline Steve S

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Re: 1507 Build and Development of New CNC Head
« Reply #20 on: February 07, 2008, 03:21:28 PM »
Hey Jim it's good to be back. As to testing protocols, they have not been established but they will not be as rigorous as what Merck must follow to secure FDA approval for a new drug. It would be fun and informative to follow a really rigorous regime but the economics of this business simply do not permit such an expenditure of resources; few, if any, of our customers are interested in underwriting such an effort. The crank is still out but we just took delivery on the head from Jim's shop. :D

Offline Steve S

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Re: 1507 Build and Development of New CNC Head
« Reply #21 on: February 11, 2008, 11:28:45 AM »
Here is one pic of the CompetitionCNC ST2 Hayabusa head; others will follow. Compared to the ST1, this head has a slightly larger flange area and a proportionally larger window/choke area which was sized to keep estimated maximum port speeds the same as those in the ST1 on smaller engines such as 1397's.



Offline enginetuna

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Re: 1507 Build and Development of New CNC Head
« Reply #22 on: February 11, 2008, 01:10:19 PM »
Looks awesome, thanks for posting.
Do we get to see anymore?
When its run will you be trying it on regular pump gas for those of us who don't use race/oxy fuel to see what it does?
What spec cams?

Offline Steve S

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Re: 1507 Build and Development of New CNC Head
« Reply #23 on: February 11, 2008, 01:28:42 PM »
More pics will follow.............any particular shots/perspectives that you would like to see?

Offline Phantom13

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Re: 1507 Build and Development of New CNC Head
« Reply #24 on: February 11, 2008, 01:47:12 PM »
Hey Jim it's good to be back. As to testing protocols, they have not been established but they will not be as rigorous as what Merck must follow to secure FDA approval for a new drug. It would be fun and informative to follow a really rigorous regime but the economics of this business simply do not permit such an expenditure of resources; few, if any, of our customers are interested in underwriting such an effort. The crank is still out but we just took delivery on the head from Jim's shop. :D


So basically, you're testing the performance of the entire BIKE, not just the head, correct?

If this is the case, your best means of peformance comparison will probably be the 2 top 1507cc Busa's out there.

Sal's of Ace Performance and DaveO @ Lee's.

220+mph in the standing mile seems to be the benchmark.




Good luck and keep us all posted.  :thumb: