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Author Topic: 1507 Build and Development of New CNC Head  (Read 42218 times)

Offline crazybill

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Re: 1507 Build and Development of New CNC Head
« Reply #25 on: February 11, 2008, 01:58:38 PM »
2 top 1507's at maxton maybe.... Theres a buttload of them at dragstrips everywhere .
“Nobody can be so amusingly arrogant as a builder who has just discovered an old idea and thinks it is his own.”

Offline Steve S

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Re: 1507 Build and Development of New CNC Head
« Reply #26 on: February 11, 2008, 03:01:52 PM »



So basically, you're testing the performance of the entire BIKE, not just the head, correct?

If this is the case, your best means of peformance comparison will probably be the 2 top 1507cc Busa's out there.

Sal's of Ace Performance and DaveO @ Lee's.

220+mph in the standing mile seems to be the benchmark.




Good luck and keep us all posted.  :thumb:



Phantom, that is an interesting thought and one we have tossed around the shop. Our leaning, though, is towards the drag strip and the engine that is being assembled is purpose built; were we to design an engine for Maxton or any other venue for LSR, I know the head would change and incorporate slightly larger ports and we would probably reevaluate camshaft selection and timing. We would probably change the throttle bodies as well. But never say never, although Dave O is a very good friend for whom we have nothing but respect. More pics of the head:



« Last Edit: February 11, 2008, 03:33:57 PM by Steve S »

Offline midnight black man

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Re: 1507 Build and Development of New CNC Head
« Reply #27 on: February 11, 2008, 04:43:56 PM »
nice job...by looking at the pictures i noticed the use of stock valve guides...if you haven't pushed them in,it means that your selection in lift is somehow limited to 0.385 or a tad more...keeping in mind that this will be a big motor that needs to breath a lot,somebody will be playing serious games with duration in dependence with the lower crank/rod ratio numbers...considering that the piston will be taking its time up top...interesting...

keep us posted... :thumb:
frankly my dear,i don't give a damn...

Offline Competition CNC

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Re: 1507 Build and Development of New CNC Head
« Reply #28 on: February 11, 2008, 05:04:42 PM »
nice job...by looking at the pictures i noticed the use of stock valve guides...if you haven't pushed them in,it means that your selection in lift is somehow limited to 0.385 or a tad more...keeping in mind that this will be a big motor that needs to breath a lot,somebody will be playing serious games with duration in dependence with the lower crank/rod ratio numbers...considering that the piston will be taking its time up top...interesting...

keep us posted... :thumb:

Actually we did move the guides down to acomadate the cams selected.   
Jim

Offline midnight black man

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Re: 1507 Build and Development of New CNC Head
« Reply #29 on: February 11, 2008, 05:33:25 PM »
nice job...by looking at the pictures i noticed the use of stock valve guides...if you haven't pushed them in,it means that your selection in lift is somehow limited to 0.385 or a tad more...keeping in mind that this will be a big motor that needs to breath a lot,somebody will be playing serious games with duration in dependence with the lower crank/rod ratio numbers...considering that the piston will be taking its time up top...interesting...

keep us posted... :thumb:

Actually we did move the guides down to acomadate the cams selected.   

so,i wasted a couple of million brain sells for nothing... :P
frankly my dear,i don't give a damn...

Offline Competition CNC

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Re: 1507 Build and Development of New CNC Head
« Reply #30 on: February 17, 2008, 07:37:11 AM »
Quote
  so,i wasted a couple of million brain sells for nothing... :P

:) na thinking is never a waste....
Jim

Offline Steve S

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Re: 1507 Build and Development of New CNC Head
« Reply #31 on: February 19, 2008, 01:20:10 PM »
Last week we received the cases which had been sent to Rick Stetson at Harry's Machine Shop to be align honed.....alignment of the crankshaft bore.... and have certain oiling modifications performed. Now all we need is the friggin crank.

Offline enginetuna

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Re: 1507 Build and Development of New CNC Head
« Reply #32 on: February 27, 2008, 04:15:26 PM »
Any news or developments?  Its been so long i've been wondering if the first gen of stage 2 has maybe not worked and gone back to the drawing board :wink:

Offline Steve S

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Re: 1507 Build and Development of New CNC Head
« Reply #33 on: February 27, 2008, 04:45:55 PM »
ET....(.I believe Tim as well.)..........a much larger order of billet cranks were placed in front of our order and we now expect to receive the crank on Friday. But Bryan, wrench spinner extraordinaire, is heading to Valdosta, Ga for the first Prostar race to lend support to a couple of our bikes. That said, we should have some numbers in about three weeks. And whatever the outcome, we will go out of our way to post objective results with all relevant test conditions. BTW, I chuckled when I read yoiur post. :D

Offline enginetuna

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Re: 1507 Build and Development of New CNC Head
« Reply #34 on: February 27, 2008, 05:00:34 PM »
BTW, I chuckled when I read yoiur post. :D
Ha, me too.  Its the kind of thing i hear all the time.  Like i only do one engine a year ....... and development is always a huge earner ........
Those inlet ports look like some factory kwacka ones i saw, not like suzuki anymore.

Offline gnd111

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Re: 1507 Build and Development of New CNC Head
« Reply #35 on: February 27, 2008, 07:34:42 PM »
Steve S - what bikes will you have at Prostar?

Offline Steve S

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Re: 1507 Build and Development of New CNC Head
« Reply #36 on: February 28, 2008, 10:38:37 AM »
Gnd, they are customer bikes. Jeff Shively in Top Gas, P. Cooper in Super Sport and a third that I cannot say anything about at this writing.

Offline gnd111

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Re: 1507 Build and Development of New CNC Head
« Reply #37 on: February 28, 2008, 07:39:55 PM »
Cool.  Just wanted to see who to look for...

Offline enginetuna

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Re: 1507 Build and Development of New CNC Head
« Reply #38 on: March 21, 2008, 08:32:05 AM »
I heard that too.  I hate rumours, mostly BS.  So how's it going guys?  Intrigued to hear.

Offline Steve S

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Re: 1507 Build and Development of New CNC Head
« Reply #39 on: March 21, 2008, 08:41:30 AM »
As it turns out, we are building two 1507's............one for a customer and one for me. Testing on the customer bike is pretty much done and the dyno results are linked below.

The  first and lower pull was done with an exhaust cam and lobe centers that we had reservations about but did not want to over scavenge the cylinder with a bigger camshaft. The results from the first combination are OK but clearly below what we feel the potential of a 1507 might be.

There were several indications that there were bottlenecks on the exhaust side and that we were incurring pumping losses and losing VE. In the course of one day Bryan dropped the engine, reshimmed the head and installed a larger exhaust cam with a different centerline.

As can be seen, the results of this change is dramatic.............now making almost 240 HP. This is with a stock valve head, flat top pistons, sidewinder, MRX01 and 30 psi in the rear tire.

How do we evaluate this? Computer simulation models suggest 240 to 241. A couple of informed members have suggested 230 to 240 to be the capacity of a 1507. One member reported getting 238 from a 1507 built by a prominent engine builder.

Ina Dragbike.Com article Lee Shierts got 242.5 out of a big valve 1507 but we know his dyno reads differently than ours based upon results with almost stock bikes.

Probably the best measure, though, is comparing this 1507 with our very proven 1397's. We typically get 220 out of a 1397 and this works out to 157.5 HP per liter; using similar math with a 1507 that puts out 239, it works out to 158.6 per liter.

Thus, we are very satisfied with the combination and want to extend Jim of Competition CNC a special thanks for his assistance in designing and developing this package. We will post the results for my bike as they become available.






Offline enginetuna

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Re: 1507 Build and Development of New CNC Head
« Reply #40 on: March 21, 2008, 08:52:04 AM »
Awesome results, thanks for posting.
Did you get around to testing it on pump fuel?  I have no frame of reference with race fuel or any idea what mrox is worth.

Offline BRYAN

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Re: 1507 Build and Development of New CNC Head
« Reply #41 on: March 21, 2008, 10:59:02 AM »
Typically MRX01 is worth 5-7 over pump gas.

Offline enginetuna

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Re: 1507 Build and Development of New CNC Head
« Reply #42 on: March 21, 2008, 11:07:25 AM »
Great, thanks.

The midrange is good compared to many of the other graphs i've seen posted on the net and still makes the peak as well so job well done. :thumb:

Offline Spaz Racing

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Re: 1507 Build and Development of New CNC Head
« Reply #43 on: March 21, 2008, 01:06:11 PM »
If  am correct U took a one battery starting 1397cc with shelf pistons two base gaskets spaz racing head small cams 385"/345" and it made 224hp went to a 1507cc with a 5mm crank, special two ring pistons comp.cnc ported head big cams 425"/395" and it pick up 15hp.

Hummm..... Interesting. :sprz:

Offline Busa Quick

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Re: 1507 Build and Development of New CNC Head
« Reply #44 on: March 21, 2008, 02:42:37 PM »
If  am correct U took a one battery starting 1397cc with shelf pistons two base gaskets spaz racing head small cams 385"/345" and it made 224hp went to a 1507cc with a 5mm crank, special two ring pistons comp.cnc ported head big cams 425"/395" and it pick up 15hp.

Hummm..... Interesting. :sprz:



But what was the average torque of the 1397? Was it "peaky", the 1507 looks like it builds good torque early and holds it for a long time. That kind of performance has got to make it easy to stay in the meat of the power range.


Mark

Black and Purple 04, MY MODS: Turbo, .08 spacer, s2000 injectors, yosh cams 7.2 spring, heavy clutch springs, APE valve springs, raised rev limiter to 11,500 rpm with ignition cut only, using only stock ECM with Petrik reprogramming method,

Offline BRYAN

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Re: 1507 Build and Development of New CNC Head
« Reply #45 on: March 21, 2008, 03:23:58 PM »
If  am correct U took a one battery starting 1397cc with shelf pistons two base gaskets spaz racing head small cams 385"/345" and it made 224hp went to a 1507cc with a 5mm crank, special two ring pistons comp.cnc ported head big cams 425"/395" and it pick up 15hp.

Hummm..... Interesting. :sprz:


That particular engine never made more than 220 HP on our dyno...........but did make more on another dyno in Coloumbus. The 1397 that made 229 HP is one-off engine which incorporated a number of proprietary parts and was built with racing clearances and was never designed to be a daily rider. As to the 1507 we just built, it should be comapred to our 220 HP 1397 package.

Offline BRYAN

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Re: 1507 Build and Development of New CNC Head
« Reply #46 on: March 21, 2008, 03:41:03 PM »
Hartley, who built your 1397 and what did it make when you tested the engine with Brock in Dayton? We can secure access to your run files.

Offline Steve S

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Re: 1507 Build and Development of New CNC Head
« Reply #47 on: March 21, 2008, 04:39:33 PM »
Hartley, the point that you are missing is that we represent our 1397's as making 220 HP; the chart you are referring is of a unique 1397 that in all honesty we are having difficulty replicating. And the chart was posted in the context of a discussion about small ports.

Ask Jim, ET, Lee, Kevin or Bob if they have ever built a "freak" that is difficult to reproduce. Most will answer yes and this is why "ranges" are frequently used, particularly for the more complicated packages.

And that is why when we posted the results of Jim's Stage 1 Hayabusa head, we compared the results to more typical 1397's.

Thus, the 1507 must be compared our more typical 1397's; you are failing to understand this distinction or you are trying to discredit the incremental gain of our 1507 package. With this, you will hopefully understand.

If you want us to dyno your bike free of charge, call Bryan. Tuning would be extra.
« Last Edit: March 21, 2008, 04:44:15 PM by Steve S »

Offline DaveO

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Re: 1507 Build and Development of New CNC Head
« Reply #48 on: March 21, 2008, 06:02:31 PM »
A "good" 1507 will make around 240hp/132 ft lbs of torque... My Maxton bike makes low 240's on MRX01 with med cams/compression....it is designed for AVERAGE power...not just peak....

A good 1397 will make around 220hp/120ft/lbs....I have built/tuned several that made more than 220 on MR9....unfortunately most did not live long for LSR stuff...

I have tuned 1390's with everyones heads...including Spaz's(which did well...), and most average 215-218....The only one I have seen break 230 was one done by Dustin/Eric/Matt years ago for Shane from Tx.....that didnt live too long I think....

Peak power is just that...and really useless for most drag racers......IMO....

I have seen 1507's around 250...grudge stuff for 1/4 only....

Bottom  Steve/Spaz/Bhartley is ALL your stuff seems to be what I consider GOOD results.....

The torque from the larger motor is the key IMO.....

Dave
220.312 at Maxton...ALL MOTOR

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Offline DarkFalcon

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Re: 1507 Build and Development of New CNC Head
« Reply #49 on: March 21, 2008, 06:09:14 PM »
As should be expected, an informative post from Dave that nicely frames the discussion. :thumb: