Stroker bearing failure

[osti33]

thats the way I do it also works fine, no damage to the bearing.....

Me too. Seems to work the best for me.

[THE ICE MAN]

crazy bill,
man o man, you have great experience!

I don't have set rings, but i do have a digital Mitutoyo mic which reads to 1/2 a tenth.  I set and lock the Mit-mic on the target then calibrate my Mitutoyo bore gauge to 0 at that target.  The Mit-bore gauge has  relatively wide .0001" graduations and i can pretty easily reproduce within .0001".

It's the depth of penetration of the boregauge into the bearing surface which surprised the hell outa me!

Karl get yourself a boregauge with different anvils so they will not dig in the bearings.
Sal.

hey Sal,
i will sure get some anvils with bigger diameter ball bearings in 'em, but i don't measure the installed bearing anymore. 

I have converted to measuring the rod or case bearing mount (without bearings installed) after tqing it, then measuring the thickness of ea shell and coming up with a calculated ID.  This seems to work fine.

 

[mike46]

crazy bill,
man o man, you have great experience!

I don't have set rings, but i do have a digital Mitutoyo mic which reads to 1/2 a tenth.  I set and lock the Mit-mic on the target then calibrate my Mitutoyo bore gauge to 0 at that target.  The Mit-bore gauge has  relatively wide .0001" graduations and i can pretty easily reproduce within .0001".

It's the depth of penetration of the boregauge into the bearing surface which surprised the hell outa me!

Karl get yourself a boregauge with different anvils so they will not dig in the bearings.
Sal.

hey Sal,
i will sure get some anvils with bigger diameter ball bearings in 'em, but i don't measure the installed bearing anymore. 

I have converted to measuring the rod or case bearing mount (without bearings installed) after tqing it, then measuring the thickness of ea shell and coming up with a calculated ID.  This seems to work fine.

You using a blade mic or an anvil ball attachment to measure the bearing? I guess a tube mic would too.

[entropy]

crazy bill,
man o man, you have great experience!

I don't have set rings, but i do have a digital Mitutoyo mic which reads to 1/2 a tenth.  I set and lock the Mit-mic on the target then calibrate my Mitutoyo bore gauge to 0 at that target.  The Mit-bore gauge has  relatively wide .0001" graduations and i can pretty easily reproduce within .0001".

It's the depth of penetration of the boregauge into the bearing surface which surprised the hell outa me!

Karl get yourself a boregauge with different anvils so they will not dig in the bearings.
Sal.

hey Sal,
i will sure get some anvils with bigger diameter ball bearings in 'em, but i don't measure the installed bearing anymore. 

I have converted to measuring the rod or case bearing mount (without bearings installed) after tqing it, then measuring the thickness of ea shell and coming up with a calculated ID.  This seems to work fine.

You using a blade mic or an anvil ball attachment to measure the bearing? I guess a tube mic would too.

anvil ball attachment

[gazza414]

I had a customer recently say that plasti gauge was more accurate than a mic....
He had a bearing failure and I was redoing the motor, He said the shop he was using for years usung nothing but plasti gauge and they build the fastest stuff around period.....

Now Im not going to say the reason that he had a bearing failure was from the plasti gauge,or that the 12k miles on the stock rods had something to do with it either.....

I find it funny as hell that at least half the shops out there cant even read a mic..
If you were putting a car motor together you could get away with using guesta gauge, because the clearances are much larger than the motorcycles.....How the hell do you measure .0001-.0002 with a piece of plastic...
I also just recently bought a big block from a well know builder that designed and ran off a few sets, I cant tell you how many people swore by his work being state of the art precision......
Well needless to say I am very unhappy with the block, and his work.....The bore centers arent even right, and im not talkin about 2 or 3 thou, im talkin like .015...And than when i spoke to him about it, his excuse was that it for unshrouding valves, ya, ok so why the hell are they all different.............thats when I heard the crickets.........
Very few people can do machine work correctly, if there doing it cheap, its for a reason..............

not good news...is it being returned? any other reports if this is common OR wouldn't most take the time to CHECK?...

[Competition CNC]

Karl, if you saw some of the "fresh" machine work and or engines come thru our shop you would be checking everything.

When we get engines from certain other shops to break-in and tune on the dyno we all cringe during the pulls. 

[whtrthanu]

most guys probably arent even checking it............Im sure it will run ok and have no problems, its the point that it was engineered from zero so it should be on point with accuracy...it also could be that his bore centers were right, they were just roughed in, and millenium messed it up when the finished up the boring and honing....i ve had to return a set of harley cylinders that were messed up from them........they replaced them with new sleeves, so they are a stand up company, thats why I still use them......shit happens, but it shouldnt on a $2200 billet block

[gazza414]

To get the variations you mentioned I'd suggest the block has moved on the fixture whilst being "roughed" out. 15 thou  hurts......no mention of a replacement for peace of mind ?   how ya going for piston pin boss clearance on the rods you are using?

[enginetuna]

I see this crazing on the bearing surfaces a lot.  it gets worse the tighter the piston to head clearance and also seems to be oil related.  Run motul and almost never see this, but motors come in that i've done with some other oils and its real bad for exactly the same build and clearance.  Changing oil pumps and pressure relief valve release pressure has not changed the wear.
The pictures on page 1 also look like the journal surface is not flat from the wear patterns.  Also looks like clearance is too loose because polishing is predominantly at the end of the crank throw.
I recently had welded 5mm throw a rod for no apparent reason.  I would say a journal problem looking at it.  Never had a problem with falicons 5mm billet stuff so always insist the customer goes that route if they want me to build it.

Here are the shells from an R6 i recently stripped.

[whtrthanu]

et, was this a virgin 600 motor?, and were they running the motul oil in it............

[enginetuna]

Yes stock motor that had done some trackdays.  Not motul, not sure what was in it, one of the red ones.

[whtrthanu]

you like the motul that much?..........does it completely remove the bearing marks? or just help

[enginetuna]

Yep sure do.  Of all the oils i've tried, which is not all of them i must add, its shown the least wear time and time again.  I took one of my supersport motors apart the other week that had been on motul for the last 10 hours and it had the very slightest signs of this crazing still but 2 pistons had just clipped the head.  Not seen it on the previous 3 motul teardowns on the same spec motor.

[whtrthanu]

have you done any dyno testing with oils............I know I have seen some power from amsoil, I use it in my streetbike and my customers streetbikes, but as far as my race motors i change it too often and it gets expensive...
i use penzoil most of the time, seems to be ok, but it shows small signs of wear on the uncoated bearings.......I might give the motul a try, my friend swears by it also..........
do you use the full synthetic or the blend

[enginetuna]

With a bit of luck i will be testing various weights of motul in the next week or so.  Will let you know how that goes.
As the season progresses i also want to try and log oil temp and pressure of the different weights on track.  Engines get torn down every 10 hours so i can also observe wear rates with the light vs thick oils.
Not tested the motul versus other oils but the motors i'm running on 300V do appear to be a couple of bhp up on what they used to be.
Many motogp and superbike teams run it.
Time is our enemy, especially this time of year.

[mountainmotor]

Not tested the motul versus other oils but the motors i'm running on 300V do appear to be a couple of bhp up on what they used to be.
Many motogp and superbike teams run it.

Most likely playing with Colloidal versions , as in suspension of sub-micronic solid lubricants , for the GP guys . Just guesssing they are not worried about whats happening in terms of the pics you posted since they crossed that bridge before .

The associated problem"s" of the bearings you posted comes with terminology attached to it stemming from past analytical studies .  I'll send what I can about whats going on to the email address in your profile . This could be a time saver for you and by the way , your one observant guy !

[Rocketgeezer]

crazy bill,
man o man, you have great experience!

I don't have set rings, but i do have a digital Mitutoyo mic which reads to 1/2 a tenth.  I set and lock the Mit-mic on the target then calibrate my Mitutoyo bore gauge to 0 at that target.  The Mit-bore gauge has  relatively wide .0001" graduations and i can pretty easily reproduce within .0001".

It's the depth of penetration of the boregauge into the bearing surface which surprised the hell outa me!

Karl get yourself a boregauge with different anvils so they will not dig in the bearings.
Sal.

hey Sal,
i will sure get some anvils with bigger diameter ball bearings in 'em, but i don't measure the installed bearing anymore. 

I have converted to measuring the rod or case bearing mount (without bearings installed) after tqing it, then measuring the thickness of ea shell and coming up with a calculated ID.  This seems to work fine.

ben doing it that way for years never had any marked bearings

[enginetuna]

Not tested the motul versus other oils but the motors i'm running on 300V do appear to be a couple of bhp up on what they used to be.
Many motogp and superbike teams run it.

Most likely playing with Colloidal versions , as in suspension of sub-micronic solid lubricants , for the GP guys . Just guesssing they are not worried about whats happening in terms of the pics you posted since they crossed that bridge before .

The associated problem"s" of the bearings you posted comes with terminology attached to it stemming from past analytical studies .  I'll send what I can about whats going on to the email address in your profile . This could be a time saver for you and by the way , your one observant guy !

Thanks, i look forward to receiving that.  not many people with useful data seem to want to share it

[winger1]

The etching on the bearing surface in the pics is the result of corrosive acids building up in the oil.  This is common when running E85 or high ethanol fuel.

Have you installed an oil cooler bypass or relocator kit?

[Gixx1300R]

Built several stokers.
Crank is stroked, mikronited and Nikasiled. All journals are checked for roundness before assembly.
Rods are assembled with extra rod bolts( dont use the ones that will be in the final assembly) and are torqued down to checked the bore
Empty cases are torqued to spec to check the case bores for the crank
Oiling mods are done to the cases for  higher oil volume and oil pressure
Bearing are coated. Triple check the bearing before coating. Some bearings are knicked right out of the box.
Check the weight of the con rods, wrist pins and Pistons. Match the weight
I will never use Falicon, had too many issues with them in the past. A.P.E or Marine

[BUSA750]

what was the oil pressure,this is the reason why i ask



I thought i had good oil pressure found out the hard way be carefully of these aftermarket parts

[Lumpasaurus]

Great read, thanks for bringing that back to life.