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Author Topic: Larger airbox for big motors....fact or fiction?  (Read 43297 times)

Offline gazza414

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Re: Larger airbox for big motors....fact or fiction?
« Reply #75 on: April 14, 2008, 06:32:43 PM »
Gazza - do you know these guys to get more specs just for curiosity ?



Pics sent Petri to your home addy
« Last Edit: April 14, 2008, 06:34:18 PM by gazza414 »
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Offline DarkFalcon

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Re: Larger airbox for big motors....fact or fiction?
« Reply #76 on: April 14, 2008, 06:38:12 PM »
PetriK more or less caused me to have an interest in better understanding what Suzuki had in mind when they designed the 1300. I created an EAP file for the 1300 using all the stock data I could get my hands on and ran a number of simulations.

Then I focused upon intake tract length as this has been a subject of much discussion. The port itself has a length of 4.7" and the balance of the runner, including short stacks, is around 5.6" which makes for a total of 10.3". To eliminate some of the acoustical effects introduced by the radius of the stack, a friend suggested reducing the runner length .5"............making the stock effective runner length 5.1".

After playing with it a bit longer, it became immediately apparent that the broader the RPM range under consideration the more the engine will like longer runners; conversely, the more you focus upon higher RPM's the more the engine will favor shorter runners. EAP allows you to filter simulations using any number of engine performance parameters and I used average horsepower........not peak. Peak will always favor shorter runners.

The image below is pretty self explanatory and seems to support the thesis that Suzuki wanted to optimize average horsepower over a fairly broad range when designing the Hayabusa. The "chains" shown below are ranked according to average horspower over the indicated RPM range.

I must say I'm impressed with ability of EAP to pinpoint the length of the runner and anticipate the location of peak power. Based upon this exercise, PetriK should be able to realize gains from 8800 RPM and up.

Don't get to hung up on the power estimate themselves as they are crank numbers and reflect some other items, including fuel, that would inflate stock/factory results.

« Last Edit: April 14, 2008, 07:32:26 PM by DarkFalcon »

Offline gazza414

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Re: Larger airbox for big motors....fact or fiction?
« Reply #77 on: April 14, 2008, 09:28:29 PM »
Petri , do you know ,  or aware of ,anyone else who has taken the plunge and shortened the intake tract att he cyl head flange ? in order to follow a simulation ?

DF how much confidence would you place in the output of EAP ? given the other input variables?

Petri on the V8 those intakes butterflies may well be MAF's...I cant tell from the pics I'm afraid
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Offline PetriK

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Re: Larger airbox for big motors....fact or fiction?
« Reply #78 on: April 15, 2008, 12:37:23 AM »
Petri , do you know ,  or aware of ,anyone else who has taken the plunge and shortened the intake tract att he cyl head flange ? in order to follow a simulation ?

No. We did a trial with a damaged head and now the real head is in a machine shop for this excersise to investigate the methods. After that we discussed this in length with my builder and after I convinced him about this idea he admitted that there is enough space to make the intake port shorter for well beyond 0.4" maybe up to 0.6" - but as I can gain additional 0.2" from the stacks decided to keep the head in 0..4" range.

Even you asked from DF, having run 4 different engines with known dyno data I am convinced that there may be some truth in EAP.

Offline DarkFalcon

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Re: Larger airbox for big motors....fact or fiction?
« Reply #79 on: April 15, 2008, 07:19:21 AM »
Petri , do you know ,  or aware of ,anyone else who has taken the plunge and shortened the intake tract att he cyl head flange ? in order to follow a simulation ?

DF how much confidence would you place in the output of EAP ? given the other input variables?

Petri on the V8 those intakes butterflies may well be MAF's...I cant tell from the pics I'm afraid

I'm not quite sure Gazza as I have not used it that extensively.

And to do a simulation, it sucks up a lot of definition data that is not immediately available.........like bearing dimensions, head flow and valve train component weight. It offers trending vectors that make sense and in the example of the stock Busa exercise it was more or less nuts on. That said, I would have to use it on a couple of more engines..........with all of the data.........to get a real warm and fuzzy feeling about the program.

I would also have to perform various sensitivity anayses with various detailed components and measure the results against what I feel to be "the truth".
As I mentioned to PetriK, I would not use the program for establishing average port diameters or average port sectional areas (there is no provision for window or minimum CSA) as I am sure the program is based upon 2v automobiles and does like port speeds over 300 ft/sec.

With respect to runner length, my gut feel is that PetriK will realize gains in the higher RPM bands. And I respect his willingness to incur the expense and take on the risk, to push the envelop. :thumb:


Offline glenn71

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Re: Larger airbox for big motors....fact or fiction?
« Reply #80 on: April 23, 2008, 04:45:12 PM »
just did a pb with my large airbox mod and short stacks.wanted 6 points more fuel up top.I worked on the principle of less disturbed airflow meant less intake restriction.Felt like a new set of lungs.
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Offline Jonny Hotnuts

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Offline glenn71

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Re: Larger airbox for big motors....fact or fiction?
« Reply #82 on: September 17, 2011, 08:15:38 PM »
ive been logging my iap sensor on my 1507 engine
and i have an aussie made carbon airbox with large
flat filter and larger intake snorkels.on the dyno
 the map signal is basically zero vacuum at wot
till about 5000rpm,above that the map signal climbs
to about 8mb of vacuum on the dyno.when it was a 1441
i logged approx 1mb vacuum in 4th gear with a heavily modified
gen1 airbox of similar shape(my test mule airbox).so the ram air
gave me 7mb?.it doesnt equate because the dyno
a/f of 13:1 becomes 13.5-6:1 in 4th on the track,ill
be running the carbon box which is of improved
design at the track soon,will see what its map
results are.so basically on the dyno a hayabusa
airbox on the dyno will run at negative pressure above
95-100hp.another point ignored here is turbulence and velocity.
with a stock airbox the torque under 5000 is better
because of air speed in the airbox.with the 1507
with 150cc ports i get away with the big box because
the intake ports are working better at a low rpm.i did
some tuning work on a 1299cc motor with 12:1 comp,yosh cams
and headwork ,and i had to run long stacks,low octane fuel
and more timing to lift the torque of the motor
up below 7000 with only losses over 11000 with a large airbox mod. i put the stock
airbox back on and the torque at 4000 picked up even more but
was nosing over prob 500rpm sooner. so from large airbox and small
stacks right back to stock airbox was best for the road
large airbox and longer stacks was the quickest
at the strip.9.1@152mph 1465mm wheelbase
gen1.
Gen1 the original and the best
8.76@165.42mph so far

Offline glenn71

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Re: Larger airbox for big motors....fact or fiction?
« Reply #83 on: September 18, 2011, 01:35:53 AM »
This thing gets interesting as the airbox is in the middle of two resonating spring mass systems: one between the intake snorkels and the airbox and the other between the airbox, throttle bodies and runners and cylinders. The first effect, which appears to be very sensitive to airbox volume, appears to occur at lower RPM's while the second effect appears to occur around the RPM of peak torque. Between the two, the latter is more useful and important as an engine design tool.
i can confirm this theory,i did a dynopull with and
without the intake snorkels fitted and without
the snorkels fitted it lost bottom to midrange torque.
Gen1 the original and the best
8.76@165.42mph so far

Offline glenn71

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Re: Larger airbox for big motors....fact or fiction?
« Reply #84 on: September 18, 2011, 02:50:53 AM »
i plan i trying 07 gixxer 1000 flush stacks next
 and see how it responds on my 1507.with
a little throttle body port matching,the gen2/gixxer 1000
stacks with their 52mm id instead of 48mm
id,clamp down quite nicely on gen1 throttle bodies.
you have to reduce the holesize into the airbox for the gen2
stacks down to 60mm but the other benefit
is the airbox sits about 5-7mm lower so u can fit
a taller airbox under the tank if your keen. :tu:
Gen1 the original and the best
8.76@165.42mph so far