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Author Topic: Decreasing rake anybody done it?  (Read 16528 times)

Offline canyon carver

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Decreasing rake anybody done it?
« on: April 29, 2008, 10:47:01 PM »
Allready raised the rear and lowered the front, still need eh....less!!!! any answers or ideas? :?: :?: :?: :?: :?: :?:
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Offline Mospeada

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Re: Decreasing rake anybody done it?
« Reply #1 on: April 30, 2008, 01:27:05 PM »
You got a 750 swing arm, right? Man, I wouldn't mind seeing this bike. How far do you want to go?!

Take your shock links to a machine shop, have them make you a custom set that's 1/4 inch short.

190/55/17 tire? Maybe even a 190/60 that I've seen.

Remember the Hayabusa X-1? I'm sure that thing still has ideas on it we haven't thought of.
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Offline canyon carver

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Re: Decreasing rake anybody done it?
« Reply #2 on: April 30, 2008, 06:14:48 PM »
Allready did the machine shop dog bones, maxed out. Going to drop the front another 1/4" and see if the body can clear the road. If it works I need to get a new handle bar mount that slides over the forks. The forks are bottomed out on the stock one and I really don't want to raise my bars. Unfortunately with an aftermarket mount the bars are pushed forward about a half an inch so......I would also need to get heli-bars and re-drill to get them back to stock position (moving horizontally instead of vertically).
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Offline Mospeada

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Re: Decreasing rake anybody done it?
« Reply #3 on: April 30, 2008, 07:10:30 PM »
Wait, I want to make sure, you're setting this bike up for handling, right? Not drag....
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Offline canyon carver

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Re: Decreasing rake anybody done it?
« Reply #4 on: April 30, 2008, 07:27:06 PM »
Quote from: Mospeada on April 30, 2008, 07:10:30 PM
Wait, I want to make sure, you're setting this bike up for handling, right? Not drag....

Canyon good, chicken strips bad. Just took a few new pics, will email in a few. I like watching liter bikes dissappear in my mirrors. 
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Offline Mospeada

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Re: Decreasing rake anybody done it?
« Reply #5 on: April 30, 2008, 07:48:23 PM »
Then you know as well as I do, do everything you can, then take the bike to the track (road course) for a track day. Then, while you're there, have the suspension guys help you dial it in. I know a lot about suspension and the general 'right' direction, but when it comes down to it, those guys really know how to help you out.

Set it up, go out, come back in and tell then how you feel, how the bike performed, make adjustments, go back out and repeat until you are a Happy Camper.

But it does sound like you're dropping the front a lot. I had this same problem, because my front end was pushing in the corners, meaning the front would stray wide. Culprit was old, burnt fork oil. New oil, seals, and some preload in the shock, and the bike was back to being a badass again.
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Offline Mospeada

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Re: Decreasing rake anybody done it?
« Reply #6 on: April 30, 2008, 07:57:03 PM »
Damn, dude, just saw the pictures, bike looks great! Gotta love the Silver/Ti's!!!

Can you get a lighter exhaust mount, and ditch the other rear set?
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Offline canyon carver

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Re: Decreasing rake anybody done it?
« Reply #7 on: April 30, 2008, 08:00:24 PM »
Been there, my track set up is mucho different than the canyons. Just made arrangements with a friend on a 08 Gsxr 1000 for a suspension afternoon on Friday. Same road 10 billion times.
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Offline Ardec2

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Re: Decreasing rake anybody done it?
« Reply #8 on: May 01, 2008, 09:24:45 AM »
I believe that lowering the front of the bike is a mistake in a canyon carving bike,  as it does alot more then decreases the rake ! Obviously as the rake angle gets smaller the bike will steer quicker, BUT Rake and trail along with weight distribution work together.  Generally speaking if you reduce the rake angle you need to make the trail longer!

Rake makes for quicker steering but trail adds stability and line holding!

I ride alot of customers bikes that have been lowered in the front,.. to me I don't like it!  These bikes seem to be harder to turn in and lean over and once they are leaned over feel like they want to fall over and require alot more countersteer pressure.

I prefer to raise both front and rear together,.. and that is indeed what most road racers do!  In a side note  Jeremy Burgess (Valentino Rossi's crew chief) has said "If you raise the bike you must lengthen the swing arm"   
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Offline mike46

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Re: Decreasing rake anybody done it?
« Reply #9 on: May 01, 2008, 11:34:03 AM »
Quote from: Ardec2 on May 01, 2008, 09:24:45 AM
I believe that lowering the front of the bike is a mistake in a canyon carving bike,  as it does alot more then decreases the rake ! Obviously as the rake angle gets smaller the bike will steer quicker, BUT Rake and trail along with weight distribution work together.  Generally speaking if you reduce the rake angle you need to make the trail longer!

I remember Kaz Yoshima did that (increased trail) with his triple clamps for the original 900RR. It made a nice difference in regard to stability and it still turned in very well.
« Last Edit: May 02, 2008, 06:46:37 AM by mike46 »
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Offline canyon carver

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Re: Decreasing rake anybody done it?
« Reply #10 on: May 01, 2008, 10:10:21 PM »
Busa Rake and trail is 24.2/97
GSXR 1000 "          " 23.5/91
Steeper is faster (less stable)
Less trail is faster (less stable)
I'm at my machinist tomorrow and will find out what dropping the front really means at 1/4" and 1/2" understanding that I've allready raised the rear 7/8" ( taken from a center line taped to tail light)
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Offline canyon carver

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Re: Decreasing rake anybody done it?
« Reply #11 on: May 14, 2008, 08:30:46 PM »
Keeping it at 10mm, it's a little nervous but the turn in makes it worth it. I can't see dropping the front or raising the rear any more. Save shedding more pounds I think this is about as much as I can ask out of this bike. Then again I may try a 55 on the rear if it can get me over more!!!
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Offline canyon carver

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Re: Decreasing rake anybody done it?
« Reply #12 on: May 14, 2008, 08:32:42 PM »
I put a couple pics of the 750 swingarm in Mods
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Offline CADDYWOMPUS

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Re: Decreasing rake anybody done it?
« Reply #13 on: June 06, 2008, 04:31:07 PM »
i think you need to accept the busa for what it is. A bike thats too heavey ,to long and undersprung .  Good for some things but not others .A great bike none the less.  Consider a gixxer 750 as second bike and be done with it.
 This isnt  a knock on the busa but wouldnt it make sense to ride a bike thats designed to do the task at hand. 

Just rambling here :lol:
« Last Edit: June 06, 2008, 04:38:48 PM by zzr12pete »
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Offline SPARKY1397R

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Re: Decreasing rake anybody done it?
« Reply #14 on: June 06, 2008, 04:52:37 PM »
i actually think it's kinda neat to build a busa into something a 750/1000 rider can fear in turns. 

 :thumb:
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Offline CADDYWOMPUS

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Re: Decreasing rake anybody done it?
« Reply #15 on: June 06, 2008, 04:58:54 PM »
Quote from: sparky1397r on June 06, 2008, 04:52:37 PM
i actually think it's kinda neat to build a busa into something a 750/1000 rider can fear in turns. 

 :thumb:

When you come across  a 750 with  a pilot that can really ride you'll have your hands full.
« Last Edit: June 06, 2008, 05:01:22 PM by zzr12pete »
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Offline canyon carver

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Re: Decreasing rake anybody done it?
« Reply #16 on: June 07, 2008, 08:51:27 PM »
Quote from: zzr12pete on June 06, 2008, 04:58:54 PM
Quote from: sparky1397r on June 06, 2008, 04:52:37 PM
i actually think it's kinda neat to build a busa into something a 750/1000 rider can fear in turns. 

 :thumb:

When you come across a 750 with a pilot that can really ride you'll have your hands full.
Quote from: zzr12pete on June 06, 2008, 04:31:07 PM
i think you need to accept the busa for what it is. A bike thats too heavey ,to long and undersprung .  Good for some things but not others .A great bike none the less.  Consider a gixxer 750 as second bike and be done with it.
 This isnt  a knock on the busa but wouldnt it make sense to ride a bike thats designed to do the task at hand. 

Just rambling here :lol:
There is no doubt a 750 could kick my butt in the twistys, but.... if they're over 35mph I'll kill em coming out of the apex to the next turn. At 487lbs full the 300+ pound 750 will make up time on me slowing into the next turn but again I'll get him at the apex........in the end I win. Now a liter bike will kill me everywhere with a seasoned rider under 195lbs. A 240lb rider would be a fairly even match. All and all I only know of one 750 that can get me but for every hour I spend in the canyons he spends six. I get a few runs with him every couple of months and allways seem to pick up something new. There's nothing like riding with someone faster, I........like it. Learning are good! My bike is set up for canyons and undoubtedly there are many that can pass me but the majority of them won't be riding by the end of summer (squids). It's one thing to be fast today, another to sustain it. I could surely buy a gsxr 1000 and be done with it, but what does it really mean, it's more fun kickin butt on a Busa. They never see it comin. You shouldn't accept anything for what it is when you have the ability to change it into what it can be. For instance the difference in a light set of wheels can do wonders for any bike.
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Offline CADDYWOMPUS

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Re: Decreasing rake anybody done it?
« Reply #17 on: June 07, 2008, 10:32:30 PM »
 Well you can drive a nail with a big cresent wrench but a hammer works better. :lol:
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Offline canyon carver

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Re: Decreasing rake anybody done it?
« Reply #18 on: June 16, 2008, 03:33:53 PM »
I went back to the 5mm in front, the 10-15% of under 25mph turns that it helped weren't worth the nervous nature everywhere else. I did move to a 190/55 which seems to accomplish the same thing without the nervousness. I'm having a hard time understanding it in that the tire is raising the rear more than the 10mm I had lowered the front. I would have thought the bike (set back at 5mm) with the 55 would really effect stability but it seems more planted than ever. I've allways had to really work to stay up with the Liter bikes going down hill but now it feels like they're going slower (not). If any of you out there were considering a 55 series for the canyons I would deffinitely reccomend it. I also found that with my 50's where I wouldn't have any chicken strips the 55's showed about 1/4" with the same style riding. Getting rid of that 1/4" was to say the least exhilarating.
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Offline Mospeada

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Re: Decreasing rake anybody done it?
« Reply #19 on: June 16, 2008, 07:20:37 PM »
Curiousity, do you ever go to the track?

Just got back this weekend from Pahrump. Had Randy & Alex from In-House suspension set up my bike (after installing the Schnitz raising links). Bike feels 100 times better, I knew the suspension was off, but wasn't sure where to begin.

Going to get pics up soon. Want to get to another track day but we're now in the summer and the heat really goes up (Pahrump was 106 this weekend).
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Offline canyon carver

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Re: Decreasing rake anybody done it?
« Reply #20 on: June 17, 2008, 12:45:27 PM »
It's been over a year since I've been to the track and am starting to really miss it. I set my bike up with a 30mm sag front and rear but need to soften up the compression for the street. There's nothing better than a good tuner at the track. Really helps you set up the bike to your riding style. The only thing I'd reccomend is leaving the sag where they set it and note your changes in compression (especially the rear) on the street. You'll probably just end up taking a couple of clicks out of the compression and speed up the rebound. Just take your time increasing speed on the street, I see a 190/55 in your future. Did you drop the front?
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Offline Mospeada

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Re: Decreasing rake anybody done it?
« Reply #21 on: June 17, 2008, 04:44:00 PM »
I asked about the dropping the front and they suggested not doing it. Then I went into the whole "but my bike is 90 lbs lighter than stock blah blah blah...maybe we should drop the front blah blah blah...." and they said that with the raising links (Schnitz 1") and taller 180/55 tire, let's start with setting the suspension up first. So they took out (a lot) of preload both front and rear, messed with the comp/rebnd and told me to have at it and report back to them.

Went out, took it slow (well, slow for me as I'm very familiar with Pahrump) and just worked my way up. I was really nervous about expecting to feel the front end pushing, but it never did. Better still, the suspension was soaking up bumps on the track easily and felt really stable. That, and the turn in was great. Went from an almost full tank to an almost empty tank, and I was clocking faster and faster and faster.

Finally came in. I was hoping to break 2 minutes on the Busa, as, well, it's still a fat bike so ground clearance is a major issue on such a tight track. But got it down to a best clocked time of a little over 1.53. My best ever on my AMA 750 is 1.50.70, and I was damn near elbow down on that bike. So, to get inside of 3 seconds of my 750, suffice to say, made me REALLY DAMN HAPPY and convinced me that the bike was now finally dialed in suspension wise. There was a lot of my friends there that corner work, and race privately. There times averaged between 1.47's-1.50's.

I'm stoked.

Btw, I'm planning on heading up to LA in a couple of weeks so I'll keep you posted!
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Offline canyon carver

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Re: Decreasing rake anybody done it?
« Reply #22 on: June 17, 2008, 04:52:20 PM »
What did they set your pre load at?
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Offline Mospeada

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Re: Decreasing rake anybody done it?
« Reply #23 on: June 17, 2008, 04:56:30 PM »
If I remember correctly, 35 rear 33 front. I think.
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Offline canyon carver

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Re: Decreasing rake anybody done it?
« Reply #24 on: June 17, 2008, 05:00:19 PM »
 I like 30/30 but we all ride differently and my swingarm has a play. Did you hit your lower fairing in turns? I wasn't much for the 180/55, but I really-really-really like the 190/55. With your track times you have no choice. Also changed my speedo-healer accurate speedo from showing 56mph really doing 60mph.
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