Busa Stage 3 port testing....

[Competition CNC]

We just finished the development and static testing of the Hayabusa Stage 3 cnc port and valve job. Dyno testing will be in about 3weeks and real world testing will be at maxton at the end of June.  The test engine will be a 1607cc engine in June and a 1650cc engine shortly after that.  We are VERY optimistic on its performance potential at this point.

Just a few things to note, It has the smallest radial velocity bias of any cylinder head we have ever tested.  The average velocity at the MCSA is now solidly sub sonic so on a running engine it should translate into an extremely efficient port.

This head isnt for the average street guy, its an all out race head designed for max power above 9000 rpm.  We are planning on offering a slightly modified version for big displacement drag racing at some point.

I'll be at Maxton in June,  hope to see you guys there.

[TRNorBRN6001]

Cool, I just might need one of them!!!!! I'll check your site for pricing and what all is involved with the head.

Hope Karl does not come poking around the motor section, it would be funny to surpise him at Maxton. If you have not told him your headed to Maxton, Don't, he would get a kick out of the surprise. Goes for you too Ryan.

[DarkFalcon]

We just finished the development and static testing of the Hayabusa Stage 3 cnc port and valve job. We are VERY optimistic on its performance potential at this point.

Just a few things to note, It has the smallest radial velocity bias of any cylinder head we have ever tested.  The average velocity at the MCSA is now solidly sub sonic so on a running engine it should translate into an extremely efficient port.

This head isnt for the average street guy, its an all out race head designed for max power above 9000 rpm. 

Y2K, if I understand your use of the term radial velocity bias it refers to in-cylinder charge motion. How would or did you you measure this? All intake ports should be solidly subsonic.

[Competition CNC]

I think Karl knows were going to be there allready...... I hope he can make it, I want to see that beast 1427 zx12r of his run.

Give me a call and I'll go over whats involved in a stage 3 head.  Its quite a bit more expensive than a stage 1 or 2 head, we have to do O/S bronz seats, guides, more chamber work, o/s valves etc. so the heat can disipate properly when held at WOT for several minutes. Longevity is key.

Good question DF.

You measure the velocity with a pitot tube and a monometer and you start in the center and make a map of the port velocity in clock positions working outward in a spiral.  You do this at the same place depth wise in the port.
Then you step in a given amount, typically .5" and do it again and again.  When you look at all the radial velocity maps in the order you created them in, you can see things you cant see while the air is traversing the port in real time.
In our banner add on this site is a radial map of a port, thou its not the stage 3 busa port.

These maps are marked out before you start so you can keep the pitot tube at the same slice of the CSA in the port for each map.  You can then measure in Mastercam X2 what the exact CSA is at each map and determine the average velocity for the port at that exact slice of the port.

The colored rings show the flow bias which is typically highest at the shortest line in the port. Like if you took a string and held it taught threw the port and tried to keep it as straight as possable.

[osti33]

Good stuff!!

Can't wait to hear about the results.


Gary,the cat is out of the bag. Karl already knows.

[entropy]

yep, karl knows!

good stuff Jim.

I am real interested in the kinda stuff Jim is doing, but it makes my head hurt when I try to understand it.

[Competition CNC]

I hear ya Karl. 
If you read the SAE papers 2004-01-0998  and 2006-01-3653 it makes it easier to understand.  They explain port dynamics WAY better than I ever could.

If I went into the nitty gritty details of our designs but it would bore the hell out of everyone and no one would care anyway, so I don't.

Even better, get a copy of "Design and simulation of 4 stroke engines" by Gordon Blair.   Its always within arms reach for me ... 

When Jaime asked what I was reading one time I handed it to her.... she read a page or two and shook her head and said her brain hurts from it.       LOL

I kid her now and threaten to make her read it once in a while.   

[dakinebusa]

What's a few differential equations between friends.
How many porters have heard of Navier-Stokes?
Great reading.....

[Competition CNC]

I bet your local weather man has...   

[DarkFalcon]

Interesting Y2K. I am familiar with port mapping using a pitot tube and measuring velocity pressures but I had not heard the term radial bias as it would suggest movement away from the center.

[Competition CNC]

Well, basically the air in the port doesn't travel straight down the port.  Nor is the velocity equal in all areas of any given cross section.  So Its a way of mapping the different areas of velocity. I call it radial mapping because thats how I map it.

Once you have created the slices or  "radial maps" you can view all the slices in mastercam and see the radial movement of the airflow as it travels down the port and see where the high velocity areas are and or the flow bias is in a given port design.
This allows you to keep the port velocities at the airspeed you want while increasing the total cfm.  It also allows you to see where velocities are too high so you can see the areas where sonic choke will start and build from.  Sonic choke is typically why you will see an engine "table top" on a HP graph instead of peaking and declining.

Another benefit of these maps is the ability to predict fuel saturation streams and or fallout areas and dead spots.

We don't have a wet-flow adaptor yet on either of our flow benches so we have to use these maps.  I want to get the wet-flow setup soon.  Not so much for the bike stuff but for oval track intake manifold testing.

[dakinebusa]

In fluid mechanics we call these velocity profiles.
In a straight tube they vary from fully parabolic in laminar flow to nearly flat in turbulent flow.
When the pipe is not straight a lot happens to velocity profiles.
Essentially, a vortex develops that interacts with the velocity profile to make it assymetrical.

This is in well developed flow many diameters downstream from the entrance.
In a short port with a varying cross section and curvature it gets even better.
Then if the flow is pulsating and the entrance and exit is assymetrical....well, bring a large supercomputer.

The high buck guys use a robot positioner to step a hot wire anamometer all throughout the port to completely map the velocity profile.
This experimental data is fed to both engine and model developers so they can tweak thing.

[gazza414]

The hot wire is less intrusive to the port flow ..rather than a pitot tube ...it sets up its own special local conditions

good stuff Jim and good to see some good investigative research you're conducting.....gotta see if it works in practice in the dynamic mode.

 

[Competition CNC]

In fluid mechanics we call these velocity profiles.
In a straight tube they vary from fully parabolic in laminar flow to nearly flat in turbulent flow.
When the pipe is not straight a lot happens to velocity profiles.
Essentially, a vortex develops that interacts with the velocity profile to make it assymetrical.

This is in well developed flow many diameters downstream from the entrance.
In a short port with a varying cross section and curvature it gets even better.
Then if the flow is pulsating and the entrance and exit is assymetrical....well, bring a large supercomputer.

The high buck guys use a robot positioner to step a hot wire anamometer all throughout the port to completely map the velocity profile.
This experimental data is fed to both engine and model developers so they can tweak thing.

The busa port develops an intense vortex at the short turn between the two valves.   Typical of 4 valve split ports.  and the pitot tube does have an effect on the vortex when measuring velocity.
Thats where I could use a hotwire setup like that, or some kind of micro transducer so it wouldn't change local behavior.  But we are only actually measuring velocity there and not swirl so its not too much of a problem.

I'd really like a micro swirl transducer of some type to directly measure rotational movement.  I've looked high and low for something affordable and no luck.

Garry, maybe you can plan a business trip to the USA at the same time as maxton...? 

[dakinebusa]

The real tool here is the Laser Doppler Velocimiter.
Make a mockup of the port from cast plexiglass so the laser can probe everywhere without upsetting the flow.
Put the mockup in a square tank of refractive index matched oil to avoid refraction problems.
I used to run an LDV setup lashed to the table of an old CNC Bridgeport to completely survey flow fields.


http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://www.tut.fi/units/me/ener/laitteistot/EFD/gfx/LDA_principle.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.tut.fi/units/me/ener/laitteistot/EFD/LDA.html&h=270&w=500&sz=84&hl=en&start=3&tbnid=OMs2o783ET2hYM:&tbnh=70&tbnw=130&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dlaser%2Bdoppler%2Bvelocimeter%26gbv%3D2%26hl%3Den%26sa%3DX

Here is a pic of the test setup in the NASA 80' by 120' wind tunnel that can be entirely surveyed by LDV.

[Competition CNC]

Very cool.   I wish I had a budget that would allow me to use such tools.

[DarkFalcon]

Y2K, in light of discussion of three dimensional flow, port mapping and port velocity profiles, I still am having a hard time constructing a metric that would measure "radial velocity bias". I understand the tools, procedure and methods but I am wresting with specific metric or calculation that would permit comparisons between ports. I can see how you might calculate the bias for one slice of the port but I do not understand how you combine the slices of one port and come up with a unifying measurement. An example would be most appreciated.Thanks.

[Competition CNC]

Look at the map in our banner.  You can see the colors and pattern.  Lets say that slice was 2" down in the port.  The next map at say 2.25" down the port will be slightly different looking.  Then the next and the next.  So as you look at them you can see trends, like the highest velocity area moving to another part of the port, etc.

[gazza414]

Jim , in reality both pressure and velocity can be transposed wrt to these graphs ?---just another way of representing the data?

and yes , would love to come along to Maxton... another year I'd say unfortunately

[Competition CNC]

Well yea, the pitot tube is actually measuring pressure when its hooked to a manometer.  So yea.....

[DarkFalcon]

Y2K, do you guys start getting nervous and start looking for die grinders when measured velocity pressure equals the test pressure?

[Steve S]

Well yea, the pitot tube is actually measuring pressure when its hooked to a manometer.  So yea.....

Jim, isn't velocity simply the square root of measured pressure times a constant?

[Billy D]

Any performance results yet instead of this Dr Emmett Brown (from Back to the Future who can't figure that name out) talk? 

[dakinebusa]

Well yea, the pitot tube is actually measuring pressure when its hooked to a manometer.  So yea.....

Jim, isn't velocity simply the square root of measured pressure times a constant?

That'sa Bernoulli's equation.
You are correct.
More information than velocity or pressure is needed to quantify a turbulent flow field.
Knowing the vorticity of an unsteady flow is important too.

[Competition CNC]

Well yea, the pitot tube is actually measuring pressure when its hooked to a manometer.  So yea.....

Jim, isn't velocity simply the square root of measured pressure times a constant?

Yea, what you are actually measuring is the pressure differential.

stagnation pressure = static pressure + dynamic pressure.

That'sa Bernoulli's equation.

Yep.

[mountainmotor]

  Sonic choke is typically why you will see an engine "table top" on a HP graph instead of peaking and declining.

If your using " typically " in terms of sonic choke being the culprit for the larger percent of times it's seen vs  the other  problems that can and does cause the HP to flatline , and not port choke as the one and only possible cause , then i can agree with it .  I cannot agree with port choke being the only cause for a HP graph to flatline .

Would you care to elaborate on your meaning of the above quote ?

[Competition CNC]

Typically, as in most often but not always.

[gazza414]

What's a few differential equations between friends.
How many porters have heard of Navier-Stokes?
Great reading.....

I'd say very few ..but for engineers

and also it would appear another sport has taken this on....... we have moved away from towing sharks and dolphins in tanks in order to understand surface dynamics to CFD modelling.

just reading this journal and couldn't resist a pic to post here.

[mike46]

Well yea, the pitot tube is actually measuring pressure when its hooked to a manometer.  So yea.....

Jim, isn't velocity simply the square root of measured pressure times a constant?

That'sa Bernoulli's equation.
You are correct.
More information than velocity or pressure is needed to quantify a turbulent flow field.
Knowing the vorticity of an unsteady flow is important too.

It's a fluid construct.....full of flux. You need some #'s to start but....... I'm a dope....what do I know.

[whtrthanu]

post some rough flow data, lets see what that thing looks like on paper

[Competition CNC]

post some rough flow data, lets see what that thing looks like on paper

Geezz, I'm reluctant to post anymore static flow sheets on here. When I have in the past every other post becomes "flow bench numbers don't mean anything"  etc. and the thread becomes an argument about the importance of flow bench numbers.


So I've started to post more of the other parameters that we also use to design ports.  And now it seems some people dint like that either because they dint understand what the influence is on a port. " Dr Emmett Brown talk"

I suppose this is why 99.9% of all cylinder head companies just post the basic static flow members.  The public has been trained over the last 20+ years to look at these static flow numbers because thats all the info they ever get to see on a cylinder head besides volumes.
Several years ago the internet started to buzz with talk that "flow bench numbers dint mean shit".  At one time thats all you ever heard people talk about.

The truth is that they do mean something.  But, they are one piece of the pie, and a large piece at that, and to discount or minimize their importance is a mistake.

Even dyno numbers are disguarded now a days.  I even saw a post where someone ran a really good 1/4 mile mph and several people called it B/S.

So lets wait and see what the real world testing says. 

 

[Billy D]

Come on, just post something guy. My comments were only out of fun because a huge portion of the people on this site do not understand how deep you were talking. I personally understand a little about it and I know a damn good head porter who explains anything to me that I don't understand 

Show some flow charts, dyno numbers, or even performace at a track or top speed event (I am only talk MPH at the drag strip because ET doesn't mean much because that can be rider and set up). You have been on this site a while singing and dancing about CNC porting and your work. If my memory serves me correct you have only once said anything about performance out of your shop and it was talking about bad track conditions then other people jumped on talking about who said this and that. My point is for the normal guy, let's see what you are doing here for the customer should they want to do business with you.

[Competition CNC]

If my memory serves me correct you have only once said anything about performance out of your shop and it was talking about bad track conditions then other people jumped on talking about who said this and that.

Na, wasnt me.    But anyway, I'll have some hp and speed numbers after maxton.

[gazza414]

Jim , was it last weekends Maxton event you were referring too ? if so I'd be interested in how the bike went went. thx

[DarkFalcon]

If it's the bike I think it is, it went 199 and then on another pass it went 200 something. Obviously, they are fighting some technical and/or set-up issues.

[Spaz Racing]

Y2KZX12R, hows that head working out on that 1507cc from ohio?

[Competition CNC]

Yes Garry, it was last weekends event.  We had a blast. and it was HOT as hell.

The bike with the stage 3 head is a 1607 making 248 SAE hp.  At maxton it went 200.xxx.

Ryan had some shifter issues with the first runs and foot shifted it on the 200 mph run.  You guys have to remember that both Karl and Ryan are BIG guys at like 6'3" or 6'4" or something.  The bike is making power but its not easy for big guys to get big speeds.

It would have been nice to get Chad or Zack on it for a pass but they were booked up on other bikes.

Spaz, are you referring to the 1507 that Quantum (Bryan) built for Sunny with our stage 2 head?  I was under the impression you talk to sunny on a regular basis.  You should ask him.

But from the feed back I'm getting, its hard to launch because of the large amount of torque.  They are working out some suspension and weight issues because its spinning the tire.

Give Bryan a call at Quantum a call. He can fill you in better, I'm sure you still have his phone number.

[osti33]

If it's the bike I think it is, it went 199 and then on another pass it went 200 something. Obviously, they are fighting some technical and/or set-up issues.

Yep. DF you are correct. It's my bike and I am still having some technical issues. Unfortunately I never was able to get one real clean pass this weekend. I had some air shifter problems and some possible ignition/ECU problems. It was a hurry and put it together at the last minute type of thing just so I could get to the track. It was tuned pig rich just to be safe because I had very little time to fine tune it on the dyno. With more time to try some different things like lobe centers and fine tune the air fuel a little I am sure that there is more power to be found. I will also be bumping the compression up a bit. It is pump gas friendly right now. It wont be when I am done. 

I think by the time we get it all sorted out it will be competitive with some of the faster all motor bikes out at Maxton. With a small rider of course. I don't think it will haul my 6'5" 220 LB butt fast enough.

[Steve S]

  248 SAE is a very nice number from a 1607.

[DaveO]

Jim,

It was good to meet you!! Hope you had a good/hot time at Maxton!!! Sept will be cooler....

Dave

[SLEEPERBUSA]

Jim,
you gonna make it to Texas in Oct?

[Competition CNC]

Jim,

It was good to meet you!! Hope you had a good/hot time at Maxton!!! Sept will be cooler....

Dave

Same here Dave, I wish we had more time to chat, I have some questions about the ECU's in these bikes I bet you could answer. I'll have to give you a call.


Chris, Yea, I'm going to try and get down there in Oct.

[DaveO]

Jim/Otis,

FWIW breaking 200mph on an NA bike is a huge accomplishment!!! Many never do....There is sooo much to the tuning/setup BESIDES the HP needed to break that barrier....

Remember MOST TURBOS that show up at Maxton first few times dont break 200mph......

Give me a call about the ECU's...best is 7-9 ur time....508-802-0425

Dave

[SLEEPERBUSA]

Dave, I hope you'll make it back soon.
I'm real sorry that I didn't get to meet you when you were here!