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Author Topic: spray bar design  (Read 17593 times)

Offline leathalbusa

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spray bar design
« on: August 25, 2009, 06:21:54 PM »
Ok didn't want to jack the other thread.

I am in the process of building/designing my own spray bar and I have a couple of options.

use 4 fog heads pointed  directly into the throttlebodies. What would be the jet set up for this? the initial #38 jet divided by 4?

use a single #38 flare jet into a diverter and run tubes to the tb's? Like the the spyder?
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Offline sportbikeryder

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Re: spray bar design
« Reply #1 on: August 25, 2009, 06:36:58 PM »
spyder uses individual jets.

I have seen both, and used a single jet setup. Both work. The individual jet is likely a bit better. Good enough for Paul Gast to use on his promod.....(which looks like his prostock just spraying dry into the mouths of his lectrons!)

John
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Offline jblankenship

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Re: spray bar design
« Reply #2 on: August 27, 2009, 08:53:20 PM »
Well I was told by a very trusted builder like this: If you have four jets and those are your smallest points in the nitrous' travel route and you get a piece of trash what will happen. That is when the light switch went off for me. If trash gets past the solenoid and clogs a spraybar that only has one jet then all cylinders get less nitrous. If that trash goes down the line of a set up with four jets it gets stuck in one jet and guess what, boom. To me that made more sense than any other info I had ever been given and made my mind up right then and there. Been using the single jet style on 2 bikes for over 2 years now with no problems.
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Offline leathalbusa

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Re: spray bar design
« Reply #3 on: August 27, 2009, 09:08:22 PM »
interesting theory though.

But if one jet plugs up the wouldn't that cylinder just run rich with out nos?

and the flow rate of the Nos to the other cylinders might increase but still flowing through that specified jet number.

If you are running rich for safety sake's it increase in the flow rate should be absorbed in the extra fuel you are already running?

But I have known to be wrong before. just ask the Xwife.
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Offline jblankenship

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Re: spray bar design
« Reply #4 on: August 27, 2009, 11:14:44 PM »
I think the problem comes in when the crank becomes unbalanced from more pressure from the other 3 cylinders than the one not getting any nitrous. And then the one not getting nitrous makes even less power due to being rich. But I guess it would all really depend on how fast you found the problem.
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Offline sportbikeryder

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Re: spray bar design
« Reply #5 on: August 28, 2009, 09:29:38 AM »
Most all wet kits use 4 individual jets.

Like I said I use a single jet on ours, but i have another bike that has a 3 stage setup that uses a fairly small jet (.021) for first gear.

If I go with another spraybar, it will be 4 individual jets. It really depends on how much power you are looking at. If it is just a 60-70 shot probably not any need for 4 jets.   If you're trying to spray 150, I would definately go with individual...although imuch more than that has been sprayed on multistage airbox foggers....
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Offline Gixx1525R

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Re: spray bar design
« Reply #6 on: August 29, 2009, 05:03:19 AM »
Single jet helps maintain nitrous pressure longer
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Offline leathalbusa

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Re: spray bar design
« Reply #7 on: September 01, 2009, 07:12:57 PM »
Ok I now have 4 individual jet set ups. Is there a formula for dividing up the spray? Like a single #38 jet to spray in a 4 set-up would you divide that by 4?
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Offline jblankenship

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Re: spray bar design
« Reply #8 on: September 01, 2009, 09:22:48 PM »
I believe 4 17's is 55 hp
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Offline sportbikeryder

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Re: spray bar design
« Reply #9 on: September 01, 2009, 10:04:17 PM »
The jets are roughly based on corss sectional area. If you want 1/4 of th ejet, you need a jet with 1/4 the area.
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Offline 91hybrid

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Re: spray bar design
« Reply #10 on: October 17, 2009, 11:22:08 PM »
Quote from: Gixx1525R on August 29, 2009, 05:03:19 AM
Single jet helps maintain nitrous pressure longer

My problem with these single jet systems is they do not control the phase change of the Nitrous.  Since the single jet is the "pressure restrictor" the nitrous looses pressure in the spray head, lines, bar, then nozzle.  You want the phase change to occur in the intake track so that you acheive the full temperaure drop allowed.

John
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Offline Gixx1525R

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Re: spray bar design
« Reply #11 on: October 18, 2009, 07:29:02 AM »
Nitrous stays liquid all the way to the nozzles
« Last Edit: February 09, 2010, 05:58:04 PM by Gixx1525R »
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Offline 91hybrid

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Re: spray bar design
« Reply #12 on: October 18, 2009, 09:02:43 PM »
Not if your system is right.  If you have that much pressure drop your are either shooting a 300hp shot with a 2#bottle (not enough reservior pressure) or you have some other problems.

John
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Offline busamedic13

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Re: spray bar design
« Reply #13 on: November 04, 2009, 08:30:07 PM »
hi guys..heres some numbers i got.  went from a #38 (single nozzle) ran 135mph in 1000ft..then to a twin nozzle setup with 2-#32 jets and ran 136mph .  so, by rule of thumb (no dyno) its basically the same hp based on the mph.  yeh, its not rocket science , but it is fun!! and yes, it tried cuttin the nozzle in half ( 2-20 jets) and ran almost stock times ! so DON'T use that therory ! haha  peace yal !
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Offline wildphil69

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Re: spray bar design
« Reply #14 on: January 07, 2010, 11:00:39 AM »
I Talked to N.O.S. about this a few years back and they said if you run an individual jet and split it 4 ways there is a good chance that one cyl will get more nitrous than others. So even if you get the bike tuned you could have one cyl running very lean and the one next to it balls rich....If you run a setup with 4 jets and one clogs and it does happen it will just feel like a dead miss when your on the bottle. That cyl will just run rich until the particle works loose or you shutdown the system. Most of the time when they clog they dont unclog themselves.
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Offline Gixx1525R

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Re: spray bar design
« Reply #15 on: January 07, 2010, 12:42:29 PM »
Quote from: wildphil69 on January 07, 2010, 11:00:39 AM
I Talked to N.O.S. about this a few years back and they said if you run an individual jet and split it 4 ways there is a good chance that one cyl will get more nitrous than others. So even if you get the bike tuned you could have one cyl running very lean and the one next to it balls rich....If you run a setup with 4 jets and one clogs and it does happen it will just feel like a dead miss when your on the bottle. That cyl will just run rich until the particle works loose or you shutdown the system. Most of the time when they clog they dont unclog themselves.

Who did u speak to at NOS and exactly what year was it?
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Offline wildphil69

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Re: spray bar design
« Reply #16 on: January 07, 2010, 03:50:05 PM »
I talked to one of the tech guys but if you think about it there is alot of truth to it...you have a jet and hoses coming out of that...when the intake stroke draws air it will suck on the hose or nozzel and get more nitrous than anticipated. It would probably work good for smaller shots but for bigger shots i would be a little weary about it.

just my $0.02
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Offline Gixx1525R

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Re: spray bar design
« Reply #17 on: January 07, 2010, 07:28:36 PM »
Quote from: wildphil69 on January 07, 2010, 03:50:05 PM
I talked to one of the tech guys but if you think about it there is alot of truth to it...you have a jet and hoses coming out of that...when the intake stroke draws air it will suck on the hose or nozzel and get more nitrous than anticipated. It would probably work good for smaller shots but for bigger shots i would be a little weary about it.

just my $0.02

I know most of the techs and product designers at NOS. I have worked with them several times in the past 30 years that I have using Nitrous and I have never heard them make a statement like that. The Intake stroke does not draw or suction from the Nitrous nozzle
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Offline wildphil69

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Re: spray bar design
« Reply #18 on: January 07, 2010, 11:08:27 PM »
But there it does create a suction if you have them sticking into your velocity stack
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Offline Gixx1525R

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Re: spray bar design
« Reply #19 on: January 08, 2010, 07:06:33 AM »
Quote from: wildphil69 on January 07, 2010, 11:08:27 PM
But there it does create a suction if you have them sticking into your velocity stack

There is no suction,where are you getting this information from?
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Offline wildphil69

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Re: spray bar design
« Reply #20 on: January 08, 2010, 01:50:35 PM »
Ok start your bike up and put your hand over the velocity stack and then tell me there is no suction when the intake valve opens.
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Offline Reverend Ron

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Re: spray bar design
« Reply #21 on: January 08, 2010, 02:35:27 PM »
Nitrous is shot out by pressure, the jet in the nozzle will only let out the amount of nitrous it is designed to let out no more .

Even if you where to close up the entrance of the velocity stack , and then only insert the nitrous line into the stack  you will still only get the amount of nitrous that the jet is designed to deliver no more.

Only exception is if the bottle is getting empty you will get less nitrous than the jet is designed to deliver.

If you don't be-leave me take an air hose with a push button spray nos on it , set the air pressure at 100 lbs , pretend your mouth is a velocity stack , stick the spray nos in your mouth push the button and at the same time suck in.

I'll  give you $1,0000  to $1.00 ODs that you will only get 100 lbs of air.
:dh:
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Offline wildphil69

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Re: spray bar design
« Reply #22 on: January 08, 2010, 02:46:23 PM »
i understand that but you just dont understand what i am saying and i do...use whatever system you want i was just giving my opinion on it...if that was the case then why does a fuel car run seperate jets on each injector instead of one and slpit it off into each injector?
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Offline Gixx1525R

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Re: spray bar design
« Reply #23 on: January 08, 2010, 03:24:48 PM »
 OK I will tr to explain. Your definition of vacuum is incorrect. You are forgetting about Atmospheric Pressure. Once the intake valves are open and the intake stroke happens the cylinder is filled with air (atmosphere) This pressure at sea level is 14.7 psi and is constant. There is no vacuum or suction. The cylinder fills only because of the pressure of the air that is being exerted on it. The suction that you feel when you place you hand over the intake port is only suction. True vacuum would have a way to expell the air while he entrance is being blocked. As you go up in altitude there is less Atmospheric pressure,this is why all combustion motor have less horsepower when to go to higher altitudes. Air only goes into the cylinder from the pressure of the air that is being pushed into it from Atmospheric pressure unless negative pressure greater than 14.7 psi can be exerted.
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Offline wildphil69

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Re: spray bar design
« Reply #24 on: January 08, 2010, 03:40:14 PM »
Your wrong about the air just falling into the cyl as you pretty mych said...when the valve opens and the puston moves down it works like a vag pump and pulls the air in...if it just fell in there would be no such thing as vacuum between the throttle blades and the intake valve...like i said run WHATEVER system you want but i was just giving my opinion there is flow sorry i said vacuum

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Offline leathalbusa

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Re: spray bar design
« Reply #25 on: January 15, 2010, 07:19:22 PM »
Ok I see what both you are saying.

But a couple of things to think about. I am going to use 4 NOS fogger heads which have directional discharge this then would provide some stability in the nos delivery and with the physics of things . with all the air passing past the nozzle would give it a small venturie effect making a lower pressure point at the nozzle tip. I figure this will affect the flow rate of the Nos. effectively increasing it.Also emptying the lines faster at fuel cut off preventing a longer hit. But only by a percentage as it will also be affected by temp, and bottle pressure.  Now I am not going to wade into a vacuum and pressure contest. As it's like a ford vs chevy argument. But check out youtube "gale Banks" he explains it perfectly for muscle car magazine.
Yes you will feel a vacuum at the cylinder and the plunger design of a piston works But the maximum you can increase the cylinder pressure of a normally aspirated engine is 14.7 psi. any more than that and you have to run a form of forced induction. (Forgive the rambling) If it doesn't make any sense just think I am "down under" so all the blood rushes to my head being upside down.

After some research I figured that 4 jets are better as you can regulate the delivery to all the cylinders and get a better hit. plus then i am running the solenoid closer to the jets and keeping the gas lines shorter to get it there faster.

Either way you have to split the gas either before or after the jet. I felt that before the jet as you have a fairly constant gas pressure and a larger volume of gas flow to split.

Plus being safe by adding more fuel.....

Just my thoughts... And I have been known to be wrong, so my X-wife says.
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Offline wildphil69

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Re: spray bar design
« Reply #26 on: January 16, 2010, 12:36:10 AM »
Amen!
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Offline Gixx1525R

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Re: spray bar design
« Reply #27 on: January 16, 2010, 07:55:13 PM »
Really? How do you explain a cumbustion engine that doesnt use Pistons?
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Offline wildphil69

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Re: spray bar design
« Reply #28 on: January 16, 2010, 09:23:42 PM »
A wankel or rotary engine works the same way...when the rotor is tight against the case is where the hole for the intake is and it moves itself away from the case and sucks air in that way
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Offline wildphil69

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Re: spray bar design
« Reply #29 on: January 18, 2010, 02:24:00 PM »
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Offline Stocker64

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Re: spray bar design
« Reply #30 on: January 19, 2010, 08:26:50 PM »
nevermind..
« Last Edit: January 20, 2010, 06:41:20 PM by Stocker64 »
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Offline Stocker64

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Re: spray bar design
« Reply #31 on: January 19, 2010, 08:30:25 PM »
same here..
« Last Edit: January 20, 2010, 06:41:53 PM by Stocker64 »
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Offline Stocker64

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Re: spray bar design
« Reply #32 on: January 19, 2010, 08:43:44 PM »
Quote from: wildphil69 on January 08, 2010, 03:40:14 PM
Your wrong about the air just falling into the cyl as you pretty mych said...when the valve opens and the puston moves down it works like a vag pump and pulls the air in...if it just fell in there would be no such thing as vacuum between the throttle blades and the intake valve...like i said run WHATEVER system you want but i was just giving my opinion there is flow sorry i said vacuum


yep....
« Last Edit: January 20, 2010, 06:42:30 PM by Stocker64 »
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Offline Stocker64

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Re: spray bar design
« Reply #33 on: January 19, 2010, 08:48:11 PM »
"here too"
« Last Edit: January 20, 2010, 06:43:13 PM by Stocker64 »
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Offline sportbikeryder

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Re: spray bar design
« Reply #34 on: January 19, 2010, 08:53:23 PM »
Not sure it it has anything to do with spraybars, but if anyone ever takes an ase or other engine mechanic certification test and sees the a question along the lines of "What causes air to enter the cylinder of an internal combustion engine?", one of the choices will be vaccum in the cylinder and one will be atmospheric pressure.

Thre real answer is "screw you, I want to go drink a beer, but if you want to get credit for the correct answer, you will need to choose....










Atmospheric Pressure  :thumb:
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Offline Stocker64

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Re: spray bar design
« Reply #35 on: January 19, 2010, 08:59:00 PM »
Quote from: sportbikeryder on January 19, 2010, 08:53:23 PM
Not sure it it has anything to do with spraybars, but if anyone ever takes an ase or other engine mechanic certification test and sees the a question along the lines of "What causes air to enter the cylinder of an internal combustion engine?", one of the choices will be vaccum in the cylinder and one will be atmospheric pressure.

Thre real answer is "screw you, I want to go drink a beer, but if you want to get credit for the correct answer, you will need to choose....


 :hys: :hys: :hys:







Atmospheric Pressure  :thumb:
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Offline Stocker64

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Re: spray bar design
« Reply #36 on: January 19, 2010, 08:59:53 PM »
 :hys: :hys: :hys:... :thumb:
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Offline Stocker64

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Re: spray bar design
« Reply #37 on: January 19, 2010, 09:01:42 PM »
i love the internet.... :hys:
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Offline Stocker64

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Re: spray bar design
« Reply #38 on: January 19, 2010, 09:25:05 PM »
 :hys: :hys:
« Last Edit: January 20, 2010, 06:44:53 PM by Stocker64 »
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Offline wildphil69

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Re: spray bar design
« Reply #39 on: January 19, 2010, 10:41:18 PM »
Granted you cannot fill a cyl with more that 14.7 lbs without forced induction but without the piston Sucking or Drawing air in it will not be able to run. Maybe idle but when you crank it up to 12k the motor would not get enough air. If a motor did not draw air into it the how would a carburetor work? it wouldnt.
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Offline Stocker64

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Re: spray bar design
« Reply #40 on: January 19, 2010, 10:46:38 PM »
atmospheric pressure.........
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Offline Stocker64

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Re: spray bar design
« Reply #41 on: January 19, 2010, 10:50:17 PM »
damm...here too..
« Last Edit: January 20, 2010, 06:44:16 PM by Stocker64 »
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Offline Gixx1525R

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Re: spray bar design
« Reply #42 on: January 20, 2010, 06:42:22 AM »
14.7 at Sea level is............................. aww hell. Never mind. :duh: :duh: :duh:
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Offline PetriK

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Re: spray bar design
« Reply #43 on: January 23, 2010, 04:03:08 PM »
Quote from: wildphil69 on January 19, 2010, 10:41:18 PM
Granted you cannot fill a cyl with more that 14.7 lbs without forced induction but without the piston Sucking or Drawing air in it will not be able to run. Maybe idle but when you crank it up to 12k the motor would not get enough air. If a motor did not draw air into it the how would a carburetor work? it wouldnt.

Maybe there is more to this...

My current all motor seems to be running around 17 lbs air pressure into the cylinders. Thats where the velocity from intake tuning comes in, or was it drinking beer what I read - same thing, fastest way in to make it fully filled works either way.

Then the charge quality is determined by the exhaust side, even if my cylinders are at 17lbs of air pressure the cylinder may contain 20% of already burned fuel - a bit like old beer that waits it way out. If exhaust tuned lenght is not correct the power will still suck.

In my case the exhaust header is 20", about 4" shorter than stock and intake is about 1" shorter than stock, but thats all not generic, rather dependendent on cam, displacement and piston speed.

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