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Author Topic: Pair Valve crankcase evacuation  (Read 19645 times)

Offline blt1

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Pair Valve crankcase evacuation
« on: December 20, 2009, 07:32:54 PM »
I have completed the air box mod and was about to remove the pair valve when I heard about some people using it for crankcase evacuation by connecting the pair valve hose to the crankcase evacuation breather. Has any body done this and do they feel it was worth while? Also does the pair valve stay open after being capped off in order for this to operate correctly?
Just trying to do whats right.
Wanna go fast.

Offline dakinebusa

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Re: Pair Valve crankcase evacuation
« Reply #1 on: December 20, 2009, 08:02:20 PM »
Search.
Don't do it.

Offline blt1

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Re: Pair Valve crankcase evacuation
« Reply #2 on: December 21, 2009, 05:34:37 PM »
Appreciate the push, dug deeper and believe you are right gonna just stick with removal, no sucker mod.
Just trying to do whats right.
Wanna go fast.

Offline dakinebusa

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Re: Pair Valve crankcase evacuation
« Reply #3 on: December 21, 2009, 06:48:00 PM »
If you get the pair mod working really well you can see the oil pressure light flash at the end of a pull.
Crankcase vacuum is a power adder in a dry sump system but very dicey in a wet sump.

Offline Cookie

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Re: Pair Valve crankcase evacuation
« Reply #4 on: December 22, 2009, 12:15:02 AM »
If you really search, you will do it!

Raise your idle to 1100 rpm! Don't believe the stories of fear based removals!

A 2-3 free horsepower gain, to the wheel, is far better than 2-3 pounds lost!
-Chris

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Offline dakinebusa

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Re: Pair Valve crankcase evacuation
« Reply #5 on: December 22, 2009, 08:14:59 AM »
2-3 hp versus the risk of a burned crank.
Ya pays your money and takes your chances.
Motorhead took data on this and he came out again it.
Name one motor with a wet sump that uses crankcase vacuum from the factory.

Offline Cookie

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Re: Pair Valve crankcase evacuation
« Reply #6 on: December 22, 2009, 05:08:34 PM »
Are we really talking about "factory" when building horsepower? Think not.

Besides, being a TMH apostle I am not. I tore my engine apart after running the PCS mod for many, many miles and never saw one stitch of foul wear evidence.
-Chris

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Offline RACNRAY

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Re: Pair Valve crankcase evacuation
« Reply #7 on: December 23, 2009, 04:38:05 PM »
Kawasaki came out with the "pair" system in 1979. I don't remember exactly when i started utilizing it as a crancase evac system, prolly bout 25+ years ago.

Having my dyno since 1993 we get to experiment with every single new bike we get, and one such experiment is determining if a crankcase evac system based on the pair system is applicable.

We have found some skoots make LESS power utilizing the pair system as a c/case evac than with all the systems hooked up normally. The first skoot that made less shocked the hell outa us, we put everything back to stock, redynoed, got our stock power back. The next step was to determine the vacuum strength present in the main feed hose coming from the switching valve, and lo and behold that's where we found the reason for the power loss. The pair system had very good vacuum strength at idle/low speed, but monitoring the suction thru a dyno run, we felt the suction diminish, and ultimately ceased altogether. Since a crankcase evac system creates a "sealed" crankcase, once the vacuum signal ceased we now had the internal pressure building up in the crankcase, thus the power loss.

It has been well documented that when done right converting the pair system to a crankcase evac system on a Busa works and makes more power...period. The only problem we have found is SOMETIMES the necessity to raise the idle rpm a bit. The very good vacuum created by the pair system at idle is ofsetting what the oil pump is trying to do, pump oil. We have more problems on GSXR1K's than Busa's, and if a skoot has a hi-volume oil pump gear it is a non-issue.

Most skoots that respond to a c/case evac will make between 1-3 H.P. I don't believe i have seen more...yet!!

BTW...my Y2K Busa has over 67,000 miles on it , and had the pair converted into a c/case evac on the first dyno session back in 2000 with about 1000 miles on the skoot.

RACNRAY
TRUE HAPPINESSS IS RAILIN' MY BUSA IN THE TWISTIES!!

Offline Cookie

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Re: Pair Valve crankcase evacuation
« Reply #8 on: December 23, 2009, 05:20:47 PM »
Kawasaki came out with the "pair" system in 1979. I don't remember exactly when i started utilizing it as a crancase evac system, prolly bout 25+ years ago.

Having my dyno since 1993 we get to experiment with every single new bike we get, and one such experiment is determining if a crankcase evac system based on the pair system is applicable.

We have found some skoots make LESS power utilizing the pair system as a c/case evac than with all the systems hooked up normally. The first skoot that made less shocked the hell outa us, we put everything back to stock, redynoed, got our stock power back. The next step was to determine the vacuum strength present in the main feed hose coming from the switching valve, and lo and behold that's where we found the reason for the power loss. The pair system had very good vacuum strength at idle/low speed, but monitoring the suction thru a dyno run, we felt the suction diminish, and ultimately ceased altogether. Since a crankcase evac system creates a "sealed" crankcase, once the vacuum signal ceased we now had the internal pressure building up in the crankcase, thus the power loss.

It has been well documented that when done right converting the pair system to a crankcase evac system on a Busa works and makes more power...period. The only problem we have found is SOMETIMES the necessity to raise the idle rpm a bit. The very good vacuum created by the pair system at idle is ofsetting what the oil pump is trying to do, pump oil. We have more problems on GSXR1K's than Busa's, and if a skoot has a hi-volume oil pump gear it is a non-issue.

Most skoots that respond to a c/case evac will make between 1-3 H.P. I don't believe i have seen more...yet!!

BTW...my Y2K Busa has over 67,000 miles on it , and had the pair converted into a c/case evac on the first dyno session back in 2000 with about 1000 miles on the skoot.

RACNRAY

Thank you, Sir. Yours, Ray, was just the old school testimony that I was hoping would chime in! I knew I wasn't alone in this thinking.

I do believe that even though I was shown this system clear back in 1999 from an old school drag racer who used evac systems on his cars, which was posted here on SH.Org and supported from the likes of Busa@11k and others,,, this system does work,, not only on paper, but on the pavement. Unfortunately, because of Suzukihayabusa.Org's first server dump and precious lost early Hayabusa discovery, a lot of that reference material can never be accessed again for those that doubt.

I do believe also that because of year after year fear based comments that the majority follow through with the masses and go the shorter route - that of removal and block off.

Btw, I have seen 5.5hp positive change on dyno paper with a 1397cc Busa.

One of the most important points of a proper CC Evacuation System is to have non-collapsible hoses so that pressure remains constant. If anyone needs guidance or wants help in their forward thinking project with proper routing,, feel free to contact me.
« Last Edit: December 23, 2009, 05:23:21 PM by Cookie »
-Chris

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Offline fvance

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Re: Pair Valve crankcase evacuation
« Reply #9 on: December 23, 2009, 08:42:58 PM »
Is anybody using a vacuum pump??

  Fred
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Offline Cookie

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Re: Pair Valve crankcase evacuation
« Reply #10 on: December 23, 2009, 10:13:11 PM »
Is anybody using a vacuum pump??

Do you mean separate from the pair valve itself? I know that Schnitz was selling them for a while.
-Chris

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Offline fvance

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Re: Pair Valve crankcase evacuation
« Reply #11 on: December 24, 2009, 09:30:45 AM »
Yes
WORLDS FASTEST PRODUCTION MOTORCYCLE
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Offline RACNRAY

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Re: Pair Valve crankcase evacuation
« Reply #12 on: December 24, 2009, 12:06:20 PM »
Is anybody using a vacuum pump??

Do you mean separate from the pair valve itself? I know that Schnitz was selling them for a while.

I  just read in an article on the new Honda 1200 Interceptor that Honda now has a vacuum scavenging pump for the crankcase, finally the benefits of this is finding it's way into mass-produced skoots.

RACNRAY
TRUE HAPPINESSS IS RAILIN' MY BUSA IN THE TWISTIES!!

Offline Cookie

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Re: Pair Valve crankcase evacuation
« Reply #13 on: December 24, 2009, 01:57:48 PM »
Is anybody using a vacuum pump??

Do you mean separate from the pair valve itself? I know that Schnitz was selling them for a while.

I  just read in an article on the new Honda 1200 Interceptor that Honda now has a vacuum scavenging pump for the crankcase, finally the benefits of this is finding it's way into mass-produced skoots.

RACNRAY

What will be funny is when people start removing their block off plates and asking to buy all of the pair valves I have amassed. :mrgreen:
-Chris

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Offline Cookie

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Re: Pair Valve crankcase evacuation
« Reply #14 on: December 24, 2009, 02:01:38 PM »
Appreciate the push, dug deeper and believe you are right gonna just stick with removal, no sucker mod.

Can I give you an address where to send that valve to since you will be tossing it!?  :D
-Chris

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Offline LVBUSA

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Re: Pair Valve crankcase evacuation
« Reply #15 on: December 28, 2009, 06:43:21 AM »
Kawasaki came out with the "pair" system in 1979. I don't remember exactly when i started utilizing it as a crancase evac system, prolly bout 25+ years ago.

Having my dyno since 1993 we get to experiment with every single new bike we get, and one such experiment is determining if a crankcase evac system based on the pair system is applicable.

We have found some skoots make LESS power utilizing the pair system as a c/case evac than with all the systems hooked up normally. The first skoot that made less shocked the hell outa us, we put everything back to stock, redynoed, got our stock power back. The next step was to determine the vacuum strength present in the main feed hose coming from the switching valve, and lo and behold that's where we found the reason for the power loss. The pair system had very good vacuum strength at idle/low speed, but monitoring the suction thru a dyno run, we felt the suction diminish, and ultimately ceased altogether. Since a crankcase evac system creates a "sealed" crankcase, once the vacuum signal ceased we now had the internal pressure building up in the crankcase, thus the power loss.

It has been well documented that when done right converting the pair system to a crankcase evac system on a Busa works and makes more power...period. The only problem we have found is SOMETIMES the necessity to raise the idle rpm a bit. The very good vacuum created by the pair system at idle is ofsetting what the oil pump is trying to do, pump oil. We have more problems on GSXR1K's than Busa's, and if a skoot has a hi-volume oil pump gear it is a non-issue.

Most skoots that respond to a c/case evac will make between 1-3 H.P. I don't believe i have seen more...yet!!

BTW...my Y2K Busa has over 67,000 miles on it , and had the pair converted into a c/case evac on the first dyno session back in 2000 with about 1000 miles on the skoot.

RACNRAY

Thank you, Sir. Yours, Ray, was just the old school testimony that I was hoping would chime in! I knew I wasn't alone in this thinking.

I do believe that even though I was shown this system clear back in 1999 from an old school drag racer who used evac systems on his cars, which was posted here on SH.Org and supported from the likes of Busa@11k and others,,, this system does work,, not only on paper, but on the pavement. Unfortunately, because of Suzukihayabusa.Org's first server dump and precious lost early Hayabusa discovery, a lot of that reference material can never be accessed again for those that doubt.

I do believe also that because of year after year fear based comments that the majority follow through with the masses and go the shorter route - that of removal and block off.

Btw, I have seen 5.5hp positive change on dyno paper with a 1397cc Busa.

One of the most important points of a proper CC Evacuation System is to have non-collapsible hoses so that pressure remains constant. If anyone needs guidance or wants help in their forward thinking project with proper routing,, feel free to contact me.

Hey Cookie, what kind of hose does it take from the large side pair valve to the crankcase port, and this means I reconnect my signal vacuum right ?.  Also, where do I find email addresses for sh.org as I do not have, and can't find a way, to open an email, or pm account on this particular site. Does this come with post counts or something ?.  :)  Still getting used to the new source of Hayabusa-related fanaticism..........

Thanks...... 
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Offline Cookie

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Re: Pair Valve crankcase evacuation
« Reply #16 on: December 28, 2009, 06:22:04 PM »
LVBusa, you can do it one of two ways depending on how extensive you want to be.

The process is listed;
  • Disconnect the crankcase vent hose to the air box and block air box with nipple.
  • Disconnect the hose from the Pair Valve to the air box and block air box inlet with additional nipple.
  • Using a double male hose coupler insert one end into the hose that would normally go to the airbox from the 'Pair Valve' so as to lengthen.
  • Once installed use any 1/2" non-collapsible hose to reach to the crankcase vent. Approximately 10". Measure with fair accuracy so as not to crimp or bind hose.
  • The alternate choice would be to measure and secure one complete 1/2" non-collapsible hose a secure it to the crankcase vent from the pair valve.
  • Securely clamp all to assure no leaks or disconnect.

There is no need to disconnect or re-route the hose that goes to IAP Sensor. Check all connections. Make sure your oil filler cap is secured and tight. Run engine to double check. Adjust idle to 1100 rpm. Re-tighten all connections after a few miles. When engine is running with oil filler cap removed, by placing your palm over the oil filler you will see that the pump is creating a negative pressure.

On the PM's,, you will need a total of 10 posts to use or receive.  Good luck.
-Chris

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Offline dakinebusa

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Re: Pair Valve crankcase evacuation
« Reply #17 on: December 28, 2009, 07:58:21 PM »
So, here is the dark side.
You are making a full throttle pass.
Then engine is a maximum rpm so the pair valve is sucking like hell.
Crankcase vacuum is at a maximum.
You chop the throttle.
The motor goes from being an engine to an air compressor.
The oil film on the rod and main bearings has to reverse in eccentricity as the motor goes from being a power source to a power user.
The oil pump cavitates due to low suction pressure and oil flowing to the front of the pan.
Your crank is toast.

If I were to do this mod I would smooth and port the oil pump inlet passages for minimal suction head loss.
All this for 2-3 horsepower.
That's not enough to win any race compared to a good hand on the clutch.

Offline Cookie

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Re: Pair Valve crankcase evacuation
« Reply #18 on: December 28, 2009, 08:50:30 PM »
Nice hypothesis. Any crankshafts to back that up?

Besides, I don't drag race.
-Chris

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Offline LVBUSA

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Re: Pair Valve crankcase evacuation
« Reply #19 on: December 29, 2009, 08:31:21 AM »
LVBusa, you can do it one of two ways depending on how extensive you want to be.

The process is listed;
  • Disconnect the crankcase vent hose to the air box and block air box with nipple.
  • Disconnect the hose from the Pair Valve to the air box and block air box inlet with additional nipple.
  • Using a double male hose coupler insert one end into the hose that would normally go to the airbox from the 'Pair Valve' so as to lengthen.
  • Once installed use any 1/2" non-collapsible hose to reach to the crankcase vent. Approximately 10". Measure with fair accuracy so as not to crimp or bind hose.
  • The alternate choice would be to measure and secure one complete 1/2" non-collapsible hose a secure it to the crankcase vent from the pair valve.
  • Securely clamp all to assure no leaks or disconnect.

There is no need to disconnect or re-route the hose that goes to IAP Sensor. Check all connections. Make sure your oil filler cap is secured and tight. Run engine to double check. Adjust idle to 1100 rpm. Re-tighten all connections after a few miles. When engine is running with oil filler cap removed, by placing your palm over the oil filler you will see that the pump is creating a negative pressure.

On the PM's,, you will need a total of 10 posts to use or receive.  Good luck.

Mm-hmm that's what I thought.  I'll source out a good 1/2" source of tubing so I can hard line it to just short of the pair valve.  That way, the vacuum remains a sustained constant (+/-).  Let's see what comes of it......... :)  Oh, and thanks on the PM info.....seems easy enough.  Greg was running a special on ZG Dbl Bubbles, and kept trying to contact me......
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Offline blt1

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Re: Pair Valve crankcase evacuation
« Reply #20 on: December 29, 2009, 12:17:31 PM »
So it sounds as a happy medium that blocking off the pair valve and installing a crankcase breather would be in my best interest as I do intend to drag race my bike. Cookie, RacnRay you do make a good argument and as such am keeping my pair valve until I can figure out an alternative. I remember the old crankcase evac systems that utilized exhaust flow for crankcase evacuation and have a couple of ideas I am going to try.
Just trying to do whats right.
Wanna go fast.

Offline wildphil69

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Re: Pair Valve crankcase evacuation
« Reply #21 on: January 02, 2010, 10:47:24 AM »
If you look at pretty much any comp car or rail car they all run the exhaust evac system
Nitrous is like a hot chick with STD'S...You know you wanna hit it but your just not sure of the consequences.

Offline fvance

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Re: Pair Valve crankcase evacuation
« Reply #22 on: January 02, 2010, 11:05:21 AM »
That should work pretty good, not much on the bottom end and pretty good draw on the big end. :grn:

  Fred
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VANCE & FORSTALL RACING
Top Speed 235 mph
HP by Carpenter & Johnny Cheese  Engine by Knecum
SponsersCATALYST COMPOSITES,JOHNNY CHEESE,KNECUM RACING ENGINES,MURRAY EXHAUST,CARPENTER RACING

Offline FASBUS

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Re: Pair Valve crankcase evacuation
« Reply #23 on: January 04, 2010, 07:30:55 PM »
  I dont run vac. anymore however my 230hp 1507 made xtra 2hp & stock bottom end 02' 180 hp gixxer 1k made 4hp..

Offline RansomT

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Re: Pair Valve crankcase evacuation
« Reply #24 on: January 05, 2010, 11:12:35 AM »
All of Bob's turn key Busa Packages come with the pair valve as a Crankcase pump.
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