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Author Topic: Servion's Autronic SM4 Standalone/RCC Stage 1 on E85  (Read 24021 times)

Offline servion

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Servion's Autronic SM4 Standalone/RCC Stage 1 on E85
« on: March 16, 2010, 01:05:22 AM »
Since I took her out on the maiden voyage tonight, I figure its time to post the build thread.  I'm up here in Colorado at 6500feet elevation, and I want to go 8's.  I ran 10.5 @ 135 n/a up here (pretty good considering we see 7500-900 density altitude during track season and I'm still pretty damn green with the clutch hand :hys:).

I really like the RCC kit and I have been tuning standalone engine management systems since 2001, so I figured its time to step into the bike world.

I started off by installing my old Autronic SM4 onto the bike.  Many people in the busa community seem to not like this system and think it was not possible to work it with stock crank/cam triggers, but I got it to work :)  I think the newer SM4 units have made it much easier, the system understands the stock trigger pattern with no problems at all.  I built an adapter harness to use as much of the OEM wiring as possible (to try and keep it a street bike that's not a MONSTER project).



Took it to the shop and dynoed it on our load bearing Dyno Dynamics dynamometer.  Allows for tuning of all cells in steady state conditions (i.e. partial throttle fuel, timing, etc. all tuned for optimum settings on the dyno).  I was able to replicate the exact same torque curve as the reflash-tuned stock ECU with a better looking and more consistent a/f curve.

With the dash data wire inoperative, I opted to install boost and water temp gauges, as well as my old original PLX wideband I had from my civic project years ago.




Well, here's a few pictures of the build as it progresses.  All motor:


On the dyno with the autronic, all motor:



Starting the teardown:





I went with a Bosch 044 pump and Injector Dynamics 1000cc injectors.  I figured its better to overbuild the fuel system the underbuild.

Fuel system intact:



Tonight, after a nice trip around the block.  Runs rich, but good!  Ready for tuning.








Since I have the fuel system for it, I will be tuning back to back on the same day with 91 octane and then E85.  All properly tuned on the Autronic SM4 standalone engine management system.  We've been using E85 in cars for years now, I ran 10.2@147 making 650whp at 11:1 compression ratio on my 2.0L street honda; I tuned a buddies foxbody mustang to 1050rwhp and he ran 8.6@168 all on e85 (just a few examples).

I'll post the dyno charts of 91 octane versus e85, should be wednesday as long as weather holds!
« Last Edit: March 16, 2010, 01:10:27 AM by servion »
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8.61@168.9 1.47 60' - E85 stock motor gen1 streetbike
My Autronic SM4 Stage 1 build


Offline Mike-Nightrider

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Re: Servion's Autronic SM4 Standalone/RCC Stage 1 on E85
« Reply #2 on: March 16, 2010, 07:05:47 PM »
Very nice  :thumb:

Interesting thing with the E85 !!!
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Offline lbz34

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Re: Servion's Autronic SM4 Standalone/RCC Stage 1 on E85
« Reply #3 on: March 17, 2010, 03:03:03 AM »
Great progress Servion.  I can't wait to see the results.  We just bought a Dynojet 200I for the shop, and in the process of ordering a DTA and some bigger injectors for my bike.  The season is coming up fast on us.  I noticed Tony is carrying the Injector Dynamics injectors.  Did you go with the S2k ones?  I have the stock S2k injectors in the bike now but am limited to high impedance without adding another box or resistors on the DTA.  I have an SAE rail ready to go just need to find the easiest route, I don't mind spending a little extra $$ for less hassle. 

I am curious to see how much you pick up on E85.  I have only tuned one Supra on it and it makes some nice gains (saw about 30 HP gain on low boost).  A friend just finished his ZX14 on E85 last week but he has not put a real tune to it yet. 
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Offline servion

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Re: Servion's Autronic SM4 Standalone/RCC Stage 1 on E85
« Reply #4 on: March 17, 2010, 10:15:03 AM »
Great progress Servion.  I can't wait to see the results.  We just bought a Dynojet 200I for the shop, and in the process of ordering a DTA and some bigger injectors for my bike.  The season is coming up fast on us.  I noticed Tony is carrying the Injector Dynamics injectors.  Did you go with the S2k ones?  I have the stock S2k injectors in the bike now but am limited to high impedance without adding another box or resistors on the DTA.  I have an SAE rail ready to go just need to find the easiest route, I don't mind spending a little extra $$ for less hassle. 

I am curious to see how much you pick up on E85.  I have only tuned one Supra on it and it makes some nice gains (saw about 30 HP gain on low boost).  A friend just finished his ZX14 on E85 last week but he has not put a real tune to it yet. 

I actually bought my ID1000s and Bosch 044 both from Tony (great guy to deal with).  He sells a set intended for the gen 1 hayabusa for either stock fuel rail or an aftermarket automotive one.  I got the ones intended to run in an automotive fuel rail (60mm from o-ring to o-ring with the 14mm tops).  These ones comes with a small o-ring on the lower part of the injector that fits right into the inner area of the throttle body assembly on the gen1.  I used an RCC rail intended to allow use of automotive injectors.  Richard's rail comes with some adapters to make it work with these injectors, but the adapters raise the injector 6mm out of the TB assembly, and I didn't like pulling the fuel stream away from the throttle bodies, so I milled down the posts that bolt the rail to the TB assembly by about 6mm and it fits great.  Supposedly the NLR rail fits them without modification.

So in short, call Tony and tell him you want a set for a Hayabusa and tell him which style rail you're using and he'll get you setup.  If you use Richard's rail, just shave 6mm off of the length of the posts.

so far, I like these injectors.  I have them idling just a tad richer than stoich and it idles as smooth as stock ones.  This is on 91 right now.

I tuned a gt4088r supra with it, and it picked up 50whp just on wastegate (1bar if memory serves).  Spooled 500rpm quicker as well :)
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My Autronic SM4 Stage 1 build

Offline lbz34

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Re: Servion's Autronic SM4 Standalone/RCC Stage 1 on E85
« Reply #5 on: March 17, 2010, 01:13:07 PM »
Sounds great thanks for the help.  I will be giving Tony a ring.  I have the SAE rail for the automotive injectors, Looks like it should bolt up with the right size spacers. 
You have everything I lack
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06 GSX-R 1000 60 shot 8.54@162
00 camaro 8.85@162 20 psi E85
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Offline servion

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Re: Servion's Autronic SM4 Standalone/RCC Stage 1 on E85
« Reply #6 on: March 17, 2010, 01:16:03 PM »
Sounds great thanks for the help.  I will be giving Tony a ring.  I have the SAE rail for the automotive injectors, Looks like it should bolt up with the right size spacers.  

Hey, it looks like you're another high altitude guy!  What was your setup when you ran the 9.06@153?  I.e. kit, boost level, fmu/standalone, etc? 60'?

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8.61@168.9 1.47 60' - E85 stock motor gen1 streetbike
My Autronic SM4 Stage 1 build

Offline lbz34

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Re: Servion's Autronic SM4 Standalone/RCC Stage 1 on E85
« Reply #7 on: March 17, 2010, 01:28:14 PM »
Yeah i am down here in ALbuquerque, NM.  

We are running a custom kit we made 55mm PT billet, S2k Injectors, 6 psi 91 octane, ECU editor, stock fuel pump.  I think that was on a 1.50 60 ft if I remember correctly.  I have seen a few mid 1.4 60's on the Hays clutch but our track was not the best for traction.  I think the 1.4's were 9.1 passes with the tire spinning.  Our track bought the tire drag tractor form Bandemiere (sp?) end of last season and I head the track is really hooking well now.  We will see in a few weeks.  Sucks the bike will be down for management, more fuel, and some boost control, but hopefully it will be ready to make some more passes in mid April.  
You have everything I lack
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06 GSX-R 1000 60 shot 8.54@162
00 camaro 8.85@162 20 psi E85
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Offline servion

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Re: Servion's Autronic SM4 Standalone/RCC Stage 1 on E85
« Reply #8 on: March 17, 2010, 02:30:55 PM »
Yeah i am down here in ALbuquerque, NM.  

We are running a custom kit we made 55mm PT billet, S2k Injectors, 6 psi 91 octane, ECU editor, stock fuel pump.  I think that was on a 1.50 60 ft if I remember correctly.  I have seen a few mid 1.4 60's on the Hays clutch but our track was not the best for traction.  I think the 1.4's were 9.1 passes with the tire spinning.  Our track bought the tire drag tractor form Bandemiere (sp?) end of last season and I head the track is really hooking well now.  We will see in a few weeks.  Sucks the bike will be down for management, more fuel, and some boost control, but hopefully it will be ready to make some more passes in mid April.  

Maybe I can bug you for some launching tips at highaltitude?  It seems a ton harder to get good 60's out of bikes at our altitude.... much higher rpm launches.
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Offline lbz34

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Re: Servion's Autronic SM4 Standalone/RCC Stage 1 on E85
« Reply #9 on: March 17, 2010, 04:25:37 PM »
Throw a bigger turbo on top of that and it gets real fun to get the bike to 60.  I am no guru by any means but I will help with what I have learned if ya need  :thumb:.
You have everything I lack
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00 camaro 8.85@162 20 psi E85
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Offline servion

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Re: Servion's Autronic SM4 Standalone/RCC Stage 1 on E85
« Reply #10 on: March 17, 2010, 11:49:23 PM »
Results are in!!!

Some dyno day pics:











Dyno numbers:
This is on e85, I'll start a thread with results in the turbo talk forum with the 91 to e85 back to back chart to get more exposure


These numbers are SAE corrected for altitude and I'm at high altitude for anyone who knows/cares about it.

Here is the a/f ratio and boost curves:

« Last Edit: March 17, 2010, 11:51:26 PM by servion »
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8.61@168.9 1.47 60' - E85 stock motor gen1 streetbike
My Autronic SM4 Stage 1 build

Offline murderedout07

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Re: Servion's Autronic SM4 Standalone/RCC Stage 1 on E85
« Reply #11 on: March 18, 2010, 10:19:46 AM »
Nice! If you fattend it up at the 8300 you would have a solid 11.8 af. Looks like you got a little boost creep there. Good job though! :thumb:

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Offline servion

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Re: Servion's Autronic SM4 Standalone/RCC Stage 1 on E85
« Reply #12 on: March 18, 2010, 11:07:02 AM »
I ended up fattening it up a bit in general, around .78 lambda.  Remember, this is on ethanol (E85) so its a bit different than gas :)  It cools the chambers and valves quite a bit more.  Also runs much cooler EGTs
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8.61@168.9 1.47 60' - E85 stock motor gen1 streetbike
My Autronic SM4 Stage 1 build

Offline lbz34

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Re: Servion's Autronic SM4 Standalone/RCC Stage 1 on E85
« Reply #13 on: March 18, 2010, 11:44:52 AM »
Looks good.  Interested in the 91 numbers also.  I made 261 on 6 psi on our Dynojet on 91 (corrected of course).  I am on a bigger turbo than most stage 1 guys though.  What was the uncorrected or the correction factor that day.  We have been seeing about 18% lately (good air for us). 
You have everything I lack
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06 GSX-R 1000 60 shot 8.54@162
00 camaro 8.85@162 20 psi E85
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Offline servion

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Re: Servion's Autronic SM4 Standalone/RCC Stage 1 on E85
« Reply #14 on: March 18, 2010, 12:02:52 PM »
Looks good.  Interested in the 91 numbers also.  I made 261 on 6 psi on our Dynojet on 91 (corrected of course).  I am on a bigger turbo than most stage 1 guys though.  What was the uncorrected or the correction factor that day.  We have been seeing about 18% lately (good air for us).  

No problem, I'm actually going to start a thread in the turbo talk forum with the back to back results here shortly, but the corrected 91 numbers were 263whp and 137tq, so it sounds a lot like yours!  We see a bit higher correction factors here than you do, but we are also using a Dyno Dynamics, which reads 15% to 17% lower than dynojets (on average).  With the 'dynojet equivalent" correction factor or "dynojet uncorrected" it was making 238whp and 126tq.

Are you using a lockup clutch?  Or just a hand-clutch?  2-step?
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My Autronic SM4 Stage 1 build

Offline lbz34

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Re: Servion's Autronic SM4 Standalone/RCC Stage 1 on E85
« Reply #15 on: March 18, 2010, 12:28:25 PM »
I am using a hays in lockup mode, I was on a 2 step also.  I will be taking the 2 step off and selling it as soon as the DTA gets here.  Can't wait to see some times.  Sounds like we will have very similar results.  Hard to find similar setups and altitude.
You have everything I lack
Every little part I want back
Unspoken are the words I keep in silence
Missing you and living in a world of unbalance
R.I.P. Brother :(
06 GSX-R 1000 60 shot 8.54@162
00 camaro 8.85@162 20 psi E85
08 hayabusa :secret:

Offline servion

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Re: Servion's Autronic SM4 Standalone/RCC Stage 1 on E85
« Reply #16 on: March 18, 2010, 01:14:22 PM »
I am using a hays in lockup mode, I was on a 2 step also.  I will be taking the 2 step off and selling it as soon as the DTA gets here.  Can't wait to see some times.  Sounds like we will have very similar results.  Hard to find similar setups and altitude.

Right on, do you like that clutch?  Is it pretty easy to setup?  I know nothing about lockup clutches or how to tune them.  I currently only have the APE heavy springs and a fresh OEM set of fibers and steels at 2".  I was having a hell of a time cutting a good 60' all motor on that, best I ever cut was a 1.73.  I am sure there is more in it, but that was launching at 8 and pulling the front wheel a couple inches and carrying it for a bit at 64-65", pegged very quickly (before the clutch is out).  People always talk about launching low, 4-5kish, but I could never get it to not bog at that low, I'm sure to to the bike making less power at any given rpm at high altitude.

Are your number from a dynojet?
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My Autronic SM4 Stage 1 build

Offline lbz34

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Re: Servion's Autronic SM4 Standalone/RCC Stage 1 on E85
« Reply #17 on: March 18, 2010, 01:51:53 PM »
I like it.  I think i was 1.7 60's when the bike was 65" last year with stock everything but the arm.  I have a straight link on the rear shock so the shock is a bit too stiff, but I didn't have a problem wheelying.  I had to leave at like 10k to not bog it.  I had a MTC single stage on it to try and help with the clutch grabbing once the turbo went on and never got that sorted.  I was having a horrible grab issue and seeing 1.9 60's.  I weent to the Hays and instantly went 1.6's.  After learning the setup and talking with Tim a bit I got it to the mid 1.4's hand clutching.  It is set up now to throw the lever and I am seeing mid to low 1.5's.  I still need to piddle with the boost in first gear once I turn it up and get the set up on the clutch a tad closer but it is pretty good for my knowledge so far.  My numbers are on a Dynojet, 222 uncorrected. 
You have everything I lack
Every little part I want back
Unspoken are the words I keep in silence
Missing you and living in a world of unbalance
R.I.P. Brother :(
06 GSX-R 1000 60 shot 8.54@162
00 camaro 8.85@162 20 psi E85
08 hayabusa :secret:

Offline servion

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Re: Servion's Autronic SM4 Standalone/RCC Stage 1 on E85
« Reply #18 on: March 18, 2010, 03:55:43 PM »
I like it.  I think i was 1.7 60's when the bike was 65" last year with stock everything but the arm.  I have a straight link on the rear shock so the shock is a bit too stiff, but I didn't have a problem wheelying.  I had to leave at like 10k to not bog it.  I had a MTC single stage on it to try and help with the clutch grabbing once the turbo went on and never got that sorted.  I was having a horrible grab issue and seeing 1.9 60's.  I weent to the Hays and instantly went 1.6's.  After learning the setup and talking with Tim a bit I got it to the mid 1.4's hand clutching.  It is set up now to throw the lever and I am seeing mid to low 1.5's.  I still need to piddle with the boost in first gear once I turn it up and get the set up on the clutch a tad closer but it is pretty good for my knowledge so far.  My numbers are on a Dynojet, 222 uncorrected. 

Right on, that's good to hear.  I wanted to learn to do it by hand before going with a lockup, just to eliminate one more variable (me) before adding another (tuning a clutch).  I think I'll go with a Hayes clutch later down the season if I can keep it streetable.  Is your bike a street bike?  I think we're making very similar numbers, so its encouraging to see that you've figured it out very well at altitude.
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My Autronic SM4 Stage 1 build

Offline lbz34

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Re: Servion's Autronic SM4 Standalone/RCC Stage 1 on E85
« Reply #19 on: March 18, 2010, 04:14:20 PM »
It is a full street bike still.  Take it out for a Sunday ride with the girlfriend or daughter when the weather is nice.  I would love to stay on a stuck clutch setup but mine just would not slip enough no matter how long I rode it out (on the turbo). 
You have everything I lack
Every little part I want back
Unspoken are the words I keep in silence
Missing you and living in a world of unbalance
R.I.P. Brother :(
06 GSX-R 1000 60 shot 8.54@162
00 camaro 8.85@162 20 psi E85
08 hayabusa :secret:

Offline servion

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Re: Servion's Autronic SM4 Standalone/RCC Stage 1 on E85
« Reply #20 on: April 26, 2010, 09:49:36 AM »
Well, a buddy took a few pictures for me, I just finally got everything back together and the fairings cut and on.  Also tested the cycle-tek shifter, using the Autronic to do the interrupt and open the solenoid BOTH, its cool :)  BIG thanks to Matt for emailing me back on a Sunday!!!


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My Autronic SM4 Stage 1 build

Offline 5280 Busa

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Re: Servion's Autronic SM4 Standalone/RCC Stage 1 on E85
« Reply #21 on: June 12, 2010, 10:08:35 PM »
jeremy,

congats on the 8 sec run at Bandimere yesterday. I would be interested in going with this setup if you would be willing to provide some guidance and tuning expertise.

-Scott


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Offline servion

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Re: Servion's Autronic SM4 Standalone/RCC Stage 1 on E85
« Reply #22 on: June 15, 2010, 12:09:13 PM »
jeremy,

congats on the 8 sec run at Bandimere yesterday. I would be interested in going with this setup if you would be willing to provide some guidance and tuning expertise.

-Scott


Thanks!  I would be happy to provide you with all the info that I have when I did this setup.  I was told by many people that the stock cam and crank sensors would not work with the Autronic at high rpm/higher power, but I already had the system and I made it work without a problem on my bike.  I think most of the people who had tried autronic previously on busas with stock pickups were using older versions/different autronic boxes - I've got the latest firmware of the SM4 (the best autronic box available).  I think both the latest firmware and the newest box made a difference there.

There are other systems out there that will work as well, and if you want to go standalone I'll definitely take on tuning it for you and sharing all the info I have.  I really like the Autronic - I prefer it over a Motec m4/m48 and it is less expensive than the m4/m48 motec boxes as well.  The support is not as good as a motec box, but its more capable in my opinion than the m4/m48 and its cheaper.  The Motec m800 of course would top it, but its MUCH more expensive.  I used the Autronic because I still had it around from my racecar project that I parted out.  Main problem with autronic is that they are based in australia, and it takes a lot of time if you have to deal with them directly.  There are many dealers in the US, if you could find someone with an SM4 v1.09 in stock you'd be set.  Our local dealer here in CO may have one, I can get you his contact info if you want.  He has been pushing the new Vipec V88 stuff a lot though - he loves it and I'm sure we could make it work.  The other option is there is a group that is working on a plug-and-play megasquirt setup for the busas that looks very promising.  Its also supposed to be retailing for 1k or so out the door - which is much cheaper than you'll find an autronic/vipec/motec system.  I've been in contact with one of the guys on the project and he asked if I would be willing to test it out - you could be a good guinea-pig if you're interested...

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Offline 5280 Busa

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Re: Servion's Autronic SM4 Standalone/RCC Stage 1 on E85
« Reply #23 on: June 15, 2010, 10:44:13 PM »
I can go with whatever works best. I was planning on a motor build over the winter and I think that would be a good time to do the stand alone system. Also, were you running E85? I would be interested in that too.

-Scott


2003 Turbo Busa with a few mods
2013 BMW S1000RR HP4 Competition # 1273
2012 CLS 63 tuned

Offline servion

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Re: Servion's Autronic SM4 Standalone/RCC Stage 1 on E85
« Reply #24 on: June 15, 2010, 10:48:02 PM »
I can go with whatever works best. I was planning on a motor build over the winter and I think that would be a good time to do the stand alone system. Also, were you running E85? I would be interested in that too.

-Scott

Well, what works best will likely depend on your budget, but if I didn't have my autronic lying around from a previous project (i.e. if I had to buy something new), I would give the megasquirt plug-n-nplay a shot, simply because from what I hear they've had good success, and its affordable. 

I am running e85.  I tuned it for both 91 and e85, but I run e85 all the time - makes more power and is much safer. 

Let me know if you need any help or are looking for more info and we can go from there.
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8.61@168.9 1.47 60' - E85 stock motor gen1 streetbike
My Autronic SM4 Stage 1 build