Broke my Gen 2 on a 40 shot

[bikefrk]

Ok, it is getting ugly and I need explanations of why this happened, but I may never get that...

My build is as follows:

Gen 1 rods and pistons in a Gen 2 cylinder.
Gen 1 springs under Gen 2 valves
HD cam chain
40 shot through 2 nozzles into the airbox.
spray comes on at 7000-11,000rpm and 95% TPS all controlled thru ECU.
Tuned on the dyno by Ryan Schnitz.

Last year I was on a 20 shot with NO tuning on a stock Gen 2 motor with NO problems at all. I ran at least 80lbs of nitrous thru it.

This is frustrating beyond anything else I have ever had to deal with.

I got 2 passes on the bottle. This happened on the second pass.

Any thoughts on why this happened?

#1 and #2 look good

This is #3. I lost an electrode off the plug on this cylinder also.


#4

[bikefrk]

[sportbikeryder]

Not enough fuel or not good enough fuel.
I'd ditch the platniumm plugs as well if you are spraying, but that is not what caused it.

Why the gen 1 pistons and rods in teh gen2? I assume you have a .040" spacer added?

Was probably tuned lean as hell on spray.

How much power did it make N/A and with nitrous?

[Reverend Ron]

You may have been spraying 40 hp with the 2 nozzles instead of 20 hp, and when you went to a 40 shot you may have been spraying 80 hp instead of 40.
I started too use a 2 spray in the box also, on checking the jets sent to me by the company who made the system I notice that they had sent me jets for a single nozzle system instead of a 2 nozzle system.
When I ordered my system I ordered 20-30-40-50 & 60 hp jet's , if I had used the jets they sent by misstake I would have been spraying 100 hp instead of 50hp.
Thereby resulting in what has happen to your motor.
If you system is a Cold Fusion system the jeting is as follows.
2 spray nozzle
20 hp use 2 #15 jets
30           2# 19 jets
40           2# 23 jets
Single spray nozzle
20 hp use 1  # 21 jet
30           1  # 27  jet
40           1  # 31 jet
50           1  #33  jet
60           1  #37 jet

[bikefrk]

Didn't think of that, but the dyno chart shows a 40hp gain over N/A so I assumed that is what it was spraying.

Ryan Schnitz pulled the jets off the shelf at the shop and installed them, so I had ultimate trust in what he did.

He did not put the motor together, just tuned and changed the jets out.

[Reverend Ron]

I'd still check the jets any way , People do make misstakes

[sportbikeryder]

What kind of fuel were you using?
Are you using the gen 2 ecu nitrous control? My guess is that the ecu didn't  add fuel for your bike.

Ryan used to tune a bit on the lean side of things (which isn't necessarily a problem), but this tune is actually a bit on the richer side of things, which usually doesn't sacrifice any significant power on spray.

 

[smithabusa]

What kind of fuel were you using?
Are you using the gen 2 ecu nitrous control? My guess is that the ecu didn't  add fuel for your bike.

Ryan used to tune a bit on the lean side of things (which isn't necessarily a problem), but this tune is actually a bit on the richer side of things, which usually doesn't sacrifice any significant power on spray.

 

ecu turned on the nitrous, not sure why it would not turn on fuel as well, thats never happened before to my knowledge, especially on a gen 2 as you dont have to hook up map switching or anything.

So what size was the base spacer again?

[Gixx1525R]

Spinning through 2nd and banging off of the rev limiter will do that

[bikefrk]

What kind of fuel were you using?
Are you using the gen 2 ecu nitrous control? My guess is that the ecu didn't  add fuel for your bike.

Ryan used to tune a bit on the lean side of things (which isn't necessarily a problem), but this tune is actually a bit on the richer side of things, which usually doesn't sacrifice any significant power on spray.

 

93 octane, fresh fuel

[bikefrk]

Spinning through 2nd and banging off of the rev limiter will do that

The first pass that night on the bottle I did spin in 1st, never hit the limiter. Shift light is set at 10,800 and that is when I shifted every time.

[bikefrk]

But all this doesn't matter I guess. I am going back to the GEN 2 pistons and rods and am done spraying. It isn't worth the .4 of a second that I will get on a perfect run. Really.

[glenn71]

checkout your deck height,did it have a 40 thou spacer?

[Gixx1525R]

Was the timing retarded or advanced?

[bikefrk]

What kind of fuel were you using?
Are you using the gen 2 ecu nitrous control? My guess is that the ecu didn't  add fuel for your bike.

Ryan used to tune a bit on the lean side of things (which isn't necessarily a problem), but this tune is actually a bit on the richer side of things, which usually doesn't sacrifice any significant power on spray.

 

So what size was the base spacer again?

Don't have any idea yet.

[bikefrk]

Was the timing retarded or advanced?

:shrugs:

[from9rto1k]

reguardless of what anyone says i wouldnt spray on 93 octane...i woulda used a good race fuel just to be safe

[Blue08Busa]

Not an expert here, but what did you have as far as  a fuel pump.  My understanding is that the fuel pump needs upgraded for much more than a 30 shot on a Gen II.

[bikefrk]

I'm just gonna leave this topic alone now. I am getting more and more frustrated as the tear down progresses and the advice flows in.

I trusted a build and it failed. I don't know why.

All I know is I twisted the throttle and shifted as I should and I got three passes out of it on the spray.

I have no desire to spray again, so I guess this is topic closed.

[Draco1340]

Not an expert here, but what did you have as far as  a fuel pump.  My understanding is that the fuel pump needs upgraded for much more than a 30 shot on a Gen II.

I have over 1500 nitrous passes on a GenII with stock pistons.  The fuel pumps will not withstand anything more than a 30 dry shot.  On the dyno it will look fine, but on a datalogger you will start to see 4th and 5th gear lean right out after 5 seconds WOT.  The pump tries to keep up, but over a period of time gives up.  I replaced the first OEM pump after 1 year of running a 30 shot.  The second pump wouldn't keep up at all so I went with an external aftermarket.  Spend the money on an aftermarket pump (Bosch or Walbro) and a regulator, and the tune won't change on you.  I'm sure Ryan's tune was just fine.  Your pump just puked.

[GSXRTURBO1]

fantastic info for gen II owners who are or want to spray 

[gnd111]

Bike shifts at 10,800 but the spray is on till 11,000 so that means it is still spraying when the motor cuts for the shift.  That could be the problem...

[Red]

I replaced the first OEM pump after 1 year of running a 30 shot. 

The second pump wouldn't keep up at all so I went with an external aftermarket. 

Spend the money on an aftermarket pump and a regulator, and the tune won't change on you. 

I'm sure Ryan's tune was just fine. 

Your pump just puked.

Who has the best price on a new fuel pump ?

Will any inline external pump work ?

What PSI is good PSI ?

Red,    *<(:{)-

[Draco1340]

The Walbro 255 works, and can be purchased on line for as little as $90.  The Bosch unit is also good, but more expensive.  What pressure you set depends on your application.  Unless your maxed out on injector duty cycle, set it at stock 42 psi.  You also need a regulator.

[badass1000]

draco has a very nice tank shell/seat pan one piece unit he custom built.  very nice light weight setup. 
I just put the bosch pump in my stock tank and stock fuel pump houseing.  it works with little modification.  still run the stock fuel presure regulator, filter, etc...

put gen 1 valves, ape valve springs, and cams in last week. installing nitrous now.  going to run 4 number 24 jets and nitrous regulator set at 700psi for now and see how it works.  got the idea from draco.  can't wait to see how it works.

[whtrthanu]

i have 100 shot on a BONE STOCK MOTOR!!!!!   it hasnt broke yet....I know i will torch a valve soon enough...but you guys aint tuning right....STOCK PUMP STOCK INJECTORS!!  mapped thru the ecu.... you need to set the spray bar up right and make sure its evenly distributed.....the stock fuel system is fine to over 300hp greg smith has proven it plenty......
GOOD FUEL AND A GOOD TUNE UP!!!!!!   these things have 12.5:1 compression stock!!!!!  they almost detonate on motor already.....you add some spray and your fucked.....

by the way, that set up is sweet draco!!!!!

[sportbikeryder]

i have 100 shot on a BONE STOCK MOTOR!!!!!   it hasnt broke yet....I know i will torch a valve soon enough...but you guys aint tuning right....STOCK PUMP STOCK INJECTORS!!  mapped thru the ecu.... you need to set the spray bar up right and make sure its evenly distributed.....the stock fuel system is fine to over 300hp greg smith has proven it plenty......
GOOD FUEL AND A GOOD TUNE UP!!!!!!   these things have 12.5:1 compression stock!!!!!  they almost detonate on motor already.....you add some spray and your fucked.....

by the way, that set up is sweet draco!!!!!

Greg did not use a stock fuel pump.

[smithabusa]

Yep upgraded pump here from rcc turbos but stock injectors

[whtrthanu]

well im at alittle over 270 and i got plenty of fuel to go more.......

[Draco1340]

I don't doubt that people (including myself) have gotten big HP numbers on the stock pump.  But the fact is that the stock pump was designed for a 190 HP motor.  Unless you log every pass with a logger and watch for the pump to go soft, there is a very serious risk that you will blow the motor when the pump pukes on you.
.02$

[bikefrk]

Ehhhh, wasn't the nitrous at all. Looks like the "builder"  didn't use the proper base gasket and the pistons kissed the head.

There you go, problem solved, I'm still going back to stock Gen 2 rods and pistons.

Gonna work my game and get it to run a consistent 9.3* and just be fucking happy with that. I only go to the strip 5-8 times a year so it will be fine.

[bikefrk]

Btw, lots of good info in here.

Anyone interested in bottles, ECU setup for spraying and assorted other crap to spray?

50 cents on the dollar for it all.

[Blue08Busa]

Out of curiosity, what size bottles and how much?

[jgennaro]

Ehhhh, wasn't the nitrous at all. Looks like the "builder"  didn't use the proper base gasket and the pistons kissed the head.

There you go, problem solved, I'm still going back to stock Gen 2 rods and pistons.

Gonna work my game and get it to run a consistent 9.3* and just be fucking happy with that. I only go to the strip 5-8 times a year so it will be fine.

+1

I've got the same set-up and had to go with a .125 spacer.  If you need stock rods and pistons I have the rods and can give you a great deal on them.  If you want mine send me a PM and pick your price.  Good luck bro.

[bikefrk]

Out of curiosity, what size bottles and how much?

Sorry I haven't responded. One bottle was from http://www.dynotunenitrous.com/store/Scripts/default.asp with a gauge and the other was a local purchase from the "builder".

I would let them both go with gauges mounted to the bottles for $150 shipped.

One is a 2lb, the other is a 2.5lb.

Sorry for the slow response. My wife is in the ICU with a broken back. Been a little busy with that.

[bikefrk]

Ehhhh, wasn't the nitrous at all. Looks like the "builder"  didn't use the proper base gasket and the pistons kissed the head.

There you go, problem solved, I'm still going back to stock Gen 2 rods and pistons.

Gonna work my game and get it to run a consistent 9.3* and just be fucking happy with that. I only go to the strip 5-8 times a year so it will be fine.

+1

I've got the same set-up and had to go with a .125 spacer.  If you need stock rods and pistons I have the rods and can give you a great deal on them.  If you want mine send me a PM and pick your price.  Good luck bro.

Thanks for the offer. I still had the stock stuff and it is all back in the bike. It is running really well now.

[6002abusa]

I feel your pain. I floated a valve and spit a shim on the first trip out with a well tuned 40 shot. I went with s/s valves and 65# APE springs. I bumped up to a 48hp shot with a crushed regulator and a tune with the Bazzaz auto tune. Something is wrong now after 50 or so passes.. I ran 146 on the spray. Maybe its just clogged .018 jets. Its a Spider kit and it uses 4 jets. It has happened before. If they look clear I'm doing a compression test. We will see.

[bikefrk]

I feel your pain. I floated a valve and spit a shim on the first trip out with a well tuned 40 shot. I went with s/s valves and 65# APE springs. I bumped up to a 48hp shot with a crushed regulator and a tune with the Bazzaz auto tune. Something is wrong now after 50 or so passes.. I ran 146 on the spray. Maybe its just clogged .018 jets. Its a Spider kit and it uses 4 jets. It has happened before. If they look clear I'm doing a compression test. We will see.

Good luck. I took my bike back to the strip last Friday with the motor back to stock specs and no spray.

Lowered on the second hole with the front slid up an inch i went 9.50@150mph. Not to bad at all I think.

If I can get my 60' down from a 1.6* I will get the ET where I want it to be.