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Author Topic: 1000cc bikes vs Busa's  (Read 42815 times)

Offline Kirk

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Re: 1000cc bikes vs Busa's
« Reply #50 on: November 25, 2011, 01:23:08 PM »
...and here is a shot of me on the R1, knee down in the same corner, grinding down absolutely nothing:

« Last Edit: November 25, 2011, 01:25:18 PM by Kirk »
-Kirk

Offline Busashot

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Re: 1000cc bikes vs Busa's
« Reply #51 on: November 25, 2011, 06:58:10 PM »
That's because I may not be as good as you to be honest. I go pretty fast but I like I said before, lean angle isn't always an indicator of how fast you are for the average guy but at the same time most people have the perception that you have to have a knee down or even an elbow down to be fast....that's not entirely true. I've run with a few guys who are so leaned over you'd think they had the track record but here I am right behind them and they are not pulling away. Again the faster you become the lean angle needed will have to be utilized as there is no way around that unless you like going off the track at every corner  :hys: .....

Most of my experience was on the street before doing track days. Come this next year I am actually going to try my take at racing but on a 600cc bike. Corner speed is so incredible on 600s.....
« Last Edit: November 25, 2011, 06:59:49 PM by Busashot »

Offline Busashot

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Re: 1000cc bikes vs Busa's
« Reply #52 on: November 25, 2011, 07:15:12 PM »
The other issue was that the Hayabusa could easily shred a $500 pair of race tires in one race, but the same tires would last an entire day on the R1. 

And that the truth!!!! Pain in my wallet....and I don't do that many track days......Street tires hold up better but damn if they suck after a few hard laps.....slip sliding.....all goooey and worthless until you rest for 15 minutes in the shade.....

For the money the Pirelli Superbike Pros are the best for fast track days and for average fast race day riders. They were designed for track day riders in the first place. They last a long effing time and only run $365 shipped......on a litre bike I have seen them last about 3 good track days in about 60' to 85' days.

Offline Kirk

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Re: 1000cc bikes vs Busa's
« Reply #53 on: November 25, 2011, 08:36:23 PM »
Come this next year I am actually going to try my take at racing but on a 600cc bike. Corner speed is so incredible on 600s.....
 

You should see the 125s.  Watching 125s passing the 650s look about as safe as throwing steel lawn darts in a crowded shopping mall.  :shock:

What kind of 600? I've always admired the Triumph Daytona 675.   :tu: 
-Kirk

Offline Kirk

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Re: 1000cc bikes vs Busa's
« Reply #54 on: November 25, 2011, 08:42:31 PM »
The other issue was that the Hayabusa could easily shred a $500 pair of race tires in one race, but the same tires would last an entire day on the R1. 

And that the truth!!!! Pain in my wallet....and I don't do that many track days......Street tires hold up better but damn if they suck after a few hard laps.....slip sliding.....all goooey and worthless until you rest for 15 minutes in the shade.....

For the money the Pirelli Superbike Pros are the best for fast track days and for average fast race day riders. They were designed for track day riders in the first place. They last a long effing time and only run $365 shipped......on a litre bike I have seen them last about 3 good track days in about 60' to 85' days.
 

I have no experience with them, but I am a Pirelli rider.  Those red-stripe slicks look like a good bet for an endurance bike if you're trying to get away without changing the front tire, or to minimize rear tire changes if you have an 8-gallon gas tank.  :lol:     
-Kirk

Offline Busashot

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Re: 1000cc bikes vs Busa's
« Reply #55 on: November 25, 2011, 09:32:39 PM »
Come this next year I am actually going to try my take at racing but on a 600cc bike. Corner speed is so incredible on 600s.....
 

You should see the 125s.  Watching 125s passing the 650s look about as safe as throwing steel lawn darts in a crowded shopping mall.  :shock:

What kind of 600? I've always admired the Triumph Daytona 675.   :tu: 

Well I picked up 2008 Ninja 250 to also race in a 250 class that may or may not happen but there is the Vintage class that allows the 250 Ninja in it......those are a hoot too but boring on the straights........if you have decent DOT tires on the 250 Ninja I have seen some killer corner speeds from a few good riders.....

A Kawasaki 636 by the way

Offline Busashot

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Re: 1000cc bikes vs Busa's
« Reply #56 on: November 25, 2011, 09:37:30 PM »

The 675 has top notch parts and is truly the best in the 600 class IMHO. I just don't trust Triumph reliability as well as repair cost associated with some European machinery......

Offline Kirk

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Re: 1000cc bikes vs Busa's
« Reply #57 on: November 25, 2011, 11:18:33 PM »
An '05-06 636 is fine for a novice 600 bike.  A little extra engine displacement, and they should crash well, with the exhaust up under the tail.  

I think it's a smart move to put the 250 Supersports on track at the same time as the vintage classes. Those guys tend to be real gentlemen (read: act like grown-ups) when they race.  

The EX250 does have a lot less horsepower than a 125, the EX250 chassis is pretty crude as compared to a 125, and the EX250 weighs over twice as much as a 125, resulting in about a 40 mph greater top speed and phenomenally higher cornering speed for the slick-shod 125.  125GP and 250 Supersport would be a poor match.  

Your corner speed would generally be higher than the vintage bikes, and some of them may be passing you on the straights, but your biggest challenge is to make sure to watch out for the 160s.  A single race-prepped CB-160 is capable of about 75 mph all by itself, with a normal-sized rider in a full race tuck.  Two or more drafting can reach speeds of 85 mph.  As a race official, I have verified this multiple times by radar.  I'm guessing that a Supersport-prepped EX250 is probably capable of just a hair over 100 mph, depending on rider size and how good your tuck is.  Ass-packing 160s has never been a good idea, so just keep your eyes open, in case one of them comes out of a draft to attempt a pass and moves directly into your line.  

The Bridgestone DOT-approved BT003RS radial tires for the EX250 work pretty well, with a 140 on the rear, which shouldn't slow down the handling or acceleration too much:

« Last Edit: November 26, 2011, 12:48:55 AM by Kirk »
-Kirk

Offline Kirk

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Re: 1000cc bikes vs Busa's
« Reply #58 on: November 25, 2011, 11:25:58 PM »

The 675 has top notch parts and is truly the best in the 600 class IMHO. I just don't trust Triumph reliability as well as repair cost associated with some European machinery......

I see what you're saying, but I would trust it with a stock engine (just a full-race Arrow titanium exhaust system and a Power Commander, with pump gas), especially if I was the only one riding it (not using it for endurance races with other riders).  A stock, piped 675 is going to produce more horsepower than a full-on Supersport-prepped Japanese 600 on race gas, the engine is going to be narrower (allowing higher mid-corner speeds), and they should crash pretty well with the exhaust up under the tail.  It's also going to have LOADS more torque than any 600.  The 675 would be my first choice for a 600 race bike.

I've lost count of how many times the Daytona 675 has slayed every other 600 in magazine 600 Supersport shoot-out testing.
-Kirk

Offline Kirk

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Re: 1000cc bikes vs Busa's
« Reply #59 on: November 26, 2011, 12:00:40 AM »
160 racing is cool:

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/v/zpc7GkgBDrE?version=3&amp;amp;hl=en_US" target="_blank" class="new_win">http://www.youtube.com/v/zpc7GkgBDrE?version=3&amp;amp;hl=en_US</a>
-Kirk

Offline Kirk

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Re: 1000cc bikes vs Busa's
« Reply #60 on: November 26, 2011, 12:15:11 AM »
125s are cool too. 

11 year old Peter Lenz's first ride on a 125 (a 15 year old bike with a torched cylinder), showing us why 125s are only a foot and a half wide.  Peter's death was a great loss to the sport- that kid would have been the next Valentino Rossi:

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/v/jnm5VeZIl_8?version=3&amp;amp;hl=en_US" target="_blank" class="new_win">http://www.youtube.com/v/jnm5VeZIl_8?version=3&amp;amp;hl=en_US</a>

Listen to his maturity as a racer:

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/v/RZiH8UT6hHA?version=3&amp;amp;hl=en_US" target="_blank" class="new_win">http://www.youtube.com/v/RZiH8UT6hHA?version=3&amp;amp;hl=en_US</a>
-Kirk

Offline Kirk

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Re: 1000cc bikes vs Busa's
« Reply #61 on: November 26, 2011, 12:38:36 AM »
250 Supersport (EX250 "Ninja" class):

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/v/2WOYlZai51M?version=3&amp;amp;hl=en_US" target="_blank" class="new_win">http://www.youtube.com/v/2WOYlZai51M?version=3&amp;amp;hl=en_US</a>
-Kirk

Offline Busashot

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Re: 1000cc bikes vs Busa's
« Reply #62 on: November 28, 2011, 09:50:02 PM »
sweet 250r clip

Offline bryanclapper69

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Re: 1000cc bikes vs Busa's
« Reply #63 on: December 08, 2011, 09:41:00 AM »
stk for stk a 05-08 1000 is faster than a busa with a lite rider

Offline teezy

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Re: 1000cc bikes vs Busa's
« Reply #64 on: December 08, 2011, 12:51:31 PM »
Why are the limitations of the busa vs the gsxr 1000 when it comes to going fast?

 I have been told by many that a 1k even built is a ticking time bomb due to all the material and support that SUZUKI removed from the case,block etc to reduce weight.
In the begining I wanted 140's in the 1/4...
never thought it would go 140's in the 1/8


one very pissed off 1397cc we call MR ANGRY

Offline Kirk

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Re: 1000cc bikes vs Busa's
« Reply #65 on: December 08, 2011, 01:49:40 PM »
Why are the limitations of the busa vs the gsxr 1000 when it comes to going fast?

 I have been told by many that a 1k even built is a ticking time bomb due to all the material and support that SUZUKI removed from the case,block etc to reduce weight.

You were told wrong.

They are both EXTREMELY reliable engines.  It is not uncommon for racers to enter Gixxer 1000s in 4-hour endurance races, and recruit additional riders at the track, who will simply pitch in for tire expenses (and to pay for their own crash repairs).  These bikes will do a bunch of regular races all year, do several 4-hour endurance races, with the engine spending around 12 hours at or near red line each season, and after several seasons, they are still as fast as they were when they were new.  An engine failure would be EXTREMELY unusual.  They are about as reliable as an anvil.
-Kirk

Offline Kirk

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Re: 1000cc bikes vs Busa's
« Reply #66 on: December 08, 2011, 01:51:25 PM »
stk for stk a 05-08 1000 is faster than a busa with a lite rider

Lol.  :lol:

Under what conditions are you claiming this?
-Kirk

Offline teezy

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Re: 1000cc bikes vs Busa's
« Reply #67 on: December 08, 2011, 01:57:44 PM »

You were told wrong.

They are both EXTREMELY reliable engines.  It is not uncommon for racers to enter Gixxer 1000s in 4-hour endurance races, and recruit additional riders at the track, who will simply pitch in for tire expenses (and to pay for their own crash repairs).  These bikes will do a bunch of regular races all year, do several 4-hour endurance races, with the engine spending around 12 hours at or near red line each season, and after several seasons, they are still as fast as they were when they were new.  An engine failure would be EXTREMELY unusual.  They are about as reliable as an anvil.

I was kinda refering to fast 1k's. Like 8 sec plus bikes. PHRASED MY STATEMENT WRONG
« Last Edit: December 08, 2011, 02:00:22 PM by teezy »
In the begining I wanted 140's in the 1/4...
never thought it would go 140's in the 1/8


one very pissed off 1397cc we call MR ANGRY

Offline Kirk

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Re: 1000cc bikes vs Busa's
« Reply #68 on: December 08, 2011, 02:05:06 PM »
I just re-read this thread, and I gotta admit, I got pretty choked up about the death of Peter Lenz.  

We used to watch him when he was little, racing pocket bikes in the little race course we set up for them in the pits at our races.  This was before he moved on to go-kart tracks on the NSR50(R?).  He was always faster than everyone else.  Not just a little faster, he just simply rode away from everyone else, like he was completely unaware that he was a little kid racing against other little kids.  He had a racing maturity that always exceeded his years.  If someone else got a hole-shot on him, he would sit back and study them, plotting a passing solution that he would then execute with surgical precision.  That kid was really something.

Here he is racing his bone stock 2004 NSR50(R?) in 2006, at age 9, in both the stock and modified 50 classes at a go-kart track:

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/v/FyvzWnNnBgU?version=3&amp;amp;hl=en_US" target="_blank" class="new_win">http://www.youtube.com/v/FyvzWnNnBgU?version=3&amp;amp;hl=en_US</a>

-Kirk

Offline Kirk

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Re: 1000cc bikes vs Busa's
« Reply #69 on: December 08, 2011, 02:09:28 PM »

You were told wrong.

They are both EXTREMELY reliable engines.  It is not uncommon for racers to enter Gixxer 1000s in 4-hour endurance races, and recruit additional riders at the track, who will simply pitch in for tire expenses (and to pay for their own crash repairs).  These bikes will do a bunch of regular races all year, do several 4-hour endurance races, with the engine spending around 12 hours at or near red line each season, and after several seasons, they are still as fast as they were when they were new.  An engine failure would be EXTREMELY unusual.  They are about as reliable as an anvil.

I was kinda refering to fast 1k's. Like 8 sec plus bikes. PHRASED MY STATEMENT WRONG

Sure, I understand.

Although it is technically possible to put nearly stock ones in the 8s, I now understand that you are talking about bikes with substantial engine modifications.  Yes, the Hayabusa is pretty "over-built", and will tolerate more than the lighter 1000 engine.  But I would not term the 1000 "a ticking time bomb".  Actually, my biggest concern about drag racing a 1000, would be the smaller 1000 clutch having to endure MUCH more abuse, from having to slip it so much more.  They Hayabusa has a much larger clutch, and doesn't require nearly as much slip to get it going.
-Kirk

Offline SEJ

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Re: 1000cc bikes vs Busa's
« Reply #70 on: December 21, 2011, 11:30:59 AM »
'For all practical purposes, the Hayabusa has more lean angle available than reasonable people use in reasonable situations, so it's dimensions are not an impediment.  And with it's wide-ratio transmission and excess of instantly-accessible torque, it doesn't require the furious down-shifting of a liter bike, especially a short-stroke liter bike and/or one with an OEM exhaust header containing an exhaust flapper valve (they generally cause a huge hole right in the middle of the torque curve).  In spontaneous situations, the Hayabusa is always going to have an advantage.'

Hey Kirk,

Have you ever ridden an 05'-06' GSX-R 1000? There is no furious downshifting required at all !!! Ride it like a Busa...put it in 6th and use your right wrist. These will out roll-on a Busa in any gear! I own both and know what I'm talking about. They are mid range MONSTERS!
These are long stroke motors (59mm - same as old 1127 air/oilcooled gixxer motors) and make a lot of torque. The exhaust valve in the stock header actually prevents the hole in the middle of the torque curve that you are refering to... This is where people go wrong when adding a slip-on, it kills mid-range. The bike accelerates through this hole then "comes on the pipe" with a big hit which fools them into thinking that their bike is now stronger. (plus the louder exhaust helps this deception)They actually lost power & torque which results in slower acceleration. Like I said earlier, I've been 9.74@ 146.62 mph with a stock pipe! I'm old and rusty (made it to the dragstrip once in 2011 & twice in 2010), I actually feel that I should have at least been 9.60's. I do agree with just about everything else you have mentioned though... Busa is best all around bike that I have ever owned!! And I've owned more than I can count...
222.66 MPH at the Ohio Mile
201.52 MPH in the 1/2 Mile
12 lbs. boost
01' Turbo GSX-R 1000

Offline Busashot

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Re: 1000cc bikes vs Busa's
« Reply #71 on: December 21, 2011, 11:37:54 AM »
I agree with the 05and 06s are excellent in the midrange. Those are still my first choice for a track bike at a lot of smaller tracks.

Offline SEJ

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Re: 1000cc bikes vs Busa's
« Reply #72 on: December 22, 2011, 06:11:11 AM »
Yeah, I'm in the process of building 2 different 06's... One for track days and the other a street/strip bike.
222.66 MPH at the Ohio Mile
201.52 MPH in the 1/2 Mile
12 lbs. boost
01' Turbo GSX-R 1000

Offline Kirk

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Re: 1000cc bikes vs Busa's
« Reply #73 on: December 22, 2011, 01:14:31 PM »
I'll be the first to admit that the 77x53.6mm 5-valve motor in my R1 does not have the same area under the torque curve as compared to the 73.4x59mm 4-valve motor of the '05-'06 Gixxer 1000.  That said, I've ridden WITH those bikes.

My Hayabusa vs. '05 Gixxer 1000 experiences include race track AND drag strip comparisons, including a VERY telling experience at the drag strip against a very well prepared Supersport race-prepped '05 with a top local (as in AMA pro racing capable) rider, alongside my Hayabusa (valve cover never been off), and I dumped him like a dirty shirt.  At the drag strip, the additional 2.6" of wheelbase allowed me to get the jump on him, and at the race track, the aerodynamics of the Hayabusa causes them to fall out of my draft above 150 mph.  

My R1 vs. '05 Gixxer 1000 experiences include race track AND drag strip comparisons as well.  In the interest of fairness, I should note that my R1 is equipped with a full aftermarket racing exhaust that eliminates the "EXUP" exhaust flapper valve- with a decent map in the Power Commander, it fills in the "hole" centered at about 7,500 rpm, to the tune of about 20-25 horsepower (no kidding!), although the bike only gained about 6 horsepower up top.  The '05 Gixxer 1000s are CLEARLY faster than the pre-'05 models.  At the top of the powerband, they are comparable enough with my R1 that it obviously comes down to differences in skill between riders (as it often does in these types of situations).  On the drag strip, I've done surprisingly well against them.  On the road racing course, I've had them get away from me, and I've had them not able to keep up- either way, the bikes themselves seem pretty close.  

To the average street rider, I'm sure that the light weight and low-rpm power of the Gixxer makes it feel really powerful, making them a lot easier to live with (especially if you gear them down a little), and the short wheelbase isn't as much of a problem, because you're not doing 8000 rpm race launches.

Due to it's shorter wheelbase, the '05 Gixxer 1000 is never going to perform like the 3.2" longer Hayabusa through first gear.  

And due to the Hayabusa's better aerodynamics, the '05 Gixxer 1000 is never going to perform like a Hayabusa above about 150 mph.

The narrower engine and lighter weight of ANY 1000 makes it a better choice for EXPERT level ROAD RACING.  
« Last Edit: December 22, 2011, 01:23:09 PM by Kirk »
-Kirk

Offline gsx-rboy750

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Re: 1000cc bikes vs Busa's
« Reply #74 on: December 22, 2011, 02:49:35 PM »
My Hayabusa vs. '05 Gixxer 1000 experiences include race track AND drag strip comparisons, including a VERY telling experience at the drag strip against a very well prepared Supersport race-prepped '05 with a top local (as in AMA pro racing capable) rider, alongside my Hayabusa (valve cover never been off), and I dumped him like a dirty shirt.  At the drag strip, the additional 2.6" of wheelbase allowed me to get the jump on him, And due to the Hayabusa's better aerodynamics, the '05 Gixxer 1000 is never going to perform like a Hayabusa above about 150 mph.


He was not preforming at a AMA pro racing capability that day if you shit on him under those circumstances. I have seen 05s with BA riders on them and they do the shitting!