1000cc bikes vs Busa's

[SEJ]

So Kirk... You have NOT actually ridden an 05'-06' GSX-R 1000. Please read my posts. I own both of these bike at the present time. I've owned my 99' Busa for 10 years and bought my 05" 1000 new! My 05' 1000 has more ROLL-ON power than my Busa with less mods... I do not get to the tracks nearly as often anymore than I would like, but I have 25+ years of dragstrip experience and 15 years experience on roadrace tracks... The R1's are notorious for lack of mid-range (post 03', pre crossplane). Did you notice that I trapped at 146.62 with a stock exhaust! Did it this year my only time to the track( Nov. 5th at Edgewater ) to make my NHRA licensing passes. These 05'-06's are not typical of most 1000's. I'm just replying to the original post and your own comments. You need to ride one! And not one that has been neutered of it's mid-range by a cheap slip-on with no tuning all in the name of "it sounds better".

Oh by the way...the picture up on the left is this old fart(me) 10 years ago on an ancient 85' GSX-R 750 (Canadien model)/ 1109cc(1052), ported head,38 Flatslides, Yosh duplex, Yosh underbraced swingarm, Fox shock, 90' front end, 17' wheels, etc. blah blah blah at Putnam Park turn 8# (Dead Bear)... 

[Kirk]

So Kirk... You have NOT actually ridden an 05'-06' GSX-R 1000. Please read my posts. I own both of these bike at the present time. I've owned my 99' Busa for 10 years and bought my 05" 1000 new! My 05' 1000 has more ROLL-ON power than my Busa with less mods... I do not get to the tracks nearly as often anymore than I would like, but I have 25+ years of dragstrip experience and 15 years experience on roadrace tracks... The R1's are notorious for lack of mid-range (post 03', pre crossplane). Did you notice that I trapped at 146.62 with a stock exhaust! Did it this year my only time to the track( Nov. 5th at Edgewater ) to make my NHRA licensing passes. These 05'-06's are not typical of most 1000's. I'm just replying to the original post and your own comments.

Yes, however, your experience does not negate my experiences.  My drag racing experience spans a third of a century, and I have served as a road racing instructor and a race official- I'm not just pulling this stuff out of someone's butt.

We've both owned unrestricted Gen I Hayabusas and '04-'05 1000 cc Japanese Supersports.

We both have drag racing and road racing experience, and our competency has resulted in both of us receiving (expert?) racing licenses.

We both agree that the '04-'06 R1 might as well be a turbocharged 600.

We both agree that the '05+ Gixxer 1000 is much better than the earlier ones, and among the stronger 1000 cc bikes.

And "roll-on" is a type of deodorant.  Who freekin' cares.  The race track (and drag strip, I guess) determines what is faster and what is not.

[SEJ]

Kirk,

I never said, nor even implied anywhere that my experience "negates" yours. If you look at page 2 of this topic, you will see that I've actually been quicker at the dragstrip on my Busa than my 1000.
These bike are very evenly matched and it comes down to the rider. I put a lot of street miles on both of these bikes, and can tell you that my 1000 is marginally stronger. Period. It is easier on a Busa to go fast than it is on a 1000 for the average rider, whether it's at the dragstrip or on the street. If your not careful, a 1000 wants to kill you on the street. ( I'm not talking stoplight to stoplight) Remember that torque rules on the street...meaning that roll-on power means way more than deodorant... You might not care, but most of us do. Unless you are constantly, or only on racetracks (maybe you are?) we all know that either of these bikes are way too fast to be pulling the trigger on the street very often. Meaning that instant grunt means everything on the street. That's why I love both of these bikes so much! Twist your right wrist and you are GONE!!! hehehehe

[Kirk]

Yeah, I'm really not trying for this to be any kind of an argument between you and I.  Maybe my limited English skills are making that point less clear than it should be.  Have a nice day. 

[Busashot]

I say take it to the tracks.........

Roll-ons do matter as they can tell a lot on how a bike will motor out of a corner and short straights.......I haven't been at big enough tracks to showcase the Hayabusa's advantage after 150mph so I can't say much there. Average tracks the GSXR 1K is an animal but requires a good rider to tame it. Our local track is dominated by 600s. The nearest 1K is a second slower.

[Kirk]

Our local track is dominated by 600s. The nearest 1K is a second slower.

Oh...my...goodness.

Are you going to get everyone's panties in a twist by saying that the '05-'06 Gixxer 1000 is slower than the 600s at your track? 

[Busashot]

Short straights, tight corners and narrow corners. You can't quite carry as much corner speed in some of those tight turns with a litre+ size bike.

[Kirk]

Yeah, I'm just kidding.  Lighter, narrower bikes, ESPECIALLY ones with less flywheel effect from smaller engine internals.  That's just the way it works.  Any track day rider who's ever been fast enough to get his 1000 cc bike into the "A" group and then get dropped by a 125 understands what we're talking about.

Here's 10 year old Peter Lenz (before his death), on a 125 that's been DOWNGRADED with an engine that has only about half the horsepower of a full-boogie 125.  His bike only had 22 horsepower, and a top speed of 90 mph, but during this day (a California Superbike School conducted at The Streets Of Willow), he made over 300 passes, against every kind of sporting motorcycle up to and including many 1000cc bikes.  For context, the camera bike/rider is Will Eikenberry, the track record holder, on his 600 race bike:

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/v/kU6xrs7SOCc?version=3&amp;amp;hl=en_US" target="_blank" class="new_win">http://www.youtube.com/v/kU6xrs7SOCc?version=3&amp;amp;hl=en_US</a>

My best explanation for being on track with 125s is that their passes are like watching someone throw steel lawn darts in a crowded shopping mall.

[Kirk]

11 year old Peter's first time on a 125 (a clapped out 15+ year old one with a torched piston and a bent front end ):

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/v/jnm5VeZIl_8?version=3&amp;amp;hl=en_US" target="_blank" class="new_win">http://www.youtube.com/v/jnm5VeZIl_8?version=3&amp;amp;hl=en_US</a>

I get a little choked up watching him.  We used to watch him when he was a little kid.  He got his start with our racing association, racing in the pocket bike class.  He was just always head and shoulders faster than anybody else.  That kid would have been the next Valentino Rossi.

[gsx-rboy750]

11 year old Peter's first time on a 125 (a clapped out 15+ year old one with a torched piston and a bent front end ):

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/v/jnm5VeZIl_8?version=3&amp;amp;hl=en_US" target="_blank" class="new_win">http://www.youtube.com/v/jnm5VeZIl_8?version=3&amp;amp;hl=en_US</a>

I get a little choked up watching him.  We used to watch him when he was a little kid.  He got his start with our racing association, racing in the pocket bike class.  He was just always head and shoulders faster than anybody else.  That kid would have been the next Valentino Rossi.

Hell of a rider! Too bad the good do die young. I even got a little choked up watching the vid. reminds me of my friend who tough me to ride who is no longer around.

[Busashot]

The truth hurts. The best 1K rider could not beat the best 600 rider. Just the way it is. The second best 600 rider is quicker than the best 1K rider. The facts are the facts. Corner speed is better on the 600s......we have a few tight corners and even the widest turn is not advantageous for the 1Ks.....

Sandia Motor Speedway

[Kirk]

The truth hurts. The best 1K rider could not beat the best 600 rider. Just the way it is. The second best 600 rider is quicker than the best 1K rider. The facts are the facts. Corner speed is better on the 600s......we have a few tight corners and even the widest turn is not advantageous for the 1Ks.....

Sandia Motor Speedway

Just looked up the track info.  I was getting ready to make a moderately clever comment regarding how a well set-up CRF450R 'tard might do as compared to the 600s that you mention, and then I took an onboard lap via youtube...holy crap- that has to be the most unsafe track I think I've ever seen.  Zero runoff, followed immediately by freeking concrete.  Who in their right mind would even run there?  Who would allow them to?  That's just messed up.  Buddy- buy a little more gas and go somewhere safe.  Anywhere.  Damn.

[Busashot]

Well the dark path is the best path for bikes. Also running it clockwise is about the best bet well at least the fastest when coming out of what you see as turn 1 but is turn 7 when running clockwise. Of all the wrecks we have had almost all have been in a corner with enough room to crash plus the speed isn't fast enough in most of the corners. But I do agree it's not the safest track out there.

Oh the Pits are actually where the Paddock is located so you know. In turn 7 there is no wall there so you can run off quite a bit into an open area which I have had to do twice.

[Busashot]

This was filmed at our track as well.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VYpOFimB7ZA

[Kirk]

Well the dark path is the best path for bikes. Also running it clockwise is about the best bet well at least the fastest when coming out of what you see as turn 1 but is turn 7 when running clockwise. Of all the wrecks we have had almost all have been in a corner with enough room to crash plus the speed isn't fast enough in most of the corners. But I do agree it's not the safest track out there.

Oh the Pits are actually where the Paddock is located so you know. In turn 7 there is no wall there so you can run off quite a bit into an open area which I have had to do twice.

The first video I looked up on youtube was a car running the track in the opposite direction, and all I saw was those concrete barriers.  Either way, it looks like a fairly scary place to ride or race.  Race tracks are supposed to be MORE safe than riding on the street, not less safe.  

[Kirk]

This was filmed at our track as well.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VYpOFimB7ZA

Dude...what was the point of that? 

Drifting is not a motorsport.  Show me motorcycle road racing.  Show me supermoto.  Heck, show me pocket bike racing.  But don't show me stuff like that. 

You've got more guts than I do, to ride your Hayabusa at that track.  You have my respect.  I like you, man.  But as a friend, I have to ask- Please don't do stuff like that to my eyeballs again. 

[FlatlandBusa]

This was filmed at our track as well.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VYpOFimB7ZA

Dude...what was the point of that? 

That was the gayest thing I've seen in a long time, and for reference purposes, I just saw an article on msn about George Michael's diminished T-cell count or something like that.   

Drifting is not a motorsport.  Show me motorcycle road racing.  Show me supermoto.  Heck, show me pocket bike racing.  But don't show me stuff like that. 

You've got more guts than I do, to ride your Hayabusa at that track.  You have my respect.  I like you, man.  But as a friend, I have to ask- Please don't do stuff like that to my eyeballs again. 

Kirk calm down,, your just jello you can't do that without taking a moonshot.

[Busashot]

This was filmed at our track as well.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VYpOFimB7ZA

Dude...what was the point of that? 

That was the gayest thing I've seen in a long time, and for reference purposes, I just saw an article on msn about George Michael's diminished T-cell count or something like that.   

Drifting is not a motorsport.  Show me motorcycle road racing.  Show me supermoto.  Heck, show me pocket bike racing.  But don't show me stuff like that. 

You've got more guts than I do, to ride your Hayabusa at that track.  You have my respect.  I like you, man.  But as a friend, I have to ask- Please don't do stuff like that to my eyeballs again. 

Hahah.....its cool....that was just a decent video to see the track as it almost appears to look like instead of the GoPros or Pen camsthat do not give you a better view of the actual action IMHO

[Kirk]

After I realized you guys run it in the other direction, my youtube-fu detected that "SMRI" is a more productive search criteria. 

Still checkin' it out... 

[Kirk]

Got side-tracked reading the SMRI's club racing rulebook.  Looks like a CRF450R Supermotard fits in five classes, and the Daytona 675 fits in six:

A. Unlimited GP (Feature Race)
1. Season points determine the next years top ten expert number plate holders
2. Expert Only
3. Unlimited Configuration

CRF450R Supermotard or Daytona 675

B. Open Superbike
1. Production based 4 strokes
2. Unlimited displacement
3. Unlimited cylinder configuration
4. See Section 2.3 for further requirements

CRF450R Supermotard or Daytona 675

C. Formula 1000
1. Production based 4 strokes
2. 750cc displacement and above machines only
3. Unlimited cylinder configuration
4. See Section 2.3 for further requirements

Pass.  No point in buying a Gixxer 750 for just one class.  Probably be a good time to go visit the ambulance for a quick IV.  

D. Middleweight Superbike
1. Production based 4 strokes
2. Up to 650cc, 4 cylinder
3. Up to 750cc twin, liquid cooled, 4 valve
4. Twin, less than 4 valve, unlimited displacement
5. Triple up to 900cc
6. Four cylinder, two valve, unlimited displacement
7. See section 2.3 for further requirements

Daytona 675

K. Amateur Super Twins
1. Open to Novice and Expert
2. Any non-four cylinder motorcycle
3. See Section 2.3 for further requirements

CRF450R Supermotard or Daytona 675

L. Amateur Club Sport
1. Open to Novice and Expert
2. Four cylinder, liquid cooled up to 560cc
3. Twin, liquid cooled up to 700cc
4. Four cylinder, air cooled up to 750cc
5. Twin, air-cooled up to 1200cc
6. Single, unlimited displacement
7. Two stroke, air cooled, unlimited displacement
8. Two cylinder, two stroke, liquid cooled, up to 250cc
9. Modern Vintage Bikes (10+year old VIN#)
10. See Section 2.3 for further requirements

CRF450R Supermotard (Note the rules also allow the TZ250, lol.)

M. Amateur GTU
1. Open to Novice and Expert
2. Same as MIDDLEWEIGHT SUPERBIKE
3. May be non-production based
4. See Section 2.3 for further requirements

Daytona 675

N. Amateur GTO
1. Open to Novice and Expert
2. Same as OPEN SUPERBIKE
3. May be non-production based
4. See Section 2.3 for further requirements

CRF450R Supermotard or Daytona 675

[Busashot]

Well because the club is overall small we combine a lot of different class bikes into one class. Yea you will find a ton more vids under SMRI on Youtube.

As far as Sandia Motor Speedway, SMRI club is the most lucrative of all club sports there.....

[Kirk]

Yeah, I watched a bunch of videos of SMRI racing.  It looks like a fun club to race with.   

I didn't link any videos here, because the cameras were either blurry, or shaking, or pointed in the dirt, or whatever.  Just video issues, not having anything to do with the racing.  I liked the 'tard gridded in the front row of the Super Street races (the guy in the white and black leathers with the aero back hump), racing against all the four cylinder bikes and doing well. 

Thanks for sharing. 

[SEJ]

Some interesting numbers here... Keep in mind that these bikes are bone stock with factory gearing. The 60-80 mph numbers are telling of the bottom end power with the stock gearing, and the 80-100 mph more indicative of mid range. Enjoy!

http://www.sportrider.com/performance_numbers/146_motorcycle_performance_numbers/viewall.html

[Kirk]

Those are top gear roll-on numbers.  6th gear in a Hayabusa is going to be MUCH taller than 6th gear in a smaller bike. 

Apples to oranges. 

[Kirk]

6th gear in a Gixxer 1000 is 5.263:1 overall.

The closest to that in the Hayabusa is 3rd gear.

http://www.aperaceparts.com/tech/specshayabusa.html

http://aperaceparts.com/tech/2010%20Suzuki%20GSXR1000.html