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Author Topic: 200+ hp pump gas Gen II w/ no power adders and only OEM internal engine parts?  (Read 15035 times)

Offline Kirk

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For a daily commuter, with occasional drag strip and/or Texas Mile type action:

What kind of horsepower gain is possible on a piped but otherwise stock pump gas Gen II, with all short Gixxer 1000 stacks, two properly degreed intake cams, and some additional compression (via milling or angle milling the head and/or pulling the base gasket)?

How much additional compression is even possible via these methods?  How much additional compression will be tolerated on pump gas on the quarter mile?  How much additional compression will be tolerated on pump gas for the Texas Mile?  What is the optimum compression ratio for two intake cams?  Where should they be degreed at?



-Kirk

Offline Texanzone

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 :bike:

Offline blk02ws6

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if your going to take the head off to be milled, why not have it ported also?

Offline sportbikeryder

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if your going to take the head off to be milled, why not have it ported also?

 :tu:

If you want 200 hp, you're going to have to do some mods to make the torque move up.

Where are you located Kirk? West Coast I assume since you associate yourself with the likes of "Cookie". Reason I ask is there is a nice GEN2 for sale in Florida with lots of little tweaks.
Any day on a motorcycle like this that ends just needing parts and labor is a good day.
4.82, 158.67mph 1/8th mile 7.350, 200.32mph 1/4 mile Riding

4.392, 176.79mph 1/8th mile  6.610, 228.15mph 1/4 mile Tuning

Offline Kirk

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if your going to take the head off to be milled, why not have it ported also?

'cause I don't generally trust anyone to do anything for me- I generally do all of my own stuff, and porting a Hayabusa cylinder head is beyond the scope of what I'm willing to do for a project like this.

That said, I appreciate the input, and I'm listening...  :wink:
-Kirk

Offline clearblue

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Kirk : you could put a set of 425/425 cams in it   :wink:

Offline Kirk

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Kirk : you could put a set of 425/425 cams in it   :wink:
   :hys:


Thanks.  I'll keep that in mind.   :wink:
-Kirk

Offline YSI408

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Dont no what exhaust you have but mr-12 fuel brock pipe will get you in the 190 range..

Offline Kirk

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Dont no what exhaust you have but mr-12 fuel brock pipe will get you in the 190 range..

Then an additional intake cam, all shorts, no balancer, and pulling the base gasket should get me over 200. 
-Kirk

Offline glenn71

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those gixxer stacks kill the torque for the sake of a bit better top end,try just 2 on the outside maybe.Whenever you skew a setup to acheive a magical peak number,often the bikes torque curve is highly compromised to acheive it.Midnight black got 200hp with a ported head and redialled cams on a gen2 motor.Average hp in the rpm range your most likely to use will acheive the best result.Id sooner ride a 190hp motor with a great spread of torque,than a 200hp motor with no nuts under 5500-6000.The 200hp motor will give a bigger adrenaline rush as it comes on cam,but if you did a rollon from 3000,youll be stairing at a tailight.
Gen1 the original and the best
8.76@165.42mph so far

Offline Kirk

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I understand.  Having owned a Gen I Hayabusa, and then spending the last few years riding a black hole of torque (short stroke 5-valve R1) on the street, track, and drag strip, I feel I have some context here.  I'm not a street racer, and I suspect that there would still be enough low-rpm power to function in a satisfactory manner on the street, and yet have enough top end to put in a favorable performance at the occasional drag race, and to eventually try the Texas Mile.  No hard and fast decisions have been made, just kicking it around at this point.  Thanks for the input.  :)
-Kirk

Offline .D.

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Offline midnight black man

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as glenn stated,torque is your main friend...don't go with the short stacks...it'll make a very nice hole near 8thou...

200 is easier now with ecu editor since you can tune everything,especially ignition down low...

http://www.suzukihayabusa.org/forum/index.php?topic=135228.msg1278514#msg1278514
frankly my dear,i don't give a damn...

Offline Kirk

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Well, you guys certainly seem to know your stuff.  I did spend a butt-load of on my R1 ($2,000 titanium exhaust- to eliminate the OEM exhaust flapper valve, Power Commander, and mapping), to repair about a 20 horsepower hole in the powerband at about that same point (centered at about 7,500 rpm).

Maybe keep the stock stacks then.  How are you guys cutting the airbox? Is the Gen II airbox like the Gen I airbox inside?

I've done simple stuff like port matching, thinning down valve guides, removing air injection bumps, blending to remove the "step" at the valve seat, and polishing on piston engines, but any substantial deviations from the original port design would probably be beyond me.

I do have some reasonably successful (as defined by the 66 foot dyno at the end of the drag strip) experience with huge changes to the port design of rotary engines. I learned at a race car fabrication facility that had an engine dyno.  It was all done by setting the main port timing with a known template, drilling the auxilliary "bridge port" with a template, and then porting everything by hand, using my eye, a strong light, and only basic measuring.  No flow bench.  Mine worked about as well as anyone else's porting, but we're talking about two different animals here, and I don't want to screw it up.     



 
-Kirk

Offline 09GraySilverBusa

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The GenII airbox doesn't need cutting up. Throw a BMC Race air filter in and thats it.  I concure on the use of Short Stacks,  I only use them on my GENII for LSR and have a seperate ECU map tuned for it(at the track).
Brock's CT Exhaust, BMC Race Air Filter, ECU Editor, Custom Seat, Marchesini Rims w/Michelin Power Pures
TEXAS MILE (all stock motor)-March 2010, 195.4 MPH Pump Gas | Oct 2010, 197.2 | March 2011 197.3 | Oct 2011 196.4 | March 2012 197.8 | Oct 2012 206.1
LORING (stock motor) - July 2012 1-mile 205.48 & 1.5-mile 212.27

Offline Kirk

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Understood.  Thanks.  :tu:
-Kirk

Offline glenn71

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i use the gixxer stacks on my stock length
1507  to kill the torque to make it easier to ride
and it helps hold the torque over 10k a bit better.
even with a 1507 at 670lbs its only just got
enough torque with those stacks.
Gen1 the original and the best
8.76@165.42mph so far

Offline Kirk

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10-4.  The context here would be a 1340 with two intake cams and a CR in the general range of 13:1, at a total weight of about 725 pounds.  Most of the time, it would be RAISED 1.5" and wheelbase shortened to about 57.9".
-Kirk

Offline Kirk

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Where would I set two intake cams at?
-Kirk

Offline 09GraySilverBusa

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Why Intakes? You will do better with 2 Exhaust cams. *(statement revised below)
« Last Edit: December 07, 2011, 01:06:39 PM by 09GraySilverBusa »
Brock's CT Exhaust, BMC Race Air Filter, ECU Editor, Custom Seat, Marchesini Rims w/Michelin Power Pures
TEXAS MILE (all stock motor)-March 2010, 195.4 MPH Pump Gas | Oct 2010, 197.2 | March 2011 197.3 | Oct 2011 196.4 | March 2012 197.8 | Oct 2012 206.1
LORING (stock motor) - July 2012 1-mile 205.48 & 1.5-mile 212.27

Offline Kirk

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APE's tech page for the Gen II lists the inny as 281 degrees by .354" lift, and the outty as 266 degrees by .339" lift.

The Gen I inny is listed as 276 degrees by .347" lift and the outty as 259 degrees by .295" lift.   

I'm gonna assume (and I think I'm right about this), that the duration numbers are the total "advertised" numbers, with the actual duration at .050" proportionally less.

Sounded to me, that two Gen II intakes would work best.  But I'm listening.
« Last Edit: December 06, 2011, 05:26:09 PM by Kirk »
-Kirk

Offline glenn71

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just dial them up a bit higher like 106/108,wind the comp up,tidy up the head and ride the wheels off it.
Gen1 the original and the best
8.76@165.42mph so far

Offline midnight black man

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don't need to go extreme on the head...it's like throwing dice if you haven't done it before...5 ponies+ or - won't do much difference for the risk taken...do a good clean up and a blending,buy a couple of cam gears,and studs from jay ,a thin head gasket (would get you to true 12.5),stock cams dialed the way glenn said,tune it and be done with it...
frankly my dear,i don't give a damn...

Offline Kirk

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10-4.  I understand that the CR numbers that Suzuki claims are "optimistic".
-Kirk

Offline 09GraySilverBusa

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APE's tech page for the Gen II lists the inny as 281 degrees by .354" lift, and the outty as 266 degrees by .339" lift.

The Gen I inny is listed as 276 degrees by .347" lift and the outty as 259 degrees by .295" lift.   

I'm gonna assume (and I think I'm right about this), that the duration numbers are the total "advertised" numbers, with the actual duration at .050" proportionally less.

Sounded to me, that two Gen II intakes would work best.  But I'm listening.
Pretty sure I'd read in a couple places where the spec's for the exhaust were better then the intake but after a bit of Googling I find that I'm mistaken. You are correct and I had it backwards  :duh:
Brock's CT Exhaust, BMC Race Air Filter, ECU Editor, Custom Seat, Marchesini Rims w/Michelin Power Pures
TEXAS MILE (all stock motor)-March 2010, 195.4 MPH Pump Gas | Oct 2010, 197.2 | March 2011 197.3 | Oct 2011 196.4 | March 2012 197.8 | Oct 2012 206.1
LORING (stock motor) - July 2012 1-mile 205.48 & 1.5-mile 212.27

Offline Kirk

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No problem.  We all make mistakes, and I really do appreciate your input.

So you think two Gen II intakes would round out a nice mild combination like this?

BTW, how much additional compression can I get by pulling the base gasket too?  How much can you mill (or angle-mill) the head, and what will that get me? Obviously I'd like to avoid all the normal caveats (less than zero deck height, less than .040" squish, piston-to-valve conflicts, etc.).  And how much will pump gas tolerate?  I'm just spit-balling here, but I'm thinking that even with stock cams, a true 13:1 (if possible) is not out of line, and with the additional duration of the second intake cam, even more so.  What do you think?

« Last Edit: December 07, 2011, 12:27:33 PM by Kirk »
-Kirk

Offline midnight black man

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No problem.  We all make mistakes, and I really do appreciate your input.

So you think two Gen II intakes would round out a nice mild combination like this?

BTW, how much additional compression can I get by pulling the base gasket too?  How much can you mill (or angle-mill) the head, and what will that get me? Obviously I'd like to avoid all the normal caveats (less than zero deck height, less than .040" squish, piston-to-valve conflicts, etc.).  And how much will pump gas tolerate?  I'm just spit-balling here, but I'm thinking that even with stock cams, a true 13:1 (if possible) is not out of line, and with the additional duration of the second intake cam, even more so.  What do you think?



mainly it has to do with your future intention for the engine...if you're gonna put piston,overbore it etc,milling the head is not the best thing to cope with...

so...taking out the base,will add approximately 0,2 so with the thin head gasket will take you at the ballpark of 12.7-12.8...i wouldn't do it if i were you...12.5 if more than fine...also keep the exhaust cam in...no need for the extra cost...apart from that .its something you can do any time in the future if you want something extra and you can do it with the motor on the frame...

anyway...your stuff,your decision... :thumb:
frankly my dear,i don't give a damn...

Offline glenn71

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yeh dialling the exhaust cam in,in the frame
is not what i call a fun night out in the shed.
Gen1 the original and the best
8.76@165.42mph so far

Offline Kirk

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I'm not bashful.  With my background, I have no aversion to dropping the engine.

As far as my future plans, as much as I'd like to go hog wild, the reality of it is that this is probably about as far as it'll ever go.

-Kirk

Offline midnight black man

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yeh dialling the exhaust cam in,in the frame
is not what i call a fun night out in the shed.

 :hys: :hys: :hys:

cmon'mate...don't scare people off...it's not that bad...once the cap is off i need about half an hour to dial it...

then kirk take another 0.3 mm out of the head and your 13 will be a reality...
frankly my dear,i don't give a damn...

Offline glenn71

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yep gen1 10.69:1 measured and gen 2 12.2:1 from memory.
Gen1 the original and the best
8.76@165.42mph so far

Offline Kirk

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...take another 0.3 mm out of the head and your 13 will be a reality...

.3mm is about .012".  Is that with the OEM head gasket but no base gasket?
-Kirk

Offline midnight black man

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no base gasket+0.46mm head gasket...
frankly my dear,i don't give a damn...

Offline Kirk

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Sorry, which head gasket is that?  And that's a true 13:1, right? 

Any concerns with the stock starting system?
-Kirk

Offline midnight black man

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its the thin cometic...stock is 0.76mm

13sh...can never be exact...no two motors are ever exactly the same...

no problems at all with starting system...
frankly my dear,i don't give a damn...

Offline Kirk

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Appreciate you sharing your knowledge.

So how much compression with an OEM head gasket, no base gasket, and shave the head .012" (.3mm)?

I'm assuming that it would be enough compression to support the second intake cam? (trying not to go in circles with this).  :wink:
-Kirk

Offline midnight black man

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haha...but you are...told you before,even with 12.5 you're ok with those baby cams...

0.3mm off is about 0.3 up in cr...grossely ofcourse...

if i were you though i'd put a set of 13.5 wossners or whichever brand you prefer,keep the stock gasket which is by far the most reliable and be done with it...no shaving and all stock gaskets in...troublefree... :bike:
frankly my dear,i don't give a damn...

Offline Kirk

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Thanks.

Pump (R+M)/2 91 octane unleaded premium gas, right?
-Kirk

Offline midnight black man

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yeap...91 pump is fine...
frankly my dear,i don't give a damn...

Offline glenn71

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if your worried about remove and refitting the
pistons into the block,dont be,with the gen2 block with the window
cutouts you can fit the pistons in the block first,on the bench
and then fit the gudgeons to the middle 2 rods on the cases
then the outer 2,far easier.
Gen1 the original and the best
8.76@165.42mph so far

Offline midnight black man

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i prefer slaves holding the block in place...wife-girlfriend-friend... :P
frankly my dear,i don't give a damn...

Offline glenn71

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lol.
Gen1 the original and the best
8.76@165.42mph so far

Offline dodobird

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mill head .20  385 intake timed 108/110 so you mke power all the way to the limiter for the top in runs 200hp all day ong thru stock exhaust
MY MAMA TOLD ME I WAS SLOW!!!!