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Author Topic: Opinions Needed/ 200RWHP Gen I  (Read 24155 times)

Offline MREDDIEB

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Opinions Needed/ 200RWHP Gen I
« on: November 25, 2011, 08:02:19 PM »
I have a 2003 stock motor with full muzzy exhaust, PC III, K&N air filter, boosbysmith gear indicator.  I was thinking of sending it out to get one of the 200 hp packages ( ported head, cams & remaping). I may have missed one of the details in the listed package. Here is my question, will the difference in feel of power be enough to notice from stock? I don't do any track time, just street riding. Is it worth it?

Looking for all opinions, good and bad. Thanks.
\"Do you know why I pulled you over?\" Md State Trooper

Even the best bike is only as good as it's operator.
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Offline jnegron

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Re: Opinions Needed/ 200RWHP Gen I
« Reply #1 on: November 26, 2011, 12:43:33 PM »
You're probably making 150-160hp now...with all the Gen II's and 14's  putting out 180-195 with just a  pipe and a tune...I would do it....well I did it....no regrets....keep it as a sleeper.....oh yeah it makes a difference if you reach 200 real hp. Got to get you a real good battery or go for the two batteries mod and add another fan.....

Offline Kirk

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Re: Opinions Needed/ 200RWHP Gen I
« Reply #2 on: November 26, 2011, 02:32:58 PM »
There is a point of diminishing returns in everything.

As pointed out above, a good-running stock Gen I is probably 150-155 horsepower, and a piped one like yours is probably 160-165 horsepower.

If it was me, that point would probably be removing the base gasket for a little additional compression, a stock OEM intake cam on the exhaust side (because the stock exhaust cam is proportionally much smaller than that of the Gen II bikes), degreeing the cams with a pair of adjustable cam sprockets for peak power, all short stacks, and removing the engine counter-balancer.

I would use ECU Editor to re-flash the ECU to raise the 6th gear rev limiter to the same as gears 1 through 5 (11,000 rpm I think?), effectively removing the top speed limiter, and to enable full ignition advance in the lower gears.

With the addition of EITHER a 39 tooth rear sprocket OR a 190/55 rear tire (I prefer the latter), you'd be a little shy of 200 horsepower, but the bike would be just barely capable of cracking the 200 mph barrier (the s. Florida 9/10 guys have been doing it for years on Gen I bikes with as little as 175 horsepower), in nearly stock condition (with no aftermarket parts other than the adjustable cam sprockets), on pump 87 octane unleaded.  If your size and ability to assume a good body tuck causes you to fall short of 200 mph, a few little tricks like ceramic wheel bearings, low-viscocity full-synthetic motor oil, and/or oxygenated low-octane race gas like VP MR9 or MR12 might be needed.

It would probably get you most of the benefits of the "200 hp" package, for a fraction of the cost, but that's just me.
« Last Edit: November 27, 2011, 04:52:46 AM by Kirk »
-Kirk

Offline Cookie

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Re: Opinions Needed/ 200RWHP Gen I
« Reply #3 on: November 26, 2011, 02:55:16 PM »
I have a 2003 stock motor with full muzzy exhaust, PC III, K&N air filter, boosbysmith gear indicator.  I was thinking of sending it out to get one of the 200 hp packages ( ported head, cams & remaping). I may have missed one of the details in the listed package. Here is my question, will the difference in feel of power be enough to notice from stock? I don't do any track time, just street riding. Is it worth it?

Looking for all opinions, good and bad. Thanks.

Are you looking to stay with N/A and not go turbo? Is that you main priority, Eddie? And "sending it out" Are you willing to go into the bottom or are you trying to stay out and get there without addressing the possible Gen II 2mm over crankshaft. Without "going in", you will be stretching to achieve the 200whp marque with even a 1397cc scenario. There are ways of getting there with that bigger bore build, cams and head-work, large air-box mod, but without it, but not so easily.
-Chris

גַּבְרִיאֵל guide me to the light ישוע המשיח

Offline speedduck

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Re: Opinions Needed/ 200RWHP Gen I
« Reply #4 on: November 26, 2011, 03:59:31 PM »
Just built gen1 engine for a friend, with budget in mind. 84mm pistons, base gasket off, intake cam for exhaust, biggest cam for intake that fits without head work, no porting to head at all, counter-balancer removed and short stacks. It gave 194,4rwhp, 40hp more than before when he had only yoshi RS-3 installed.

Offline MREDDIEB

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Re: Opinions Needed/ 200RWHP Gen I
« Reply #5 on: November 26, 2011, 04:33:12 PM »
Thanks for the input.

Cookie, I was looking at the engine packages offered by RC's Performance & Carpenter Racing. It is more of a money thing & reliability. Turbo set up is pricey. I don't have the skill or tools to do it myself. I figured 200 hp would keep my old girl running with the new stuff.

« Last Edit: November 26, 2011, 04:41:26 PM by MREDDIEB »
\"Do you know why I pulled you over?\" Md State Trooper

Even the best bike is only as good as it's operator.
"You can explain it to the judge." Va State Trooper

Offline MREDDIEB

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Re: Opinions Needed/ 200RWHP Gen I
« Reply #6 on: November 26, 2011, 04:44:29 PM »
What size is the stock pistons?

Found it, 81mm

That means 84mm makes it a 1397cc motor right?
« Last Edit: November 26, 2011, 04:48:35 PM by MREDDIEB »
\"Do you know why I pulled you over?\" Md State Trooper

Even the best bike is only as good as it's operator.
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Offline Kirk

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Re: Opinions Needed/ 200RWHP Gen I
« Reply #7 on: November 26, 2011, 05:18:05 PM »
Just built gen1 engine for a friend, with budget in mind. 84mm pistons, base gasket off, intake cam for exhaust, biggest cam for intake that fits without head work, no porting to head at all, counter-balancer removed and short stacks. It gave 194,4rwhp, 40hp more than before when he had only yoshi RS-3 installed.

Pretty much what I outlined, except for the 3mm over pistons.  And it's just me, but IF it's even needed, I'd rather pick up that last few mph with ceramic wheel bearings, low-viscocity oil, and possibly better gas, rather than to have to tear the engine down to do machine work and re-plating.
-Kirk

Offline MREDDIEB

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Re: Opinions Needed/ 200RWHP Gen I
« Reply #8 on: November 26, 2011, 05:23:25 PM »
You guys make it sound easy  :D

If I took a cam out, I'd never get it back in.
\"Do you know why I pulled you over?\" Md State Trooper

Even the best bike is only as good as it's operator.
"You can explain it to the judge." Va State Trooper

Offline Kirk

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Re: Opinions Needed/ 200RWHP Gen I
« Reply #9 on: November 26, 2011, 05:26:26 PM »
And yes, 84x63 = 1397.  Bore squared, times one-quarter of pi, times the stroke, times the number of cylinders (four in this case).  

Problem is, when you start hogging out the engine and making significant increases in compression, you can get into cooling problems, starting problems (requiring the additional cost, weight, and complexity of a dual-battery starting system), octane starts to become more of an issue, and you generally have to upgrade everything else to match if you want to get optimum benefits from it- bigger cams, stiffer springs (which cause more mechanical losses and don't last as long), retainers, shorter valve guides to clear the higher cam lift, porting to match the increased displacement, larger exhaust system... - you're basically re-engineering the whole engine.
-Kirk

Offline Kirk

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Re: Opinions Needed/ 200RWHP Gen I
« Reply #10 on: November 26, 2011, 05:28:22 PM »
You guys make it sound easy  :D

If I took a cam out, I'd never get it back in.

It's not rocket surgery.

But a dry 40 shot of dope would get you 200 horsepower from a stock  Gen I engine too.  :tu:
« Last Edit: November 26, 2011, 06:32:15 PM by Kirk »
-Kirk

Offline clearblue

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Re: Opinions Needed/ 200RWHP Gen I
« Reply #11 on: November 26, 2011, 06:15:19 PM »
Here's my 2ct , I would do the bottom first .  I had Bob C do the port and Big 425/425 cams on my bike and it made like 186hp but it sucked the life out of the bottom end , So I went back and had it made into a 1397 . I got all the bottom back and then some :) Bike made 210+ on pump gas and 6 inch over at a different shop that is good on true dyno numbers  3 years later and a whole bunch of street and track ridieing  I just cracked a head :( So I had it refreshed By Steve K and a new head from Bob , Just finished the break in and it feels alot stronger then before . I will get her on the dyno soon to see how much hp it's makeing now and a new race gas map with numbers for that too

Offline Kirk

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Re: Opinions Needed/ 200RWHP Gen I
« Reply #12 on: November 26, 2011, 06:24:14 PM »
I had Bob C do the port and Big 425/425 cams on my bike and it made like 186hp but it sucked the life out of the bottom end , So I went back and had it made into a 1397 . I got all the bottom back and then some :) Bike made 210+ on pump gas and 6 inch over at a different shop that is good on true dyno numbers  3 years later and a whole bunch of street and track ridieing  I just cracked a head :( So I had it refreshed By Steve K and a new head from Bob , Just finished the break in and it feels alot stronger then before . I will get her on the dyno soon to see how much hp it's makeing now and a new race gas map with numbers for that too

Are you trying to talk him INTO engine work, or OUT of engine work?

Let me see if I got this right (I may have lost count):  To get 186-210 horsepower, you've been into the engine three times in three years, including paying for two Carpenter cylinder heads?  That sounds like about as much fun as intestinal flu. :roll:

How many "track" miles did you get out of all that (between engine failures, of course)?
« Last Edit: November 26, 2011, 06:34:37 PM by Kirk »
-Kirk

Offline clearblue

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Re: Opinions Needed/ 200RWHP Gen I
« Reply #13 on: November 26, 2011, 09:12:53 PM »
So lets' get this  in order : went with just head work first thinking I would get that 200hp number and did not got 186 and Lost the bottom end power it all went into the top of the power band ,Keep it that way for a month    Then I went back as I was told by many racers that I should have done the Bottom end first Pistons/Bore    had it made into a 1397 with the port and cams that were allready in it makes 210+     The crack in the head was just an unforeseen event after 3 years of use . As far as track time maybe 80 passes or so and allot of street 185mph runs .  So If I was not clear:  The Port and cams did not work for me and made my ride into a top end bike with very little street usefullness Running mid 9's        So after all the motor work combined it will run 8's and is Very fun on the street as I use it all the time to go to work

Offline Kirk

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Re: Opinions Needed/ 200RWHP Gen I
« Reply #14 on: November 26, 2011, 11:32:23 PM »
...maybe 80 passes...

That's 20 miles, or almost 7 miles between engine jobs.  

Just gassing you, man. I think you spent a bunch of time and money reducing the reliability of your bike.  A stocker will go 185 mph, and if you only need that 200 horsepower for 20 miles, a couple hundred dollars will get you a dry shot of dope.  That leaves you with a stock engine that will start on one battery and run great on pump 87 unleaded for the next 100,000 miles without overheating.
« Last Edit: November 27, 2011, 01:13:10 AM by Kirk »
-Kirk

Offline Kirk

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Re: Opinions Needed/ 200RWHP Gen I
« Reply #15 on: November 27, 2011, 12:23:00 AM »
I'm still trying to figure out what you were trying to accomplish by pissing away what little cylinder pressure a low-compression stocker had, by installing a couple of giant cams like that.  I mean, how many times does it say on Web's web site that those cams need more compression to work?  That thing must have been miserable to ride.  :lol:
« Last Edit: November 27, 2011, 01:11:13 AM by Kirk »
-Kirk

Offline glenn71

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Re: Opinions Needed/ 200RWHP Gen I
« Reply #16 on: November 27, 2011, 02:56:37 AM »
gen2 crank,brock stock bore 12.3:1 pistons,ported head,gen2 cams,easy peasy.shave the head 10thou,set the squish around 40thou
cams around 106/108.balance the crank,pull the counterbalancer.that,ll give you basically a gen2 with a ported head and approx 13;1 true compression,maybe some gen2 valves as well will give another 0.4 comp.That,ll get you into the mid 190,s hp on a very low stress street motor.if you want more torque add a 84mm bore.the setup i described should net around 110-112ft/lbs mid 190,s hp.i did a 1340 with 13.8:1 comp with 395/278 webbs that made 208-210hp 116ft/lbs on m109 vp oxy unleaded fuel with mixed gen1 stacks,106/106 dial in.It actually mphd showing 212hp at the strip.
Gen1 the original and the best
8.76@165.42mph so far

Offline Kirk

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Re: Opinions Needed/ 200RWHP Gen I
« Reply #17 on: November 27, 2011, 04:31:55 AM »
...and I'm not going to pick on Glenn, because he is obviously an expert at this, and I'm not.  Glenn will be the first to admit that a complete ground-up engine build like this is way beyond the depth of anything that we've talked about so far.  That said, Glenn's well-balanced engine build(s) may actually cost less, live longer, and make more power than the hack approach of randomly throwing a Carpenter cylinder head (or two) and a pair of giant cams on a low-compression stock engine.  

To me, the cost of buying a Gen II crank, a set of 84mm pistons, a pair of cams, a set of 16 titanium Gen II valves, valve springs, retainers, and a pair of adjustable cam sprockets, PLUS the expense of boring and re-plating the cylinder block, balancing the crankshaft, head milling, porting, and valve guide machining, PLUS what it costs in terms of parts, labor, and fluids for a complete high-performance engine overhaul, demonstrates the appeal of simply slapping on a $3,000 Stage I turbo at 6psi, and instantly making 240 horsepower on pump gas without even lifting the valve cover.  And Glenn's 13.8:1 race-gas stroker motor would probably need dual batteries to start- the turbo motor would start fine on one.
« Last Edit: November 27, 2011, 04:48:55 AM by Kirk »
-Kirk

Offline glenn71

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Re: Opinions Needed/ 200RWHP Gen I
« Reply #18 on: November 27, 2011, 04:51:25 AM »
no argument a turbo will be better hp/dollar value.
i agree though a head cam package is a waste
of money without a good increase in compression,they become
soggier than a wet sock under 6000rpm without
compression.i saw a mates bike.a gen1 with gen2
crank,ported head,redialled gen1 cams. 180hp/106ft/lbs
with torque everywhere.comparably it made 157-160hp
98ft/lbs ,before the build.work out how much you honestly
want,then people can tell you how much it will honestly
cost,as owners who,ve paid themselves.just remember though,
choose carefully because unless its over 200hp, you will
get used to it,and the rush will subside.on that basis
turbos and nos can recharge the adrenalin gland
like no other,if thats the objective,good luck.
Gen1 the original and the best
8.76@165.42mph so far

Offline Kirk

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Re: Opinions Needed/ 200RWHP Gen I
« Reply #19 on: November 27, 2011, 05:01:55 AM »
Glenn, this appears to be his goal:

I figured 200 hp would keep my old girl running with the new stuff.

Several reputable sh.org engine guys have claimed 200 horsepower with the addition of an OEM intake cam on the exhaust side, along with a few other odds and ends (all shorts, full box mod, etc.).  I'm not going to claim quite that, but I think he can come close enough to put him on an even basis with the new bike, which is all he's really looking for.  Given his limited goals, I don't think I could justify going much further.
-Kirk

Offline MREDDIEB

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Re: Opinions Needed/ 200RWHP Gen I
« Reply #20 on: November 27, 2011, 06:22:40 AM »
Thanks guys, I learning something here.

Where can I find a stage one turbo setup for 3 grand. Just to think about.

I saw the RCC turbo for almost 5 grand, then it has to be installed. (another 2 grand)

One guy I spoke to suggested that I get a used turbo. Not really my thing since I don't know anything about them. I could be had.
\"Do you know why I pulled you over?\" Md State Trooper

Even the best bike is only as good as it's operator.
"You can explain it to the judge." Va State Trooper

Offline MREDDIEB

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Re: Opinions Needed/ 200RWHP Gen I
« Reply #21 on: November 27, 2011, 06:26:31 AM »
http://www.rcsperformanceonline.com/Hayabusa_Stock_Bore_Engine_Packages_s/60.htm

this is what I was considering. Drop off, pick up.

Will I lose the bottom end grunt? The torque should still be there right?
\"Do you know why I pulled you over?\" Md State Trooper

Even the best bike is only as good as it's operator.
"You can explain it to the judge." Va State Trooper

Offline clearblue

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Re: Opinions Needed/ 200RWHP Gen I
« Reply #22 on: November 27, 2011, 06:28:37 AM »
I'm still trying to figure out what you were trying to accomplish by pissing away what little cylinder pressure a low-compression stocker had, by installing a couple of giant cams like that.  I mean, how many times does it say on Web's web site that those cams need more compression to work?  That thing must have been miserable to ride.  :lol:

Yea it was , But at the time money was the thing and I just went with the head package ,for the most part they don't work with out the bottom end done    The bike now has 13:1 and not just 20miles on it ,I got 15,000 before she cracked and most likely would have gotten way more as the internals on the bike were in good shape ,  And yes Nos would have been cheeper but as we all know you can't stay off the bottle and BLAM! is allways the likely end to that motor LOL

Offline Kirk

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Re: Opinions Needed/ 200RWHP Gen I
« Reply #23 on: November 27, 2011, 06:41:14 AM »
Thanks guys, I learning something here.

Where can I find a stage one turbo setup for 3 grand. Just to think about.

I saw the RCC turbo for almost 5 grand, then it has to be installed. (another 2 grand)

One guy I spoke to suggested that I get a used turbo. Not really my thing since I don't know anything about them. I could be had.

$3195, brand new:

http://www.shop.stedmanmotorsports.com/Suzuki-Hayabusa-Stage-1-Turbo-Systems-99-07-SRP13s19-7.htm

Installing a Stage I turbo kit (without a spacer plate) would be no more mechanically challenging than installing your Muzzy pipe was and certainly not a $2,000 job.

Plus, you can sell off your used Muzzy pipe afterwards.  
« Last Edit: November 27, 2011, 07:05:14 AM by Kirk »
-Kirk

Offline Kirk

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Re: Opinions Needed/ 200RWHP Gen I
« Reply #24 on: November 27, 2011, 06:49:16 AM »
http://www.rcsperformanceonline.com/Hayabusa_Stock_Bore_Engine_Packages_s/60.htm

this is what I was considering. Drop off, pick up.

Will I lose the bottom end grunt? The torque should still be there right?

You will not lose your bottom end grunt if you match your new cams with additional compression via removing the baseplate gasket and/or milling the head.  If you try to run the larger cams, you're going to need even more compression, via new high-compression pistons. 

My point was, you can get most of these gains for a fraction of the money, without a bunch of aftermarket parts and machining / porting. 
-Kirk