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Author Topic: I Need the Breakdown on Brakes  (Read 22881 times)

Offline FastBikes4Life

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I Need the Breakdown on Brakes
« on: December 30, 2011, 08:32:30 PM »
It's time for me to turn my attention from going faster to slowing down. I have a 1441 (Gen I) so getting away isn't the problem. The problem is coming into corners hot and trying to slow all that bike down. I know I need steel braided brake lines - in fact, that's the first braking upgrade I plan to do. What else do I need? I need you guys to fill in the blanks for me. And let me know what manufacturers you're using so I know where to buy my stuff. Thanks.

FAST
Holy Crap, I have to sell this ZX-12R!!

Offline Busashot

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Re: I Need the Breakdown on Brakes
« Reply #1 on: December 31, 2011, 02:05:48 PM »
HH Sintered Brake Pads. I like Galfer and SBS.
Braided Lines
Brembo Master Cylinder

For most average riders this is all that is needed. I could spill out more but just depends on how good you really are handling the Busa.

I have to assume that when you say that you go hot into the corners that your bike is at stock length and height. So I would tend to the suspension as well. This can help on comfortable braking as well......
« Last Edit: December 31, 2011, 02:10:58 PM by Busashot »

Offline FastBikes4Life

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Re: I Need the Breakdown on Brakes
« Reply #2 on: January 03, 2012, 03:26:30 AM »
"I have to assume that when you say that you go hot into the corners that your bike is at stock length and height. So I would tend to the suspension as well. This can help on comfortable braking as well......"

You are correct on the length and the height. And I'm only an average bike rider. I go to the road course a couple times a summer but I'm no Nicky Hayden. Are the stock components okay or do I need to look into replacing the rear shock or doing major surgery on the forks? Thanks.

Fast
Holy Crap, I have to sell this ZX-12R!!

Offline busa200

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Re: I Need the Breakdown on Brakes
« Reply #3 on: January 03, 2012, 11:14:01 AM »
Galfer rotors and caliper mods by Tommy Micelli
259.85 m.p.h. at Maxton, built and tuned by DaveO

Offline FastBikes4Life

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Re: I Need the Breakdown on Brakes
« Reply #4 on: January 04, 2012, 04:30:32 PM »
Tommy Micelli? Help me out - who is he? Thanks.

Fast
Holy Crap, I have to sell this ZX-12R!!

Offline dadofthree

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Re: I Need the Breakdown on Brakes
« Reply #5 on: January 04, 2012, 05:01:45 PM »
Reading your comments, set the suspension up for your weight. Go have a blast at the track, maybe let a suspension expert get a hold of it between sets to fine tune it. Most of us can't exceed what zuki gives us.

Offline dadofthree

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Re: I Need the Breakdown on Brakes
« Reply #6 on: January 04, 2012, 05:07:37 PM »
When you wear the factory pads out try these :

 EBC Brakes | EBC Extreme Pro? Performance and Race Brakes | Performance Video & Results Graphs


Offline busa200

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Re: I Need the Breakdown on Brakes
« Reply #7 on: January 05, 2012, 07:16:15 AM »
Tommy Micelli? Help me out - who is he? Thanks.

FastHe's one of the best kept secrets out there. He will take your calipers and modify them so that the pads do not ride against the rotors. Still one pull to the lever. DaveO turned me on to him and it's a great mod. No more getting out the screw driver to pry the pads off of the rotors.
259.85 m.p.h. at Maxton, built and tuned by DaveO

Offline FastBikes4Life

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Re: I Need the Breakdown on Brakes
« Reply #8 on: January 06, 2012, 12:01:19 AM »
Thanks Busa200. I will look him up. If you have contact information it would be greatly appreciated. How much does he charge to work ont he calipers? Thanks.

FAST
Holy Crap, I have to sell this ZX-12R!!

Offline Kirk

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Re: I Need the Breakdown on Brakes
« Reply #9 on: January 06, 2012, 08:28:27 PM »
HOLY CRAP!

Someone asks a basic question on my day off, and you guys have got the OP chasing his tail all over the place, including tampering with the calipers to achieve self-retracting (LSR / Drag type) pads on a STREET BIKE!

WTF!

FAST-

You'll need braided stainless steel brake lines for the front- you will not need a rear one.

You will not need aftermarket brake rotors. 

Your stock front brake master cylinder will probably work just fine. 

The stock rear brake pads and hose need no upgrades.

Do not mess with the brake calipers on a street bike- race tracks have things called "Run Off", "Advanced Life Support Ambulances" (two of them), and "Life Flight Helicopter Landing Pads".  Public streets do not generally have these things.

I should probably refer to you the front brake upgrade tutorial for your bike:

http://www.suzukihayabusa.org/forum/index.php?topic=75357.0

I just updated the brake pad part numbers for you, to include the latest ones.  :wink:
« Last Edit: January 06, 2012, 08:58:24 PM by Kirk »
-Kirk

Offline Kirk

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Re: I Need the Breakdown on Brakes
« Reply #10 on: January 06, 2012, 08:41:01 PM »
The stock shock will be fine for you.  The stock spring on the rear shock may even work (it's not far off, for most folks).

You won't need major fork surgery, but you will need to AT LEAST get the correct fork springs (for your weight) installed, for safety reasons.   

How much do you weigh?

How much does your bike weigh?

What do you use your bike for?

Here is the suspension spring rate tutorial:

http://www.suzukihayabusa.org/forum/index.php?topic=85774.0

I hope that you find this information to be helpful.   :bike:
« Last Edit: January 06, 2012, 08:49:30 PM by Kirk »
-Kirk

Offline busa200

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Re: I Need the Breakdown on Brakes
« Reply #11 on: January 06, 2012, 09:18:50 PM »
Self retracting! I realize you are the know all see all road racing guru but you apparently don't know anything about Tommy's caliper mod. And I have done a lot of track days with this mod and a lot of runs over 250. Never a problem. That is until you got ahold of it. Not a problem though, I will keep the information to myself.
259.85 m.p.h. at Maxton, built and tuned by DaveO

Offline Kirk

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Re: I Need the Breakdown on Brakes
« Reply #12 on: January 06, 2012, 11:15:55 PM »
Well, who knows, maybe I was wrong.  :wink:

Explain to me how this modification improves the performance of his brakes.  :bike:
-Kirk

Offline Kirk

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Re: I Need the Breakdown on Brakes
« Reply #13 on: January 06, 2012, 11:18:19 PM »
Lol, I just re-read my first post in this thread.  Maybe I should be the one to switch to decaf...  :lol:

But I am glad that I got here before you guys blew a couple of grand of HIS money, on three aftermarket brake rotors, a set of aftermarket rear brake pads, an aftermarket rear brake hose, an aftermarket brake master cylinder, and two modified front brake calipers, when he could have gotten better braking performance for the minor expenses involved in front brake pads and hoses.

Heck, I probably saved him enough of his own money (left over by heading off the "shotgun" approach to brake upgrades), for him to be able to get his suspension fixed too.   :tu:
« Last Edit: January 06, 2012, 11:29:40 PM by Kirk »
-Kirk

Offline FastBikes4Life

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Re: I Need the Breakdown on Brakes
« Reply #14 on: January 07, 2012, 01:43:06 AM »
No worries - I was only going to do some kevlar lines and HH sintered pads on the front and go from there. The next step would have been an after market master if I thought there was still more feel or control to be gained. Because I mainly ride street with a few track days a summer I was thinking the lines and the pads would be plenty.

FAST
Holy Crap, I have to sell this ZX-12R!!

Offline Ghost-Geezer

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Re: I Need the Breakdown on Brakes
« Reply #15 on: January 07, 2012, 01:45:13 AM »
EBC HH Pads on my 09 are all I have done and I can stand that bike on its' nose with 3 fingers.........and I ain't kiddin' either. 

My 09 stops better than my 04 Turbusa II and the 04 has stainless braided lines and aftermarket rotors.  EBC HH Pads are cheap and work.


Break 'em in hard and fast.  I ran my bike up to 105 and grabbed a handful of front brake three or 4 times over a 20 mile ride and the pads were fully seated.  Even my son says that my 09 Busa stops better than his 07 SV650 which is 200 lbs lighter.     
« Last Edit: January 07, 2012, 01:49:45 AM by Ghost-Geezer »
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Offline Kirk

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Re: I Need the Breakdown on Brakes
« Reply #16 on: January 07, 2012, 10:47:50 AM »
No worries - I was only going to do some kevlar lines and HH sintered pads on the front and go from there. The next step would have been an after market master if I thought there was still more feel or control to be gained. Because I mainly ride street with a few track days a summer I was thinking the lines and the pads would be plenty.

FAST

I think you're right- that actually sounds like a pretty good course of action, to me.  Pretty affordable too.  :tu: 

I have no experience with the Kevlar front brake hoses.  Which brand of Kevlar brake hoses are you going to use?  If you live somewhere where they salt the roads, it might be good to avoid brake hoses that use aluminum brake hose fittings and/or aluminum banjo bolts.

I used Motul 600F degree DOT 5.1 full synthetic brake fluid, but I'm sure there are other high-heat DOT 5.1 full synthetic brake fluids that will work just as well for you.

Which HH pads are you going to use?  Everybody has a personal preference, but the EBC "kit" race pads gave me that "hand of God" braking experience with absolutely no brake fade.  The aggressive initial bite takes a little getting used to, but by the time you've got the pads bedded in, you'll simply find it to be comforting.

I like the idea of holding off on the aftermarket radial brake master until you've had a chance to make your initial assessment of your new and improved braking performance.  I have fairly powerful hands, so I might get away with a stocker a little bit longer than the average guy, but if you get it all put together and bed in the brake pads and still feel like you need a little more power/feedback/control/leverage ratio or whatever, you can just go back and get the brake master.  I seriously doubt that you'll have to spend that money, that's why I'm recommending holding off.

I disagree with my Brother Dave just a little bit on the bedding process.  I use EBC's prescribed procedure to bed in their HH pads.  It's been a while since I looked it up, but I think they call it the "30/30" or something like that.

I think you'll really like it when you get it put together and go road test it.  You'll be able to hike the rear tire with just your pinkie.  You'll be able to hike the rear tire at 190 mph- repeatedly.  Good brakes are just a really great feeling.

What about your fork springs?  How much do you weigh?  Do you know how much your bike weighs?

The stock fork springs are pretty dangerous, and are only going to become more dangerous when you fix up your front brakes.  The front end will fall like a fainting goat under even moderate braking, and slam off the compression bump stops so hard that it will lock up the front tire.  I don't know why Suzuki put such wimpy springs in such a wonderful motorcycle- if a car pulls out in front of you with stock fork springs, you can low-side the bike in a straight line just trying to get stopped. 
« Last Edit: January 08, 2012, 02:18:02 AM by Kirk »
-Kirk

Offline Busashot

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Re: I Need the Breakdown on Brakes
« Reply #17 on: January 07, 2012, 12:08:26 PM »
A lot of these suggestions depends on his weight IMHO. I still suggested the same thing....Pads and lines.....the master cylinder gives a better confident feeling when braking which can translate into better braking from input alone because no matter what, the rider is who dictates how well the brakes can or cannot work.
« Last Edit: January 07, 2012, 12:11:31 PM by Busashot »

Offline Kirk

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Re: I Need the Breakdown on Brakes
« Reply #18 on: January 07, 2012, 12:40:38 PM »
Yeah, I guess that was a little harsh of me to lump you in with the others.  You and I have a slightly differing opinion on the brake master thing, but the rest of your advise was pretty much spot-on.  I guess I just over-reacted when I saw guys telling him to get aftermarket rotors, and modify his calipers for self-retracting pads (or whatever they want to call it), and the idea that you can "fine tune" the stock suspension (as in adjusting it) to compensate for those ridiculous OEM fork springs.  I've found myself apologizing to a few people over the last few days- do you suppose I owe you one too?  :bike:
-Kirk

Offline Busashot

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Re: I Need the Breakdown on Brakes
« Reply #19 on: January 07, 2012, 09:12:40 PM »
Not at all Kirk. I have always liked your posts on the Busa showing that it is a versatile motorcycle and not just a straight liner.........and of course the old Performance Bikes videos of UK with Frosty showing how well it does in corners too....  :thumb:

Offline Kirk

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Re: I Need the Breakdown on Brakes
« Reply #20 on: January 07, 2012, 11:07:53 PM »
That was Colin Schiller's "Fast Bikes" magazine, with "Shakey" Shane Byrne (who went on to ride MotoGP) and "Frosty" Rob Frost.

Those were some great videos:

"Mach II", which was labeled: "More Deathstyle than Lifestyle." and "We don't just Live and Breathe bikes, we Kill and Eat them too.".  Anybody who hasn't seen the video, needs to watch the pass on the motorway where the Hayabusa goes between the concrete center barrier and the left outside door mirror of a car (that didn't move out of the fast lane quickly enough) with about 3" of clearance on either side of the bike...at an indicated 215 mph.  I promptly went out and bought my Hayabusa after seeing this video.

"Dream Twins", which interestingly enough, was not a lesbian porn film.  After the Aprilia Mille R got stolen half way through the test,  they went up in the mountains to race the other two, and turned both a 996SPS and a Bimota SB8R into rectangles by ass-packing one another right off the edge of a very tall cliff.

The entire "How To Pull Wheelies and Influence People" series:  If you ever wonder where the term "NSFW" came from, this was where NSFW was invented.  And perfected:

Here are the youtube search results for the movie trailers for all three "How to Pull Wheelies and Influence People":

http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=Fast+bikes+magazine+How+to+pull+wheelies+and+infleunce+people&oq=Fast+bikes+magazine+How+to+pull+wheelies+and+infleunce+people&aq=f&aqi=&aql=&gs_sm=e&gs_upl=79228l94202l0l94597l56l56l0l55l0l0l248l248l2-1l1l0

Sorry, I can't embed or link directly to the individual videos, or I'll get banned.   :shock:
« Last Edit: January 08, 2012, 02:22:36 AM by Kirk »
-Kirk

Offline FastBikes4Life

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Re: I Need the Breakdown on Brakes
« Reply #21 on: January 07, 2012, 11:47:24 PM »
"Which brand of Kevlar brake hoses are you going to use?"

I'm looking at Goodrich. I picked up a brochure of theirs at MotoGP (Indy) and they seem pretty serious about moto-braking. I understand kevlar lines offer really good lever feel.

"What about your fork springs?  How much do you weigh?  Do you know how much your bike weighs?"

Fork springs are currently stock. I weigh 205 pounds unsuited and the bike is stock with the exception of the 1441 motor and Muzzy exhaust. This is going to be another one of those "see how you like it then adjust" situations. If the nose dives too hard I will be back asking questions about fork mods to mitigate the problem - it sounds like that's more than likely going to happen.

Lastly, I'm going to install a set of Pazzo or CRG shorties. I have some Pazzos on my GSX-R1000 and I love them.

FAST

Holy Crap, I have to sell this ZX-12R!!

Offline Kirk

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Re: I Need the Breakdown on Brakes
« Reply #22 on: January 08, 2012, 12:52:05 AM »
I'm looking at Goodrich. I picked up a brochure of theirs at MotoGP (Indy) and they seem pretty serious about moto-braking. I understand kevlar lines offer really good lever feel.

It's actually "Goodridge", not "Goodrich", and the first set of -2 sized braided stainless steel front brake hoses that Goodridge ever made for a Hayabusa, was for mine.  They worked great.   :tu:

Quote
Fork springs are currently stock. I weigh 205 pounds unsuited and the bike is stock with the exception of the 1441 motor and Muzzy exhaust. This is going to be another one of those "see how you like it then adjust" situations.

http://www.suzukihayabusa.org/forum/index.php?topic=85774.msg960670

That would be like trying to "adjust" the location of an extremely dirty cat box inside a very small studio apartment on a very hot day, to see if you can make it not smell bad.

Quote
If the nose dives too hard I will be back asking questions about fork mods to mitigate the problem - it sounds like that's more than likely going to happen.

It's only slightly more likely to happen than the sun rising tomorrow.  It is, by far, the single largest safety issue with your bike.  Please spend a hundred bucks, or have someone who loves you spend a hundred bucks, and get the correct fork springs for your bike- it may very well save your life. 

I even found the correct fork spring rate for you (1.2 kilo)- that's about as much of this as I can do for you.  :tu:

If it makes you feel any better, the rear shock spring is only a little too soft- it would not be wrong to put that one on your "to do" list for later.  :bike:
 
Quote
Lastly, I'm going to install a set of Pazzo or CRG shorties. I have some Pazzos on my GSX-R1000 and I love them.

FAST

You're a big boy, Mr. Fast, and I trust you to make your own decisions, but I should point out that the correct fork springs for your bike will probably cost less than the levers that you're considering.  :tu:
« Last Edit: January 08, 2012, 02:16:32 AM by Kirk »
-Kirk

Offline FastBikes4Life

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Re: I Need the Breakdown on Brakes
« Reply #23 on: January 08, 2012, 02:02:06 PM »
This is great information. Now I can put together a solid streetbike braking system - the lines, the pads, the springs and the levers. Terrific! Thanks everyone for the input.

Wow, this is one of the few threads where I feel like I actually got something out of it. :thumb:

Fast
Holy Crap, I have to sell this ZX-12R!!

Offline Kirk

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Re: I Need the Breakdown on Brakes
« Reply #24 on: January 08, 2012, 03:22:56 PM »
I even offer a money-back guarantee.   :tu:

Have fun.   :bike:
-Kirk