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Author Topic: Lightened/Balanced Crank  (Read 20070 times)

Offline FastBikes4Life

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Lightened/Balanced Crank
« on: January 07, 2012, 01:50:27 AM »
Has anyone had their crankshaft lightened/balanced? I'm thinking about doing this to get a faster revving motor but I've heard two things about the mod I don't think I'd like.

The first rumor: The motor drops rpms quickly because of reduced spinning mass. Letting off the throttle too quickly would almost feel like applying the brakes.

The second rumor: Because of the reduced weight of the crank, the engine loses some of its characteristic low end grunt. This is traded for a faster revving engine making the bike feel weak in the low to mid range rpm with an explosion of power as the rpms pick up.

Should I be worried about the things I've heard? If you've ridden a Hayabusa with a lightened/balanced crank I'd appreciate the insight. Thanks.

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Offline Kirk

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Re: Lightened/Balanced Crank
« Reply #1 on: January 07, 2012, 11:41:31 AM »
Pull the balancer and go ride it- I think you'll like it.  I think the stock Hayabusa carries too much flywheel weight.  For me, removing the engine's counter-balancer (remember to plug the oil passage in the shaft before you put the shaft back in) made it just about perfect.  Also, you don't have to take the engine apart to do it, and it costs nothing.  It's not needed for engine balance anyways.

I especially noticed how much easier it was to rev-match my downshifts, and how much more quickly the bike transitioned from side to side- it was like taking 50 pounds off the bike.

And both of those rumors are not true- the bike will have LESS flywheel effect with the balancer gone, making it LESS likely for the rear tire to hop on corner entries, and with LESS flywheel mass to accelerate, the low-end acceleration is MORE powerful.
« Last Edit: January 07, 2012, 11:44:47 AM by Kirk »
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Offline sweatnblood

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Re: Lightened/Balanced Crank
« Reply #2 on: January 08, 2012, 03:35:28 PM »
so do you notice  a difference on the highway? I do a lot of commuting to work and am looking for some tricks to keep the busa up and the new liter bikes off my heals :bah:...and looking at doing the R1 wheels next...but figured this would be a good mod if it works because it's cheap :D
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Offline Kirk

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Re: Lightened/Balanced Crank
« Reply #3 on: January 08, 2012, 06:35:15 PM »
Well, tearing down the engine to pull the crank to have it lightened and rebalanced would be a pretty big deal.

Pulling the counterbalancer on the other hand is pretty much a free mod.  The next time you have your exhaust off, just drop the pan and pull the balancer- you can do it yourself, it's not rocket surgery.  Just MAKE SURE TO PLUG THE OIL HOLE IN THE SHAFT before you reinstall it.  In and of itself it won't make a night-and-day difference in the performance of the bike- it's not like adding a turbo.  But it's free, it makes the bike so much nicer to ride, there is a noticeable improvement in acceleration, and when you add up a number of smaller gains, it starts to become significant.

As far as keeping the liter bikes off you, That's really not going to be an issue.  The Hayabusa does many things well.  The liter bikes only do one thing really well- road racing.  Even on a road race track, the only time a liter bike is going to have an advantage over the Hayabusa is in actual road racing (not track days), and only at the EXPERT level.  Obviously, the Hayabusa should not be someone's first choice for expert-level road racing, but a well set-up nearly stock Hayabusa is about 90% as good as a liter bike.

If you decide you want to go this direction, there are some other relatively minor changes that you can make, that will make the Hayabusa significantly better. 

One of those changes is tire sizes.  The Hayabusa comes with a 190/50 rear tire.  190/50 tires don't provide much traction, and they make the bike steer like crap.  When it's time for new tires, just replace it with a 190/55.  Since you were going to have to replace tires at that point anyway, it basically costs nothing to make a huge improvement in traction and steering:

http://www.suzukihayabusa.org/forum/index.php?topic=85775.0

There's also some cheap and simple upgrades that you can make to the geometry of the bike that will make it handle a lot better.  A $15 pair of 1" raising links can be installed in a few minutes in your driveway.  Shortening the final drive two or three teeth will shorten the wheelbase 5/8" to almost an inch, and can be done for next to nothing (by taking two links out of the chain for example).  I think you can still slide the fork tubes up in the triple clamps a little bit (up to about 13mm is good), and that also costs nothing.  Each of these changes makes a noticeable improvement in the handling of the bike, and the combination, (along with the 190/55 rear tire) transforms the bike:

http://www.suzukihayabusa.org/forum/index.php?topic=75439.0

There are also a TON of weight that can, and should, come off your bike.  The steel bar end weights weigh about a pound EACH.  Remove the steel front footpeg weights, the stock crap tool kit, the tank prop rod, the snow shovel, the Frankenstein bolts (replace with shorter allen head cap screws), the grab rail, two of the four grab rail bolts (one on each side), the passenger pegs and the left peg hanger and mounting bolts (if you're not using them), the PAIR system, the exhaust system (replace with the 4-into-1 exhaust system of your choice), and on, and on, and on.  IF it's legal where you live and IF you are safe to ride without them, you can also remove the rear view mirrors.  You don't need expensive mirror block-offs, just use a pair of small black plastic zip-wraps to secure the upper fairing to the "ears" of the fairing stay, right through the bolt holes. Note that this is also an aerodynamic improvement, and will prevent the mirrors from breaking the fairing stay and/or the fairing if you should go down.  I was able to literally unbolt and throw away an easy 50+ pounds from my bike, and it felt like it.  I ultimately got my Hayabusa down to within about 25 pounds of a stock liter bike.  The results are AMAZING, and yet you still have a Hayabusa engine, and the aerodynamics of a Hayabusa, neither of which a liter bike is ever going to have.     
« Last Edit: January 08, 2012, 06:47:40 PM by Kirk »
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Offline sweatnblood

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Re: Lightened/Balanced Crank
« Reply #4 on: January 08, 2012, 07:04:50 PM »
thanks for all the info...so far I have full brocks ti system and a gixr 1000 tail conversion...(not sure if that saved weight or not)...I have vortex rear sets and I have a aftermarket triple...I was going to lower the tubs  to flush it up and lower the bike a bit & end mirrors...funny you said tires...I just put on a set of pilot pures...and it's 190/55... :tu: I seen the after market balancer replacement from ape so that might help to...
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Offline Jay

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Re: Lightened/Balanced Crank
« Reply #5 on: January 08, 2012, 07:24:39 PM »

Offline sweatnblood

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Re: Lightened/Balanced Crank
« Reply #6 on: January 08, 2012, 08:06:00 PM »
prob. forgot to mention I'm a noob when it comes to busas...so I'll prob ask a lot of dumb questions...this is my 1st one...sold my 04 R1 and made the leap...I will say that this thing handles a lot better then I thought it would...so I'm just scanning all the different things people say do to work on the performance over all (weight & HP) I'm hoping to be about 165 with what I have now...with the full ti system, airbox mod, and brocks map on a power commander 5...so thinking this counter thing will help with my power curve...and people say the handling...I run Q2's but read great results with the power pures and the fact they said you loose a few pounds :tu:
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Offline Kirk

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Re: Lightened/Balanced Crank
« Reply #7 on: January 08, 2012, 11:25:21 PM »
thanks for all the info...I have a aftermarket triple...

Do you have an aftermarket set of triple clamps, or do you have an aftermarket handlebar mount that bolts to the top of the stock triple clamps?


Quote
...I was going to lower the tubs  to flush it up

If you have what I think you have, that should be about a half inch, and that's fine.

Quote
...and lower the bike a bit...

Are you talking about sliding the fork tubes up a half-inch, or are you talking about lowering the rear- because lowering the rear is the opposite of the direction that you need to go- it wrecks the handling.  Like I said, I've seen 1" raising links for about $15 on e-bay, go grab some up.

Quote
& end mirrors...

Are you saying that you're going to install bar end mirrors?  What kind?  One or two?

Quote
...funny you said tires...I just put on a set of pilot pures...and it's 190/55... :tu:

GOOD JOB.  I've never ridden that tire, but I have nothing against it, and it offers you some cool things.  I don't know how much lighter it is, but the double compound will make the rear last a lot longer than a comparable single-compound tire.  120/70 front, right? What pressures do you run front and rear?

Quote
...I seen the after market balancer replacement from ape so that might help to...

Yeah, I think Jay just posted up a pic.  Sounds great.  Looks like you just replace the stock balancer shaft with that one (leaving the balancer out, of course).
-Kirk

Offline sweatnblood

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Re: Lightened/Balanced Crank
« Reply #8 on: January 08, 2012, 11:48:04 PM »
my bad...yes just aftermarket top cover and it's about 1/2 inch difference in depth...I'm going to get my suspension set up this week...going up a little in the rear to help the handling and just getting it set right so it will feel more solid in the turns...as for the bar end mirror...I bought the bike like that...I thought I was going to hate them...but they work pretty good so can't complain I guess...I like the Q2's but figured I'd try something different and I got a good price from STG :lol:
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Offline Kirk

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Re: Lightened/Balanced Crank
« Reply #9 on: January 09, 2012, 12:42:38 AM »
Well, I've heard the Q2s are a good tire too.

Sounds like you and I are on the same page on the handlebar mount- just slide the tubes up until it's flush and you should be good to go.

If you have the Napoleon bar end or any of the copies of it, I can understand why you like it.  You just have one, on the left side?

Which raising links did you get?

Do you have somebody lined up to put your fork springs in?

Tire pressures?
-Kirk

Offline Kirk

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Re: Lightened/Balanced Crank
« Reply #10 on: January 09, 2012, 12:50:08 AM »
Sweatnblood-

I apologize- I just realized that you weren't the O.P.

I had been talking with the O.P. about some other stuff, so my conversation with you sort of skipped over the most important part and we sort of got ahead of ourselves.  Read this:

http://www.suzukihayabusa.org/forum/index.php?topic=85774.0
-Kirk

Offline sweatnblood

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Re: Lightened/Balanced Crank
« Reply #11 on: January 09, 2012, 01:03:55 AM »
I was looking at race tech...I bought a rear spring for my R1 and liked it...the price was good...so was thinking of going with them for the front and rear...prob looking at about 300 for parts...but I do hate the way the busa feels in the corners...kinda all over the place...and I'm not even pushing it that hard due to my experience  :bah: I have a guy here in San diego who is a suspension guru and works on bikes...that's all he really does...
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Offline FastBikes4Life

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Re: Lightened/Balanced Crank
« Reply #12 on: January 12, 2012, 11:58:45 AM »
I was looking at race tech...I bought a rear spring for my R1 and liked it...the price was good...so was thinking of going with them for the front and rear...prob looking at about 300 for parts...but I do hate the way the busa feels in the corners...kinda all over the place...and I'm not even pushing it that hard due to my experience  :bah: I have a guy here in San diego who is a suspension guru and works on bikes...that's all he really does...

What do you find the Hayabusa doing that you hate? The most common complaint I've heard is that it seems to want to drift a bit wide in the tighter stuff.

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Offline Kirk

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Re: Lightened/Balanced Crank
« Reply #13 on: January 12, 2012, 03:53:03 PM »
sweatnblood, get your Hayabusa sorted out like we've outlined here, and it will be your new favorite bike for just about everything.  Even when sport-riding on the street, you really can't go fast enough for the excessive width of the Hayabusa's engine to become an issue.

The only place that I feel that a Supersport type bike is superior to a properly set-up Hayabusa, would be for actual road racing (not track days), and even then, only at the expert level. 
-Kirk

Offline sweatnblood

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Re: Lightened/Balanced Crank
« Reply #14 on: January 12, 2012, 04:58:05 PM »
I just got the suspension sorted for me by my guy here in san diego...man it feels so much nicer...I bought the 1"raisers and they are on the way along with a new racetech rear spring...I'm working on some new front springs in feb. and that should get the busa run'n on rails :bike: I have a line on some R1 wheels...if I could just sell some of my freak'n helmets...lol...I figured that will be good upgrade...said I'll save about 4lbs a wheel...talked to the APE rep and he said he would not take out the counter balancer unless I was going to get my crank balanced...so prob. going to save for the cam and a dyno tune from Lee's and hope that would keep the BMW RR's off my ass :tu: again thanks for all and any info...it's been a real help on getting this thing solid...
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Offline Kirk

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Re: Lightened/Balanced Crank
« Reply #15 on: January 12, 2012, 05:15:47 PM »
Well, I hope you enjoy it.  :tu:

There's not really any "sorting" that you can do to the front suspension with the stock springs in the forks.  There's no way to "adjust" to compensate for the wrong fork springs being in it.  And if you have to re-spring one end or the other, it needs front springs ten times more than it needs a rear spring- I'd do the front first.  How much do you weigh- you might not even need a rear spring.

Who was it at APE that recommended not removing the counter-balancer, and what was their reasoning?  Jay from APE was the one that posted the picture and link to their part above to help you to do it. 

The counter-balancer has NOTHING to do with the balancing of the engine- it's just in there to reduce the amount of second-order harmonic vibrations that the rider can feel.   :bike:
« Last Edit: January 12, 2012, 05:35:57 PM by Kirk »
-Kirk

Offline sweatnblood

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Re: Lightened/Balanced Crank
« Reply #16 on: January 12, 2012, 09:58:29 PM »
I just went ahead and bought both front and rear springs from race tech...they give a real good discount for military...I wrote the ape email address for tech...and he wrote back saying he suggested to get the crank balanced if I was going to take out the counter balancer...but still thinking about it...I'll get the springs put in...in feb and I'm sure will feel a big deference...excited...I'm about 190...if my taxes get done there will be a paint job coming...don't worry no yellow frames :hys: :hys:
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Offline Kirk

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Re: Lightened/Balanced Crank
« Reply #17 on: January 21, 2012, 12:46:39 PM »
Lol.   :lol:

So at your weight, with a stock-ish weight bike, I'm guessing about 1.1 kilo springs in the front?
-Kirk

Offline sweatnblood

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Re: Lightened/Balanced Crank
« Reply #18 on: January 21, 2012, 01:00:56 PM »
I looked it up on line and then talked to the race tech rep...can't remember but I'm sure he sent the right spring rate...I have to call someone from yahama and see if the 09 wheels are the same as the 04+ or different...I have a line on some 09 R1 wheels for 400$ but have to make sure they are the same because I bought a front axle from chopleg for the conversion...but he said he was not sure about the 09 wheels...I have a question about the V stacks...but can't seem to find a solid answer...not really interested in just some "peak" hp gains as I am interested in the curve...and where most of my riding will take place in the middle of the RPM range...so should I be getting short or long stacks...I figure after the wheel conversion I'll save for the cam and tune and that should pretty much finish it up for the most part... :bike:
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Offline fvance

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Re: Lightened/Balanced Crank
« Reply #19 on: January 21, 2012, 01:34:32 PM »
The factory set up, two long and two short stack is probably the best all around set up. Do not get the Factory Pro VS's. They are junk, a very poor design.
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Offline Kirk

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Re: Lightened/Balanced Crank
« Reply #20 on: January 21, 2012, 01:53:19 PM »
I think Fred's advice here is sound.   :tu:
-Kirk

Offline sweatnblood

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Re: Lightened/Balanced Crank
« Reply #21 on: January 22, 2012, 09:25:59 AM »
always happy to save some cash on parts I really don't need...thanks again for all the advice :tu:
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Offline Jay

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Re: Lightened/Balanced Crank
« Reply #22 on: January 28, 2012, 01:51:54 PM »


Who was it at APE that recommended not removing the counter-balancer, and what was their reasoning?  Jay from APE was the one that posted the picture and link to their part above to help you to do it. 

The counter-balancer has NOTHING to do with the balancing of the engine- it's just in there to reduce the amount of second-order harmonic vibrations that the rider can feel.   :bike:

We don't recommend doing that. On the race balanced cranks, there is no need for the counterbalancer as you can no longer feel "second order harmonic vibrations" The part we showed is what everyone uses that has us do the cranks. Most busas we remove the counterbalancer gear on the crank completely.

Most busa cranks are not well balanced from the factory. The gen 2s are the worst. The counterbalancer simply mask the symptons of this out of balance condition. So when the crank is perfectly balanced, there is nothing left to "mask".

We get all kinds of stuff in here that people think it is all right to do. We get strokers for repair, that were never balanced after stroking. We can look at the mains and tell it has been run like that. Of course you will then see the threads that "strokers don't live".    :lol:

Offline Kirk

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Re: Lightened/Balanced Crank
« Reply #23 on: January 28, 2012, 02:14:02 PM »
Lol.  Thanks, Jay.  I have to respect the fact that your experience obviously involves a whole heck of a lot more Hayabusas than mine.

I cannot imagine making changes along the lines of modifying the crankshaft to change the stroke of an engine and then not even bothering to balance it- that's hilarious.  I used to work for a race car fabrication shop, and we used to keep a scrap book of photographs of some of the stupid stuff that we saw come in the door.  Ya gotta laugh!  :hys:

Maybe mine was just balanced better than some.  Mine was a Gen I.  Even after removing the solid steel bar end weights and footpeg weights, and switching to solid aluminum foot pegs, mine was still plenty smooth after removing the balancer.  There's no way anyone would have noticed- I would have had to point it out to them.  Based on my experience, a number of friends have removed theirs, with no complaints (all Gen I bikes).

The reduction in flywheel effect was startling- it made rev-matching downshifts SO much easier, and it felt like it took 50 pounds off the bike, when flipping it from side to side.  It also reduced the flywheel-induced portion of the engine braking, which seemed to make the back-torque limiter's job easier, making corner entries smoother- I regularly backed my Hayabusa into turn 9 at PIR. 

I can't imagine how much more it must improve the bike, for you to grind off that whole big ring thing that Suzuki used to drive the balancer. 

I guess, bottom line, is that if I had to go into the bottom end of one of these bikes, I'd almost definitely send you the rotating / reciprocating assembly while it was out, for you to grind it off and balance everything.  But it's so easy to just drop the pan and dump the balancer, if you have no other need to go any further into the engine.

It is unfortunate that Suzuki didn't do as good a job at balancing the Gen II engine, as you say.

But since it has nothing to do with the actual balance of the engine, I'd be tempted to try it if I get a Gen II, to see if I could tolerate the additional vibes felt by the rider.  Either way, it ain't gonna hurt the engine, and if I decide I don't like it, I can just put it back in.
-Kirk

Offline Kurt

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Re: Lightened/Balanced Crank
« Reply #24 on: January 28, 2012, 02:16:39 PM »
Holy crap  how could someone stroke a crank and not balance it  :bah:

I build Balancing machines for a living. and wonder what the spec is on Gen2 cranks.  I know some of the specs we are building to now are getting crazy