86mm Turbo Pistons For NA Motor

[GRUNTMAX]

Hi,
Oh well, I tried with the 1mm o/size valves, motor turned over OK whilst degreeing the exhaust. Then I went to do the intake, 98, oh, that a bit low, moved the roller cam chain sprocket in the slot, turned less than 360, and, oh shi*, stuck. Off with it's head, again. Ordered stock size valves, and an extra 0.76mm spring steel head gasket just in case that will reduce CR from 13:1 to 12:1.
No, I'm not changing the base gasket again, was enough drama getting all the rings in properly with the 86mm offset big block, and no, I ain't changing the pistons either. I'd like to try & stick to the 13:1 CR if possible, for the road with 68mm stroke 1580cc.

"What it is";
Ross Pistons 86mm (Turbo) Used As NA Pistons Clearance Info

Intake Valve Pocket Depth   : 3.81mm +
Piston Deck Height Clearance: 0.40mm +
Muzzys Head Gasket-Spring St: 0.75mm +
Total                      =: 4.96mm =
Web Cam Intake Valve Lift  -: 3.95mm -
Clearance                  =: 1.01mm =
1.27mm required
CHECK INTAKE VALVE HEAD DECK CLEARANCE AT LEAST 0.27mm

Exhaust Valve Pocket Depth    : 2.80mm +
Piston Deck Height Clearance  : 0.40mm +
Muzzys Head Gasket-Spring St: 0.75mm +
Total                                      =: 3.95mm =
Web Cam Exhaust Valve Lift  - : 3.78mm -
Clearance                               =: 0.17mm =
2.03mm required
CHECK EXHAUST VALVE HEAD DECK CLEARANCE AT LEAST 1.86mm

ABOVE WILL GIVE 13:1 CR

IF ADDING EXTRA 0.75mm MUZZYS SPRING STEEL HEAD GASKET--12:1 CR

INTAKE VALVE LESS THAN 0.48mm PROUD
EXHAUST VALVE HEAD DECK CLEARANCE 1.11mm

Minimum Valve To Piston Clearance

Min 0.050" (1.27mm) for Intake  @ 8 degrees ATDC

Min 0.080" (2.03mm) for Exhaust @ 8 degrees BTDC

Now, after reading "What it is" above, how much extra clearance will 8 degrees before & after TDC buy me ?????
Have re-cut the valve seats, 15 turns with Neway valve seat cutter as had 300 to 320 shims before with correct clearances.

This ain't easy you know, try doing it when ya have a drunk driver inflicted severe traumatic brain injury

[knecum]

What do you mean your not going to change this or that?  what if you have to or you'll have to change the whole motor when it blows up How do you know you have whatever valve to piston when it won't even turn over?

[sportbikeryder]

I don't even know what the question is really....

How far are the pistons in the hole?

If you are concerned about changing the base gasket, why in teh hell did you put 86mm pistons with offset bores in a motor. No offense, but you really shouldn't be messing with big boy motors if you aren't able or willing to change a base gasket. Changing a base gasket is probably one of the easiest things to do when building a motor.

When you are setting up a new configuration for the first time, I would do so without the rings installed on the pistons as well as with only light valve springs on the valves.

Also, on a new, unfamiliar configuration, only checking PTV clearance at 2 places is asking for trouble as well in my opinion.

[sportbikeryder]

Hi,
Oh well, I tried with the 1mm o/size valves, motor turned over OK whilst degreeing the exhaust. Then I went to do the intake, 98, oh, that a bit low, moved the roller cam chain sprocket in the slot, turned less than 360, and, oh shi*, stuck. Off with it's head, again. Ordered stock size valves, and an extra 0.76mm spring steel head gasket just in case that will reduce CR from 13:1 to 12:1.
No, I'm not changing the base gasket again, was enough drama getting all the rings in properly with the 86mm offset big block, and no, I ain't changing the pistons either. I'd like to try & stick to the 13:1 CR if possible, for the road with 68mm stroke 1580cc.

PLEASE tell me you did not put oversize valves in a head that was not machined for oversize valves. I really wouldn't think that would be a remotely feasible thought, but I cannot figure out why you mention you ordered stock size valves unless you were going to put stock size valves in the same location that you currently have +1mm valves.

[GRUNTMAX]

  Shock, horror. Yes, I put oversize valves in a head not machined for oversize valves. Was never told not to, I thought cutting the valve seats a bit would do it, but oviously not. Was OK when I had it set up for supercharged with 10:1 CR. But now am going for 13:1 CR NA with 395/378 cams. Would rather have the 13:1 than oversize valves anyway. That is why I have now ordered stock size valves, for more piston to valve clearance.
I've written the piston deck height clearance down 0.40mm.
Sorry, but changing a base gasket is a drama cause there is so little room between the cylinder bores. Already busted 2 x oil rings in previous on/offs. Last time was easier as used 4 x ring compressors at once. If you think 2 x spring steel 0.76mm head gaskets is a 100% no no, just tell me.

The calculations were done for TDC. I just wanted to know approximately how much extra clearance I would have at 8degrees ?

PS. Don't knock learning the hard way. I certainly am.
It's not really a (edited). It's only a motorcycle engine.

[knecum]

Your a hot mess! !!!    Its to much to try to help you.   THIS SHARK IS OUT.SORRY!!

[sportbikeryder]

Learning the hard way is not a problem. Trying to build an 86mm bore offset stroker motor with oversize valves that have stock size seats and not being able to get pistons into the cylinders isn't learning the hard way, it is just a bunch of messed up guesses that just aren't going to work together.


While it may work, two head gaskets will present quite alot of opportunity for leakage, as well as being more prone to failure due to having more area exposed to cylinder pressure. Changing the deck clearance with base gaskets is the way to do it. Your issue with installing the rings is the lack of sufficient taper at the bottom of the bores to allow the rings to enter the cylinders form the bore size.

Is the head at least ported?

[GRUNTMAX]

Your a hot mess! !!!    Its to much to try to help you.   THIS SHARK IS OUT.SORRY!!

Thanks for your kind help. At least I took your previous advise on the cams.
"A hot mess", yeah, I kind of know that. Been described as a lot worse over the past 5 years.
Sharks never used to worry me in my old job, just used to belt em in the guts with a pipe wrench

[GRUNTMAX]

Learning the hard way is not a problem. Trying to build an 86mm bore offset stroker motor with oversize valves that have stock size seats and not being able to get pistons into the cylinders isn't learning the hard way, it is just a bunch of messed up guesses that just aren't going to work together.


While it may work, two head gaskets will present quite alot of opportunity for leakage, as well as being more prone to failure due to having more area exposed to cylinder pressure. Changing the deck clearance with base gaskets is the way to do it. Your issue with installing the rings is the lack of sufficient taper at the bottom of the bores to allow the rings to enter the cylinders form the bore size.

Is the head at least ported?

No worries, advise taken. I'll save the 2nd head gasket for the Gen2 transplant victim or the next one. Yes the head is hand ported. All intake ports CC'd up at 152cc.
Just hope I'm OK with the 0.40mm deck height clearance with stock size valves. I have the Brocks valve clearance tool.

[GRUNTMAX]

Oh well, have just checked, have a 0.020" (0.508mm) unused base gasket here that will give a deck height clearance @ TDC of 0.91mm on top of the base gasket thats already on for a 11.97:1 CR.

0.91mm deck height clearance--- Enough valve clearance with stock size valves ???

0.40mm deck height clearance--- Enough valve clearance with stock size valves ???

Thanks

[knecum]

no offense you just got to much going on for me to give you help then something else is wrong and its broke or whatever!!   then you say well you told me to do this!!! you feel me??  I mean i could build it but I'M in N.J.

[GRUNTMAX]

No offence taken whatsoever. Your not the only one who advised me to go with that cam profile. You've been very helpful in the past, & I do appreciate it 
Oh well, looks like 12:1

[wildphil69]

Not to be an asshole or anything but dont you think its time to take it to a builder?

[Jay]

PLEASE tell me you did not put oversize valves in a head that was not machined for oversize valves. I really wouldn't think that would be a remotely feasible thought, but I cannot figure out why you mention you ordered stock size valves unless you were going to put stock size valves in the same location that you currently have +1mm valves.

Wow, I never would have thought of that. I thought I had seen everything.

[GRUNTMAX]

Not to be an asshole or anything but dont you think its time to take it to a builder?

Phil, the only assholes that really exist in this world are insurance company defense lawyers.
No. I don't like to incur debts.
Been reading my Racing Engine Builders Handbook again.
The good ol days;
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CfMdHEY9weU

Watch out for Sharks mate.
Sooner or later, I'll get it right. What do ya reckon;
11.97:1
 Intake Valve Pocket Depth     : 3.81mm +
Piston Deck Height Clearance  : 0.91mm +
Muzzys Head Gasket-Spring St: 0.75mm +
Total                                       =: 5.47mm =
Web Cam Intake Valve Lift      -: 3.95mm -
Clearance                               =: 1.52mm =
1.27mm required

Exhaust Valve Pocket Depth      : 2.80mm +
Piston Deck Height Clearance    : 0.91mm +
Muzzys Head Gasket-Spring St  : 0.75mm +
Total                                         =: 4.46mm =
Web Cam Exhaust Valve Lift      -: 3.78mm -
Clearance                                  =: 0.68mm =
2.03mm required
CHECK EXHAUST VALVE HEAD DECK CLEARANCE AT LEAST 1.35mm
 

[wildphil69]

Good Luck...i feel Debt in your future

[GRUNTMAX]

PLEASE tell me you did not put oversize valves in a head that was not machined for oversize valves. I really wouldn't think that would be a remotely feasible thought, but I cannot figure out why you mention you ordered stock size valves unless you were going to put stock size valves in the same location that you currently have +1mm valves.

Wow, I never would have thought of that. I thought I had seen everything.

Yes indeed, now you have seen everything
1mm oversize valves in a Gen2 head. No machining. Only done with Neway Valve Seat Cutter set.
Degreed up just fine with the 10:1 CR 

[GRUNTMAX]

Good Luck...i feel Debt in your future

Thanks Phil, your not very good at reading between the lines are ya, in fact, your absolutely wrong in regards to your future predictions 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zV-RbmLc3Ss

.....and just to be sure, might even bung on a 0.010 copper base gasket to make up for the 14degrees & oversize valve pockets. 

[Jay]

PLEASE tell me you did not put oversize valves in a head that was not machined for oversize valves. I really wouldn't think that would be a remotely feasible thought, but I cannot figure out why you mention you ordered stock size valves unless you were going to put stock size valves in the same location that you currently have +1mm valves.

Wow, I never would have thought of that. I thought I had seen everything.

Yes indeed, now you have seen everything
1mm oversize valves in a Gen2 head. No machining. Only done with Neway Valve Seat Cutter set.
Degreed up just fine with the 10:1 CR 

I guess you now realize that putting a larger valve on a stock seat with stock size throat hasen't acomplished anything except having a heavier valve that will run into stuff.

Glad you were sharp enough to stop when the motor wouldn't turn over and took it apart to see what the problem was.  We have had customers that would push the bike and pop the clutch in gear to see if they could get it to turn over. 

[GRUNTMAX]

  Thanks Jay. I'm obviously not your only customer with a Severe Traumatic Brain Injury
Also what would of made a difference with the 10:1 CR for supercharging, is that it was set up with Gen1 Intake with offset cam pin for intake, and Gen2 Intake as exhaust. 107 n 109 lobe centres.
I like APE's Roller Cam Chain Conversion   

[GRUNTMAX]

  4th hit of the start button & 
Ran a bit hot at first, now OK. Just hope it doesn't blow up on the dyno 

[GRUNTMAX]

Oh well Next day, rode it the 20 miles home, dyno not available for a few days, so thought I'd take it back to the shed to fix a small oil leak. 10 miles, half way, changing up from 2nd to 3rd, motor stopped.     It had seized.  All that brain injured satisfaction had just gone down the drain.
A lot of bearing flecks in the oil drain off. So much for all those bearing clearance measurements. It did have all green main crank bearings.
See what it is when I rip it apart I guess.
Life's like that 

........bearings look OK
 
Time to rip it's head off ------- Again !
Learning the hard way 

[Competition CNC]

Wow.  I dont even know where to begin......

Its over whelming.....

[Penianator]

    not that your stupid....only smiley guy that points up. Lol

[GRUNTMAX]

Wow.  I dont even know where to begin......

Its over whelming.....

Look at it this way Jim,  as a Professional Engine builder, it can only increase your workload.

[Competition CNC]

Wow.  I dont even know where to begin......

Its over whelming.....

Look at it this way Jim,  as a Professional Engine builder, it can only increase your workload.

Yea but I hate to see people go thru the aches and pains of learning.   But some people like working on stuff as half the fun of it all.

When I was 12 (1976) I rebuilt my 1972 honda z50a motor and it was all new to me.  I had a basic understanding of engines from working on my 5hp briggs and stratton engine from my go kart.  I had blown that Briggs up several times and had to replace the piston and rod from donor engines, but that honda engine was some kind of complicated exotic engine for me at that time.
After I took the engine apart and looked at all the pieces, I bought a manual to put it back together.
So I learned at an early age that getting in deep over your head can be scary but with enough info you can dig your way out.

When I was 8 or 9 my dad who was a radial aircraft engine mechanic (late 1940's early 50's) in the air force, let me struggle and work my way threw it to learn how to solve problems.  Each night after I went to sleep he would check out my "progress" in the shop on my briggs 5hp engine.  When I progressed to the honda engine a few years later, he recommended a service manual.  A what, I said.  I learned to really like service manuals.   I rebuilt my first 350 chevy engine at 15 for a T bucket I was building.  That was my first car at age 16 and I learned a lot in the process and it was frustrating at times.
So I'm very familiar with working your way threw the unknowns in with an over whelming project.

I guess some people enjoy the challenge as much as the results.

[BATTMAN]

Every man has to know his own limits.  Box the motor up and send it to a builder.

[knecum]

Every man has to know his own limits.  Box the motor up and send it to a builder.

Ill give you a good deal!

[fvance]

My first Busa motor I built myself, all oem parts with Carpenter head. Second motor not many oem parts with Carpenter head. I thought it was beyond my expertise or lack of. Knecum built it and is bad azz.

[GRUNTMAX]

Not possible, many bent valves. Will now have to purchase the pistons I should have used in the 1st place

[fvance]

If you bent all the valves get a set of Gen2 titaniums. They drop right in. You can find a set cheap, nitrous and turbo guys cant run them.

[80 Theory]

The price of having a professional build your motor is nothing compared to the price of the parts.  Steve Knecum put together a Bonneville RECORD SETTING, 1634 stroker motor, in record time for me.  271 horsepower on 110 ERC race gas, 284 Horsepower on VP-Q16.

Yeah, I might have been able to do it.  I know about rod bolt stretch, piston clearance, bearing clearance, etc.  I've built stoked Harley engines for years (truing the flywheels in my lathe).  I even have my own remote Sunnen hone.  But I wanted it done right the first time!

Life is short.  I'm spending mine riding.

Mike

[GRUNTMAX]

  Only 4 bent exhaust valves. No other damage. Maybe it was the compressed spring steel head gasket that stuffed the numbers up, & when the head was taken off the deck height clearance was around 0.4mm less than it should have been.
I'll save the other motor for my supercharged stroker motor build. Who knows, I may have a professional builder do that for me.

[GRUNTMAX]

Wow.  I dont even know where to begin......

Its over whelming.....

Look at it this way Jim,  as a Professional Engine builder, it can only increase your workload.

Yea but I hate to see people go thru the aches and pains of learning.   But some people like working on stuff as half the fun of it all.

When I was 12 (1976) I rebuilt my 1972 honda z50a motor and it was all new to me.  I had a basic understanding of engines from working on my 5hp briggs and stratton engine from my go kart.  I had blown that Briggs up several times and had to replace the piston and rod from donor engines, but that honda engine was some kind of complicated exotic engine for me at that time.
After I took the engine apart and looked at all the pieces, I bought a manual to put it back together.
So I learned at an early age that getting in deep over your head can be scary but with enough info you can dig your way out.

When I was 8 or 9 my dad who was a radial aircraft engine mechanic (late 1940's early 50's) in the air force, let me struggle and work my way threw it to learn how to solve problems.  Each night after I went to sleep he would check out my "progress" in the shop on my briggs 5hp engine.  When I progressed to the honda engine a few years later, he recommended a service manual.  A what, I said.  I learned to really like service manuals.   I rebuilt my first 350 chevy engine at 15 for a T bucket I was building.  That was my first car at age 16 and I learned a lot in the process and it was frustrating at times.
So I'm very familiar with working your way threw the unknowns in with an over whelming project.

I guess some people enjoy the challenge as much as the results.

I was a Fitter & Machinist, Marine Engineer, Fishing Master (Perfect Storm job) & Saturation Diver (flangemaster "No Leaks"). I was learning how to use MastercamX & Solidworks while I was at sea working before I got wiped out by the drunk driver & copped this brain injury, now I can't even get past the first lesson.  Challenge ? More like a frustrating rehabilitation.
So how would you CNC port a head for a Supercharged motor ? Oversize Exhaust Valves only ?

[80 Theory]

I'd CNC my head by putting it a box and sending it to Bob Carpenter.

Mike

[Oz Booster]

Brad was it running fine without noise for a while?? sort of surprised it made 20 kms if you had a clearance prob

My take on a supercharged motor is its essentially a very big all motor and should be treated as such in just about everything except compression and even that i think not as low as a turbo ,
 unlike a turbo that has backpressures and needs exhaust velocity and  have the huge mid range torque rise

[GRUNTMAX]

Brad was it running fine without noise for a while?? sort of surprised it made 20 kms if you had a clearance prob

My take on a supercharged motor is its essentially a very big all motor and should be treated as such in just about everything except compression and even that i think not as low as a turbo ,
 unlike a turbo that has backpressures and needs exhaust velocity and  have the huge mid range torque rise

It was running fine without noise. Was shifting up from 2nd to 3rd whilst going down a slight slope.
When I let the clutch out (without using easyshifter) back wheel just locked up. My CR is already low enough so I'll use Muzzys 13:1 Pistons (waiting on price).

Supercharging;

Have a Gen1 Intake with Brocks Offset Cam Pin & Gen2 Intake with the Roller Cam Chain Sprockets sitting in a box ready to use for the Supercharged motor. All to do with the lift & duration. But I reckon on a 1500cc + busa motor if I had Competition CNC do a CNC job on a Gen2 Head it would be good with 1mm oversize exhaust valves only.
Maybe Jim can do the figures ???? What do ya reckon ???

1500cc + Supercharged Busa Cams
Intake Opens BTDC : 28 degrees
Intake Closes ABDC : 68 degrees
Exhaust Opens BBDC: 72.5 degrees
Exhaust Closes ATDC: 28.5 degrees
Cam Calculations  Lobe Center / Duration for 110 & 112 degrees
Overlap: 56.50 degrees
Intake Duration: 276.00 degrees
Exhaust Duration: 281.00 degrees
Intake Installed Centerline of 110.00 degrees ATDC.
Exhaust Installed Centerline of 112.00 degrees BTDC.

[Oz Booster]

What cam chain  tensioner,
and Roller without top guide ?? or cut down guide and spacers ?

[GRUNTMAX]

What cam chain  tensioner,
and Roller without top guide ?? or cut down guide and spacers ?

APE Manual Cam Chain Tensioner
Roller without top guide.

Never mind, I remember when I was a machinist using a Bridgeport Vertical milling machine & "touching on". Well, I reckon after 20kms one day & 10kms the next before those 4 bent exhaust valves "touched on" is about the best "touch on" ya can get.

About the best compression ratio I could get with those pistons & cams would be 9.05:1
Head Chamber Volume  : 18.00 cc
Vlve Reliefs Piston  :  8.27
Deck Clearance @ TDC :  3.20
Deck Volume @ TDC    : 26.86
Head Gasket Bore     : 86.45
Head Gasket Thickness:  0.72
Head Gasket Volume   :  4.23
Swept Cylinder Volume:395.00
Total Combustion Vol : 49.09cc
Compression Ratio    :  9.05:1

Base Gaskets
 3.1mm
 2.4mm
 0.4mm
=5.9mm
-3.7mm removed
=2.2mm exhaust valve clearance
+1.0mm deck height clearance with previous 3.7mm base gaskets
=3.2mm deck height clearance

Looks like the 13:1 pistons are a must have

...and even then, the CR will come up a bit more if required as those pistons are rated @ 13:1 for Gen1 18.8cc head instead of 18cc Gen2 head that I'm using.

[knecum]

Why don't you just have someone build it and then have fun.. Your doing way to much math and then have shit contact..

[GRUNTMAX]

Why don't you just have someone build it and then have fun.. Your doing way to much math and then have shit contact..

This is my rehabilitation. I have a calculator, & Dynomation5 software for the CR calcs.
While I'm waiting on parts, plenty of time to get ready for the next step. My latest stuff up was bunging the cases back together then finding out my gear selectors weren't right then I had to split em again
Today, it started, with the 13:1,s in it. Just hope it doesn't blow up on the dyno