Long Cranking Before Starting

[stepaukob]

Hey Guys,
I haven't been here for awhile. I need help, my '02 Hayabusa has always been difficult to start. It's been doing this since I bought a few years ago. Initially I thought it was the battery but after multiple batteries I'm not sure what to do. Even with a jump from a car it doesn't start well.

Here's a video. It usually starts a "little" quicker but many times it's like what's happening in the video.

I put a turbo on it but this has been doing this since prior to turbo being put on. I've also posted this on other Hayabusa sites it it looks familiar.

2002
PCII
RCC stage I turbo (hard starting prior to the turbo)
New plugs (closed gap a bit due to turbo)
Valve clearances within limits
Injectors tested and passed well
Plugs look good when pulled

Not sure, if anyone has any ideas let me know. Thanks

Link to Video Below

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yfzgwsjh7Lk&context=C4486aa5ADvjVQa1PpcFOlF-eHYtx5y-17NtiaIsV8BJyJyGa4PUw=

[TT]

it,s your fuel pressure, when u first turn the key on the fuel press gage shows good press and then it drops as u crank the engine, then all of a sudden the press gage goes back up and the bike fire,s find out why ur fuel pump isnt always on. its deffinitly fuel press prob

[sportbikeryder]

it,s your fuel pressure, when u first turn the key on the fuel press gage shows good press and then it drops as u crank the engine, then all of a sudden the press gage goes back up and the bike fire,s find out why ur fuel pump isnt always on. its deffinitly fuel press prob

Good catch on the fuel pressure, that is almost definately related to the issue.

Step, try running a separate hot wire the fuel pump and be sure teh pump is running prior to trying to crank. Now, the question is, why is the pump not running, and more than likely, since you noted it was hard to start prior to putting the turbo on, not getting power to teh injectors since they are both powered from teh same circuit.

Try running a separate power wire from your batter positive to a toggle and to teh positive terminal on the pump. Don't disconnect the current pump wire though. Add a fuse in the temporary power wire if you like to prevent burning yourself up. Apply power to the temp connection and after getting the pressure up, try starting the bike.

Do you ever have an intermittent cut out once it gets running?

[TT]

see if u got any code,s

[stepaukob]

it,s your fuel pressure, when u first turn the key on the fuel press gage shows good press and then it drops as u crank the engine, then all of a sudden the press gage goes back up and the bike fire,s find out why ur fuel pump isnt always on. its deffinitly fuel press prob

Good catch on the fuel pressure, that is almost definitely related to the issue.

Step, try running a separate hot wire the fuel pump and be sure teh pump is running prior to trying to crank. Now, the question is, why is the pump not running, and more than likely, since you noted it was hard to start prior to putting the turbo on, not getting power to teh injectors since they are both powered from teh same circuit.

Try running a separate power wire from your batter positive to a toggle and to teh positive terminal on the pump. Don't disconnect the current pump wire though. Add a fuse in the temporary power wire if you like to prevent burning yourself up. Apply power to the temp connection and after getting the pressure up, try starting the bike.

Do you ever have an intermittent cut out once it gets running?

Someone else pointed out the pressure also. I think I've seen the drop in pressure happen so often that I never gave it any thought.

I tried starting again multiple times today. Appr 11 out of 12 times the pressure stayed at 43 lbs during the cranking and the bike started. When the bike warmed up it started really quick. The fuel pump has always primed before and after turbo install. The bike has never cut out once its started, that's the odd part.

Also, yesterday the pressure dropped the majority of times cranking yet today dropped only once.

Code says nothing is wrong

I'm not home now, I'll try again tomorrow to see what it does or will also try any suggestions.

[TT]

u have a turbo on the bike now right??  ur not running  the stock fuel pump are u??

[Oz Booster]

tried unplugging the PC2 ?

[stepaukob]

u have a turbo on the bike now right??  ur not running  the stock fuel pump are u??

Aftermarket pump but the hard starting was occurring even before turbo was installed. I didn't have the fuel pressure gauge installed at that time but same symptoms as before turbo install.

tried unplugging the PC2 ?

Unplugged the other day and no difference although I wasn't looking at the fuel pressure at that time. It just cranked forever with the PCII unplugged. I'll try it again tomorrow but I don't think that's it.

[TT]

check your tip over switch, check the connection unplug it and plug it back in again, and for that matter i would check all ur connections

[sportbikeryder]

Make sure you also disconnect the crank pickup from the PC when you disconnect it.

[Ghost-Geezer]

I have had at least two or three occasions where my turbo-bike has not started right away but that is when it was hot.  You might want to pull a plug and check for spark while turning it over but if that were the case, you would likely smell gas.  I tend to agree with what was said before, you have a fuel delivery issue.  Remove the fuel filter and try it again.

Dave

[stepaukob]

New video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gR2Z__itxa4

Pressure drops after initial key on but SOMETIMES comes back up during cranking and when this happens the bike fires quickly.

The fuel pressure seems to be more dependent on the starter button being engaged. The fuel system is almost all new, new aftermarket pump, injectors cleaned, new FMU. It just seems more electrical than mechanical because of it's inconsistent starting but yet runs great once it does start.

Does the ECU have anything to do with engaging the pump when the starter button is engaged? The pressure comes up whenever it wants during the cranking stage. When it does come up, the bike fires right up.

It would also be interesting to see another bike's fuel pressure (with a stage I turbo) throughout the process of keying on and cranking over. There's no obviously leaks and once started does not show any signs of fuel being restricted.

I also took the PCII out of the equation totally. The same thing happens except that pressure only builds to 38lbs during cranking and even then does not build pressure every time I hit the starter button (similar to what was happening with PCII connected).

[sportbikeryder]

Try running a separate power wire from your batter positive to a toggle and to teh positive terminal on the pump. Don't disconnect the current pump wire though. Add a fuse in the temporary power wire if you like to prevent burning yourself up. Apply power to the temp connection and after getting the pressure up, try starting the bike.

[stepaukob]

Try running a separate power wire from your batter positive to a toggle and to teh positive terminal on the pump. Don't disconnect the current pump wire though. Add a fuse in the temporary power wire if you like to prevent burning yourself up. Apply power to the temp connection and after getting the pressure up, try starting the bike.

I could although that won't really tell me much as I already know the bike will start when the pressure is up.

I'd be more worried about possibly frying the starter relay or fuel pump. Probably neither would happen but as I mentioned, I already know the bike will start when the pressure is up. 

[sportbikeryder]

Try running a separate power wire from your battery positive to a toggle and to the positive terminal on the pump. Don't disconnect the current pump wire though. Add a fuse in the temporary power wire if you like to prevent burning yourself up. Apply power to the temp connection and after getting the pressure up, try starting the bike.

I could although that won't really tell me much as I already know the bike will start when the pressure is up.

I'd be more worried about possibly frying the starter relay or fuel pump. Probably neither would happen but as I mentioned, I already know the bike will start when the pressure is up. 

Ok, you're own your own then to track down why the pressure is not consistent.

[stepaukob]

Try running a separate power wire from your battery positive to a toggle and to the positive terminal on the pump. Don't disconnect the current pump wire though. Add a fuse in the temporary power wire if you like to prevent burning yourself up. Apply power to the temp connection and after getting the pressure up, try starting the bike.

I could although that won't really tell me much as I already know the bike will start when the pressure is up.

I'd be more worried about possibly frying the starter relay or fuel pump. Probably neither would happen but as I mentioned, I already know the bike will start when the pressure is up. 

Ok, you're own your own then to track down why the pressure is not consistent.

I'm not trying to be a di@k, boards like these are areas where members can share information, discuss ideas, and learn from each other. I also have the advantage of owning the bike and know all of it's upgrades, quirks, etc.

Anyway, my thought is the loss of pressure more electrical because of the inconsitency in the occurances. It builds pressure whenever it wants and the only problem happens when cranking the vehicle.

The bike builds the initial pressure as it should. In the last video the pressure is really low and just pops up for no reason and the bike starts.

Does anyone know if the ECU tells the pump to engage while the starter button is pressed? Maybe the ECU there's a sensor that's faulty and the ECU isn't allowing for the pump to engage? The ECU could be the problem but I would think the non-starting issue would occur more on a consistent basis.

If anyone can confirm exactly how the ECU controls the fuel pump I'd appreciate it. I don't know the inner workings of the ECU and may be way off.

It may be entirely a mechanical issue also so I'm willing to try other ideas. Thanks

[TT]

when the ignition switch is turned on, current from the battery flow,s to the fuel pump motor through the side stand relay and the fuel pump relay causing the motor to turn. since the ecm has a timer function, the fuel pump motor stop,s turning three seconds after the switch has been turned on. thereafter, when the crankshaft is turned by the starter motor or the engine has been started,the engine revolving signal is input to the ecm. then, current flows to the fuel pump motor from the battery through the side stand relay and the fuel pump relay so that the pump continues to function. a tip over sensor is provided in the fuel pump control circuit. by this provision, any time the motorcycle tips over, the tip over sensor sends a signal to the ecm to turn off the power to the fuel pump relay, causing the fuel pump motor to stop

[TT]

hey stepaukop check ur pm, i just sent u a message

[stepaukob]

when the ignition switch is turned on, current from the battery flow,s to the fuel pump motor through the side stand relay and the fuel pump relay causing the motor to turn. since the ecm has a timer function, the fuel pump motor stop,s turning three seconds after the switch has been turned on. thereafter, when the crankshaft is turned by the starter motor or the engine has been started,the engine revolving signal is input to the ecm. then, current flows to the fuel pump motor from the battery through the side stand relay and the fuel pump relay so that the pump continues to function. a tip over sensor is provided in the fuel pump control circuit. by this provision, any time the motorcycle tips over, the tip over sensor sends a signal to the ecm to turn off the power to the fuel pump relay, causing the fuel pump motor to stop

I will try look at the fuel relay, the kickstand relay. If you think of any sensor(s) that tells the ecm the bike is running please let me know so I can check them. I'm going to try the least expensive, easier fixes first.

[stepaukob]

I wanted to see if I was losing pressure through the fuel pump. I pressurize the line by keying on. After the pump stopped I clamped the off the fuel line right after the fuel rail. The pressure held so it appears as though the check valve in the fuel pump is working.

[Rossco]

Try running a separate power wire from your batter positive to a toggle and to teh positive terminal on the pump. Don't disconnect the current pump wire though. Add a fuse in the temporary power wire if you like to prevent burning yourself up. Apply power to the temp connection and after getting the pressure up, try starting the bike.

Have another Read of SBR's above and have a think about it.
You seem pretty certain that it's electrical, the above eliminates any relay, wiring, timer, sensor, volt drop issues.
I reckon he's got it spot on. It's as simple as running a temporary decent guage (15 amp) wire.
"TEMPORARY" to isolate problem.

[stepaukob]

Try running a separate power wire from your batter positive to a toggle and to teh positive terminal on the pump. Don't disconnect the current pump wire though. Add a fuse in the temporary power wire if you like to prevent burning yourself up. Apply power to the temp connection and after getting the pressure up, try starting the bike.

Have another Read of SBR's above and have a think about it.
You seem pretty certain that it's electrical, the above eliminates any relay, wiring, timer, sensor, volt drop issues.
I reckon he's got it spot on. It's as simple as running a temporary decent guage (15 amp) wire.
"TEMPORARY" to isolate problem.

Honestly, I don't know what's going on.

I Checked pressure throughout entire line:

After initial pressurizing by keying on I clamping after throttle fuel rail pressure holds over 40lbs.

Clamping after FMU/rising rate regulator (I also clamped the vaccuum line that goes from the TBs to FMU to take out of the equation) results in a pressure drops to around 30lbs and then holds.

With no clamp the pressure drops to 5lbs fairly quickly.

Is the FMU supposed to act like a one-way valve?



The pic below is where the stock pump used to be. This is what holds the stock pump in the tank. You can see where the fuel lines come in and out. With the turbo install you remove the pump and regulator from the tank. It's gutted. The fuel return line goes straight from the FMU to the tank with no check valve.

[TT]

when the ignition switch is turned on, current from the battery flow,s to the fuel pump motor through the side stand relay and the fuel pump relay causing the motor to turn. since the ecm has a timer function, the fuel pump motor stop,s turning three seconds after the switch has been turned on. thereafter, when the crankshaft is turned by the starter motor or the engine has been started,the engine revolving signal is input to the ecm.

THE ENGINE REVOLVING SIGNAL IS NOT GETTING BACK TO THE ECM

CHECK UR CRANK SHAFT POSITION SENSOR

[stepaukob]

when the ignition switch is turned on, current from the battery flow,s to the fuel pump motor through the side stand relay and the fuel pump relay causing the motor to turn. since the ecm has a timer function, the fuel pump motor stop,s turning three seconds after the switch has been turned on. thereafter, when the crankshaft is turned by the starter motor or the engine has been started,the engine revolving signal is input to the ecm.

THE ENGINE REVOLVING SIGNAL IS NOT GETTING BACK TO THE ECM

CHECK UR CRANK SHAFT POSITION SENSOR

Someone on another board mentioned that the fuel pressure looks ok (for a turbo setup) and also thinks it's a sensor.

I'm going to check the ckp voltages at the ecm.

I was able to verify that the pinouts at the ecm for ckp are crank (-) are white #36 and green (+) #43. The manual also states the wires are green and white. Page 7-26 states the peak volt during cranking should be +3V. I'll try both with and without PCII in play as I haven't ruled out the PCII yet.

I came across an old discussion on another board where someone wasn't happy with PCII and they were checking the ckp The problem is they would not elaborate what the issues were. The person who answered mentioned that the manual is good except that the voltage at the ecm should be measured AC, not DC (because the sensor is a coil-type). Unfortunately the thread just ended with no final outcome. This is I'm trying to work this through in case someone else comes up with the same issue.

I'll PM you the thread on the other board as I'm not sure I'm supposed to link other message boards to this one.

I'll check in a bit when I can get someone help me crank. I only have two hands and can't hold the meter and crank at the same time.

[stepaukob]

when the ignition switch is turned on, current from the battery flow,s to the fuel pump motor through the side stand relay and the fuel pump relay causing the motor to turn. since the ecm has a timer function, the fuel pump motor stop,s turning three seconds after the switch has been turned on. thereafter, when the crankshaft is turned by the starter motor or the engine has been started,the engine revolving signal is input to the ecm.

THE ENGINE REVOLVING SIGNAL IS NOT GETTING BACK TO THE ECM

CHECK UR CRANK SHAFT POSITION SENSOR

Thanks for pushing me towards electrical. I was getting away from it because more people were telling me they thought it was mechanical.

Anyway, I checked the resistance across the mentioned pins at the ECM and they were incorrect (infinite).

Next I decided to take the PCII out of the equation and as I was disconnecting the it I realized that I hadn't disconnected completely in the past (the two connectors in the pic, my bad  ).

After disconnecting the PCII entirely I had the correct ohm reading at the ecm.

I decided to key to turn try the starter button with PCII NOW disconnected. 

Now the pressure builds EVERY time I hit the starter button. I can wait 1/2 second or when pressure drops. I've tried every possible scenario and the pressure now builds whenever I hit the button. I've tried it over 20 times and I get pressure instantly. You don't know how much I appreciate this, I thought it had something to do with electrical but I didn't know exactly how the ecm worked. Now I have a little better understanding. 

So now, since the PCII is outdated anyway I'll need to replace. Any suggestions?
Does anyone know what those connectors were for, I like knowing as much as I can about my bike.