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Author Topic: Fatalities in LSR  (Read 211216 times)

Offline scott g

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Re: Fatalities in LSR
« Reply #200 on: July 30, 2015, 03:21:13 PM »
Rear wheel bearings will always be something I keep an eye on.....

The pic at the starting line may have been when things started going bad with that bearing, another 3/16" of inch outward bearing movement would have left the rear wheel somewhat unstable to say the least....

I have some guns that are NOT that deep a blue.......

Offline scott g

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Re: Fatalities in LSR
« Reply #201 on: May 05, 2016, 02:49:27 PM »
   

    Guy Caputo's crash, and Shane Stubb's "moment"
    last weekend at the Wilmington Mile brings us
    back to the vagaries of "the wind.".......

    Some motorcycles look very good in the wind tunnel:

    Stable, smooth and efficient.
    Most are less so.

    Quartering winds are a problem.

    Bikes can (as we all know) be
    "blown off course" by a strong side wind.

    A wind tunnel that can pivot the bike on the
    vertical axis will allow assessment of
    the bikes susceptibility to "yaw."

    As part of motorcycle dynamics, "yaw" is usually
    accompanied by "roll" - the bike also leans to one side.

    The Caputo bike and the Hass bike both have (had)
    extensive "flat bottoms." These go right from the
    front to the back, and are pretty wide.

    In cars, this flat bottom can be used for significant "grounds effects,"
    which allow high down-force, and "keep the car on the ground."
    Some race cars have more "down force" than the weight of the car.
    That means that they could literally drive upside down !

    How does that work out with bikes ?

*                       *                            *                        *

(Warner Riley reminds me:

SG:  I have always thought flat bottoms were bad and even
though I do not have a bike in the speed range of the fast metric bikes,
I would never run a flat bottom fairing.  There are many reasons which
you have already discussed, but when the MC gets a little out going of
"straight ahead", it begins to present a plainer surface to the wind. 

Not Good. 

I would always make the bottom of the fairing rounded. 
The fellow who died at (Bonneville) a number of years ago
with a lay down, small wheeled bike, had a flat bottom. 

He got sideways due to a failed rear tire and as the bike
presented itself to the oncoming air, the whole
bike took flight with a deadly outcome.  Warner)

Digression:  Warner Riley was the first Harley over 200 mph.
He also spent 40 years investigating motorcycle accidents and
testifying about that in courts of law. 

He was at Loring when Bill had "The Crash." 

I was the first "conventional motorcycle " over 200 mph,
and also made my living for 40 years as a motorcycle
Traffic Homocide investigator and expert witness)

*                   *                *               *              *
    The Caputo and Hass bikes are also pretty tall, and both have
    (had) a lot of "vertical side area" that is part of the "flat bottom" design.

    The "vertical side area" makes the bike much more susceptible
    to side winds - and that results in more yaw and roll.

    When the bike rolls (leans), the flat bottom is higher on one side than the other.

    That happens with race cars too, but there is a significant difference:
    The car might be 5 feet wide, and might tilt one inch, a 1- 60 ratio.

    The bike, on the other hand, might be
    20 inches wide and "tilt" two inches, or a 1-10 ratio

    Cars are very careful about how they allow air to "spill out"
    from underneath, since they do not not want more down force
    on one side than the other, and thus upset the suspension.

    "Skirts" and tunnels are used to assist control of the air.

    The bikes we are talking about here have no skirts or tunnels,
    and so very little control of "spillage."

    If these (potentially 300 mph) bikes are generating significant downforce,
    and that is lost - suddenly - in a gust of side wind, what happens to
    the downforce and the bike stability ?

    Does the sudden loss of downforce also
    suddenly "lift" the bike off it's tires ?

    Does (because of the roll) the bike get "thrown sideways ?

    EVERY very-fast sit-on LSR bike (with a fairing)
    so far has had a round bottom.

    Is there a reason for that ?



       

Offline Coryonbusa

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Re: Fatalities in LSR
« Reply #202 on: May 05, 2016, 08:43:50 PM »
Great point. Never thought of that.

Offline scott g

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Re: Fatalities in LSR
« Reply #203 on: May 05, 2016, 09:41:38 PM »
Great point.

Never thought of that.

It's what you DON'T know
that you DON'T know that
gets you in the end.....!...

Offline Coryonbusa

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Re: Fatalities in LSR
« Reply #204 on: May 06, 2016, 05:15:10 AM »
So true.

Offline FlaminRoo

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Re: Fatalities in LSR
« Reply #205 on: May 08, 2016, 01:38:34 AM »
Do these "Flat Bottom" bikes have suspenshion ??, I'm thinking that with the irreglarties(spelling) in the tarmac tracks this would cause "pulseing" which would mitigate any advantage of precieved suction,,,
First Australian to ride a motorcycle 200mph at Bonneville,,

Offline scott g

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Re: Fatalities in LSR
« Reply #206 on: June 05, 2016, 08:13:41 PM »
On Friday, Luis Salom died in Spain in a Moto2 Grand Prix race.

Yes, this is an LSR thread, but the Salom tragedy speaks to us, too.......

This is NOT a particularly good video, but at present, it is all we have.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a_a9BLzTw_U

Leading up to the high-speed crash, there was no reported contact
with other riders,  unusual situations that we know of yet, and the
crash happened on a straight portion of the track.

There is speculation that Salom - a highly experienced rider at the world
level in roadracing, just "got a little too much front brake," and the front
end "washed out from under him."

The video shows the bike sliding, mostly on it's side,
in a straight line down the straightaway and into the "AIR-FENCE"

The Bike hits (and deflates) the air fence,
and rebounds back toward Salom.

Salom then slides straight ahead (maybe head first)
into the bike and then the air fence, now deflated.

Shown is the bike rising into the air pushed by the force of Salom's impact.

The cause of death was Salom's impact(s).

The cause of the crash has as yet not been determined.

So, what is the connection to LSR ?

Well, most LSR is trying to attain high speeds on straightaway tracks,
and then safely slowing to suitable reduced speeds.

So, what's hard about that ?

Well, it was a contributing factor to the two deaths at Maxton,
at least one death at Wilmington, and two almost-fatal crashes at Beeville.

That is a big deal !

Imagine that for some reason a rider, at a not-unusual speed of 230 MPH
"misses" the finish line at Wilmington, and hits the brakes too late.  The rider
in a little bit of a panic, gets a little too much front brake,
and puts the bike - and himself -  down.

The rider now has NO control over EITHER his speed or his direction.

Suppose that there are some BIG pieces airfield equipment in the
run off area at Wilmington, and the rider - like Salom - rams head first
into those posts.

(Use Google Earth , look for Wilmington OH Airpark, and inspect the shut-down area....)

Even at very slow speeds, the momentum of the body
"pushes" the head harder into the impact.

Is death does not come instantly,
it is easy to imagine a broken spinal nerve
in the cervical (neck) area; thus leading
to partial or total paralysis.

So yes, Salom speaks to us, too !


Offline scott g

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Re: Fatalities in LSR
« Reply #207 on: June 06, 2016, 10:39:45 AM »
We now, on the Monday following the
Spanish MotoGP race, have more useful information.

The race team of Salom was able to recover the data from the crashed bike,
and provide a surprisingly detailed understanding of the circumstances of the crash. 

A big part of that understanding was from the "where am I" feature of the data,
that allows the bike to "know" where it is on the track. Much of the same information
would have been available from a bystander taking HD films of the incident,
but is such a film has been made, it has not turned up.


"During the course of the FP2, Luis Salom faced his first laps
and makes his best lap (1’48.608) before making his first pit stop
to change the rear tire of the bike.

After that, Salom comes back on the track and during that same
out of the pits lap he suffers the accident. In that lap, Luis arrived
to the turn 12 braking reference point 6 km/h slower than his fastest lap,
according to the telemetry that was because a
lower acceleration at the exit of turn 11.

Due to that reduced speed, Luis operated the brakes 9 meters
later to maintain a proper corner speed at the turn 12.

At the entry of the corner there is an irregularity
on the asphalt known by all the riders (bump).

The delay of the braking instant made Luis to maintain
the brakes operated running over that asphalt irregularity,
as opposed the previous laps where he already had released
the brakes on that spot.

All of that added to an even speed than his best lap of the FP2
produced a stress on the front tire and a grip lost on
the irregularity of the asphalt.

That grip lost produced the crash
with the tragic outcome that we all know."



The team report is available at:
https://motomatters.com/press_release/2016/06/06/sag_team_press_release_telemetry.html



Offline scott g

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Re: Fatalities in LSR
« Reply #208 on: June 06, 2016, 10:44:25 AM »

For those of us who follow LSR accidents, Salom's crash is remarkably
like the crashes of Karl Gunter and Bill Warner at Beeville TX,
where both men rode superbly, but almost died while crashing under braking. 

You will remember that Karl and Bill began their individual crashes
within a few feet of each other, while approaching
the shut-down area from far different speeds.

Same problem.
Same result.

This highlights that, as with
most of the fatal accidents in LSR,
the problem is not the going fast,
it is the slowing down that may kill.


Offline scott g

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Re: Fatalities in LSR
« Reply #209 on: June 06, 2016, 11:25:33 AM »
A rider came to me and asked about “stopping” at Wilmington.

Of all the LSR tracks in the USA, Wilmington is perhaps
the most problematic, due is parts to the uneven racing surface,
the lack of shut-down, and the solid objects in the run-off area.

So the question was a good one, and very instructive !

From the Wilmington start line to the end
of the paved runway is about 8600 feet.

Take away 5,280 for the measured mile,
and that leaves 3,320 feet to brake
before leaving the runway.

How about stopping from 275 mph ?

A skilled roadracer, like Shane Stubbs could
probably decelerate at a rate of 1.1g over that distance,
but with no “margin of error.”

A decal of 1.1 from 275 mph is a “brake to stop”
distance of about 2300 feet.

SAFE, by almost 1,000 feet……………

HOWEVER:


Let’s assume that even a skilled rider like Shane
can’t get to that full 1.1g for about 1.5 seconds after
the finish line BECAUSE, he has to “transition”
from hard acceleration to hard deceleration,
AND use his skill (which takes time) to
GRADUALLY come up on “full braking.”

1.5 seconds is about 600 feet at 275 mph.

That 1.5 seconds has reduced that “safe distance”
to only about 400 feet, which goes by mighty fast at 200 mph.

Let’s also assume that maybe Shane has a “moment”
that causes him to have to “release” the brakes for
maybe 1.5 seconds, just as he begins his hard deceleration. 

At 275 mph that distance is again about 600 feet.

Let’s also assume that Shane, with at least part of his
mind on his growing family, decided to not use a “full panic”
stopping mode, and decelerated at “only” 1.0g

(Which, incidentally, is far more than most
untrained riders EVER achieve)

Shane’s braking distance is now extended from
about 2,300 feet to more than 2,500 feet.

Suddenly, Shane has run out of room, having “consumed”
1,200 feet with “transitioning,” and 2,500 feet braking.

Needing 3,700 feet to stop, and having only 3,300 to do
it, Shane runs off the end of the track 400 feet short
of a stop at about 110 mph.

It has happened there.

Several people lived,
at least one survived the crash,
and one died hitting
an obstruction in shutdown.

Skill in STOPPING is again the answer......

Offline scott g

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Re: Fatalities in LSR
« Reply #210 on: June 14, 2016, 05:22:02 PM »
Although I have touched on it other places,
this might be a good time and place
to review fairings and speed.

http://i31.photobucket.com/albums/c388/tricktom1/207281_10150155528869228_556669227_6427018_1330733_n.jpg

This is the fairing mounted to a turbo Hayabusa
that ran at Mojave a few years ago, but had an unfortunate crash,
and did not record a particularly high speed. 

The cause of the crash was never conclusively announced.

One suspects that of all the "sit-on" turbo Hayabusas running,
this fairing may have had the lowest CdA (air resistance)
and thus the highest speed potential with the same horsepower as other bikes:

The fairing has a good aerodynamic design in terms
of "parting" the air, and "bringing it back together."

The bike is low (NOT tall), and so is less prone to upset by side winds.

The bike is low to the ground, also helping with side winds.

This bike, it could be ridden in perfect weather on a perfect track,
would have true 320mph potential......

http://i31.photobucket.com/albums/c388/tricktom1/215167_10150155529149228_556669227_6427022_7740762_n.jpg

Hard to tell if the bottom is "very flat."

If this aero design has potential problems, they might be in three main areas:

1)  It sure looks like the front of the fairing, which covers the front wheel,
moves the Cp or "center of pressure" well forward of the "Cg" or center of gravity, 
and that would VASTLY increase the negative effects of side winds,
perhaps to the point of instability and a crash.

2)  The "low to the ground" mounting of the fairing would increase that,
if the bike "leaned into the wind," that the fairing would contact the ground,
de-stabilize the bike, and make "recovery" problematic.

3)  If there is any substantial "down force" from the front of the bike,
and if the suspension in the front is "soft enough," the high-speed-wind
of a 300 mph run count force the fairing into the ground,
and cause the bike to not respond to steering input.

Learn by doing................


Offline scott g

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Re: Fatalities in LSR
« Reply #211 on: June 14, 2016, 05:28:54 PM »
This bike has successfully run perhaps 285 mph at Bonneville,
without using all the available track, and thus more speed.

https://encrypted-tbn3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSuzjqYRMGbkUxYqjSNyT4yCYYKoXEHnEfgwe1fZ3c_jEfHJ3ipKA

The bike shows some good aerodynamic work,
and the 285 mph speed is pretty good for a 1000cc bike.

The CP should be properly BEHIND the Cg,
and the bike should be pretty stable

With the additional horsepower (maybe 200) of a full 1,350cc engine,
this bike might have almost the high-speed potential of the first bike,
but without many of the possible handling problems.

Top speed potential, 310-320 mph

Offline scott g

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Re: Fatalities in LSR
« Reply #212 on: June 14, 2016, 05:44:06 PM »
BILL WARNER

Bill brought a great intellect, and a great drive to the sport,
and his speeds are better than others........there are
questions if his significant records will EVER be broken.

His greatest personal efforts went into his aerodynamics.

Here is a RARE shot of bill's bike at speed, and from ground level.

http://guardianlv.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/07/o-BILL-WARNER-DEAD-facebook-650x432.jpg

Notice:

The "tail-down" bias created by suspension and HUGE horsepower.

Notice also the "quite flat" underside of the fairing
a design feature Bill had avoided in previous designs.

http://graphics8.nytimes.com/images/2013/07/15/automobiles/wheels/bill-warner-motorcycle-crash/bill-warner-motorcycle-crash-blog480.jpg

Is there "lift " on the front end due to the power of the engine ?

On Bill's "fatal run," the bike was accelerating harder then ever before,
and was probably over 300 mph BEFORE the measured mile.

Could the power of the bike have "lifted" the bike enough that the
front tire lost contact with the ground ?

Was the area of the front of the fairing so great that the bike, when "lifted,"
made the bike highly susceptible to side winds ?

The bike probably knows, but
the data has never been unloaded..........



Offline scott g

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Re: Fatalities in LSR
« Reply #213 on: June 14, 2016, 06:01:14 PM »
GUY CAPUTO

Guy put a tremendous effort into his current race bike,
and it shows in this picture:

http://www.suzukihayabusa.org/tiger.gif

Notice the similarity to the first ("Mojave") bike.

http://i31.photobucket.com/albums/c388/tricktom1/207281_10150155528869228_556669227_6427018_1330733_n.jpg

Much of the fairing work was from the same manufacturer.

On Guy's bike, the front wheel is visible,
probably because that track's rules required it to be so.
(Remember to add the area of the fender into the
"area" of the front)

Otherwise the aero is pretty similar.

Guy's bike has a VERY pronounced flat bottom.

What caused Guy's crash ?

Flat bottom ?

Cp vs Cg problems ?

Side wind ?

Combination ?




Offline scott g

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Re: Fatalities in LSR
« Reply #214 on: June 14, 2016, 06:10:45 PM »
Are we actually making improvements ?

Here is a great shot of Guy on his previous bike:

http://www.dragbike.com/dbnews/articlefiles/082610b.jpg

GREAT tuck ! 

Guy KNOWS how to hide from the wind,
and how to ride fast !

The front fairing is VERY stock.

The front fender is Guy's own design, as is the
"under-tray" under the swing-arm. 

The seat fairing is largely stock, but slightly extended.

Overall, the bike looks very stock, and that setup has
been shown by thousands of runs to be stable over
200 mph. 

Guys bike in this photo shows lower "front-side" area,
and so probably better stability at speed.

Overall, the bike has less 'side area,
and so helping with control in side winds.

One suspects that the preceding designs offer higher
potential speeds, but is the "risk" worth it ?

Offline RansomT

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Re: Fatalities in LSR
« Reply #215 on: June 14, 2016, 09:34:34 PM »
Scott, you have shared a lot of invaluable information in these post.  Surprisingly, some of the same information I have discussed in depth with others in the past few weeks. After reflection, I do have some more information and comments especially about Guy's crash. Just my observations:

My 244 mph run was 18 minutes before Guy's and 34 minutes after Shane's run.  The wind was definitely a factor.  The NOAA office at the track reported E winds at 7-10 mph during this time gusting to 17.  Since we run at Wilmington NE to SW, the "reported" wind direction was a crossing tail.  When I was at the start line, the wind was blowing about 30 degrees to left of a true tailwind.  During the run, I could feel the left push, but for me it wasn't bad.  As I dropped over the hill (which is the 1/2 mile point) the left push became heavier.  At approximately 3/4 mile the push got hard enough that I had to lean outside of the airstream to keep the bike straight, but as I shifted into 6th, the left push went away and I concentrated on keep everything smooth and straight through the traps.  Unfortunately, my on board camera decided to not record the run until I was turning out.  However, it did give me a glimpse via the flags of the wind direction, it looked to be about 15 degrees left of a true tailwind.

I drove straight back to the line to do another run after picking up my timing slip.  Guy was suited and "on deck" to run.  I relayed the information about the 3/4 mile situation to him and told him to be careful.

Now, backing up to the day before.....I witnessed Guy turn almost 90 degrees on the track at speed (around 1/4 mile) when he was hit by crosswind gust.  Afterwards, I talked with him and help take pictures of the scrapes the fairings suffered.  It looked to me that when the bike was hit by a crosswind the bottom of the bike tried to come out from under the bike.  The crosswind blew from the right side and the bike leaned right trying to drive into the wind.  Of course this is OPPOSITE of what a street bike does.  To correct this issue on Guy's bike, you would have to lean away from the wind to get the bottom of the bike back under you and THEN gradually lean toward the wind to get the bike back on the track.  Guy actually put his foot down and up-righted the bike then leaned it into the wind to stay on course, scared him pretty bad.

And sense we are sharing pictures: Here is a snapshot of my bike at the start.   It's taken as I was leaving the line, still slipping the clutch and my left foot is in the process of getting behind the fairing.  No tight tuck, yet.

http://www.brocksperformance.com/brocknm/articlefiles/16-0503-ecta-ransom-holbrook-02.jpg
« Last Edit: June 14, 2016, 11:03:42 PM by RansomT »
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Offline FlaminRoo

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Re: Fatalities in LSR
« Reply #216 on: June 21, 2016, 06:51:15 PM »
What I see in the shot of Bill at speed, is the "bunching" of his leathers in the shoulder/hump area,  :(

Also, in reply #201, the fellow killed at Bonneville in the "laydown, small tired, flat bottem" was riding a fully enclosed "Streamliner", it did not "take off", it rolled violently quiet a number of times ,, I witnessed the complete incident,,

 
« Last Edit: June 22, 2016, 04:17:15 PM by FlaminRoo »
First Australian to ride a motorcycle 200mph at Bonneville,,

Offline AlterEgo

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Re: Fatalities in LSR
« Reply #217 on: June 30, 2016, 02:32:27 PM »
Thanks Scott, Great write up and analysis.
I am my own AlterEgo

Offline AlterEgo

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Re: Fatalities in LSR
« Reply #218 on: June 30, 2016, 02:40:53 PM »
Not sure if the Rider mentioned was Cliff Gullett or not, but Cliff in the stream liner had a rear  tire come apart, and went sideways, he did go air-born then rolled violently.  I was on the starting line and saw the whole thing. I would say he went 20 ft up.

What I see in the shot of Bill at speed, is the "bunching" of his leathers in the shoulder/hump area,  :(

Also, in reply #201, the fellow killed at Bonneville in the "laydown, small tired, flat bottem" was riding a fully enclosed "Streamliner", it did not "take off", it rolled violently quiet a number of times ,, I witnessed the complete incident,,

 
I am my own AlterEgo

Offline scott g

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Re: Fatalities in LSR
« Reply #219 on: June 30, 2016, 02:52:44 PM »
What I see in the shot of Bill at speed, is the "bunching" of his leathers in the shoulder/hump area,  :(

Also, in reply #201, the fellow killed at Bonneville in the "laydown, small tired, flat bottem" was riding a fully enclosed "Streamliner", it did not "take off", it rolled violently quiet a number of times ,, I witnessed the complete incident,,


 

Thanks for an "eye witness" report.

That I know of, the cause of the accident has never
been discussed in public, and the causes outlined.

My understanding from 2nd hand descriptions,
it that a tyre deflated, and the bike went sideways.

There are reports that the bike may have "pole vaulted,"
or gone front over back, and then started rolling on it's side.

The bike then rolled numerous times on it's side like
rolling a pencil on a desk (called 'pencil rolling')

So far, the rider / driver was OK.

After part of the body / belly pan came adrift,
the rider's arm was partially or fully severed,
and the rider exsanguinated (bled) to death.

Probably preventable by better
vehicle design or production.

Offline FlaminRoo

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Re: Fatalities in LSR
« Reply #220 on: June 30, 2016, 04:00:42 PM »
Viewed from the startline , given that the 'liner was approx. 20' long, it could appear that it went that high into the air,, I witnessed the event  from the pits adjacent to where it happened on course,, regardless, it was/is a tragic event,, I lost my desire to ride a Streamliner right then and there,,
First Australian to ride a motorcycle 200mph at Bonneville,,

Offline scott g

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Re: Fatalities in LSR
« Reply #221 on: June 30, 2016, 04:55:45 PM »
Viewed from the startline , given that the 'liner was approx. 20' long, it could appear that it went that high into the air,, I witnessed the event  from the pits adjacent to where it happened on course,, regardless, it was/is a tragic event,, I lost my desire to ride a Streamliner right then and there,,

I have driven a streamliner 258 mph,
and now that it is over, I never want
to do it again !

By my calculations, streamliners have the
highest "Death rate per mile driven"
of any vehicle on earth.

NO room for error..........

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Offline sgvridgerunner

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Re: Fatalities in LSR
« Reply #223 on: September 04, 2016, 01:27:25 PM »
Catching up on my reading here in the LSR forums (been playing "new dad" for the past month), and one thing that I noticed is that it's been over a month and no one has mentioned Sam Wheeler in this post yet.

I didn't know Sam, so I am unqualified to write anything about him or about the details of the incident, but maybe someone on here would like to.

If I'm stepping on someone's toes or bringing up a sore subject, then please let me know. If there's a reason why nothing's been mentioned, then I am truly ignorant to it. All I know from what I've read so far is that he was a pioneer of our sport and a great engineer.

RIP Sam Wheeler #999 (25 July, 2016)

-Dave
2000 Hayabusa (1350 record setting APS LSR bike)
2004 Hayabusa (4X 1350 Modified records/ trackday bike)
2006 Hayabusa (touring bike)
2000 Hayabusa (Big block Altered drag bike)
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Offline scott g

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Re: Fatalities in LSR
« Reply #224 on: September 27, 2016, 10:52:26 AM »
As the 2016 Land Speed Racing season draws close
to a productive season, there are still questions about
three crashes, one fatal, one almost-fatal, and one near fatal.

These crashes are very disappointing, but in a small way, reassuring.

Disappointing in that there has been a death,
and reassuring that two of the three survived.

The death was of beloved racer SAM WHEELER,
star of the Bonneville film "WORLD'S FASTEST MOTORCYCLE."
Sam drove the "Green bike" in the 2006
2-hour classic narrated by Dave Despain.

Another crashes were by Guy Caputo, a long-time bike racer,
small businessman, and the designer and builder of his own
motorcycle, intended to reach far over 250mph.

The final "participant" is the popular BRENDA SUE CARVER,
a talented grandmother from Texas, who was competing
at LORING AFB in Maine this month.

The three accidents have a surprising amount in common,
even though they were at three (3) different tracks,
on three(3) widely differing types of motorcycle,
and at speeds ranging from under 140mph to as high as 250mph.