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Author Topic: Fatalities in LSR  (Read 41776 times)

Offline entropy

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Re: Fatalities in LSR
« Reply #25 on: November 09, 2012, 04:43:29 PM »
As most everyone knows, two years ago I  crashed at Bonneville at around 210mph. On the previous run I experienced a serious lean on the bike. i did not know what caused it, made a couple of small chassis adjustments. On the next run the bike was leaning severly to the right. A crosswind gust hit me and I went down. I was lucky and was hardly hurt, walked away. I now know that I HAD MADE A SERIOUS ERROR IN MY BODY WORK. Sorry for yelling! The thing is I ignored the symptoms on the second run. Stupid me. I have occasionally experienced handling problems since, as soon as I see something is wrong I shut it down, come to the pits and work on the problem. I have learned, the hard way, descretion is the better part of valor.

Fred,
Excellent post! :thumb:
Often wrong, but never unsure!!!!!

Offline Jonny Hotnuts

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Re: Fatalities in LSR
« Reply #26 on: November 09, 2012, 06:07:06 PM »
Quote
The thing is I ignored the symptoms on the second run. Stupid me. I have occasionally experienced handling problems since, as soon as I see something is wrong I shut it down,

I made a run and had some weird sounds happening. I said 'f-it' and decided to make another run. Rod went through the case, filling the car with smoke and had to open my door at 70mph+ because I couldnt see where I was going and THOUGHT I was headed in the pits at 200!

Just a 'me too' in the lessons learned in life. Dont run it unless its right!!!

BTW:

Happy late B-day FV!!!!

~JH
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Busa pwrd Bonneville car 208 mph+
2X world record holder
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Fastest 1.5L NA door slammer in the world

Offline fvance

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Re: Fatalities in LSR
« Reply #27 on: November 09, 2012, 06:55:55 PM »
Thanks JH, also thanks to everybody for the Bday wishes on FB. :tu: :bike:
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Online Oz Booster

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Re: Fatalities in LSR
« Reply #28 on: November 09, 2012, 07:15:13 PM »
Happy BD Fred  :D

It doesn't take much to upset the handling on the salt
i have had a run or 2 where i was sure it was going to hurt
go back make some changes and try again, but you never know untill your out there if its working or not

my 2011 consisted of turnouts,  (with major changes made in the off season )and not any runs i wanted to complete
then 2012 started similar on the 750, but a 5mm spacer on the rhs lower fairing mount and some zigzag tape near the handlebar fill ins turned it into the sweet handling bike we had previously , just a minor lack of symetry.... it went from a bike that was uncomfortable at near 200 to a bike that ran like it was on rails to 238mph
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Offline FlaminRoo

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Re: Fatalities in LSR
« Reply #29 on: November 09, 2012, 11:12:30 PM »
i harker back to my previous post on the different venues that we compete at these days,, most (if not all) tarmac venues are held over a weekend, the pressure is on "to get 'er done",, however at Bonneville with four plus day events, if one experiences problems you can shut it down, knowing that you have time to come back out and have another shot, :), (as a event progresses at B'ville the stageing lanes become shorter)
« Last Edit: November 09, 2012, 11:14:26 PM by FlaminRoo »
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Offline joea

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Re: Fatalities in LSR
« Reply #30 on: November 10, 2012, 03:41:30 PM »
roo...i assure you the pressure can be on at any venue...

length of event can mean didly, when the event is almost over...etc..

ie one could look at the tarmac tracks and think...well i only need to make a one
way pass over the 132 ft timing trap for a record... that could go either way on the pressure
one puts on oneself...

ie on the salt...lets say you qualified after 10 yrs year of trying/attempts..at the last race of current year, then
after sleeping on it all night, you get up for the last morning of return runs after 3 miles getting up to speed, then 3/4 thru
of the timed mile you get some omninous handling..engine performance etc...you push it abit trying to get to end of the lights...

ANY venue is dangerous...

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Offline FlaminRoo

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Re: Fatalities in LSR
« Reply #31 on: November 10, 2012, 05:37:18 PM »
gotta sorta agree with ya Joe, but, as you say, in the longer duration events  extra pressure can be there at the end of the meet, sure, "at the end of the event",,, however, at the weekend gigs the pressure is right from the get go thru to the end,, a not so experienced competitor maybe feels that he has to get it done, therefor may tend to try and ride out a problem, some do some dont,, :),,
First Australian to ride a motorcycle 200mph at Bonneville,,

Offline zrxdean

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Re: Fatalities in LSR
« Reply #32 on: November 15, 2012, 10:46:18 AM »
Anyone ever consider an airbag-equipped set of leathers?

http://www.dainese.com/us_en/d-air/

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mo9Vlt5tGwY

Offline Team Millholland

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Re: Fatalities in LSR
« Reply #33 on: November 15, 2012, 11:26:29 AM »
I agree about the hurrying thing & we learned from it....

About 10 years ago my youngest son was trying to break 200 on a ZX9R, been fighting gremlins all week-end. Finally at the end of the day on Sunday we basically had the track to ourselves at Maxton and he was hot-lapping trying little things. Back then the long shutdown was basically a pig trail and we were using it instead of the short shutdown to save our rotors, we run streetbikes & were trying to make them last.
He pulled up to the line and thankfully the starter went around kicking his tires and found the rear one low, had a nail in it!

We KNEW to check tires between passes but in our haste we didn't. If there had not been a good, dedicated starter things could have gotten ugly.

Karl told me a year ago at Texas we have to start watching out for each other too & I agree.

Dan

Offline JHerheim

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Re: Fatalities in LSR
« Reply #34 on: November 18, 2012, 02:21:24 PM »
Anyone ever consider an airbag-equipped set of leathers?

http://www.dainese.com/us_en/d-air/

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mo9Vlt5tGwY

I've been seriously considering it.   I'm waiting the A*'s stuff to hit state side.    I've done approximately 20 track days a year for the last couple.  And I intend to keep that going and get back to an LSR event. 

Right now the $5k price tag seems steep but I'm sure those who've suffered injury would gladly trade $5000 for less damage to themselves.


Pending the GPS logging function,  that could push me over the edge.
« Last Edit: November 18, 2012, 02:33:40 PM by JHerheim »

Offline Wolf1397

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Re: Fatalities in LSR
« Reply #35 on: November 19, 2012, 03:36:51 AM »
I agree about the hurrying thing & we learned from it....

Karl told me a year ago at Texas we have to start watching out for each other too & I agree.

Dan

I agree Dan. During the inaugural event at Loring, a very fast rider was getting ready to leave on a pass with the side stand down. I was a spectator but walked across the starting line and pointed to the left side of the motorcycle. That caught the crew chief's attention and he corrected the problem.

Offline rustman

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Re: Fatalities in LSR
« Reply #36 on: November 25, 2012, 01:58:41 AM »
I know this isn't news, but looking at Bill's onboard again, it seems clear cut to me that he lost the front end when he transitioned from concrete to fresh asphalt.  You can see the shine on the tar.  The coefficient of friction allowable to maintain traction would suddenly be lower as soon as you crossed the threshold onto the asphalt.  The amount of lever pressure would need to change on transition "if" your were at the limits of what the asphalt would allow when you crossed onto it.

I lost the front end on my crash on concrete at the Goliad track.  I have less of an excuse for that, but I do know that I had been doing it for a while, riding for decades, and did nothing different to my knowledge, and yet I went down.  There could have been something on the track that caused a slip.  I doubt it, but I'll never know.  These both are different from what happened to Dave, as far as I know.  I assume he wasn't sliding off the end of the track.  It's his crash that really scares me.  I have no idea how it could have happened, given the limited information that I have had.  That's fine.  There is a fine line between tasteful and curious.  I'd rather not cross it.
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Offline entropy

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Re: Fatalities in LSR
« Reply #37 on: November 25, 2012, 12:54:33 PM »
....  There is a fine line between tasteful and curious.  I'd rather not cross it.

Russ, i do NOT think there is a fine line between tasteful and curious. 
They are 2 completely different subjects.

Think of airline crashes.
EVERY last detail is studied until the investigators conclude what caused the accident, all to prevent future accidents.

LSR-ers should insist that accident causes, whatever is known, become public knowledge.
This is not "curiosity", it is self preservation.
karl
Often wrong, but never unsure!!!!!

Offline ktw88q

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Re: Re: Fatalities in LSR
« Reply #38 on: November 25, 2012, 06:37:51 PM »
....  There is a fine line between tasteful and curious.  I'd rather not cross it.

Russ, i do NOT think there is a fine line between tasteful and curious. 
They are 2 completely different subjects.

Think of airline crashes.
EVERY last detail is studied until the investigators conclude what caused the accident, all to prevent future accidents.

LSR-ers should insist that accident causes, whatever is known, become public knowledge.
This is not "curiosity", it is self preservation.
karl
I agree with this...

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Offline rustman

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Re: Fatalities in LSR
« Reply #39 on: November 25, 2012, 07:50:50 PM »
I think you guys are right. We're not being morbid here and rubbernecking at a car crash. Perhaps someone who was at maxton might at least speculate here asto what happened to Dave. My gut tells me that Dave would approve.
Yeah, it made 500 hp at 32 psi.
233 mph Texas Mile
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Offline Team Millholland

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Re: Fatalities in LSR
« Reply #40 on: November 25, 2012, 08:04:31 PM »
Rustman,

PM sent,
Dan

Offline rustman

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Re: Fatalities in LSR
« Reply #41 on: November 25, 2012, 10:01:18 PM »
Thanks Dan. I enjoyed talking with you and appreciate your theory as to what might have happened. I might discuss it in person with fellow racers that I know, but I think I'll refrain from pushing it here. We'll never know for certain. I will say that no theory that I've heard, nor my own reflects badly on Dave. 
Likewise, I don't mean to brush over the others to whom this thread refers. It's tragic in each case.
Yeah, it made 500 hp at 32 psi.
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Offline TrickTom1

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Re: Fatalities in LSR
« Reply #42 on: November 26, 2012, 07:35:40 PM »
This is a good an constructive thread, IMHO. That being said, I think that there are MANY that have been lucky, including myself, and wish all the rookies were given a riding lesson before being allowed on the track.

I didn't not always think this way...

Offline scott g

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Re: Fatalities in LSR
« Reply #43 on: February 11, 2013, 12:57:34 PM »
This is a good piece on Ron Cook's
 two accidents at El Mirage in about 1998.

You will see that this crash is a WEAVE (rear wheel)
and NOT a wobble (front wheel)

A)  It is unusual for a motorcycle to have a violent,
crash inducing "weave."

B)  it is very unusual to have the crash video taped.

C)  It is highly unusual to the same rider to have
the "same" crash on the "same" bike.

D  I believe that this is the ONLY video of the same rider,
on the same bike having the same crash - only
2 weeks apart - and having it video taped.....

Don't need to do much reconstruction here,
the tape shows it all !

This video runs a while - but it is worth every minute !


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XTfKJFrUi9w


By the way, it is easy to "reconstruct" Ron's speed
when he starts sliding on the dirt.

1)  The narator reports 588 feet of sliding.

2)  The bike can be seen (and heard) making
substantial deceleration after passing
 through the exit of the traps.

3)  Studies of pedestrians sliding on dirt after impact
 from a car suggest that a "drag factor"
of about 1.3 is appropriate for this crash to calculate speed.

3)  Speed is calculated by using the standard formula of
 Speed = square root of 30 x drag factor x distance sliding,
or S = square root of 30 x 1.3 x 588, S = 151 MPH.

So, Ron had some pretty healthy deceleration
BEFORE he started sliding.

Probably saved his life !

Offline fvance

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Re: Fatalities in LSR
« Reply #44 on: February 11, 2013, 01:24:55 PM »
Wasn't the first crash at Muroc and the .second at El Mirage?
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Offline scott g

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Re: Fatalities in LSR
« Reply #45 on: February 11, 2013, 01:36:10 PM »
Fred:

You are probably correct,
since the crashes
were only 2 weeks
apart.

Scott

Offline scott g

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Re: Fatalities in LSR
« Reply #46 on: February 11, 2013, 01:38:02 PM »
Some of you will recall Jason McVicar's
horrible Bonneville crash of a few years
ago, in August.

Jason was riding my bike.

I was an eye witness, and was
the first "Civilian" to Jason after
the crash........

Bonneville Crash Interview with Jason McVicar - YouTube

We can see Jason was "high sided" forward
of the crashing bike.  Jason was projected
almost horizontally from the saddle.

Using a standard formula,
we can calculate the time for jason
to fall to the salt surface from his
center-of-gravity's height of 36 inches.

The time would be about  0.43 sec.s

The debris field
( I investigated this accident)
was about 1,800 feet long.

Assuming Jason starts ejection
when the blown-tyre debris appears,
than the whole of Jason's VERY high
speed is lost in the 1800 feet of the crash.

Jason reports the "Bang" of the exploding
tyre happens when he is traveling
"only in the mid 240's"

The bike "spins" anti-clockwise for
about 100 feet, and then ejects
Jason into the air.

Jason, whatt falling 3 feet to the salt,
travels about 150 feet down the track.

If Jason slides on the Salt with the
same coefficient of drag as Ron Wood
slid at El Mirage, than his speed ca
 be calculated in the same way:

1)  S = square root of 30 x 1.3 x 1550 feet
(1800 - 100 - 150 = 1550)

 2)  S= sq root of 60,450

3)  S = 245 MPH

Offline fvance

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Re: Fatalities in LSR
« Reply #47 on: February 11, 2013, 01:53:54 PM »
When I went down at Bonneville, My speed at the 2 mile was 208. I went down just  past the 2mi. I was lucky and came off the bike immediately. The bike never tumbled and slid through the lights at the 21/4 at 168. I slid right up to within a foot from the 21/4 lights. Walked away, lost about a pound of ass. :hys:
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Offline fvance

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Re: Fatalities in LSR
« Reply #48 on: February 11, 2013, 02:27:19 PM »
And by the way I consider Jason and myself two very lucky guys.
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Offline scott g

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Re: Fatalities in LSR
« Reply #49 on: February 11, 2013, 05:04:17 PM »
When I went down at Bonneville, My speed at the 2 mile was 208. I
went down just  past the 2mi. I was lucky and came off the bike immediately.

The bike never tumbled and slid through the lights at the 21/4 at 168.
I slid right up to within a foot from the 21/4 lights.
Walked away, lost about a pound of ass. :hys:

Fred:  Assume you lost very little speed getting off,
but it took 250 feet to make that decision and to
"hit the salt."

Speed = S = 1280 - 250 = 1030 feet sliding.

s + Sq rt of 30 x 1.3 x 1030 = 200 MPH.

Bike usually is less than 1/2 the drag
of a leathers clad human. = about 0.60

168 --> 0 @ f=0.60 about = 1,568 feet.

subtract about feet for the bike to fall on it's side: 450 ft
(after all, it's not immediate)
(see the other films of motorcycle wobbles)

(@ 208 MPH, 450 feet takes 1.5 seconds)

1280 - 450 = 830 feet

add 830 to 1,568 = 2,398 feet overall feet of sliding @ 0.60
Speed of bike = sq rt of 2,398 x 30 c 0.60 =  sq root of4,316

Intiial speed of bike about =  207.76 MPH

No magic, just science.

Scott