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Author Topic: Fatalities in LSR  (Read 41775 times)

Offline fvance

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Re: Fatalities in LSR
« Reply #50 on: February 11, 2013, 05:18:41 PM »
Yeah I got all of that, not. :hys: I came off the bike as it was going down, or right as it hit the salt. No warning, other than extreme lean, :mrgreen:
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Offline entropy

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Re: Fatalities in LSR
« Reply #51 on: February 14, 2013, 06:45:19 AM »
Yeah I got all of that, not. :hys: I came off the bike as it was going down, or right as it hit the salt. No warning, other than extreme lean, :mrgreen:

Fred,
you have balls the size of [put your favorite huge thing in here]. 
With the uneven friction and bumpiness of the salt, i wouldn't want to be leaned over at WOT at all.  :shudder

I am a pussy, me.  And crashing when you are on the North side of 60 YO has different results than when you are young and flexible.

karl
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Offline fvance

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Re: Fatalities in LSR
« Reply #52 on: February 14, 2013, 09:26:42 AM »
Karl, I dont know about the big balls theory!! :mrgreen: I think it was the unwavering quest for speed and being too dumb to know when to lift. :hys: I am much more cautious now. Had I been hurt very bad I am sure I would not be doing this stuff anymore. As you say us old farts don't heal like we used to.
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Offline RansomT

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Re: Fatalities in LSR
« Reply #53 on: February 25, 2013, 02:26:06 PM »
This is a good piece on Ron Cook's
 two accidents at El Mirage in about 1998.

You will see that this crash is a WEAVE (rear wheel)
and NOT a wobble (front wheel)


I'm not so sure about that ....

I took the "not so good" video and slowed it down to 1/4 speed, enhanced it (as much as I could), and tried to isolate when the movement occurred.  It appears to me, which I could easily be wrong, that the WEAVE actually permeates from the front to the back.  Then the WEAVE gets more osculated transferring back to the front.  If this is the case, then it could be more of an issue with an overly aggressive steering dampener and/or over grip of the bars.  But of course, this is conjecture on my part and I am working with a copy of a copy of a broadcast video.

You can download my video here and watch it.  It is an AVI file suitable for a Windows machine.  It is large (81Mb) even though it is only 22 seconds.  I loop several times at the end what looks to be the first Wobble transferring to a WEAVE and back.

http://sdrv.ms/XwWz3a
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Offline scott g

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Re: Fatalities in LSR
« Reply #54 on: February 26, 2013, 08:24:40 PM »
This is a good piece on Ron Cook's
 two accidents at El Mirage in about 1998.

You will see that this crash is a WEAVE (rear wheel)
and NOT a wobble (front wheel)


I'm not so sure about that ....

 It appears to me, which I could easily be wrong,
that the WEAVE actually permeates from the front to the back. 

Then the WEAVE gets more osculated transferring back to the front. 
If this is the case, then it could be more of an issue
with an overly aggressive steering dampener and/or
over grip of the bars. 


Ransom:

Good observations and analysis.

The Society of Automotive Engineers (SAE) defines
A WEAVE as predominantly a movement of the rear wheel,
in the range of 1-3 Hz (cycles per second).  Ron Cooks "problem"
may have started in the front, and moved to the rear,
but in the final analysis, it is the weave of the rear that is the cause of the crash.

The SAE defines a Wobble as primarily a "flutter"
of the front wheel in the range of 8-10 Hz.

Ron clearly has no front wheel
"wobble" in that cyclic range.

There is an SAE paper from the 1970's that
 tested steering dampers for motorcycles (!)

The results were interesting:

1) Damping suitable to "extinguish" the wobble made the weave worse.

2)  Damping to extinguish the weave made the wobble worse.

Remember, a motorcycle is an articulated vehicle.....

Offline Busa 4 Life

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Re: Fatalities in LSR
« Reply #55 on: February 27, 2013, 08:28:10 AM »
WOW. Reading all this.. Im new to LSR. I plan on doing my first ever run this summer.. cant say reading this hasnt rocked me and made me second guess it because im new..
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Offline RansomT

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Re: Fatalities in LSR
« Reply #56 on: February 27, 2013, 09:00:20 AM »
Ransom:

Good observations and analysis.

The Society of Automotive Engineers (SAE) defines
A WEAVE as predominantly a movement of the rear wheel,
in the range of 1-3 Hz (cycles per second).  Ron Cooks "problem"
may have started in the front, and moved to the rear,
but in the final analysis, it is the weave of the rear that is the cause of the crash.

The SAE defines a Wobble as primarily a "flutter"
of the front wheel in the range of 8-10 Hz.

Ron clearly has no front wheel
"wobble" in that cyclic range.

There is an SAE paper from the 1970's that
 tested steering dampers for motorcycles (!)

The results were interesting:

1) Damping suitable to "extinguish" the wobble made the weave worse.

2)  Damping to extinguish the weave made the wobble worse.

Remember, a motorcycle is an articulated vehicle.....

Wow!  Great Info!

A comment about the 3 bottom statements:  I purchased a BMW S1Krr as my street bike a couple years back and joined a couple of BMW forums.  Most of those folks are either professional or weekend road racers.  The consciences from the professional riders are that the biggest mistake in setting up suspension is the dampener.  They basically restate those bottom 3 statements.  They claim that most riders when they start racing professionally get the dampener on the tight side because the rest of the suspension is not quite correctly set.  The dampener masks the problem, but it will transfer the flutter into the rest of the suspension causing weave. Then human nature takes over and riders will over grip the steering aggregating the problem.

What got me curious about that particular wreck is that when Ron gets off the bike, the bike gets stable.  Which reflects, I think, what I said above.
« Last Edit: February 27, 2013, 09:08:25 AM by RansomT »
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Offline scott g

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Re: Fatalities in LSR
« Reply #57 on: February 27, 2013, 04:33:52 PM »

What got me curious about that particular wreck
is that when Ron gets off the bike, the bike gets stable. 

Which reflects, I think, what I said above.


Many of us have seen flat-track racing on TV.

Sometimes a rider crashes, and the bike
"jumps up" and continues without problems
until it hits something, or slows and falls over.

The bike is "more stable" without the rider ?

The average race bike is smarter than the average rider,
and the bike "knows best."

Offline scott g

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Re: Fatalities in LSR
« Reply #58 on: February 28, 2013, 08:56:30 AM »
WOW. Reading all this.. Im new to LSR.
I plan on doing my first ever run this summer..
cant say reading this hasnt rocked me and made me
second guess it because im new..

Come join us, and be among the 99.9% of us
that never have a serious problem.

But....just remember, son,
"there's danger behind them hills....."

Offline Busa 4 Life

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Re: Fatalities in LSR
« Reply #59 on: February 28, 2013, 01:42:47 PM »
WOW. Reading all this.. Im new to LSR.
I plan on doing my first ever run this summer..
cant say reading this hasnt rocked me and made me
second guess it because im new..

Come join us, and be among the 99.9% of us
that never have a serious problem.

But....just remember, son,
"there's danger behind them hills....."

I dont play over hills or the twisty's never know whats on the other side or what or who is coming at you..
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Build By POWERHOUSE

Offline shiphteeey

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Re: Fatalities in LSR
« Reply #60 on: March 28, 2013, 06:55:22 AM »
Just saw this thread as I don't always make it over here to the Busa world.

My friend Gerald Deneau's death at the Ohio Mile in June 2012 was a bit of a mystery to myself and others.  Here was a man who had drag raced in his early years, who purchased a ZX12R when it was first released in 2000 and racked up over 30K miles on it before bringing it to the track.  A bike which I personally piloted on the street to just shy of 189 mph on GPS to make sure it was "safe" at those speeds.

I can tell you his spirits were lukewarm Saturday when he ran a best of 168 mph.  It seems a combination of focusing too much on needing to run the exact speed (and not get in trouble for going too fast for a license run) mixed with the 2000 model's notoriously small numbers on the speedometer may have caused him to struggle too much (spend too much mental energy and time) to run the appropriate speed. 

The standing mile is quite LONG for those who haven't done it.  Speeding on the highways or racing your buddies on the streets....goofing off and flirting with jailable speeds still doesn't necessarily quite prepare some for ... dare I say ... courage and humility it takes to run the standing mile.

I did my best to get his spirits up and after a hearty breakfast and a game plan of not worrying about perfect redline shifts and instead get to 6th gear early and hold it wide open.  I just wanted him to focus on getting the throttle wide open in 6th and look for the finish line, nothing else.  He was plagued with shifting issues, shifting too late or not at all and bouncing on the rev limiter longer than the majority of other participants.  I figured without his attention being taken up by a small numbers on a speedometer or getting shift points precise instead clutch up 5 gears very early and hold on till the finish.

Well he went through the traps at 175 mph.  There were reports of people saying they heard him on the limiter....which would indicate not going into 6th as advised....which is a human mistake (miscount...how many of us have shifted into 7th).  According to eyewitnesses there was no evidence of shutting down.  No brake lights (streetbike), no rolling off sound, body position wasn't normal...it just didn't add up....and at those speeds going off the track ... well....you can figure out the rest.

With the help of the authorities, ECTA, his family and others who I may have forgotten at this time I and a couple other helpful officers at the impound wrestled the twisted, mangled, depressing sight of a 2000 ZX-12R for the long haul back home.  The damage was catastrophic to say the least.  For the family's sake and for my own sanity I went through the shifts on the shifter once the engine was removed from the frame.  Save for the slight possibility of the motorcycle's shifter upshifting or downshifting while tumbling, the bike was still in 5th gear.

It was finally released to me after a lengthy wait (I don't know if that is normal or not, maybe given the situation) that the official cause of death was related to blunt force trauma.  In other words the accident and tumbling caused his death.  That still gave no answers as to WHY.  WHY was there no visible attempt to slow down. 

Having thought about it almost every day since June 2012 my gut says one of 2 things.  He was in his early 70s....and I can't help but think it was either a medical reason (heart attack, stroke, etc) or failing to realize where the finish line was.  Based on his significantly varied speeds throughout the licensing passes on Saturday I can see how missing the orange cones/flags in your peripheral if you are zoning in (straight or tach) is possible would lead you to go past the finish.  And in his early 70s I woud say it was safe to say that my eyesight may have been better than his.

Years ago I ran at the TX Mile and zoned so hard on the tach, desperate for 100 more RPMS to go 200 mph that by the time I looked back up I realized I couldn't see the MILE MARKER  :eek:  So here I am trying to haul this bike down to normal speeds, higher than stock tire pressure, single rotor up front.  Lots of finessing and brakes, slight front, mainly rear...and I end up keeping it upright and go into the grass maybe 20 mph?  Gave the guys at shutdown a  :tu: and did my  :bike: back to pick up my slip.

A momentary lapse of judgement is all it takes.  It didn't matter how many times I went over his bike (taking him under my wing since he had the same bike as I), going over the game plan of riding, shutdown, licensing, etc.  There is always the human element.  We forget this 1" of styrofoam around our heads, foam and leather around our bodies can only do so much.  Safety is a state of mind, we forget sometimes.

Be safe everyone.

A.
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Offline shiphteeey

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Re: Fatalities in LSR
« Reply #61 on: March 28, 2013, 07:01:31 AM »
Slight correction.  Towards the end I stated slowing my 12 down through the traps at TX after missing the mile marker and realizing it too late.  I used mainly FRONT brakes and a little rear, just so we're clear.
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203 mph at Maxton naked
193.9 mph @ the 9/10
200.28 mph @ TX Mile

Offline Wolf1397

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Re: Fatalities in LSR
« Reply #62 on: March 28, 2013, 03:03:10 PM »
Very well written post. Thank you for sharing. Sorry you had to experience that.

Online Oz Booster

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Re: Fatalities in LSR
« Reply #63 on: March 28, 2013, 04:24:17 PM »
There is an interesting post in this thread by Turbofan that may explain missing the finish line
i will link it and not copy so its all in context
http://www.landracing.com/forum/index.php/topic,11935.0.html

it may or may not be the case at anytime but i can sure see how it could happen
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Offline scott g

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Bill Warner - Champion
« Reply #64 on: July 15, 2013, 10:30:55 AM »
BILL WARNER WAS A MAN IN FULL.

Only 44 years old, Bill Warner accomplished more in land speed racing
than most racers accomplish in a career – probably ten careers.   
Most knowledgeable racers expect that Bill’s 311 MPH terminal speed 
record in the 1.5 mile race will not be broken in their lifetimes,
and that Bill’s mile record of 296 MPH – set only hours
before his death – will be the same.

Warner, a marine biologist and college graduate was a gentle tropical fish farmer
in the Tampa Florida area.  Bill came late to land speed racing,
beginning a racing career of rocket-ship-like performance less than 10 years ago. 

Always trying to reach the next level of speed, Bill was never satisfied with “good enough.” 
Bill quickly proved his championship strengths by taking the Texas Mile motorcycle
track record with an un-streamlined bike in 2010.

It was at that point that we all realized that everybody else was playing catch-up ball,
and that we were in the final 2 minutes of the game.

The next year, Bill slammed down his earth- shaking, and world-beating 311 MPH run at Loring.

In one single run, Bill became the first to break
270 mph, 280 mph, 290 mph, 300 mph and 310 mph.

In a time when the ultimate record was being increased by
Measures of 5 or 10 mph – or even 2 mph – Bill in one run
advanced the mark 50 mph.

And he wasn’t even done.

Bill brought to the sport, and to his pursuit of that sport, a drive and intensity
rarely seen in it’s combination of intellect, scientific thinking, willingness
to work 24/7 and to place all his worldly assets in the service of his racing goals.

While doing this, Bill maintained an even temper,
rarely if ever raising his voice in anger. 
He blessed his friends with his ready humor,
and he humored those that thought they were his competition. 

In fact, Bill had no competition.

And he never will.

Offline fvance

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Re: Fatalities in LSR
« Reply #65 on: July 15, 2013, 10:37:26 AM »
Well said Scott, thank you.
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Offline TrickTom1

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Re: Fatalities in LSR
« Reply #66 on: July 15, 2013, 03:49:42 PM »
I first saw this on LR, very nice Mr. G :thumb:

Offline scott g

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Re: Fatalities in LSR
« Reply #67 on: July 15, 2013, 05:14:08 PM »
My wife Ellen knew Bill al long
as any of the rest of us. 

Here are some of her memories.

Bill was unique.  When he first started racing,
some didn't take him too seriously - after all,
what would a marine biologist know about motorcycles.

His Hayabusas always had something
unusual - the guys would nonchalantly head
for his pit to try to figure out what Bill was doing now.

Bill took the teasing about his bike with
good humor - he would just smile in
a knowing way - and you knew there
were a lot more secrets to come out.
 
He was humble about his records.

When we celebrated at Texas,
we practically had to force him to join us
and raise a glass of wine to his accomplishments.
But that wonderful big smile - as only Bill
could smile - when he got a record
was something you never forgot.
 
To say he will be missed is
an enormous understatement - there
was no one like him - and there never will be.

Ellen Guthrie

Offline scott g

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Re: Fatalities in LSR - How many are ENOUGH ?
« Reply #68 on: July 24, 2013, 01:37:22 PM »
       FATAL and POTENTIALLY FATAL
  INCIDENTS in PAVEMENT LSR EVENTS.



1)   Karl Gunter – - - - - shutdown – Beeville - survived
2)   Billy Shoemaker – shutdown – Beeville  - survived
3a) Bill Warner – - - - -  shutdown – Beeville – survived
4)   Jerry Wayne Lyons - track -------Beeville - DIED

3b)  Bill Warner –-   shutdown – ECTA Maxton  - survived
3c)  Bill Warner – -  shutdown – ECTA Maxton  - survived
5)    Guy Lombardi     -shutdown – ECTA – Maxton - DIED
6)    Dave Owen –  --  -shutdown – ECTA – Maxton – DIED
7)    T J Cannon----- -  track - ECTA – Maxton – survived
VIII) Debbie Dross – shutdown - ECTA – Maxton - survived

9)    Gerald Deneau –shutdown - ECTA – Wilmington - DIED
10)  Donna Timney- shutdown – ECTA – Wilmington – survived

3d)  Bill Warner  - - -track and shutdown – Loring - DIED

11)  John Noonan –    track – Mojave mile - survived

Short summary:

Fourteen (14) incidents
Eleven (11) individuals involved
Ten (10) year time span
Ten (10) involved shutdown
Five (5) deaths

Contrast: 

Several incidents at Bonneville
and El Mirage – zero (0) deaths

Offline entropy

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Re: Fatalities in LSR - How many are ENOUGH ?
« Reply #69 on: July 25, 2013, 07:47:46 AM »
EVERYONE:  read Scott's post again and think...
Thanks, Scott :thumb:

Karl



       FATAL and POTENTIALLY FATAL
  INCIDENTS in PAVEMENT LSR EVENTS.



1)   Karl Gunter – - - - - shutdown – Beeville - survived
2)   Billy Shoemaker – shutdown – Beeville  - survived
3a) Bill Warner – - - - -  shutdown – Beeville – survived
4)   Jerry Wayne Lyons - track -------Beeville - DIED

3b)  Bill Warner –-   shutdown – ECTA Maxton  - survived
3c)  Bill Warner – -  shutdown – ECTA Maxton  - survived
5)    Guy Lombardi     -shutdown – ECTA – Maxton - DIED
6)    Dave Owen –  --  -shutdown – ECTA – Maxton – DIED
7)    T J Cannon----- -  track - ECTA – Maxton – survived
VIII) Debbie Dross – shutdown - ECTA – Maxton - survived

9)    Gerald Deneau –shutdown - ECTA – Wilmington - DIED
10)  Donna Timney- shutdown – ECTA – Wilmington – survived

3d)  Bill Warner  - - -track and shutdown – Loring - DIED

11)  John Noonan –    track – Mojave mile - survived

Short summary:

Fourteen (14) incidents
Eleven (11) individuals involved
Ten (10) year time span
Ten (10) involved shutdown
Five (5) deaths

Contrast: 

Several incidents at Bonneville
and El Mirage – zero (0) deaths

Often wrong, but never unsure!!!!!

Offline entropy

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Re: Fatalities in LSR
« Reply #70 on: July 25, 2013, 08:17:53 AM »
I posted this on the Bill thread:

"There was no luck in Bill's racing program
His objectives were carefully defined.
And the steps needed to achieve his objectives were written down and he followed them
He wasn't obsessed, but he had total focus, and worked around the clock.
He achieved the highest level of success..."
************************************************************************

I didn't know Bill to the depth that some others like Larry, Trillium, Jody, his ole Vmax buds.
But I've been racing with him since 2008/Maxton, pit/grid yakking, eating cheap food, staying in cheap hotels.

But the last several months, along with Bob Sellers, Billy Shoemaker, Tom Gates, Randy Baines, et al, I'd been talking with Bill several times a week on planning the Houston Mile.

Slam me if you will, but IMO Bill's passion, his primary focus in 2013 has been the Houston Mile, not his bike.

Getting 300mph in the Mile seemed to be something he felt he had to achieve in order to sell his rocketship, but i didn't hear about joyful meticulous planning & anticipation of being handed a 1.0Mile 300mph ticket.
Bill didn't even put his bike on the dyno before heading up to Wilmington; ran out of time.

THERE IS A WARNING HERE.
Asphalt LSR is a VERY dangerous sport and takes:
total focus on a defined program & objectives,
meticulous preparation,
zen like execution,
no distractions.

in 2010, Bill spent 2 days at my house installing my AIMS dash, my goal was to build and ride the fastest NA Busa on the planet.  Top of the apex.  Bill thought it was possible and had tons of advice.
We talked at length about stuff like dynoing before every event, about detailed visualization the upcoming pass, about reviewing logs, about total focus.
(Ryan, you ever wonder where i got all that stuff i've been spouting???)

Again, slam me if you must, but i feel Bill wasn't taking his own advice in July, 2013.

Racers:
Please have a defined program and stick to it.
Passing tech inspection means close to nothing.

« Last Edit: July 25, 2013, 08:49:08 AM by entropy »
Often wrong, but never unsure!!!!!

Offline nickelcityracing

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Re: Fatalities in LSR
« Reply #71 on: July 25, 2013, 08:51:18 AM »
I posted this on the Bill thread:

"There was no luck in Bill's racing program
His objectives were carefully defined.
And the steps needed to achieve his objectives were written down and he followed them
He wasn't obsessed, but he had total focus, and worked around the clock.
He achieved the highest level of success..."

I didn't know Bill to the depth that some others like Larry, Trillium, Jody, his ole Vmax buds.
But I've been racing with him since 2008/Maxton, pit/grid yakking, eating cheap food, staying in cheap hotels.

But the last several months, along with Bob Sellers, Billy Shoemaker, Tom Gates, Randy Baines, et al, I'd been talking with Bill several times a week on planning the Houston Mile.

Slam me if you will, but IMO Bill's passion, his primary focus in 2013 has been the Houston Mile, not his bike.

Getting 300mph in the Mile seemed to be something he felt he had to achieve in order to sell his rocketship, but i didn't hear about joyful meticulous planning & anticipation of being handed a 1.0Mile 300mph ticket.
Bill didn't even put his bike on the dyno before heading up to Wilmington; ran out of time.

THERE IS A WARNING HERE.
Asphalt LSR is a VERY dangerous sport and takes:
total focus on a defined program & objectives,
meticulous preparation,
zen like execution,
no distractions.

in 2010, Bill spent 2 days at my house installing my AIMS dash, my goal was to build and ride the fastest NA Busa on the planet.  Top of the apex.  Bill thought it was possible and had tons of advice.
We talked at length about stuff like dynoing before every event, about detailed visualization the upcoming pass, about reviewing logs, about total focus.
(Ryan, you ever wonder where i got all that stuff i've been spouting???)

Again, slam me if you must, but i feel Bill wasn't taking his own advice in July, 2013.

Racers:
Please have a defined program and stick to it.
Passing tech inspection means close to nothing.

I will get into the things that went wrong with Bill at some point and time but not now... I do agree with your statement 100% karl..... the one thing I wanted to add, and like you said larl " slam me if you must"... as a LSR racer or any racer for that matter, you must be ready to live with the consequences if things go wrong.... or ready to let your loved ones live with them if they really go wrong......   Jody
« Last Edit: July 25, 2013, 12:15:57 PM by nickelcityracing »
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Offline fvance

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Re: Fatalities in LSR
« Reply #72 on: July 25, 2013, 09:32:58 AM »
As everyone who knows me knows my favorite place is Bonneville. I never cared that much about pavement, especially the mile. I did have fun at Loring and Mojave. My wife did not like me running on pavement. If I ever run on pavement again it will be Production, not fast, relatively speaking. Jason Mcvickers, and I went down at Bonneville at well over 200mph, Jason at 240+. and walked away. Bill and Karl went down at Beeville at around 100mph and were hurt bad!!
I have talked, email, with a fellow Bonneville and pavement racer this week. He has been really fast, 260+. He told me that for the time being he will not be running any pavement events.
I would encourage all of you to seriously think about Bonneville. It is the coolest thing in the world to keep the hammer down for 3-5 miles. IMHO.
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Offline zrxdean

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Re: Fatalities in LSR
« Reply #73 on: July 25, 2013, 10:40:00 AM »
I don't know if I'm ready to think objectively about Bill's crash, but Karl's insights make sense. I wasn't there, but it sounded like Bill was making more passes in less than perfect conditions than I've known him to make before. Carrying the front wheel at 290 in a crosswind! Huge dedication and understanding of the task.

I think Fred's talking about me. Driving up to New York, I thought hard about what I could do to keep myself sane. My wife Leslie said she would support me 100% no matter what I chose to do. She knows I'm careful, and that I am passionate about racing. Other family was more direct - stop racing. Mostly I thought about my young son Ben. I had a scare at Ohio in April, and it made me think hard about all the little things that can go wrong. I will miss standing mile racing a lot, and maybe someday I'll do it again, but for now I will focus on Bonneville.

Offline Got-Busa?

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Re: Fatalities in LSR
« Reply #74 on: July 25, 2013, 03:45:15 PM »
I agree with what's been said so far (Jody, Karl, Fred, Dean).  I have my thoughts on it and each instace.  Still waiting for more info to be released on what may or may not have happened with Bill.  I'm sure a lot of use have our theory/opinion.

I do believe the salt is more forgiving during a crash and less of a risk when you do go down.

My family doesn't want me to race anymore but it's so hard to just walk away.  I've ridden motorcycles my entire life and have many memories with my Dad as a child.  However, I do think about my kids and with very small ones at home, I ask myself is it really worth the risk? 

We all miss Bill but would he really want us to just stop and walk away.  I really don't know what I'm going to do... 

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