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Author Topic: Fatalities in LSR  (Read 211156 times)

Offline Oz Booster

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Re: Fatalities in LSR
« Reply #75 on: July 25, 2013, 05:53:18 PM »
I think you have to follow your heart !


On another tact , what can be done to improve the venues ? gravel traps ? concrete barriers ?, not so much to stop you going down, but slow you quicker  or keep you in a defined area ??

Scott do you have any records of car incidents over the same time frame
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Offline nickelcityracing

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Re: Fatalities in LSR
« Reply #76 on: July 26, 2013, 04:17:03 AM »
I agree with what's been said so far (Jody, Karl, Fred, Dean).  I have my thoughts on it and each instace.  Still waiting for more info to be released on what may or may not have happened with Bill.  I'm sure a lot of use have our theory/opinion.

I do believe the salt is more forgiving during a crash and less of a risk when you do go down.

My family doesn't want me to race anymore but it's so hard to just walk away.  I've ridden motorcycles my entire life and have many memories with my Dad as a child.  However, I do think about my kids and with very small ones at home, I ask myself is it really worth the risk? 

We all miss Bill but would he really want us to just stop and walk away.  I really don't know what I'm going to do...
I understand its hard to walk away, we did it.... I got scared at Maxton during one of my last passes... things where not the same after that, so I stopped... as for what Bill would want ? who knows? only Bill I guess... But I would think if he saw the pain his mother and sister are going through now, he would have thought differently... this is just my opinion.... I understand there is risk in everything, just make sure you weigh the risks and the rewards and make your personal decision from there.....   
« Last Edit: July 26, 2013, 03:22:48 PM by nickelcityracing »
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Offline bulletb

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Re: Fatalities in LSR
« Reply #77 on: July 26, 2013, 02:36:43 PM »
Bill touched alot of our lives in so many ways! I think we all are rethinking what we do in racing & I personally, am rethinking, what I do in my personal life as well.....remembering he was MORE THAN JUST A NUMBER!
He was Bill....FMF!

Bob.
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Offline TrickTom1

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Re: Fatalities in LSR
« Reply #78 on: July 26, 2013, 06:58:22 PM »
I agree with what all of you have said. However, I believe that if that was the day that he was supposed to leave us and if he did not have that accident, that something else would have happened. It could have been on the way to the hotel or in the shower. Pavement racing does have more risks but the races are more often and there are more tracks to do it at.

Put a fat kid in a room alone with a cake and put another one a mile down the road and see which one he'll eat...

I believe that each individual has to weigh their desires vs. the risks that they are willing to take. It's different for everyone based on your faith, marriage, kids or not, etc. There was a time when I was doing this that I did not have an ounce of fear and was okay if I died doing it because I was LIVING. That eventually changed for me plus I got bored and also saw Bill leaving the rest of us behind. It's sad that Bill is gone but he was doing the same thing and doing what a lot more of us wish that we could have done.

We talked every week but there were still so many things that we needed to do and talk about. There were lots of things that I wanted to ask him about his racing program but was waiting until he was done.

Love You Bill, see you again one day   :thumb:
« Last Edit: July 26, 2013, 07:05:22 PM by TrickTom1 »

Offline nickelcityracing

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Re: Fatalities in LSR
« Reply #79 on: July 26, 2013, 08:49:40 PM »
I have not been on here for a while and I see Jody has posted a few thoughts. Well here are mine and how I feel about all this. Does anyone remember the best friend charms that broke in half. Well they could never make a charm big enough with enough pieces for Bill to share with all his friends. I feel blessed to know I would have one. I met Bill in 2006 at Maxton we exchanged numbers and would talk for hours about everything for the last 7 years. The amazing part is Bill knew everything about me and was still my friend. Bill would give me the best advice and encouragement almost every time we talked. He made life fun and the future always looked so bright.   For some reason I keep thinking over and over this was not suppose to happened, how am I going to live with this pain for the rest of my life. So many times at the track we would talk about how hard it was to be crew and not the racer. If anything ever happened I wanted to be the one on the bike and for Jody and Bill to be okay. I hate the fact that we were not with him at Loring this time, it's just killing me.  It sounds strange but I love Bill more then some members of my family, he was family to me. I believe we all have to decide what risks we are willing to take. And ask our loved ones how they would feel if we died doing what made us feel alive. I am not sure if I would race again, not able to think about that yet.    Trillium
« Last Edit: July 26, 2013, 08:52:25 PM by nickelcityracing »
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Offline entropy

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Re: Fatalities in LSR
« Reply #80 on: July 27, 2013, 06:41:05 AM »
I agree with what all of you have said. However, I believe that if that was the day that he was supposed to leave us and if he did not have that accident, that something else would have happened. It could have been on the way to the hotel or in the shower. Pavement racing does have more risks but the races are more often and there are more tracks to do it at.

Tom,
I KNOW you are 110% about safety.
You are the one who insisted on coming to my garage after i "finished" Greenie in mid 2010, and meticulously spent several hours, checking every nut, bolt, set up from end to end.

I love you like a Brother, and 110% respect your beliefs.

But I don't agree that the dramatic difference in deaths/life threatening injuries on asphalt in comparison to salt is simply fate. (maybe i miss-understood yr post?)

Scott Guthrie's rack up of asphalt vs salt stats was an eye opener for me. :thumb:
I may even take back all the Scott bashing  :wink: i've posted in appreciation of his insight.
(OK, not ALL, but most... :hys: )

So what to do about it?

Certainly NOT quit asphalt LSR.

Certainly YES look for opportunities to make asphalt LSR safer

Some things are obvious e.g. make the traps 110% visible.
Make em so obvious a blind man couldn't miss em.
Donna Timney's recent accident highlights the problem, but ECTA is not the only venue with this issue.

When Mojave switched directions, i went through the traps TWICE, never saw them.
On the 3rd pass i hugged the right side of the track and finally saw the cones at the traps.
Noonan also had a hard time seeing the traps and proposed, as a temp solution, erecting an EZUp at each side of the finish line. 
This was a temp solution and not recommended as SOP (who wants to run into an EZUp), but was WAY safer than not seeing the finish.

salt vs asphalt
Tim Chin (smartest man in the world) offers that the lower coffecient of friction on salt may be part of Bonneville's excellent safety record, i.e. slide vs grip and highside.
One set of conditions at Bonneville vs 5+ asphalt tracks is likely an issue.
Also Bonneville has had 50 years to work on safety vs asphalt 15 years.

Path Forward
This IS NOT about adding a 4th tech inspection at Wilmington (IMO 3 is too many)
This IS about basic hazards  structural and procedural.

In any event, I feel strongly we should systematically identify risk areas and mitigate them.

Karl
(...sanctimonious preaching over, Karl looks around and nods at the cheering crowd as he steps off his soap-box...)
« Last Edit: July 27, 2013, 07:47:38 AM by entropy »
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Offline Warp12

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Re: Fatalities in LSR
« Reply #81 on: July 27, 2013, 08:42:29 AM »
First, let me state that I am not specifically addressing Bill's incident. There are too many unknowns at this point.

I think there are obvious areas where you can engineer out the risk (always the preference). Those would include some changes in the track layout, or procedure.

I also think we all know that a lot of accidents happen due to poor decisions. This may be a decision to go too fast too soon, it may be a decision to run in the wrong conditions, or it may be an unfamiliar machine, a personal procedural issue, a decision to not let out of the throttle, riding "over your head", simple "rider error", etc.. A good book on racing is Keith Code's "Twist of the Wrist". He discusses the finite amount of attention we have, our attention "budget", and that is definitely an important point. Safety starts and ends with the racer.

As an example, and this might not be popular...I've read the stories of racing in very bad winds in TX, for years now. I seem to recall pictures of bikes crossed up in the wind at well over 200 mph. At the time, people would say things like, "man that guy has big balls". I'm sure that if there would have been a crash, someone would quickly exclaim, "they should have held the track due to wind!". Well, is that really the issue? Or would it have been a personal choice to pilot the machine in those conditions? Yes, a track has an obligation to set safety standards and adhere to them, but ultimately the racer makes the final choice on any approved pass. I could cite many examples of questionable rider decisions, and near misses, but that would only serve to ruffle feathers.

As for tech inspections, one comprehensive one is all you need. Certainly no more than two, if done by experienced techs. The problem is getting one comprehensive one. Everyone has different tech levels, and it is volunteer work. If it were a paying job, with real in-depth training, clearly defined job expectations, etc., that might be a little different. The reality is that some people are teching bikes and they really don't even understand basic mechanical functions. And then we come back to the racer. How many times does a racer hope to "slide" through tech, knowing that their machine doesn't quite meet the requirement? Rule books are plentiful....but it is a personal decision to adhere to them. And finally, there are so many potential mechanical/safety issues that fall outside of tech inspection...that it again comes back to the racer.

As one final note, a very important point is this: LSR, by nature, is a dangerous, potentially deadly, sport. That is on everyone's mind right now, but it has always been so. It is important to digest that. Think hard about the risks, and your ultimate responsibilities as a racer. Think about it often.

Shane
« Last Edit: July 27, 2013, 08:45:03 AM by Warp12 »

Offline TrickTom1

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Re: Fatalities in LSR
« Reply #82 on: July 27, 2013, 11:05:15 AM »
Very good stuff guys :thumb:

There are many ways to make pavement racing safer, Karl you are on the right track. I can quickly think over several accidents where someone missed the finish line at multiple tracks. I also really believe the Tim Chin is correct about the salt. Shane is spot on about bad decisions, lack of qualified motorcycle tech and people allowed to run in high winds. Pavement racing is not going away. You guys are the best in the business, so keep your constructive ideas going and hopefully they will be utilized by all tracks that are truly concerned about racer safety.


Offline fvance

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Re: Fatalities in LSR
« Reply #83 on: July 27, 2013, 11:32:14 AM »
My thoughts on wind, I hate it. At Bonneville they shut the track down at 12mph. With all the bodywork I have I wont run with over 6mph. Running naked the wind is not so much a factor. Sometimes, at Loring and Beeville, you will have a tailwind at the starting line and you get down track and it turns to a crosswind. Yuk.
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Offline scott g

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Re: Fatalities in LSR -Why Do We Out Up With This ?
« Reply #84 on: July 27, 2013, 12:56:15 PM »
Deaths in pavement
motorcycle LSR racing

Comparisons:

NASCAR


Some assumptions:

Average NASCAR Cup race= 400 miles
Average # racers                    = 33
Average # laps per race          =  160
Average # miles per driver, per race =  10,000
( 25 finishers @ 2.5 x 160 )       

Total races / season                       = 25

Total racing miles / season           =  250,000

Deaths / season (fraction)      = 0.2   

Deaths / mile raced                = 1 per  1,250,000


Motorcycle Land speed racing
on pavement


8-10 tracks, of which maybe 5 - 6 tracks
offer motorcycle racing

About 10 motorcycle LSR races / year

# motorcycle entrants racing, about =  50
Miles raced per entrant, about          =   3
(many folks make one run, some don't
race at all.  A few make 10 or more runs)

10 races x 50 riders x 3 miles   = 1,500 motorcycle
racing miles per year.

Deaths about = per year    = 5 / 5.5  =  0.9
(2008 – present (5 total)

2008   mid 2013 about = 5.5 years)

So:  Motorcycle LRS on pavement, riders about
( 1,500 / 0.9 = 1,667 miles) one / 1,667 miles raced

Discussion:

With maybe 50 finishers, the Daytona 200 motorcycle
race would have  about 10,000 miles raced each year.

At LSR’s rate of fatalities, than would mean
(10,000 / 1,667 = 6) six riders would die EACH YEAR


That would mean, if only veterans died, that
we would have a complete new field of racers
every 9-10 years, and NO survivors after 10 year's..

In NASCAR, at a fatality of one per 1,667 miles,

If each race represents 10,000 miles driven,
than (10,000 / 1,667 = 6) 6 drivers would die
EVERY RACE).

In one season of 25 NASCAR races, there would be
(25 x 6 = 150) 150 deaths.
A complete new field of drivers every 6 races.

NASCAR would have to replace EACH DRIVER
more than 4 - 6 times per year !

Conclusions:

Motorcycle LSR is possibly the most
dangerous motor racing in the world.



WHY DO WE PUT UP WITH THIS ?


Offline Warp12

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Re: Fatalities in LSR -Why Do We Out Up With This ?
« Reply #85 on: July 27, 2013, 01:20:50 PM »
Deaths in pavement
motorcycle LSR racing

Comparisons:

NASCAR


Some assumptions:

Average NASCAR Cup race= 400 miles
Average # racers                    = 33
Average # laps per race          =  160
Average # miles per driver, per race =  10,000
( 25 finishers @ 2.5 x 160 )       

Total races / season                       = 25

Total racing miles / season           =  250,000

Deaths / season (fraction)      = 0.2   

Deaths / mile raced                = 1 per  1,250,000


Motorcycle Land speed racing
on pavement


8-10 tracks, of which maybe 5 - 6 tracks
offer motorcycle racing

About 10 motorcycle LSR races / year

# motorcycle entrants racing, about =  50
Miles raced per entrant, about          =   3
(many folks make one run, some don't
race at all.  A few make 10 or more runs)

10 races x 50 riders x 3 miles   = 1,500 motorcycle
racing miles per year.

Deaths about = per year    = 5 / 5.5  =  0.9
(2008 – present (5 total)

2008   mid 2013 about = 5.5 years)

So:  Motorcycle LRS on pavement, riders about
( 1,500 / 0.9 = 1,667 miles) one / 1,667 miles raced

Discussion:

With maybe 50 finishers, the Daytona 200 motorcycle
race would have  about 10,000 miles raced each year.

At LSR’s rate of fatalities, than would mean
(10,000 / 1,667 = 6) six riders would die EACH YEAR


That would mean, if only veterans died, that
we would have a complete new field of racers
every 9-10 years, and NO survivors after 10 year's..

In NASCAR, at a fatality of one per 1,667 miles,

If each race represents 10,000 miles driven,
than (10,000 / 1,667 = 6) 6 drivers would die
EVERY RACE).

In one season of 25 NASCAR races, there would be
(25 x 6 = 150) 150 deaths.
A complete new field of drivers every 6 races.

NASCAR would have to replace EACH DRIVER
more than 4 - 6 times per year !

Conclusions:

Motorcycle LSR is possibly the most
dangerous motor racing in the world.



WHY DO WE PUT UP WITH THIS ?


Well, Scott, I think that if you put NASCAR racers on bikes, and they were to ride them using the same tactics....yes, you would be replacing a lot of drivers.

I think the thought is well-placed, but I think it is hard to compare cars and bikes. If you look at the total number of crashes, you will probably find that NASCAR is much higher. But the cars provide a lot more protection. Safety gear, and systems, are an important area of focus, as you know. One that we should all consider.

Shane

Offline scott g

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Re: Fatalities in LSR -Why Do We Out Up With This ?
« Reply #86 on: July 27, 2013, 01:36:55 PM »


Well, Scott, I think that if you put NASCAR racers on bikes,
and they were to ride them using the same tactics....yes,
you would be replacing a lot of drivers.

I think the thought is well-placed, but I think it is hard to
compare cars and bikes. If you look at the total number
of crashes, you will probably find that NASCAR is much higher.
But the cars provide a lot more protection. Safety gear, and systems,
are an important area of focus, as you know. One that we should all consider.

Shane

I think the NASCAR numbers NOW look ok,
but in Dale Sr's time, they did not.

NASCAR knew they had a problem,
and they are trying to fix it.

When is the last time somebody died at
the Daytona 200 Motorcycle race ?

They race 10,000 miles in one race,
usually with zero (0) deaths.

Motorcycle LSR pavement racing
kills somebody Every YEAR,
with NO corners, only 1,500 racing miles,
and only one (1) person on the track at a time.

What's the difference ?


Offline Warp12

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Re: Fatalities in LSR -Why Do We Out Up With This ?
« Reply #87 on: July 27, 2013, 01:55:27 PM »
What's the difference ?

There are a lot of differences that I can think of. One of them is that any guy with a motorcycle license, and a tech card, is not going to qualify for the Daytona 200. However, if you took 50 random guys with street licenses and had them make 3 laps, and then let them loose to run 200 mph on the banking....yeah, you might have an issue. If you look at the list of crashes that you compiled, there are some common themes. There are elements that are the responsibility of a race organization, and there are elements that fall on the individual.

Shane
« Last Edit: July 27, 2013, 01:59:25 PM by Warp12 »

Offline nickelcityracing

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Re: Fatalities in LSR
« Reply #88 on: July 27, 2013, 02:34:27 PM »
Was anyone aware that Lorning had huge concrete pads all the way down the side of the track? I am pissed off about that. 
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Offline fvance

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Re: Fatalities in LSR
« Reply #89 on: July 27, 2013, 02:40:09 PM »
I knew they were there. I thought they pointed them out on the drive through, but maybe not.
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Offline FlaminRoo

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Re: Fatalities in LSR
« Reply #90 on: July 27, 2013, 03:59:18 PM »
in investigations done to date, has a common theme been identified, that has contributed to these fatalities ??,, (ie. bumps, landing lights, drains, ???)
« Last Edit: July 27, 2013, 04:01:46 PM by FlaminRoo »
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Re: Fatalities in LSR
« Reply #91 on: July 27, 2013, 04:04:16 PM »
Was anyone aware that Lorning had huge concrete pads all the way down the side of the track? I am pissed off about that. 

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Offline clearblue

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Re: Fatalities in LSR
« Reply #92 on: July 27, 2013, 04:38:34 PM »
We all know the risks when we do any type of racing , I don't LSR but do Drag race and hold my NHRA Competition Licence . Looking at what Bill hit those things should have been removed before that track was used (just my 2ct there). But there is allways more to a crash , LSR racing you are on the bike longer at top speed then drag racing and that helps add to the likelihood of a crash . When Bill crashed in Texas it was a wash out at the end of the track on a shitty surface , Not rider error, I know Bill felt  this was the case and talked to me about it . I also know that any loss of focus or need to rush things ends badly ( 2 crashes for me on the street in 40 years both when I was looking at something to the side of me ) .  Someone here posted up about how people will say" balls of steel" when riding in not so good conditions , we all need to keep this in our minds and question our friends if we think their judgement might be off a little.

Offline Nosgsx1300

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Re: Fatalities in LSR
« Reply #93 on: July 27, 2013, 04:51:24 PM »
Was anyone aware that Lorning had huge concrete pads all the way down the side of the track? I am pissed off about that. 

Bingo!

The Track is 300 feet wide!!! Maxton wasn't anywhere near that. what did we have there 40 feet of "usable" track width?   Loring is a top notch venue
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Offline nickelcityracing

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Re: Fatalities in LSR
« Reply #94 on: July 27, 2013, 05:05:02 PM »
Was anyone aware that Lorning had huge concrete pads all the way down the side of the track? I am pissed off about that. 

Bingo!

The Track is 300 feet wide!!! Maxton wasn't anywhere near that. what did we have there 40 feet of "usable" track width?   Loring is a top notch venue

When you travel at the speeds Bill did from the center of the track 150 ft is seconds, then to hit a concrete pad. Still pissed.
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Offline scott g

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Re: Fatalities in LSR
« Reply #95 on: July 27, 2013, 06:49:51 PM »


The Track is 300 feet wide!!!

Maxton wasn't anywhere near that.
what did we have there 40 feet of "usable" track width?   

Loring is a top notch venue


If Maxton died and went to heaven,
it would come back as Loring !

Loring is the best paved
LSR track in the world !

Offline FlaminRoo

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Re: Fatalities in LSR
« Reply #96 on: July 27, 2013, 06:52:07 PM »
@280mph = 410 feet per second,,,,
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Offline nickelcityracing

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Re: Fatalities in LSR
« Reply #97 on: July 27, 2013, 07:32:01 PM »
Was anyone aware that Lorning had huge concrete pads all the way down the side of the track? I am pissed off about that. 

Bingo!

The Track is 300 feet wide!!! Maxton wasn't anywhere near that. what did we have there 40 feet of "usable" track width?   Loring is a top notch venue

When you travel at the speeds Bill did from the center of the track 150 ft is seconds, then to hit a concrete pad. Still pissed.
Should have typed thousandths of a second. If all the concrete pads were removed it could be a good track. But for now I am not impressed.
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Offline scott g

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Re: Fatalities in LSR
« Reply #98 on: July 27, 2013, 08:04:59 PM »
Should have typed thousandths of a second.
If all the concrete pads were removed it
could be a good track.

But for now I am not impressed.

True, but far easier to bury or "hide"
the lights than to try to turn Maxton
or Beeville into Loring...........

Offline entropy

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Re: Fatalities in LSR
« Reply #99 on: July 27, 2013, 08:55:27 PM »


The Track is 300 feet wide!!!

Maxton wasn't anywhere near that.
what did we have there 40 feet of "usable" track width?   

Loring is a top notch venue


If Maxton died and went to heaven,
it would come back as Loring !

Loring is the best paved
LSR track in the world !

Especially taking the shutdown length into consideration, 110% agreed.
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