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Author Topic: Fatalities in LSR  (Read 211170 times)

Offline RansomT

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Re: Fatalities in LSR
« Reply #100 on: July 27, 2013, 09:55:44 PM »
Scott and others,

Have we just been over looking the obvious?  The commonality of pavement LSR, unlike any other form of pavement racing, is that it is held at venues not orginally designed for racing.  We are attempting to do high risk racing at venues designed for aircraft take-offs and landings.  Not only are the venues designed with that in mind, but are situated and located so that the prevailing winds allow for lift.
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Offline Wolf1397

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Re: Fatalities in LSR
« Reply #101 on: July 27, 2013, 10:19:19 PM »
Not only are the venues designed with that in mind, but are situated and located so that the prevailing winds allow for lift.

That is exactly right; the direction of a runway is based on years of wind surveys before it is built.  Airplanes are happiest with the most headwind and the least crosswind possible.  Works perfect for LSR in the opposite direction. 

Offline Team Millholland

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Re: Fatalities in LSR
« Reply #102 on: July 27, 2013, 11:18:04 PM »
I loved running at Loring in 2011 & 2012, not just because of the venue & folks.....I just really liked that big track after running at Maxton for 10 years.
I had a love/hate relationship with that place.
The memories of the boys and me racing together there is wonderful, losing our friend Dave was absolutely heart-wrenching.

We made the last event and on our final passes I went first and sit on the return road at shutdown and prayed for Chad to stay upright then in a moment the same thing with Zack. I never liked the curve or the flattened headers and busted oil pans that came with the broken concrete. Wilmington made this ol' father happy. I still worried, but not as much.

Now with the loss of Bill, I'm struggling on my own LSR future. First of all, we knew (and Bill the most) that he was in uncharted territory the last couple of years. He had no one to compare notes with on everything like us mere mortals. We talked about it a few times just like many of your conversations with him.
He had some great advice and help from several of you on this forum but he knew it was all on him to make his runs as safe as possible.
I have never run the numbers a lot of you have but even going fairly fast the speed overcomes the fear when I'm tucked in and I've truly enjoyed it. I think for Bill it was even more than just the thrill, the challenge of exceeding carried him.
What a guy he was and not just on Land Speed Racing, he was a prince of a man.

I love drag racing and was commited to running Bill's event just to get some 1/2 mile passes, not even concerned about the mile speeds so maybe Father Time is catching up with me......I dunno.

Dan

Offline entropy

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Re: Fatalities in LSR
« Reply #103 on: July 28, 2013, 05:57:16 AM »
Well written, Dan.
You make me proud.
karl
Often wrong, but never unsure!!!!!

Offline scott g

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Re: Fatalities in LSR
« Reply #104 on: July 31, 2013, 11:53:44 AM »
In the 1930’s and 40’s, Land Speed Racing (LSR)
was formalized with the formation of the
Southern California Timing Association (SCTA).

The SCTA was a true association, being formed
and run by the racers themselves.  The racers
 built the cars and bikes, laid out the course,
wrote the rules, and paid for the timing clocks themselves.

The SCTA, still in business at El Mirage in California
and at Bonneville in Utah, is the model for all other
“timing associations” throughout the world,
whatever their business models.

When the East Coast Timing Association (ECTA)
was formed in the 1990’s, they used the model
of the SCTA, and even their rulebook - with suitable
adjustments for pavement instead of dry lakes.

When the Loring Timing Association (LTA) was formed in the 2000’s,
The LTA, with permission of the ECTA, used the ECTA rule book.

The history of racers organizing themselves - and policing
themselves - is part of LSR’s DNA, and goes
uninterrupted back to the 1930’s.

Offline scott g

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Re: Fatalities in LSR
« Reply #105 on: July 31, 2013, 11:56:24 AM »
The tradition of LSR is for the racers to be in charge of themselves:
The racers write and enforce the rules, are responsible
for their own safety, and decide how the racing is organized and paid for.

An often-overlooked part of this “association” point of view is that
each racer is partly responsible for the safety of all other racers. 
This would include discouraging a racer from going down the track
if the racer is “out-of-control” or dehydrated. 

It might also include reminding a racer to wear his glasses…….


Of the fourteen (14) “incidents in recent pavement LSR racing,
there are legitimate questions in at least four (4) involved riders
- and three (Lombardi, Owen and Deneau) of the five fatal
results - may not have realized they had passed the timing traps,
and were approaching the end of the track.

Obviously, ANY LSR association would be concerned with even one fatality.

The concern would be much higher when the MAJORITY of the deaths
could be laid to a SINGLE CAUSE the might be easily prevented.

Offline scott g

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Re: Fatalities in LSR
« Reply #106 on: July 31, 2013, 11:59:33 AM »
With that in mind, I forwarded Karl’s and
my thinking to Joe Timney of the ECTA

(Racers taking care of racers).

Joe:

I was chatting with Karl Gunter, and he
had a nice idea for additional safety at
the Ohio track.

1)  Put bright green lights at the finish of the timing traps.

2)  Have a bright red light (maybe 300-400 feet
past the timing lights) turn on after a vehicle trips
the timing lights.

More warning to racers that
the finish lights have been passed.

YHS

Scott

Offline scott g

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Re: Fatalities in LSR
« Reply #107 on: July 31, 2013, 12:04:34 PM »
Joe quickly responded.

(Dean Sabatinelli is also a PhD, and has been timed TWICE
at over 269 MPH at Loring on an SGR Hayabusa)

Scott,

I have asked Dean Sabatinelli for assistance in this matter and
three PH.D's have been contacted. Their specialties include noise,
annoyance and information processing, coding for visual displays,
human vision, perception, and visual performance and transportation safety.

I have contacted various manufacturers who produce safety lighting.

We have identified that at the half mile mark the track goes downhill
for not quite a half mile and then becomes level again. The red placards
get muted by the white concrete.  The track faces the southwest
and the afternoon sun becomes a factor also.

Things we have learned:

Flashing lights are the best for capturing attention.

Every onset and offset drives the visual system.
Flashing lights presented at 5-8 per second have
the best attention capture properties.

There are very few folks out there with photo-sensitive
epilepsy - about 500 people in the entire country. It comes
on at puberty, so they typically know that they know they have it.
The flash rates that trigger reactions are fast; 12-18 per second.


Joe

Offline scott g

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Re: Fatalities in LSR
« Reply #108 on: July 31, 2013, 12:27:11 PM »
Scott and others,

Have we just been over looking the obvious? 

The commonality of pavement LSR, unlike any other form of pavement racing,
is that it is held at venues not originally designed for racing.  We are attempting
to do high risk racing at venues designed for aircraft take-offs and landings.
 Not only are the venues designed with that in mind, but are situated and
located so that the prevailing winds allow for lift.


After WWII, soldiers came home, and wanted to race
their home-made hot rods.  Drag racing had not yet been formally
invented, and the NHRA had not been conceived or formed.

HOT ROD magazine did not exist.

For racing off the streets, the only choices were dry lakes,
which was fine if you lived in Utah (Bonneville) of LA (el Mirage) but
old airfields were EVERYWHERE, and the government had little use for them.

In that period of time, there was no concept of ET (elapsed time),
and allanybody wanted to know was "how fast is it."

Racers on old airstrips were running 4-wide for a mile total !

NO ET, just top speed !

Until the NHRA appeared with a business model, drag racing
had no "purpose built" tracks, and no real money.

Now, drag racing finds that cars are going "too fast" in the 1/4 mile,
and the TF (top fuel) boys are racing 1,000 feet.

It's possible to envision that the "fast guys" will
be reduced to 1/8 mile track MAXIMUM.

Offline scott g

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Re: Fatalities in LSR -Why Do We Out Up With This ?
« Reply #109 on: July 31, 2013, 12:44:50 PM »
What's the difference ?

if you took 50 random guys with street licenses and had them make 3 laps, and then let them loose to run 200 mph on the banking....yeah, you might have an issue.

Shane

Shane:

Certainly, the relative lack of experience
is a BIG hazard, as you correctly point out.

Currently, most "associations" insist on "licensing passes."

For some of us, that means "125 mph, 150 mpg,
175 mpg, 200 mph, 250 mph"
and then you get to go full throttle.

Do we need MORE license passes ?

When you get a driver license
(max legal speed = 75 mph if you are lucky)
you have to take a test.

Is something like that called for here ?

How do we get around the lack of experience
for both the WOT part, and (maybe more importantly)
the "slowing down" part ?

Offline Got-Busa?

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Re: Fatalities in LSR
« Reply #110 on: July 31, 2013, 02:19:57 PM »
The Track is 300 feet wide!!! Maxton wasn't anywhere near that. what did we have there 40 feet of "usable" track width?   Loring is a top notch venue


Honestly, I don't know how you guys even raced at Maxton for so many years.  I never got a chance to race at that location but based on pictures, that place was a train wreck waiting to happen based on the layout alone, surface condition, etc... I understand that was probably all you could find to race on but realistically probably one of the most unsafe places ever to race IMO...

With that in mind, I forwarded Karl’s and
my thinking to Joe Timney of the ECTA

(Racers taking care of racers).

Joe:

I was chatting with Karl Gunter, and he
had a nice idea for additional safety at
the Ohio track.

1)  Put bright green lights at the finish of the timing traps.

2)  Have a bright red light (maybe 300-400 feet
past the timing lights) turn on after a vehicle trips
the timing lights.

More warning to racers that
the finish lights have been passed.

YHS

Scott


This is something they have at Texas!  Once you trip the timing beam they have bright RED lights flashing along the edge of the track.  It's very easy to see but....


Shane:

Certainly, the relative lack of experience
is a BIG hazard, as you correctly point out.

Currently, most "associations" insist on "licensing passes."

For some of us, that means "125 mph, 150 mpg,
175 mpg, 200 mph, 250 mph"
and then you get to go full throttle.

Do we need MORE license passes ?

When you get a driver license
(max legal speed = 75 mph if you are lucky)
you have to take a test.

Is something like that called for here ?

How do we get around the lack of experience
for both the WOT part, and (maybe more importantly)
the "slowing down" part ?

...the problem has been in the shutdown. 

How many of the accidents happened not at 200+ accelerating but after passing through the lights and slowing? 

Either running off the track (brake failure or to much speed), washing out the front end, or exiting the course and hiting something, etc..  I believe only one of the accidents happened in the first 1/4-to-1/2-mile at 100mph..

Hate to say it but with technology these days getting up to 170+ isn't really that tough anymore, it's getting the things slowed down that is the problem at many of these events.

Are people really going to fast or just not seeing the finish line?  Not seeing the end of the track?  Do we need a vision test at the track?

The other issue is if things do go wrong and you go down, what will you hit?

At Bonneville you hit the salt and can slide for days.  If you exit the track at any of the paved events you will have a problem.  It doesn't matter what track you are talking about, they are not designed for people to exit the paved surface...PERIOD!  I was at Texas when all of the cars have crashed and we have witnessed what happens with motorcycles.  Look at the Lamborghini crash video, they hit a mound which launched the car (on a 230mph+ run).  Most that exit the grass at lower speeds have no issue but at triple digits it is a BIG problem.

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Offline entropy

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Re: Fatalities in LSR
« Reply #111 on: July 31, 2013, 03:08:02 PM »

Are people really just not seeing the finish line?  Not seeing the end of the track? 


YES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Often wrong, but never unsure!!!!!

Offline Team Millholland

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Re: Fatalities in LSR
« Reply #112 on: August 01, 2013, 08:27:47 AM »
Very good, informative information!

I am guilty of being too focused at the traps of being tucked in, watching my tach, etc. and have blown by the finish line. I honestly believe the ideas posted would help things out.

I thank you Karl for letting me ride in your vehicle at Texas & Loring, I remember you stressing to me the markers and their meaning.
I also remember you saying years ago that we have to start watching out for each other. Sometimes when the winds pick up we "push" the passes.

Improving visual aids at the traps and limiting runs in high side winds are two areas that should be addressed in my book.

Thanks folks,
Dan

Offline Busa3268

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Re: Fatalities in LSR
« Reply #113 on: August 01, 2013, 09:11:13 AM »
all great ideas

what about a shut down engine kill box if you past a said point and have not lifted? or a box to decouple the throttle cable past a point?

Saftey is very important as i plan to continue to race for many years.. No place is perfect as stated But Loring is nice for what it is.. I like the idea of running the mile and have 150% of track to come to a stop..
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Offline jarim

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Re: Fatalities in LSR
« Reply #114 on: August 03, 2013, 05:15:28 AM »
Just my 2 cents... There has been one fatality in Finland back in 2003, in that case the rider most obviously missed the braking point as he hit the the brakes only after around ~100 meters before the runway ends. Missing the braking point is the most common reason to accidents  in LSR in my opinion.

...


Things we have learned:

Flashing lights are the best for capturing attention.


...


My friend also missed braking point back in 2007 as it was poorly marked. Luckily he got away with it as he realized it early enough (run off the tarmac at the end but stayed up). Nowadays basically in every event we have a ambulance/police car with emergency lights on at the braking point. Nobody has run long since.
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Offline Got-Busa?

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Re: Fatalities in LSR
« Reply #115 on: August 03, 2013, 11:19:24 AM »
all great ideas

what about a shut down engine kill box if you past a said point and have not lifted? or a box to decouple the throttle cable past a point?

Seems like a good idea but not something I would want.  If you get head shake/tank slapper or into something you need to power out of,..you could be asking for more trouble with that feature.



Not sure this would be safe but visually it works...



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Offline Oz Booster

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Re: Fatalities in LSR
« Reply #116 on: August 04, 2013, 05:45:33 PM »
You could also look how El Mirage do it,  thats the only limited distance track i have run, and it was not difficult to tell where the finish was .
even visible from the start line
They have weather balloons at the finish
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Offline 2fast4u2c

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Re: Fatalities in LSR
« Reply #117 on: August 07, 2013, 09:35:04 PM »
Hey all,   :D

I have been reading this thread for some time and refused to give my 2cents up to this point until today.  I'm not a PHD, I'm not an accident investigator with years of experience.  I have not come off a 2 wheeled vehicle doing LSR.   I am however building a bike that I hope will take me to my first goal level of going 250 to attain my AA license.  I feel confident I will achieve that goal.  I've always said that everything after that was pudding.  I saw Dave go. I Was the one that invited Guy Lombardi from Florida to race Maxton who died on his first pass.  I also witnessed the latest death of Gerald Deneau at Wilmington.  After hearing of Bills passing attempting to do what I want to do at Loring, I have stopped, stepped back and given some very deep thought to what I'm trying to do.  I spent yesterday in Vista, Calif. at AirTech installing modified forks on my bike where it is getting some LSR skin made for it.  I have been documenting my every move in articles so that all in the LSR and bike building world can see what I am doing and give me advice, thoughts and challenges to my build.
I've never built a high HP bike that could possibly go 300mph.
I do NOT want to die, but I will not give up on my dream of achieving my goals.  I am very interested in any tidbit of information from any source that would allow me to make the best LSR high speed bike I can.  As I have told everyone during my build, I am surrounding myself with the best I can find in each discipline of my build to give me the edge I need to be as safe as I possibly can.   I have built fire suppression into my program, the best brakes I can find, I will be dressing for the crash with every safety device at my disposal.

I will be making a new body work cage to eliminate bodywork deformation at high speeds possibly causing me to not go straight.  I will NOT be running if there is the slightest side winds causing issues with high speed runs by any rider on the course.  if I go to a race and never get the chance to run because of winds, then so be it.

I will also not be allowed to make any pass at Wilmington without the approval of both the Chief Timer, Race Director and my many friends who is always at or in my pits.  Dean, Ransom, Greg and so many others.

But... Trying to be so safe as to never take it to the edge to achieve the ultimate goal on a given run will be my decision and mine alone.  I will be successful and live and achieve my goal or not.  When all is said and done, I will have done it, My Way. (My best Sinatra voice)

I have instructed certain people that in the event of a mishap, that all data, videos (on and off board) be made available for a complete analysis no matter what happens.  I would want any info I could to help me just as all of you would want.  A complete analysis is the only way we can figure out how to make what we do more achievable and hopefully safer. 

For those of you that know me, I have been very blessed to be associated with the best in our sport.  I can only hope that this last goal doesn't do me in. 

Okay, I'm done and sorry it was more than 2 cents.

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Offline clearblue

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Re: Fatalities in LSR
« Reply #118 on: August 07, 2013, 09:42:23 PM »
Hey all,   :D

I have been reading this thread for some time and refused to give my 2cents up to this point until today.  I'm not a PHD, I'm not an accident investigator with years of experience.  I have not come off a 2 wheeled vehicle doing LSR.   I am however building a bike that I hope will take me to my first goal level of going 250 to attain my AA license.  I feel confident I will achieve that goal.  I've always said that everything after that was pudding.  I saw Dave go. I Was the one that invited Guy Lombardi from Florida to race Maxton who died on his first pass.  I also witnessed the latest death of Gerald Deneau at Wilmington.  After hearing of Bills passing attempting to do what I want to do at Loring, I have stopped, stepped back and given some very deep thought to what I'm trying to do.  I spent yesterday in Vista, Calif. at AirTech installing modified forks on my bike where it is getting some LSR skin made for it.  I have been documenting my every move in articles so that all in the LSR and bike building world can see what I am doing and give me advice, thoughts and challenges to my build.
I've never built a high HP bike that could possibly go 300mph.
I do NOT want to die, but I will not give up on my dream of achieving my goals.  I am very interested in any tidbit of information from any source that would allow me to make the best LSR high speed bike I can.  As I have told everyone during my build, I am surrounding myself with the best I can find in each discipline of my build to give me the edge I need to be as safe as I possibly can.   I have built fire suppression into my program, the best brakes I can find, I will be dressing for the crash with every safety device at my disposal.

I will be making a new body work cage to eliminate bodywork deformation at high speeds possibly causing me to not go straight.  I will NOT be running if there is the slightest side winds causing issues with high speed runs by any rider on the course.  if I go to a race and never get the chance to run because of winds, then so be it.

I will also not be allowed to make any pass at Wilmington without the approval of both the Chief Timer, Race Director and my many friends who is always at or in my pits.  Dean, Ransom, Greg and so many others.

But... Trying to be so safe as to never take it to the edge to achieve the ultimate goal on a given run will be my decision and mine alone.  I will be successful and live and achieve my goal or not.  When all is said and done, I will have done it, My Way. (My best Sinatra voice)

I have instructed certain people that in the event of a mishap, that all data, videos (on and off board) be made available for a complete analysis no matter what happens.  I would want any info I could to help me just as all of you would want.  A complete analysis is the only way we can figure out how to make what we do more achievable and hopefully safer. 

For those of you that know me, I have been very blessed to be associated with the best in our sport.  I can only hope that this last goal doesn't do me in. 

Okay, I'm done and sorry it was more than 2 cents.

Very Well Said Guy

Offline Wolf1397

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Re: Fatalities in LSR
« Reply #119 on: August 07, 2013, 09:53:10 PM »
I have been following your build thread closely and wish you the best of luck achieving your goals safely.

Offline knecum

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Re: Fatalities in LSR
« Reply #120 on: August 07, 2013, 10:05:20 PM »
Bills accident IMO was caused by power wheelieing @ 280 and a cross wind that pushed him off to edge of the coarse. Unfortunately there was obstacle in his way that he couldn't avoid. Please make sure you are 100% comfortable on your bike. If you feel that something doesn't feel right no matter if its the fit of your leathers or Sun glare in your eyes to the slightest wind breeze that may make you feel not as one with the bike.  You control your bike don't let the bike control you. Know your comfort zone, there always another day!!  R.I.P. Bill!!

Offline TrickTom1

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Re: Fatalities in LSR
« Reply #121 on: August 09, 2013, 08:27:28 PM »
Bills accident IMO was caused by power wheelieing @ 280 and a cross wind that pushed him off to edge of the coarse. Unfortunately there was obstacle in his way that he couldn't avoid. Please make sure you are 100% comfortable on your bike. If you feel that something doesn't feel right no matter if its the fit of your leathers or Sun glare in your eyes to the slightest wind breeze that may make you feel not as one with the bike.  You control your bike don't let the bike control you. Know your comfort zone, there always another day!!  R.I.P. Bill!!
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Offline nickelcityracing

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Re: Fatalities in LSR
« Reply #122 on: August 10, 2013, 09:16:56 AM »
Bills accident IMO was caused by power wheelieing @ 280 and a cross wind that pushed him off to edge of the coarse. Unfortunately there was obstacle in his way that he couldn't avoid. Please make sure you are 100% comfortable on your bike. If you feel that something doesn't feel right no matter if its the fit of your leathers or Sun glare in your eyes to the slightest wind breeze that may make you feel not as one with the bike.  You control your bike don't let the bike control you. Know your comfort zone, there always another day!!  R.I.P. Bill!!
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Offline 2fast4u2c

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Re: Fatalities in LSR
« Reply #123 on: August 10, 2013, 01:26:00 PM »
Flashing colored lights at finish and different colored lights at about 350' past finish (approx 1 sec of travel at 238mph) would be a great help.  Not allowing high speed runs above a certain mph of wind speed (TBD).  Bill told me that he would not race if he could hear the wind.  He said that if he could hear the air rushing past his ears, he would not run.  I don't know what the wind gust speed was, but at 280, it had a mega affect on his ability to keep it straight.
I have another thought.  Knowing that the area of his viewport from where his head was located during his run was in effect a straight line view angle.  His peripheral vision had to be somewhat limited, I suppose and at 280mph, it wouldn't take but a very short amount of time to be at the side of the course.
 I am going to build a full canopy to allow full field of vision just in case that was also an issue.
I would rather continue to build my bike to the "what if" factor than disregard common sense observations.
Thank you very much Steve for your insight on what happened.  As always, a great help.
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Offline Ozonkiller

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Re: Fatalities in LSR
« Reply #124 on: August 15, 2013, 08:45:44 PM »
The discussion about seeing the finish line is a valid one.  The folks at the Mojave mile implemented that last year, putting lights at, I believe, 600' and 1000' past the finish line.  When you trip the beams they start to flash.  Very effective.

You can see them clearly from the start line.  That's an added benefit.  Sitting at the start line you see the lights flash and you know you're close to getting permission to launch. :tu:

Tom