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Author Topic: Fatalities in LSR  (Read 211231 times)

Offline scott g

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Re: Fatalities in LSR
« Reply #150 on: June 17, 2014, 11:56:28 AM »

There is not a lot to say really and the incident is still under investigation by the police but sadly Tony was ejected by his Turbo Busa when it failed initially to shift gear  at around 80 mph and landed badly on his head causing serious brain trauma from which he did not recover.

This is a big shame to hear !

I suspect that even the best helmet
could not prevent brain damage when a
500 pound bike is dropped on the head.

This is somewhat like the crash that killed
Marco Simonchelli in a MotoGP race,
and that was never fully explained.

Our prayers and thoughts again
go out to you, the folks at the race,
and to the family.

Scott

Offline scott g

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Re: Fatalities in LSR
« Reply #151 on: November 11, 2014, 10:37:29 AM »
Well, it looks like the 2014 season is essentially wrapped up, unless
Finland or Dubai has an unannounced meet coming up.

And, once again, motorcycle pavement LSR proves to be the
most dangerous motorsport in the world, with Tony Foster's
on-track death in England this year.

Maybe we were lucky that the Beeville track offered no serious accidents,
but that might have been from essentially no high speeds obtained
(Brenda excepted, of course).

Actually, no really high speeds anywhere......
Maybe that helps ?

Likewise, a surprising "zero-deaths" from the ECTA.

Seems like Beeville is the most dangerous track,
and the ECTA the mostly deadly organization

On pavement, at least one rider killed
every year for how many years now ?

Nine, Ten ?

An still- NO DEATHS of sit-on bikers at Bonneville,
after almost 70 years......


Offline 2fast4u2c

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Re: Fatalities in LSR
« Reply #152 on: November 11, 2014, 12:02:29 PM »
Scott,

Your suggestion that the ECTA has a death a year is completely baseless and false. To assert that we are the Death organization is also biased and I'm not sure why you of all people would say this.
Yes, racing on a concrete surface with a totally different abrasion factor than the salt is indeed true. And coming off a bike in the concrete no matter where you race is also going to be more damaging than sliding on a salt surface that acts like a shuffleboard surface. But your assertation that the ECTA alone is Death organization is inflammatory and undeserved. You are implying something and I'm not sure what you're trying to get across.
Yes, the ECTA sends more bikes down a concrete runway over the course of 5 events than other organization in the world. So it stands to reason that we would have a higher per rider event than any other sanctioned group in the world. El mirage has a similar surface and it also sees a rider slide more than on a concrete surface.

Your post is taken with disdain by me and I ask that you clarify and share your reasons for such language.

Respectfully,

Guy
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Offline scott g

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Re: Fatalities in LSR
« Reply #153 on: November 11, 2014, 12:38:17 PM »
Well Guy, you may have a point here.

1)  What I actually posted was:

On pavement, at least one rider killed
every year for how many years now ?


Please note that the reference was to pavement LSR
as a whole, and NOT the ECTA specifically.

2)  Please also note that it was NOT me that
called the ECTA the DEATH ORGANIZATION. 

However, we can both agree that the ECTA has allowed more
deaths than any other LSR organization, salt, dirt, concrete or asphalt.

Not a reputation to be desired, but nonetheless the facts of the matter.

Interesting that Maxton ran for more than ten (10) years before the
first death, and then several more happened in quick succession,
and the bad "happenings" followed the organization to Ohio.

Strange perhaps that ECTA founder, the beloved John Becket
never was race director for a fatality at Maxton,
and then he himself dies in a racing crash at Bonneville.

So, most of the serious and fatal crashes happened in the last
six or so years under new administration.....

3) Not far behind the ECTA, with a "problem total" per year of operation
is the Texas Mile at Beeville.  They have had plenty of "Bad Happenings,"
and at a much higher RATE than any other track.

From my inquiries into Karl's, Bills, and Billy's accidents,
I am surprised that the City of Beeville sanctions
racing there - at least for bikes.

Must be a powerful insurance lobby.....

4)  Even Loring, which has to be the best paved track in the business,
has now had a fatality, and we all now know why.

Pavement is unforgiving, and the results are shattering for all involved.

Understanding and accepting the risk is important.

Reducing the risk is paramount !

Offline scott g

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Re: Fatalities in LSR
« Reply #154 on: November 11, 2014, 12:54:19 PM »
Scott,


Yes, the ECTA sends more bikes down a concrete runway over the course of 5 events
 than other organization in the world. So it stands to reason that we would have a higher
per rider event than any other sanctioned group in the world. El mirage has a similar
surface and it also sees a rider slide more than on a concrete surface.


Respectfully,

Guy

Actually Guy,

1)  I believe that Ohio has only 4 meets per year,
while the "Old Maxton"had six meets per year.

2)  Texas puts vehicles down the track at a stupendous rate. 

Sometimes at 1200 vehicles per meet, when the ECTA sends
less than 400 through the traps.  So, in two meets, the Texas Mile
has more starts in 2 meets, that the ECTA has in a full season.

Offline scott g

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Re: Fatalities in LSR
« Reply #155 on: November 11, 2014, 01:03:24 PM »
Scott,

Your post is taken with disdain by me and I ask that
you clarify and share your reasons for such language.

Respectfully,

Guy

Let me know if we are getting more clear on this, Guy.

It is not my intention to denigrate or "slam" any particular organization,
or their representatives, but to make an assessment of danger

(Notice I did NOT say "blame)

Even when an organization has "bad luck" they receive attention if only
to determine whether is is actually "bad luck", or bad operating procedures.

We know that Beeville - at least in the past - had some horrible and
truly dangerous procedures, and I am still surprised that law suits
did not evolve from the injuries - which turned out to be pretty expensive.

Offline 2fast4u2c

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Re: Fatalities in LSR
« Reply #156 on: November 11, 2014, 04:15:25 PM »
Seems like Beeville is the most dangerous track,
and the ECTA the mostly deadly organization

On pavement, at least one rider killed
every year for how many years now ?

Nine, Ten ?



Scott, there has been 3 deaths in the 12 years I have been coming to ECTA.  2 at Maxton and 1 at Wilmington out of how many thousands of motorcycle passes?  Really Scott.  One of the major reasons for no deaths at B'ville is the surface.  How many have fallen or crashed at B'ville? or El Mirage?

However, we can both agree that the ECTA has allowed more
deaths than any other LSR organization, salt, dirt, concrete or asphalt.


Allowed?  Your motives for this post seems far beyond just posting factual information.  You have an agenda and I'm sad to read this from you who I have always respected for your matter of fact posts.  This is not a matter of fact post.

We sent on the average of over 500-700 runs a meet (Per Joe Timney) at each and every meet.  The last meet was around the 400 mark due to unforeseen oil downs and run off from the track.  So your facts are incorrect.  Your implications are hazy at best.

Your post serves no purpose than to insinuate that the "New Management Allows Accidents" is preposterous. 

Since I consider myself part of the "New Mgmt" as a volunteer, I take a personal offense to this post.  I'm not sure where you were trying to take this post or what your insinuations were meant to say, but they are not like you to stray from hard facts.

The number of major fatality events that have occurred at the ECTA, and you will agree it is due to the new higher speeds that these motorcycles are now capable of attaining.  It wasn't until the advent of the Hayabusa did we really see the average joe rider have the ability to break 200mph.  Now its common practice and 220's and 230's coming easier and easier.  So if you are charting a graph that relates speed to deaths, than your graph will take on a whole new meaning when the electrics finally get it together.

My rant is finished.  I still feel you are one of the finest accident investigators I've met and your knowledge of our sport is above and beyond.
And I still consider myself your friend.

Guy
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Offline scott g

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Re: Fatalities in LSR
« Reply #157 on: November 14, 2014, 03:47:47 PM »
Recent information from the world of MotoGP.

1)  A total of 981 crashes across all three
classes, Moto1. Moto2 and MotoGP. 

(Includes practice.)

2) EVERY rider in MotoGP crashed
AT LEAST one time over the season.

3) 216 total crashes in MotoGP, demonstrably
the classes with the most proficient riders in
the pavement world. 

4) With something like 30-35 riders in MotoGP,
that's about 7 crashes PER RIDER for the season.

5) NO fatalities.

6) NO serious injuries. (Like, paralysis or
career injuries).

What do they know that motorcycle LSR doesn't know ?

Offline fvance

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Re: Fatalities in LSR
« Reply #158 on: November 14, 2014, 05:11:03 PM »
Having watched some motogp, not a big fan, I would think a high percentage of crashes are low side washout and into a sand pit. Most of our crashes are pretty high speed and usually not low siders.  A lot of flopping around. Jason Mcvickers and I were very lucky and walked away from very high speed crashes :mrgreen:
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Offline RansomT

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Re: Fatalities in LSR
« Reply #159 on: November 14, 2014, 06:27:27 PM »
They know how to crash.
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Offline scott g

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Re: Fatalities in LSR
« Reply #160 on: November 14, 2014, 11:22:33 PM »
They know how to crash.

I think Ransom is more correct
than we would like to admit.

1)  Marquez went down at over 200 MPH,
with no visible effect on him,  and
was soon back on track with his spare bike.

Marquez crashes about 10-12 times per season.

2)  One fatal crash at Beeville was reported in the
neighborhood of 60-80 mph, while going straight
down the track, by himself....

3) The fatal crash at Ohio was at some reduced speed,
but the rider never slowed (substantially) all the way
through the shut-down area, and across the grass to
the far steel barrier.

4) One can see many MotoGP riders "throwing a leg"
to prevent being trapped by a high-side by the bike.

5)  Surely, most of us do NOT have as
much practice crashing as the MotoGP pro's.

6)  If we were told to "lay it down to avoid a crash...."
How many of us have useful experience
in "Laying it down " deliberately ?

Offline scott g

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Re: Fatalities in LSR
« Reply #161 on: November 14, 2014, 11:24:14 PM »

 Jason Mcvickers and I were very lucky
and walked away from very high speed crashes :mrgreen:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QImtEKiicus

Offline speedduck

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Re: Fatalities in LSR
« Reply #162 on: November 15, 2014, 10:09:30 AM »
What about the fact that moto-gp riders are mostly underweight midgets ? What is the average size and weight for LSR rider ? Your weight works against you when you are flying in the air, and hitting ground.

Offline SEJ

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Re: Fatalities in LSR
« Reply #163 on: November 20, 2014, 02:33:01 PM »
Not to mention that they are world class athletes.
They're overall fitness is second to none...

Do any of you know that they have functioning airbags in their leathers? You bet your ass that they do! The best safety gear in the world. It all trickles down from them to us.
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Offline SEJ

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Re: Fatalities in LSR
« Reply #164 on: November 21, 2014, 11:48:01 AM »


1)  Marquez went down at over 200 MPH,
with no visible effect on him,  and
was soon back on track with his spare bike.

Marquez crashes about 10-12 times per season.




And for what time period was Marquez actually on paved surface??? Most road race accidents are not at high speeds and usually happen in corners at much lower speeds. You hit the pavement and are usually off the track into the grass or gravel traps instantly.
Ask me how I know?  :lol: What about the riders average age in MotoGp??? No need to delve into that, you get my point.

I've had two bad road racing accidents and I was 39 when the first one occured...I would much rather crash on a road race track than the racing surface of Wilmington!!! Especially over 200 mph!!! That surface is SCARY! If you were lucky, you might end up in the grass. But the odds are you would NOT...
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Offline HOS

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Re: Fatalities in LSR
« Reply #165 on: November 23, 2014, 03:50:54 AM »
I don't think there is much comparison to be drawn between pro GP riders and amateur top speed racers tbh.

They are young, lightweight, ultra fit, properly nourished and wear massively expensive custom made safety gear. They are trained in what do do in an off because they do it all the time. They live and breath racing all the time not just race at one or two annual events.

Please, let's not argue about casualties? It's no good to see.
I have no more sh*ts to give.

Offline scott g

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Re: Fatalities in LSR
« Reply #166 on: December 15, 2014, 11:22:27 PM »


Please, let's not argue about casualties?

It's no good to see.



Not good to see arguments......?

Maybe better to just see
the fatalities with no discussion ?

Offline 2fast4u2c

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Re: Fatalities in LSR
« Reply #167 on: January 26, 2015, 07:11:06 AM »
Discussion is a must.  For those of you watching Scott and I banter, we both want the same goals out of our discussions.  No accidents, but in our sport, that would be a stretch.  We both agree on 99% of LSR fatality statistics and facts.  Because Motorcycle pavement LSR is so inherently dangerous, we all must do whatever we can to always look at facts, not fiction or hearsay and analyze them so that future racers can be safer.  discussion is a must.
One day you might all be talking about me and how I crashed (sure hope not) and I would expect you all to analyze all the facts so that whatever information you could gleam would maybe help another racer.  This is one of the reasons I am so open about my build and program.  No secrets, nothing to hide.  If something happens, I want everything accessible for investigative purposes.  I data log every run so the SD chip needs to be recovered.  I will have a camera on board, it also needs To be recovered.  Anyone taking video needs to surrender the video for analysis.
Discussion is a must.

But if I do go, I hope it is spectacular with parts flying and the YouTube goes viral so that for years to come people can see how dangerous our sport is.  Oh, and go ooooh and ahhhh!
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Offline fvance

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Re: Fatalities in LSR
« Reply #168 on: January 26, 2015, 12:41:48 PM »
So Guy when are you going to be ready to make your first run??
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Offline 2fast4u2c

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Re: Fatalities in LSR
« Reply #169 on: January 27, 2015, 06:37:42 AM »
We take her out in May for some rookie passes and slow speed trials.  just need to learn her and handling.  make sure she shifts and brakes.  Work out any bugs this summer.
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Offline entropy

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Re: Fatalities in LSR
« Reply #170 on: January 27, 2015, 06:55:07 AM »
We take her out in May for some rookie passes and slow speed trials.  just need to learn her and handling.  make sure she shifts and brakes.  Work out any bugs this summer.
Guy,
Since yours is an "open build",  could you share what logging system do you have and what channels are you capturing?
3-axis accelerometer?
suspension travel F&R?
multifunction GPS?
F&R-facing cameras?

I only ask bc Bill Warner was my go-to guy for my AIMs system and we talked alot about his logging and analysis processes.  He spent a shitload of time developing his chassis/suspension config before he was able to get max acceleration.
karl
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Offline 2fast4u2c

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Re: Fatalities in LSR
« Reply #171 on: January 27, 2015, 07:48:48 AM »
Karl, you have PM
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Offline speedduck

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Re: Fatalities in LSR
« Reply #172 on: January 27, 2015, 10:22:22 AM »

I only ask bc Bill Warner was my go-to guy for my AIMs system and we talked alot about his logging and analysis processes.  He spent a shitload of time developing his chassis/suspension config before he was able to get max acceleration.
karl
Can you tell some example where could one go wrong adjusting hi-power land speed bike chassis ? Too long ?

Offline entropy

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Re: Fatalities in LSR
« Reply #173 on: January 27, 2015, 11:06:20 AM »

I only ask bc Bill Warner was my go-to guy for my AIMs system and we talked alot about his logging and analysis processes.  He spent a shitload of time developing his chassis/suspension config before he was able to get max acceleration.
karl
Can you tell some example where could one go wrong adjusting hi-power land speed bike chassis ? Too long ?

Mika,
I guess i could think of a possibility or 2 of incorrect chassis/body set up...

swing arm too long - excessive spin
swing arm too short - excessive wheelies
fork caster angle wrong
Swing arm axle too low
linear weight distribution wrong
vertical weight distribution wrong
Center of gravity behind center of pressure
Too much or not enough aerodynamic lift on F wheel
F compression set wrong
F rebound set wrong
R compression set wrong
R rebound set wrong
wheels misaligned
frame misaligned
tire pressures set wrong

From what I saw, Bill spent as much (or more) time on chassis config/tuning as he did on making reliable hp.

IMO achieving 311mph in 1.5 mile is about:
reliable/predictable high power

AND must have
perfect chassis set up

AND must have
perfect riding technique.

karl
« Last Edit: January 27, 2015, 11:08:44 AM by entropy »
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Offline speedduck

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Re: Fatalities in LSR
« Reply #174 on: January 27, 2015, 11:29:11 AM »
Thanks Karl, there is lot`s of variables to think about for amateur land speeder. That`s why i relied on few factory solutions, bodywork, just a little longer, not too low, and of course rear shock bought from acknowledged racer  :D
Result is, it`s trying to wheelie when boost kicks in, but just only floats a little, no problems from side winds.