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Author Topic: Fatalities in LSR  (Read 43295 times)

Offline MJ Williams

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Re: Fatalities in LSR
« Reply #225 on: September 27, 2016, 11:47:15 AM »
Hiro Koiso crashed at the 2016 BMST at 200+ with a suspected front end component failure.
It was a fully faired LSR V-twin that had run 240 earlier in the meet.
People described the debris fields as being over an 1/8 mile long.
Hiro only had some broken fingers and was concussed.
I've fallen off a bicycle and got hurt worse, good on him.
Have a Harley, spent lots of money on it, thought I had a fast motorcycle, bought a Busa, realized all I had was a fast Harley, not a fast motorcycle!

Offline scott g

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Re: Fatalities in LSR
« Reply #226 on: September 28, 2016, 10:18:53 AM »
Hiro Koiso crashed at the 2016 BMST at 200+ with a suspected front end component failure.
It was a fully faired LSR V-twin that had run 240 earlier in the meet.
People described the debris fields as being over an 1/8 mile long.
Hiro only had some broken fingers and was concussed.
I've fallen off a bicycle and got hurt worse, good on him.

Jamie:  I would be excited to know more
about this crash in particular.

IRCC, there was a picture posted showing
the FRONT wheel with blisters, and tread separation.

I have NEVER seen this on a Bonneville motorcycle,
and I would love to know if there is any relationship to the crash.......

Offline MJ Williams

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Re: Fatalities in LSR
« Reply #227 on: September 28, 2016, 11:28:51 AM »
Wrong Williams, Jamie is better looking and..... shorter!
There was an investigation/clean-up at the track for about 1-1/2 hours afterward but nobody was forthcoming with info.
The front end component failure quote came from Hiro's Facebook, beyond that I can't speak to what happen.
Hiro's had a couple hard knock's at Bonneville over the years and I'm glad to see he is well after this one.
Have a Harley, spent lots of money on it, thought I had a fast motorcycle, bought a Busa, realized all I had was a fast Harley, not a fast motorcycle!

Offline scott g

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Re: Fatalities in LSR
« Reply #228 on: September 29, 2016, 09:44:54 AM »
MJ:  You have highlighted one of the problems
with trying to figure out these crashes:

Nobody makes a "formal report."

Most motor racing "accidents" happen
during an "event" of some sort, and are
usually NOT investigated by the "usual suspects,"
like police or highway patrols.

Bill Warner's crash was unusual in that the
local law enforcement agency (to whom I had
offered motorcycle accident investigations training)
did what is called a pretty complete work-up and report.

I have not seen that report, even though I have (twice)
called the police chief and requested a copy.  It very much
seems like they don't want to talk about the crash,
or the results of their investigation.

Another disturbing factor is that THE BIKE knows what happened.

Bill was a real believer in data and analysis. 
His bike was LOADED with sensors and recording capability.

For whatever reason, the on-board data has never been
made public - and I understand has actually never been viewed !

In the face of this "scarcity of data," it is hard to come up
with a definitive answer about what CAUSED the crash !

Many similar racing accidents have the same underlying problems.........


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Re: Fatalities in LSR
« Reply #229 on: September 29, 2016, 04:13:05 PM »
"IRCC, there was a picture posted showing
the FRONT wheel with blisters, and tread separation"

cant comment about Hiros front tire , but had one front delaminate and seen another racer chunk a front tire off centre i am pretty sure it was caused by countersteering a side wind
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Offline joea

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Re: Fatalities in LSR
« Reply #230 on: September 29, 2016, 04:32:25 PM »
it was reported from reliable source to be "triple clamp" failure Re Hiro mishap
ex busa owner
not worthy

Offline scott g

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Re: Fatalities in LSR
« Reply #231 on: September 30, 2016, 10:10:01 AM »
It would be nice to follow up on that............

Offline scott g

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Re: Fatalities in LSR
« Reply #232 on: October 04, 2016, 10:31:07 AM »
In the last few months,
our sport has experienced
several bad crashes.

One was fatal, (Sam Wheeler)
one was near fatal, (Guy Caputo)
and one pretty bad (Brenda Sue Carver).

Let's think about those......

Offline scott g

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Re: Fatalities in LSR
« Reply #233 on: October 04, 2016, 10:35:19 AM »
In ALL THREE crashes, the speeds
attained BEFORE the crashes were
in the neighborhood of 225-250 mph,
so we are dealing with similar speeds.

Sam Wheeler was fully outfitted in his streamliner,
and Guy and Brenda Sue were on sit-on bikes.

Guy remembers on Facebook:


Just for the record. My body work did NOT cause my crash. My air tech streamlining bodywork is the slickest bodywork that you can own for a high-speed motorcycle it was designed to go very fast through the air which it does very well. My crash was caused by a side wind that caused me to lean over where my belly pan rubbed on the asphalt and lifted my tires off the ground. Yes, The bodywork has a lot of square feet of perpendicular side walls that will catch a side wind but I know this and still I took the bike out where the winds were higher than I should of been riding in. This bodywork is specifically designed to slide through the air with a headwind or tail wind but little or no side wins. Everything on my motorcycle worked perfectly and at 20 pounds of boost in 5th at 9600 rpm, the Brock performance calculator suggested that I was at 250 mph+ at the 7/8 mile marker. My Bates leathers and my Bell helmet saved my life. The well trained paramedics of the Wilmington fire Dept kept me alive. Because of the amount of metal in my neck, arms and legs I am no longer able to get into the riding position to ride the flying tiger anymore. The only damage that she incurred was a ground down fuel pump. All I need to do is mount another Bosch 44 fuel pump and it's ready to ride. This crash was my fault and mine alone, no parts, pieces or assemblies of this motorcycle caused my crash, it was me and only me that did it. When you race at ultra high speeds you never know when it's your time. Thanks for all who prayed and wished me well it's because of you that I am doing so well so quickly.

Offline MJ Williams

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Re: Fatalities in LSR
« Reply #234 on: October 04, 2016, 08:04:38 PM »
Thank you posting that.
Have a Harley, spent lots of money on it, thought I had a fast motorcycle, bought a Busa, realized all I had was a fast Harley, not a fast motorcycle!

Offline scott g

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Re: Fatalities in LSR
« Reply #235 on: October 15, 2016, 10:04:03 AM »
Bonneville Champion and long-time LSR
competitor at the highest levels JOE AMO reports he heard
that somebody ran off the end of the Mojave track,
and crashed with many broken bones.

My fastest rider JOHN LEVIE went 289 mph into a
14 mph headwind at the World of Speed last month.

That's over 300mph air speed.

About 6-8 months ago, I asked John if Bonneville
would be viable for the speeds we wanted to go,
 and if we wanted to do some running on pavement.

He said " To run on pavement is to die......"

Offline scott g

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Re: Fatalities in LSR
« Reply #236 on: April 09, 2017, 08:20:37 PM »
2016 report

We had three(3) notable crashes in 2016,
which yielded one highly disappointing
(and to a large degree unexplained)
death of one of motorcycle LSR’s most
revered and experienced racers.

* * * *
The beautiful, talented and entertaining
“Tu Tu Sue” Brenda Sue Carver, found herself
running fast on a preliminary run at Loring.
Brenda is one of the fastest woman riders
in the world, and is especially experienced
and proficient on pavement.

For poorly-understood reasons, Brenda Sue found
 herself drifting her Hayabusa to the side of the track,
and crashing at possibly as fast as 225 mph.


The crash essentially ended the meeting,
Brenda was transported to hospital, and the
injuries resulted in the loss of much of her right leg.

No reliable opinions about the cause of
Carver's accident have been put forward.


* * * *


Guy Caputo, many-times Maxton record holder
and Wilmington Motorcycle Safety Inspector crashed
his Hayabusa at the Ohio track at about 250mph,
as estimated by on-board data.

Informed opinions about the cause(s) are scant,
but Guy and others at the track place most
of the blame on side winds. Fairing design
may have played a part.

Guy was properly dressed, but still suffered
extensive damage to his upper spine which
required fixation, and a still-continuing course
of treatment, almost a year later.

Almost all of Guy'sspinal problems came to his neck area,
and he was not wearing neck protection (See post #).


* * * *


The most troubling crash, and the most disappointing,
was to Sam Wheeler at an early-season race at Bonneville.

Sam’s injuries were eventual fatal in Hospital
after a medivac protocol.

Sam was riding in his world-famous
(and world record-setting) streamliner,
which had been previously timed at over 355mph,
about 10 years ago.

Sam was fully outfitted in protective gear,
 including neck protection. The bike, a result
of 50 years of design and riding experience,
had huge crash protection built in, including
extensive head and neck protection.

At about 2 miles into a practice run, Sam’s ‘liner
lost control and crashed, resulting in
Sam’s eventually-fatal injuries.

The fatal injuries were to the head.

Sam’s “crash speed” of less than 200 mph
left observers stunned, since Sam had previously
crashed the same bike at over 350mph, and walked away.

Qualified safety experts were hugely surprised that
such a relatively slow crash in a streamliner could prove fatal.
At least one expert voiced concern that at the time of the crash,
Sam had not driven the ‘liner in almost 10 years,
and had gained enough weight that he did not properly
fit into the “roll structure” of the bike.

Experts and observers both were puzzled by how
one of the safest motorcycles could allow fatal injuries
to a rider properly dressed and strapped in.

Also unexplained was how a rider with 50 years of Bonneville
riding experience could crash at “half-speed”
on an essentially windless day, with no known mechanical defects.


* * * *

ALL of the above riders were well experienced,
mature adults, and had many passes over
200 mph.


There is a lot we don’t know,
and I suspect there is far more that
we don’t know that we don’t know……………

Offline scott g

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Re: Fatalities in LSR
« Reply #237 on: April 17, 2017, 03:36:21 PM »
So, what might be COMMON FACTORS in the above accidents that
could lead us to preventing further similar problems ?

1) Age ?

All competitors were over 50, and ranged up to the low 70's.

Although age often brings less desire to engage in risk-taking behavior,
it often weakens eyesight, extends reaction time, and is accompanied
by a loss of physical strength and endurance.

Do these factors affect performance ?

How does that fit ?

2)  Experience ? 

ALL the racers had experience, but none were HIGHLY experienced,
as in having made hundreds of high-speed runs.

One might term them as mature, moderately experienced riders.

One benefit of extensive experience is having confronted and surmounted
numerous situations that, without experience, would result in a crash. 

Thus, we would expect that, the more experience,
the more likelihood of avoiding a crash.

Can it be that the TYPE of experience counts
as much or more than mere repetition ?

Speed ?

This was Guy's initial experience with 250mph, and it did not end well for him.
Would having "worked up" by say 5mph steps, repeated several times
(like 230,230,230, 235,235,235, 240,240,240,240 etc have helped ? 

Probably.

How many of us can afford that much expense
in maintenance, track-time, and lack of fulfillment ?

Brenda's speed was not unusual for her, nor was the track environment.

As with Guy, could it have been the wind ?

Can experience overcome wind ?

In spite of having raced at Bonneville for maybe 60 years
(think: 3 generations), Sam Wheeler did not
actually have that many runs at Bonneville,
maybe only an average of 1-2 runs pre year, maybe less. 

Possibly NONE in the preceding 10 years.

How many athletes are at their best
after a ten year layoff, and 10 years older ?

Offline 1 wheel peel

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Re: Fatalities in LSR
« Reply #238 on: April 18, 2017, 09:47:29 AM »
......Another disturbing factor is that THE BIKE knows what happened.

Bill was a real believer in data and analysis. 
His bike was LOADED with sensors and recording capability.

For whatever reason, the on-board data has never been
made public - and I understand has actually never been viewed !
........

Many similar racing accidents have the same underlying problems.........

While admittedly I haven't read all 10 pages of this thread, do we have any idea why it has never been looked at?

Offline scott g

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Re: Fatalities in LSR
« Reply #239 on: May 10, 2017, 12:01:20 PM »
A slight digression, but valuable information:

Recently, five(5) times World Champion Anthony DeHalle (35)
died in a testing crash on his Factory Suzuki GSXR-1000
endurance bike at the Circuit de Nogaro in France.

It was reported that DeHalle was in control of his bike when
the front wheel left the paved track surface onto wet grass,
and he crashed heavily at high speed.  DeHalle dit not hit a wall,
or any obstructions, and was not contacted by the bike.

Cause of death was determined to be a cervical (neck) spinal injury.

Here's some thinking:

At most paved LSR tracks, Goliad, Maxton, Loring, Wilmington,
Beeville, etc, there is no "run-off" area" like in MotoGP,  You just
"drop off" the edge of the pavement, and take your chances.

There is often a "drop off," due to bikes and cars "dipping a wheel,"
and moving the dirt away from the pavement.  This dip can
catch" the front tire, and loss of control follows.

This is the second "bad" accident within maybe 15 months - including that
of Guy Caputo - that involved Cervical spinal injuries. 

Neither rider was using cervical spinal protection.

The car guys use such protection, and have used it for maybe 25 years.

Is it time for HANS devices for motorcycle racing and LSR ?

Offline MJ Williams

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Re: Fatalities in LSR
« Reply #240 on: May 10, 2017, 03:23:35 PM »
Motocross and enduro riders have such a device available and you see more and more top level riders using them, they are starting to make inroads in the roadracing community too.
http://www.leatt.com/shop/braces.html

Simon Edwards from Team Edwards used a type of HANS device at the 2016 BMST.
http://www.scootershoots.com/BUBMotorcycleSpeedTrials/2016-Bonneville-Motorcycle-Speed-Trials/i-9dHLmQw/A
Simon is a P/A in the emergency department of a large hospital in Colorado along with having been a medic that has seen combat duty, so he has seen his fair share of serious neck trauma and has legitimate insight into why someone would use one.

The argument that would come up for LSR is they are un-aerodynamic and will hurt top speed etc. but the same argument was made for back protectors at one time. Until someone gets one in a wind tunnel to get objective numbers we won't know but as I look to doing some roadracing track days this summer I am going to purchase one. 



Have a Harley, spent lots of money on it, thought I had a fast motorcycle, bought a Busa, realized all I had was a fast Harley, not a fast motorcycle!

Offline scott g

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Re: Fatalities in LSR
« Reply #241 on: May 18, 2017, 01:52:26 PM »
Hayden………….

Nicky Hayden……………

Nicky Hayden, MotoGP world champion,
Seriously injured in bicycle traffic accident in eastern Italy.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/othersports/article-4519772/Nicky-Hayden-intensive-care-cycling-accident.html

Ironic that Nicky could have avoided serious injury in nearly three (3) decades of motorcycle racing, including 10 years where almost every race offered top speeds over 200 mph EVERY LAP, every practice session, many weekends per year.

The photo’s in the above article show damage to the vehicles that would be very expectable for a bicycle impact with a car.

The shortening of the bicycle’s wheelbase is consistent with the bicycle directly impacting the car.

The damage to the car windshield attests to an impact by Nicky’s upper body.

The windshield impact was probably the least of Nicky’s injury; the windshield would collapse and receive impact energy from the body and (relatively) slowly dissipate that energy, mitigating injury.

More serious it the damage to the roofline in the center of the car, over the windshield.  This is usually a “hard part” of the car, and resists deformation in an impact.

If Nicky’s head hit the roofline, that could easily be the most serious injury of the whole impact.

We respect Nicky, and wish him well……….

Offline scott g

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Re: Fatalities in LSR
« Reply #242 on: May 18, 2017, 01:59:44 PM »

Offline scott g

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Re: Fatalities in LSR
« Reply #243 on: June 05, 2017, 11:00:15 AM »
Hurt for no reason.

Died for no reason.

Survived 200 races for this ?

The beat goes on………..

*             *          *          *          *

Known to racers and knowledgeable insiders,
the accidental death toll for racers hurt while NOT racing
is incredibly higher that to be expected.

Racers rarely die of old age in their beds.

Whether Bonneville 200 MPH Club members,
Or Indianapolis 500 racers, the toll is high,
MUCH more than for “average” folks…………..

Is it that we are just highly “risk takers?”

The answer is yes.

Is it that if not going 200 mph,
we think life is just a breeze ? 

Maybe so..

*                  *               *           *

Thought by many to be the best motorcycle road racer
who ever lived, MIKE HAILWOOD died in a street crash in 1974.

Hailwood died following a street crash when his car struck
and illegally-turning truck near his home in England.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mike_Hailwood

http://www.independent.co.uk/sport/motor-racing/mike-the-bike-rides-again-the-tragic-story-of-mike-hailwood-told-in-new-documentary-9215572.html

Hailwood's crash, almost 50 years earlier than
Nicky Hayden’s crash in Italy, is remarkably similar.

1)  Both lost lives in street accidents.

2)  Both victims of illegal turns,

3)  Both crashes at reduced urban speeds.

4)  Both completely avoidable

Why these crashes occurred to men of such
stunning riding talent is the real surprise.

Some clue to “mind set” is offered by the circumstances
of the horrible Bubba Shobert crash at Leguna Seca in 1989.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TIt3bLNb9Y8

http://articles.latimes.com/1991-04-25/sports/sp-1185_1_motor-racing

Perhaps the common thread is that Riders of stunning talent
were just not paying enough attention to situations that
(as it would prove) were more deadly than
anything they had experienced while racing.

One suspects that these men certainly had the vehicle skills,
mental abilities, eyesight and experience to “predict” when
there would appear a threat on the highway that could turn into a disaster.

In other words, they should have been able to avoid the accidents
that claimed them, if they had just applied and used
those skills that had made them champions……..


What were they thinking...........?

           

Online FlaminRoo

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Re: Fatalities in LSR
« Reply #244 on: June 05, 2017, 07:29:27 PM »
As racers we often hear comment from folks on how dangerous it is to do what we do, if only thay realized just "How Dangerous" a drive to the supermarket is,,
First Australian to ride a motorcycle 200mph at Bonneville,,

Offline scott g

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Re: Fatalities in LSR
« Reply #245 on: June 06, 2017, 08:22:26 AM »
I was reminded of MICHAEL SCHUMACHER, the great F1 driver.

Schumacher, who has won more F1 driver’s championships
than anyone else, suffered catastrophic brain injuries while downhill skiing. 

Details of the accident are late in the below article.

Schumacher’s lifetime history in racing:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_Schumacher

Reading down this article will bring your attention to
Schumacher’s interest in helmets, and their design. 
Schumacher was no stranger to the concepts of “head safety.”

It has been reported that when asked if he might crown his career
by running in the Indianapolis 500 race, Schumacher declined,
saying that “Indy it too dangerous.”

A man who understood his limits,
and was careful(usually) about his life………


Offline scott g

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Re: Fatalities in LSR
« Reply #246 on: June 06, 2017, 08:40:35 AM »
My basis for making some of these observations
 is my experience and training in SAFETY,
a career I have pursued since my
first paycheck in the spring of 1963.

More than 50 years.

My bachelors and masters degrees were in safety,
as was my PhD work in the 1970’s.  At the PhD level,
I specialized in Motorcycle Safety
(and yes, I know that’s an oxymoron).

Principles about safety could include:

1)    Real risk vs Perceived risk.

2)    Risk assessment vs Risk acceptance.

In the first, we could maybe put the public’s view to racing
down a deserted road (or airport runway) at over 200 mph
as having HIGH perceived risk. 

Yet these same folks would not hesitate to fly on an airliner
 with a takeoff speed over 200 mph. 

That’s the “perceived” part. 

In the second of the pair of principles, we could put Michael Schumacher: 
He was quite familiar with Formula one racing, and found that risk acceptable. 
He also felt comfortable with thinking that “Indy racing” was NOT acceptable. 

For many of us, the problems start to grow when we are in an area
that we are unfamiliar with, like when downhill skiing that becomes
 “cross country skiing” for Schumacher. 

And we accept risks that we are unaware of………………….