Another question for the engine Gurus...

[SLEEPERBUSA]

I'll talk about the intake side only, first, because if my thinking is messed up, no sense to continue typing.

 My current setup is 1441cc at about 12.7 final compression, Carpenter head, .443 cam @ 111.0 CL.
VTP clearance currently is .084" @ 9.8ATDC
This combo is not working for me.
I am asking for you to review my numbers and see if my thinking is on, or am I out in left field?
I want a bit more compression, and I think these new cams will help me accomplish that.
I'll do the intake first.
Current setup. .443"
New cams.     -.415"
Will net me    .028" more VTP
Add that to   .084" and I will then have .112"VTP

Change from .030" head gasket
To                 .018" head gasket
Remove B/G  .010"
and I lose      .022" total

That tells me that if I get my VTP clearance to .112" and then lose the gaskets thickness of .022" total, I'll gain compression and still have .090" VTP clearance, which is .006" more than I currently have..

Input please. 

 

[sportbikeryder]

That's a big cam.

The smaller cam probably will dwell at max lift a little longer, possibly making the min PTV at a different crank angle.
you really can't just add things together and hope it will work, you need to mock it up and measure the mins.

What do you mean by "not working for you"? Where is the Tq and HP peak with that setup? Probably above 10,500 rpm.

[SLEEPERBUSA]

Here is the 1441 compared to my stock motored bike on MR12.

[fvance]

The 216hp is the 1441??

[SLEEPERBUSA]

Yessir.

[entropy]

who the hell built that pussy motor

you know my thoughts, and i'm thinking that you gotta decide what yr objective is.

1. is it a street bike, gonna run street gas? 

2. are you gonna spray it hard?  on street or 1/4mile or 1 mile tracks?

answer those questions, THEN design the internals.

For me 216hp @ 12.7:1 CR, pumpgas is about right +/-

If yr gonna spray it, i wouldn't bother screwing with cams.

[SLEEPERBUSA]

I have NO issue with the assembly at all. I know the guy pretty good. It's not coming apart.
Johnny beat on it pretty good on the dyno, and it lived thru that, so i'm good there. 

I have 3 issues with this motor,and they may not be logical to anyone but me, but this is them.
1st is the fact that over 5 years ago, I had a 1397 that went thru a home made header that made over 212/115. It's hard to believe that this larger motor is supposed to make the same HP. GENII design, larger cams and a real header.

2nd is, it's hard for me to see that chart where a STOCK motor on MR12 kicked it's ass till 7,400rpms.

3rd is it follows the stock HP and TQ curve like a mirror.
I have had 2 prior Carpenter head cam packages that Johnny had to extend the ecu because the power was still rising when it hit the rev limiter.
Ive decided to put this engine in my streetbike with smaller cams, in hopes that the HP/TQ picks up. Too many people have told me that these big cams will beat up the valve train on the street. So while I was there, I wanted to bump up the compression at the same time. I'm gonna have a large motor built for the drag bike.
 

[05calibusa]

I gotta say that those dyno numbers are depressing.  My buddy built a 1397, with a ported head and two stock intake cams set to 106/106 and peak hp was 215 at 11.5K.  BTW, his dyno run was using Chevron 91 octane pump gas. 

This thread is of particular interest to me because I am in the process of putting a 1441 together and I am expecting at least 220hp.  If I can only pull 216hp with the 1441, then I pretty much wasted all of that $$$ on the crank...could be put to better use.

[sportbikeryder]

I gotta say that those dyno numbers are depressing.  My buddy built a 1397, with a ported head and two stock intake cams set to 106/106 and peak hp was 215 at 11.5K.  BTW, his dyno run was using Chevron 91 octane pump gas. 

This thread is of particular interest to me because I am in the process of putting a 1441 together and I am expecting at least 220hp.  If I can only pull 216hp with the 1441, then I pretty much wasted all of that $$$ on the crank...could be put to better use.

Really? 220hp and you will be content, but 216hp and you will feel you wasted all that money?

4HP is only a 1.9% difference in power. If you are that hung up a dyno reading that is 4hp difference, you will probably be better suited to get into a new hobby.

[05calibusa]

I gotta say that those dyno numbers are depressing.  My buddy built a 1397, with a ported head and two stock intake cams set to 106/106 and peak hp was 215 at 11.5K.  BTW, his dyno run was using Chevron 91 octane pump gas. 

This thread is of particular interest to me because I am in the process of putting a 1441 together and I am expecting at least 220hp.  If I can only pull 216hp with the 1441, then I pretty much wasted all of that $$$ on the crank...could be put to better use.

Really? 220hp and you will be content, but 216hp and you will feel you wasted all that money?

4HP is only a 1.9% difference in power. If you are that hung up a dyno reading that is 4hp difference, you will probably be better suited to get into a new hobby.

I said that I am expecting "at least 220hp"...hoping for much more, and YES if I can only get the same 216hp with 1441 that I could with 1397, then the crank IS wasted money in my book.  You might be good at building bikes, but maybe not so good at finance and ROI.  I intend to be good at both, so I will keep my "hobby".  I wonder why Sleeper posted in the first place...proably not happy with 216hp on his 1441.   

[SLEEPERBUSA]

Yep, not happy with the final outcome.
212hp 5 years ago with a smaller motor.
Fast forward 5 years, bigger motor, supposed to be a better head design, and $6,000 to get the same results?   
So, The main reason that I posted is,
I'm stuck with what I have. OK...
BUT, I wanna make it the best I can. People tell me now that the cams are too big and will eat up the valve train on the street, so the question I have is,
does anyone think the .415/.395 will be a better match for this combination, and will tightening up the gaskets help also?

Current cams are .443/.425

[05calibusa]

I'm with you brother...I will have $6G's in mine too when all is said and done, and no turning back on the crank either.  I hope you can find the issue.

[sportbikeryder]

Yep, not happy with the final outcome.
212hp 5 years ago with a smaller motor.
Fast forward 5 years, bigger motor, supposed to be a better head design, and $6,000 to get the same results?   

does anyone think the .415/.395 will be a better match for this combination, and will tightening up the gaskets help also?

Current cams are .443/.425

the smaller cams (as well as degreeing them more for bottom end) will probably increase the bottom end, but you likely aren't going to gain up top.

I would try setting your intake to about 106 or so and see what that does for you. It's easy enough to try.

I have never seen any big gains by putting in a slightly stroked crank. If you go big, sure, there is gain, but increasing displacement by stroke never seems to add as much power as by bore.

I'd runt eh bike with less advanced intake timing and with the MR12 and see how it does before spending any more money on parts. 

Is that .443 the cam Carpenter recommended with that setup?

Do you have a sidewinder on this bike by chance?

[fvance]

Chris both my motors have the 443/425 cams the low comp.(13-1) 1340 are degreed 110/112. Tight squish .032. gen 2 pistons.

[speedduck]

I have been in that situation several times, new parts are "bigger" but power gain is very modest or nothing at all. There is always place for good advice from experienced engine builders. But if you want to make it look like yours and feel you have made it work, then maybe you should just continue testing little changes at a time.
Why is your lobe center so high ? It drops already low compression when intake closes so late. Can you get CR over 13 ?
How much valve spring pressure ? I would keep that .443" and run it with 55lbs springs. It may wear in time, but are you driving coast to coast every week.
I`ll bet that Carpenter head can handle that cam.
VTP .090" is plenty, for intake. I have used .042", but then it should work like a clock, .060" is adequate.

[SLEEPERBUSA]

Well, here's another deal.
I have 2 bikes, 2 engines.
I am going to go ahead and run this one in my streetbike.
I've already ordered the cams, so my asking as mainly conversation and to see if my thinking was ok, because I want abit more compression, but VTP is at what I understood, the minimum already.
I don't like the cam that I got from Carpenter, because he sent me a GENI cam and I had to buy the Brock pin to make it work. I have also had several people tell me that the pin could be causing a HP loss also. I am taking the pin out of the equassion. That cam is sold.
I will be using the stock motor and having it built. This engine is important, as I want all of my stuff to fly, but the next one will be the builders complete design. I'm gonna give it to him and keep MY hands out of it, as I am NOT a builder or designer.

I just break shit!

Thanks greatly for everyone's input. Feel free to continue. I am always willing to try to learn something.

[fvance]

Chris, I hope the builder is JC or Knecum!! MR12 Would give you close to 225hp with the present setup.

[SLEEPERBUSA]

Yes,
Johnny has built all of my motors up until now. I am very happy with all he has done and will continue to do.
I've talked to Steve about doing my next engine.
 

I bought parts for this motor. Parts that "I" thought would work.

I want the next one to be a complete Knecum design. The only thing that I will give him is the crank, and hopefully he can use the .425 exhaust cam that I already have. If NOT, that's ok. I want this to be his design and build.   

[entropy]

..., but VTP is at what I understood, the minimum already...

if i'm looking at the right build info (i gave you the notes, but have some info in my build worksheets)

yr intake   min PTV = .084"@9.8aTDC, int cam CL = 111.0, ave int shim size = 266

yr exhaust min PTV = .060"@8.5bTDC, exh cam CL = 112.5, ave exh shim size = 303

Like speedduck says, yr min int PTV @ .084" has plenty of clearance.

But min exhaust PTV @ .060" is about as low as i like to go when measuring only one valve.

As you know, I believe you could gain significant hp by simply jacking up CR.
But with yr tight exh PTV, you can't safely incr CR by going from .030" to a .018" HG unless you sink the exhaust seats.

Mr. streetbikeguy feels that trying lower cam CL's is worth doing.
I 110% agree with him (as usual  ), and you could likely get to 106 on intake while keeping .040" or more on min int PTV.
But exhaust PTV is already about as tight as i'd go.

If I were you, I'd prob sink the exh seats.
how much?
Here it gets interesting bc sinking the seats lowers the CR and you need more CR, not less 

if it were me, i wouldn't fret about 5-10hp, wouldn't even take the valve cover off.
I'd spray it like you originally planned.

[entropy]

Chris,
on a related note, you were concerned about the hp curve nosing over at 11k, whereas yr 1397 kept climbing.

FWIW, my 1635 with stock TB's nosed over at 11.2, whereas on my other 1635 with OS TB's & bigger cams, the hp was still strongly climbing at 11.5. 
go figure.

I spent 3 years and a fukken boat load of cash getting the "last 5-10hp"outa my Zx12.
In the end, i got that hp but i learned my lesson...

karl

[SLEEPERBUSA]

Too late. Valve cover is off, cam has been shipped. New cams ordered.
Like I said, i'm gonna go ahead and use the engine......almost.........like it is now. Just a couple small changes. Even if I don't change the head gasket to the .018, the cams and valve springe are getting changed,  I seem to be riding this bike more than I first thought i would.. I don't ride long distance, but I don't want problems later, so i'll make that change before I use it.
Karl, those numbers are what you gave me too. I was under the impression that if you moved the CL numbers down, the VTP got closer, so I didn't even  consider using the cams and moving them, another reason I opted for abit less lift on trhe new cams. This engine WILL get ran. I decided not to tear the bottom end down. You put way too many hours in to help me, for me to just bring it home and take it apart. Tweaking is one thing. Taking it apart is another.

[entropy]

Too late. Valve cover is off, cam has been shipped. New cams ordered.
Like I said, i'm gonna go ahead and use the engine......almost.........like it is now. Just a couple small changes. Even if I don't change the head gasket to the .018, the cams and valve springe are getting changed,  I seem to be riding this bike more than I first thought i would.. I don't ride long distance, but I don't want problems later, so i'll make that change before I use it.
Karl, those numbers are what you gave me too. I was under the impression that if you moved the CL numbers down, the VTP got closer, so I didn't even  consider using the cams and moving them, another reason I opted for abit less lift on trhe new cams. This engine WILL get ran. I decided not to tear the bottom end down. You put way too many hours in to help me, for me to just bring it home and take it apart. Tweaking is one thing. Taking it apart is another.

yes indeed, if CL numbers get lower, the min PTV gets smaller.

what springs are you putting in it?  You for sure don't want to go too soft.

Is the motor on the bench?  Have you pulled the head?

[SLEEPERBUSA]

I don't know which springs. Bill is getting them for me to match the cams.
The motor is still in the other bike. I just got the cam out because it sold. I'll be getting it out within the next couple of weeks when the cams come in.

[speedduck]

Just wondering, how it is possible to have exhaust PTV so close with 12.7 comp and 112.5 CL 
My friend has a head that was made by somebody who mostly does heads for car engines, he opened up the chamber too much and after that never could get the CR right, it flows great though.

[knecum]

So just take the .030 out and install .018... No don't do it !! How much is deck?  PTH? Rocked up on ex side, block torqued down!!

[SLEEPERBUSA]

Ok,
I'll check that.

[STREETDRAG]

I will bump in to say this. A true package is a combination of matched parts by a person not just a bunch of parts from what worked in different combos best to build a combination, that never works... I tell folks when you build a motor give me the purpose your building the motor, what your usage for motor will be, how fast are you realistically trying to go and are you planning to use an adder to get there?  Once you get this down you build a motor with those reasons in mind. I'm gonna shoot from the hip here without alot of info on your build but just seeing some of your post about this motor.  Your original plan was to spray the house down, and with the parts you got the build started and went the path you set out on. The motor was built and if all the #'s are right and tune is good, you got just what you asked for and the equations are correct. You never used the motor to it's full potential that it was built for cause you want stock motor nos power on motor and then wanted to spray the house down but never did. If you had set up the nitrous like build was intended for the motor would have lasted and it would have been a beast to beat on spray.. The crank would have given you the torque, the spray would have added torque and the hp would have been unbelievable how fast the bike was once moving. You now will never know that potential. Now your starting over cause you wanna find that magic # motor wise but you have to build the motor in the fashion now to get that power and can add to it with some nitrous but won't be able to use as much cause you want more power to start with without the gas and then add it when you want to go super fast.. You actually end up in the end with a little less hp and torque overall and spent more money for no reason.. It's like a half full or half empty glass, you get to the bottom in the same amount of gulps no matter how you look at it...  I'm not busting your balls but hope you get what I'm saying... It's like building a 1397 turbo motor cause you want more power off boost, but then decide I want to just run the 1397. It's a 1397 regardless but it won't ever make the power a purpose built 1397 will unless you spray it or add the power adder. I hope you get it...

I feel the disgust you have. I have built a budget 1397 for a guy( HE TOLD ME WHAT HE COULD SPEND UP FRONT TOTAL), woessner pistons, bored stock block, a special cleaned up stock head not hogged out, and 385 cams. The bike made 206 on a shinko spinning the tire no mater how I strapped it...The bike was setup on the dyno to allow a little richness for when it actually went on the road. I did another one guy wanted max hp on dyno his made 220, and the other bike ran over him no matter what he did. A dyno is a tuning tool and the # is a representation of a measurement. real world is where it's at. I bet some tweaking and some nitrous and you would have had more than you ever wanted and it would have been safe for a long time..

Too late. Valve cover is off, cam has been shipped. New cams ordered.
Like I said, i'm gonna go ahead and use the engine......almost.........like it is now. Just a couple small changes. Even if I don't change the head gasket to the .018, the cams and valve springe are getting changed,  I seem to be riding this bike more than I first thought i would.. I don't ride long distance, but I don't want problems later, so i'll make that change before I use it.
Karl, those numbers are what you gave me too. I was under the impression that if you moved the CL numbers down, the VTP got closer, so I didn't even  consider using the cams and moving them, another reason I opted for abit less lift on trhe new cams. This engine WILL get ran. I decided not to tear the bottom end down. You put way too many hours in to help me, for me to just bring it home and take it apart. Tweaking is one thing. Taking it apart is another.

[SLEEPERBUSA]

A lot of what you say is accurate.    
I wanted more motor HP and was dissapointed that I didn't get it.
The short version to the long story is this.
The motor is going in the streetbike(my original intention). It will probably still get the shit sprayed out of it(my original intention), same arm, same header.
My original plan was to have a fastass streetbike. I am 51 now and the last Busa I had, I only put 800 miles on it in a year, so I didn't plan on riding all that much, so the tall cams and heavy spring pressure probably would have not hurt a bunch.
The difference is, I have been riding the hell out of this bike. It's a lot more fun than the last bike. I am riding with some guys that like to get out at night and burn up the streets. I've kicked all of their asses and now THEY are wanting to go faster. I love that.
I was told by some very reputable folks here that I WOULD wreck the valve train if I ride with these springs a lot on the street, so I'm going with less spring and smaller cams. I was asking about the smaller cams making better compression, and having clearence because I have to remove the head in order to replace the valve springs, so if I could bump a little more in it while I was there, I would. TOO MUCH POWER IS STILL NEVER ENOUGH.......

I am fine with just changing the cams and valve springs and riding the wheels off of it. 

I appreciate everyone's input. 

[STREETDRAG]

A lot of what you say is accurate.    
I wanted more motor HP and was dissapointed that I didn't get it.
The short version to the long story is this.
The motor is going in the streetbike(my original intention). It will probably still get the shit sprayed out of it(my original intention), same arm, same header.
My original plan was to have a fastass streetbike. I am 51 now and the last Busa I had, I only put 800 miles on it in a year, so I didn't plan on riding all that much, so the tall cams and heavy spring pressure probably would have not hurt a bunch.
The difference is, I have been riding the hell out of this bike. It's a lot more fun than the last bike. I am riding with some guys that like to get out at night and burn up the streets. I've kicked all of their asses and now THEY are wanting to go faster. I love that.
I was told by some very reputable folks here that I WOULD wreck the valve train if I ride with these springs a lot on the street, so I'm going with less spring and smaller cams. I was asking about the smaller cams making better compression, and having clearence because I have to remove the head in order to replace the valve springs, so if I could bump a little more in it while I was there, I would. TOO MUCH POWER IS STILL NEVER ENOUGH.......

I am fine with just changing the cams and valve springs and riding the wheels off of it. 

I appreciate everyone's input. 

Cool....

[Competition CNC]

Chris,

Our pump gas builds with Busa and zx14 engines are from .150 to .158 hp per cc depending on how we want to deliver the torque curve.
These engines start on 1 battery and run on pump gas or mr12.  Daily drivers.

Once we get away from the pump gas requirement we can build a Busa or zx14 engine up to .175 hp per cc.
The engine size doesn't matter.

We have 220+ hp 1340 Busa motors out there (Sims Bonneville motor) and 297 hp 1696cc Busa engines out there.  These are dyno-jet 250i hp numbers that the customer will actually see.   DJ 150's will read higher as will the MJP dynos.

All the parts are part of the equation.  Selecting the right ports and cams for a build is the most critical and difficult part. The wrong port and cam selection can cost you 15-25 hp and gobs of torque.

Good luck with your build Chris.

[glenn71]

Interesting read,i noticed a few points,no where near enough compression for those cams,work out your dynamic compression of those cams at those lobe centres,then you wont be surprised why i wont pull back a well oiled foreskin under 6000rpm.Secondly,theres a very active thread on big cams chewing out buckets on streetbikes,yet 440+ cams are suggested as street cams for a 1441?A cam that big has to have bigger duration to calm the ramp rate,which kills bottom end again,or way aggressive ramp rates for streetable duration which flogs the valve train with big spring pressures to control it all.395/378 webs or megacycle cams similar size,106/108 dial in,chase 13.2-13.5:1 comp,leave the stock length stacks in there,and trim timing if needed on pump.Dont kid yourself that 12.7:1 comp with cams that big,dialled that high would be nice to ride on the street unless you add 5 teeth to the back sprocket.My 1441 had 12.7:1 with 105/107 for 395/378 cams and it went no better than a stock 1340 under 5000rpm and made 213-215hp 120ft/lbs.If that motor had 13.5:1 comp,it would have been far nicer to street ride,i could easily run that at 12.7:1 on your 91octane fuel.And finally,this single battery 12volt start engine selling point,lol,forget about it,run 2 lithium ion batteries,one after the relay,before the starter,its only 4lbs total and run your intake lobe centre nice and low around 106 and itll ALWAYS start,i spent 1.5 yrs stressing mine would start at 12.7:1 on one battery,gen1,s,24volts and your stress evaporates,gen2,s are better on 12volts but still,dont stress,just 24volts and youll forget its a problem.Do some research on oils,valve spring pressures,street idle rpms for good hot oil pressure,etc etc,etc if you want all those fancy big ticket items to live,instead of chew each other out,devil is in the detail dude,not glossy brochures and hype.Great motors are out there,and they are dearer than the sum of their parts for a reason,pay someone with referalls and be honest about how you wish to use it and youll be broke,but happier,lol.

[SLEEPERBUSA]

UPDATE....
As stated here earlier, just because you buy good parts, doesn't mean any combo will automaticly work.
Previously the engine made 216-217ish, hp, and 115Tq. The same day, within a couple of hours we put it on the dyno with about a 6" over arm and longer, heavier chain, and it dropped to 208hp. Today it made 216hp again on pump gas, but still with the arm/chain combo when it made 208hp.
Then we added MR12 and Johnny tuned in 9 more hp, to make 225.1hp, and 126.6Tq.
 Now, the only change that was made were the cams. We went to the Web .415/.395, and took out the Carpenter/Megacycle .443/.425.
Now I don't know if these cams are the "right" profile for this engine, but I know that they are MORE right than the others for THIS combination.

[entropy]

Chris,
EXCELLENT!  I am glad you found the missing hp, and presumably the set up is still "optimum" for 100shot. 
KDudley.

[knecum]

One thing to.remember is a dyno is just a tool, just because it makes more power on the dyno many times doesn't run as good on the track .. that's a fact.

[SLEEPERBUSA]

Yessir, I got that.
 I hope to be at the track on Friday night. Wish me luck. 
Thanks Karl. You da MAN! 

[Johnnnycheese]

Chris,
EXCELLENT!  I am glad you found the missing hp, and presumably the set up is still "optimum" for 100shot. 
KDudley.

swaped camsand springs only, still with a .030 head gasket sweet build who ever build this

[SLEEPERBUSA]

Yep!

[SLEEPERBUSA]

I went to another dyno today at Third Coast Speed, just as a comparison.
Mike is a real nice guy and is always willing to help.
His dyno is abit more friendly, but I was just curious as to what it would say. He actually complimented Johnny's tune.

I think I like Mike's dyno better than Johnny's...   

[canadian john]

Nice  power, 

[knecum]

I went to another dyno today at Third Coast Speed, just as a comparison.
Mike is a real nice guy and is always willing to help.
His dyno is abit more friendly, but I was just curious as to what it would say. He actually complimented Johnny's tune.

I think I like Mike's dyno better than Johnny's...   

.  Little lean no?  13.3. ?  Is that where you tune them to?  I shoot for 12.7-12.9

[SLEEPERBUSA]

Yessir. All I had Mike at Third Coast do is make a couple of pulls for a reading.
Johnny will finish the tune when I bring it back. We ran out of time.
It's 12am and I just took it for a ride.
This thing is fast! 

[SLEEPERBUSA]

Here's the 1441 W/.443/.425, blue
1441 W/.415/.395, red
1441 W.415/.395 W MR12, pink.
I ran a 5.82 at 127.7 last night suited at 250pounds.
A little more weight off and seat time and i'll be solid in the 8s every time I launch this thing!
Thanks Karl for the solid build and Johnny for the great tune, as always.
As Steve said, the tune need a touch up top. We just ran out of time, but Johnny's gonna touch it up when I get my nitrous tune. 

[sportbikeryder]

I went to another dyno today at Third Coast Speed, just as a comparison.
Mike is a real nice guy and is always willing to help.
His dyno is abit more friendly, but I was just curious as to what it would say. He actually complimented Johnny's tune.

I think I like Mike's dyno better than Johnny's...   

Now there is a perfect example of why we don;t race dyno's....that's a big difference.

There you go Johnny, Tune them on your dyno, then send them over to Third Coast for the final pull. 

 

[SLEEPERBUSA]

Hahahahahaha.
Yep,
I've been with Johnny since the beginning and that's not gonna change.
Mike is also a hell of a tuner and a great guy!!!
His dyno reads abit higher than Johnny's, so I tend to believe Johnny's numbers more. I just wanted a comparison, so he made those pulls for me.
I agree John, dyno numbers are not the ultimate result. It's the difference between when you show up, and when you leave.
I have sent my friends to both places to get tuned, and everyone so far has been happy with both places.

[glenn71]

who to believe is an easy one.Punch into a hp calculator, your weather conditions,whatever percentage power you get,multiply your sae corrected dyno number by that.Then use a drag strip hp calculator and punch in your best mph and total weight,thatll tell you how much hp its really making as an average in the run.Whoevers dyno is closest to that is telling the smallest lies,lol.Then track tune