Another question for the engine Gurus...

[SLEEPERBUSA]

Ok,
I'll check that.

[STREETDRAG]

I will bump in to say this. A true package is a combination of matched parts by a person not just a bunch of parts from what worked in different combos best to build a combination, that never works... I tell folks when you build a motor give me the purpose your building the motor, what your usage for motor will be, how fast are you realistically trying to go and are you planning to use an adder to get there?  Once you get this down you build a motor with those reasons in mind. I'm gonna shoot from the hip here without alot of info on your build but just seeing some of your post about this motor.  Your original plan was to spray the house down, and with the parts you got the build started and went the path you set out on. The motor was built and if all the #'s are right and tune is good, you got just what you asked for and the equations are correct. You never used the motor to it's full potential that it was built for cause you want stock motor nos power on motor and then wanted to spray the house down but never did. If you had set up the nitrous like build was intended for the motor would have lasted and it would have been a beast to beat on spray.. The crank would have given you the torque, the spray would have added torque and the hp would have been unbelievable how fast the bike was once moving. You now will never know that potential. Now your starting over cause you wanna find that magic # motor wise but you have to build the motor in the fashion now to get that power and can add to it with some nitrous but won't be able to use as much cause you want more power to start with without the gas and then add it when you want to go super fast.. You actually end up in the end with a little less hp and torque overall and spent more money for no reason.. It's like a half full or half empty glass, you get to the bottom in the same amount of gulps no matter how you look at it...  I'm not busting your balls but hope you get what I'm saying... It's like building a 1397 turbo motor cause you want more power off boost, but then decide I want to just run the 1397. It's a 1397 regardless but it won't ever make the power a purpose built 1397 will unless you spray it or add the power adder. I hope you get it...

I feel the disgust you have. I have built a budget 1397 for a guy( HE TOLD ME WHAT HE COULD SPEND UP FRONT TOTAL), woessner pistons, bored stock block, a special cleaned up stock head not hogged out, and 385 cams. The bike made 206 on a shinko spinning the tire no mater how I strapped it...The bike was setup on the dyno to allow a little richness for when it actually went on the road. I did another one guy wanted max hp on dyno his made 220, and the other bike ran over him no matter what he did. A dyno is a tuning tool and the # is a representation of a measurement. real world is where it's at. I bet some tweaking and some nitrous and you would have had more than you ever wanted and it would have been safe for a long time..

Too late. Valve cover is off, cam has been shipped. New cams ordered.
Like I said, i'm gonna go ahead and use the engine......almost.........like it is now. Just a couple small changes. Even if I don't change the head gasket to the .018, the cams and valve springe are getting changed,  I seem to be riding this bike more than I first thought i would.. I don't ride long distance, but I don't want problems later, so i'll make that change before I use it.
Karl, those numbers are what you gave me too. I was under the impression that if you moved the CL numbers down, the VTP got closer, so I didn't even  consider using the cams and moving them, another reason I opted for abit less lift on trhe new cams. This engine WILL get ran. I decided not to tear the bottom end down. You put way too many hours in to help me, for me to just bring it home and take it apart. Tweaking is one thing. Taking it apart is another.

[SLEEPERBUSA]

A lot of what you say is accurate.    
I wanted more motor HP and was dissapointed that I didn't get it.
The short version to the long story is this.
The motor is going in the streetbike(my original intention). It will probably still get the shit sprayed out of it(my original intention), same arm, same header.
My original plan was to have a fastass streetbike. I am 51 now and the last Busa I had, I only put 800 miles on it in a year, so I didn't plan on riding all that much, so the tall cams and heavy spring pressure probably would have not hurt a bunch.
The difference is, I have been riding the hell out of this bike. It's a lot more fun than the last bike. I am riding with some guys that like to get out at night and burn up the streets. I've kicked all of their asses and now THEY are wanting to go faster. I love that.
I was told by some very reputable folks here that I WOULD wreck the valve train if I ride with these springs a lot on the street, so I'm going with less spring and smaller cams. I was asking about the smaller cams making better compression, and having clearence because I have to remove the head in order to replace the valve springs, so if I could bump a little more in it while I was there, I would. TOO MUCH POWER IS STILL NEVER ENOUGH.......

I am fine with just changing the cams and valve springs and riding the wheels off of it. 

I appreciate everyone's input. 

[STREETDRAG]

A lot of what you say is accurate.    
I wanted more motor HP and was dissapointed that I didn't get it.
The short version to the long story is this.
The motor is going in the streetbike(my original intention). It will probably still get the shit sprayed out of it(my original intention), same arm, same header.
My original plan was to have a fastass streetbike. I am 51 now and the last Busa I had, I only put 800 miles on it in a year, so I didn't plan on riding all that much, so the tall cams and heavy spring pressure probably would have not hurt a bunch.
The difference is, I have been riding the hell out of this bike. It's a lot more fun than the last bike. I am riding with some guys that like to get out at night and burn up the streets. I've kicked all of their asses and now THEY are wanting to go faster. I love that.
I was told by some very reputable folks here that I WOULD wreck the valve train if I ride with these springs a lot on the street, so I'm going with less spring and smaller cams. I was asking about the smaller cams making better compression, and having clearence because I have to remove the head in order to replace the valve springs, so if I could bump a little more in it while I was there, I would. TOO MUCH POWER IS STILL NEVER ENOUGH.......

I am fine with just changing the cams and valve springs and riding the wheels off of it. 

I appreciate everyone's input. 

Cool....

[Competition CNC]

Chris,

Our pump gas builds with Busa and zx14 engines are from .150 to .158 hp per cc depending on how we want to deliver the torque curve.
These engines start on 1 battery and run on pump gas or mr12.  Daily drivers.

Once we get away from the pump gas requirement we can build a Busa or zx14 engine up to .175 hp per cc.
The engine size doesn't matter.

We have 220+ hp 1340 Busa motors out there (Sims Bonneville motor) and 297 hp 1696cc Busa engines out there.  These are dyno-jet 250i hp numbers that the customer will actually see.   DJ 150's will read higher as will the MJP dynos.

All the parts are part of the equation.  Selecting the right ports and cams for a build is the most critical and difficult part. The wrong port and cam selection can cost you 15-25 hp and gobs of torque.

Good luck with your build Chris.

[glenn71]

Interesting read,i noticed a few points,no where near enough compression for those cams,work out your dynamic compression of those cams at those lobe centres,then you wont be surprised why i wont pull back a well oiled foreskin under 6000rpm.Secondly,theres a very active thread on big cams chewing out buckets on streetbikes,yet 440+ cams are suggested as street cams for a 1441?A cam that big has to have bigger duration to calm the ramp rate,which kills bottom end again,or way aggressive ramp rates for streetable duration which flogs the valve train with big spring pressures to control it all.395/378 webs or megacycle cams similar size,106/108 dial in,chase 13.2-13.5:1 comp,leave the stock length stacks in there,and trim timing if needed on pump.Dont kid yourself that 12.7:1 comp with cams that big,dialled that high would be nice to ride on the street unless you add 5 teeth to the back sprocket.My 1441 had 12.7:1 with 105/107 for 395/378 cams and it went no better than a stock 1340 under 5000rpm and made 213-215hp 120ft/lbs.If that motor had 13.5:1 comp,it would have been far nicer to street ride,i could easily run that at 12.7:1 on your 91octane fuel.And finally,this single battery 12volt start engine selling point,lol,forget about it,run 2 lithium ion batteries,one after the relay,before the starter,its only 4lbs total and run your intake lobe centre nice and low around 106 and itll ALWAYS start,i spent 1.5 yrs stressing mine would start at 12.7:1 on one battery,gen1,s,24volts and your stress evaporates,gen2,s are better on 12volts but still,dont stress,just 24volts and youll forget its a problem.Do some research on oils,valve spring pressures,street idle rpms for good hot oil pressure,etc etc,etc if you want all those fancy big ticket items to live,instead of chew each other out,devil is in the detail dude,not glossy brochures and hype.Great motors are out there,and they are dearer than the sum of their parts for a reason,pay someone with referalls and be honest about how you wish to use it and youll be broke,but happier,lol.

[SLEEPERBUSA]

UPDATE....
As stated here earlier, just because you buy good parts, doesn't mean any combo will automaticly work.
Previously the engine made 216-217ish, hp, and 115Tq. The same day, within a couple of hours we put it on the dyno with about a 6" over arm and longer, heavier chain, and it dropped to 208hp. Today it made 216hp again on pump gas, but still with the arm/chain combo when it made 208hp.
Then we added MR12 and Johnny tuned in 9 more hp, to make 225.1hp, and 126.6Tq.
 Now, the only change that was made were the cams. We went to the Web .415/.395, and took out the Carpenter/Megacycle .443/.425.
Now I don't know if these cams are the "right" profile for this engine, but I know that they are MORE right than the others for THIS combination.

[entropy]

Chris,
EXCELLENT!  I am glad you found the missing hp, and presumably the set up is still "optimum" for 100shot. 
KDudley.

[knecum]

One thing to.remember is a dyno is just a tool, just because it makes more power on the dyno many times doesn't run as good on the track .. that's a fact.

[SLEEPERBUSA]

Yessir, I got that.
 I hope to be at the track on Friday night. Wish me luck. 
Thanks Karl. You da MAN! 

[Johnnnycheese]

Chris,
EXCELLENT!  I am glad you found the missing hp, and presumably the set up is still "optimum" for 100shot. 
KDudley.

swaped camsand springs only, still with a .030 head gasket sweet build who ever build this

[SLEEPERBUSA]

Yep!

[SLEEPERBUSA]

I went to another dyno today at Third Coast Speed, just as a comparison.
Mike is a real nice guy and is always willing to help.
His dyno is abit more friendly, but I was just curious as to what it would say. He actually complimented Johnny's tune.

I think I like Mike's dyno better than Johnny's...   

[canadian john]

Nice  power, 

[knecum]

I went to another dyno today at Third Coast Speed, just as a comparison.
Mike is a real nice guy and is always willing to help.
His dyno is abit more friendly, but I was just curious as to what it would say. He actually complimented Johnny's tune.

I think I like Mike's dyno better than Johnny's...   

.  Little lean no?  13.3. ?  Is that where you tune them to?  I shoot for 12.7-12.9

[SLEEPERBUSA]

Yessir. All I had Mike at Third Coast do is make a couple of pulls for a reading.
Johnny will finish the tune when I bring it back. We ran out of time.
It's 12am and I just took it for a ride.
This thing is fast! 

[SLEEPERBUSA]

Here's the 1441 W/.443/.425, blue
1441 W/.415/.395, red
1441 W.415/.395 W MR12, pink.
I ran a 5.82 at 127.7 last night suited at 250pounds.
A little more weight off and seat time and i'll be solid in the 8s every time I launch this thing!
Thanks Karl for the solid build and Johnny for the great tune, as always.
As Steve said, the tune need a touch up top. We just ran out of time, but Johnny's gonna touch it up when I get my nitrous tune. 

[sportbikeryder]

I went to another dyno today at Third Coast Speed, just as a comparison.
Mike is a real nice guy and is always willing to help.
His dyno is abit more friendly, but I was just curious as to what it would say. He actually complimented Johnny's tune.

I think I like Mike's dyno better than Johnny's...   

Now there is a perfect example of why we don;t race dyno's....that's a big difference.

There you go Johnny, Tune them on your dyno, then send them over to Third Coast for the final pull. 

 

[SLEEPERBUSA]

Hahahahahaha.
Yep,
I've been with Johnny since the beginning and that's not gonna change.
Mike is also a hell of a tuner and a great guy!!!
His dyno reads abit higher than Johnny's, so I tend to believe Johnny's numbers more. I just wanted a comparison, so he made those pulls for me.
I agree John, dyno numbers are not the ultimate result. It's the difference between when you show up, and when you leave.
I have sent my friends to both places to get tuned, and everyone so far has been happy with both places.

[glenn71]

who to believe is an easy one.Punch into a hp calculator, your weather conditions,whatever percentage power you get,multiply your sae corrected dyno number by that.Then use a drag strip hp calculator and punch in your best mph and total weight,thatll tell you how much hp its really making as an average in the run.Whoevers dyno is closest to that is telling the smallest lies,lol.Then track tune