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Author Topic: - The LSR Launch -  (Read 69182 times)

Offline entropy

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Re: - The LSR Launch -
« Reply #125 on: February 06, 2014, 07:47:25 AM »
...The key is getting to 100% WOT a.s.a.p.. if you leave like the dragstrip your taking up ground to quick and not at full throttle if your feathering the clutch to keep it from a wheelie.

yup
LSR is similar to drags in leaving hard is good.
But completely different in that you couldn't care less about ET. 
About everyone has experienced higher mph at the drags with lower ET's.

spinning the tire at drags = shitty ET
In my experience, some spinning the tire doesn't hurt LSR mph at all

short shifting at drags often gives best ET
In my experience, short shifting seriously hurts mph in LSR
Often wrong, but never unsure!!!!!

Offline knecum

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Re: - The LSR Launch -
« Reply #126 on: February 06, 2014, 07:53:05 AM »
...The key is getting to 100% WOT a.s.a.p.. if you leave like the dragstrip your taking up ground to quick and not at full throttle if your feathering the clutch to keep it from a wheelie.

yup
LSR is similar to drags in leaving hard is good.
But completely different in that you couldn't care less about ET. 
About everyone has experienced higher mph at the drags with lower ET's.

spinning the tire at drags = shitty ET
In my experience, some spinning the tire doesn't hurt LSR mph at all

short shifting at drags often gives best ET
In my experience, short shifting seriously hurts mph in LSR
I like it when on a turbo and you spin the tire in the higher gears sometimes it may slingshot you when it regains traction.

Offline Warp12

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Re: - The LSR Launch -
« Reply #127 on: February 06, 2014, 08:15:27 AM »
I can tell you that when our team had the honda 600, Mark and I would swap back and fourth and I would leave as hard as I can like the drag strip toting the front wheel through first. I would leave way harder then Mark. We would go the close to the same mph and most of the time Mark would go 1 mph more.  The key is getting to 100% WOT a.s.a.p.. if you leave like the dragstrip your taking up ground to quick and not at full throttle if your feathering the clutch to keep it from a wheelie.

Thanks Steve. Exactly what I am trying to get across. "Lanching hard" is not the key, getting wot (under controllable circumstances) is way more important. In that sense, LSR is not a dragstrip. Drag racing is an ET game, LSR is for mph.

Shane

Offline entropy

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Re: - The LSR Launch -
« Reply #128 on: February 06, 2014, 08:27:00 AM »
Thanks Steve. Exactly what I am trying to get across. "Lanching hard" is not the key...
Shane

Shane, perhaps your viewpoint is evolving, if so, that's good.

At the beginning of our discussion you proved to yourself that "a Bonneville start" vs "launching hard" makes very little difference in terminal speed, i.e. 1-2mph.  You had math that proved it.

My logs showed me that "launching hard" i.e. using every possible rpm for every foot of track yields 5-10-more mph.

Are we any closer to you agreeing with me?
Or do you insist in going slow? :hys: :hys: :hys: :hys: :hys:
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Offline entropy

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Re: - The LSR Launch -
« Reply #129 on: February 06, 2014, 08:29:50 AM »
Shane,
i'm just jerking your chain :bike:
I consider you a friend and respect your knowledge & experience.
But I am not sure we are ever going to agree.
Often wrong, but never unsure!!!!!

Offline Warp12

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Re: - The LSR Launch -
« Reply #130 on: February 06, 2014, 08:40:05 AM »
Thanks Steve. Exactly what I am trying to get across. "Lanching hard" is not the key...
Shane

Shane, perhaps your viewpoint is evolving, if so, that's good.

At the beginning of our discussion you proved to yourself that "a Bonneville start" vs "launching hard" makes very little difference in terminal speed, i.e. 1-2mph.  You had math that proved it.

My logs showed me that "launching hard" i.e. using every possible rpm for every foot of track yields 5-10-more mph.

Are we any closer to you agreeing with me?
Or do you insist in going slow? :hys: :hys: :hys: :hys: :hys:

Karl, I think you are starting to come around to my way of thinking...so maybe we are both going to meet in the middle one day, lol!

Reading Steve's post again:


I would leave way harder then Mark. We would go the close to the same mph and most of the time Mark would go 1 mph more

if you leave like the dragstrip your taking up ground to quick and not at full throttle if your feathering the clutch to keep it from a wheelie.


The math I stated is 100% correct. Where did I ever say "Bonneville Start"?? Although I imagine the philosophy is the same; get the bike to a controllable wot condition as soon as possible. Don't try to rip it out of the hole like a bat out of hell.


Shane
« Last Edit: February 06, 2014, 08:55:49 AM by Warp12 »

Offline Warp12

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Re: - The LSR Launch -
« Reply #131 on: February 06, 2014, 08:42:35 AM »
Shane,
i'm just jerking your chain :bike:
I consider you a friend and respect your knowledge & experience.
But I am not sure we are ever going to agree.

Likewise Karl...two people can view the same thing and describe it two totally different ways. So, I imagine we do agree on some of the points already. But I still cringe every time I hear, "it is a 1-mile drag race". Because, at the dragstrip, ET is king...and when you transfer that technique straight to the LSR track, you are missing the point, and focusing on the wrong end of the track. Imo.

Shane
« Last Edit: February 06, 2014, 08:47:20 AM by Warp12 »

Offline knecum

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Re: - The LSR Launch -
« Reply #132 on: February 06, 2014, 09:03:12 AM »
If you're talking A Bonneville start. The actual launch is nothing to gain. Its all how you apply the power with your "seat of the pants" riding skill through the first mile on.  The first mile is really important, but not the actual launch, Ill make up for an easy roll from a light launch with SOP finesse through the miles!

Offline entropy

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Re: - The LSR Launch -
« Reply #133 on: February 06, 2014, 09:04:28 AM »
The math I stated is 100% correct. Where did I ever say "Bonneville Start"?? Although I imagine the philosophy is the same; get the bike to a controllable wot condition as soon as possible. Don't try to rip it out of the hole like a bat out of hell.
Shane

This is where we fundamentally disagree.

I say DO "rip it out of the hole like a bat out of hell".
And, keep rpm up by letting it spin a lil bit in 1st and 2nd
And, avoid short shifting, ever.
And, avoid getting out the throttle to control wheelies, ever.

I'm saying that being as aggressive as possible from the starting line, thru 1st, 2nd, 3rd, every gear is worth 5-10-more mph at the finish.

We agree to disagree.
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Offline Warp12

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Re: - The LSR Launch -
« Reply #134 on: February 06, 2014, 09:12:21 AM »
The math I stated is 100% correct. Where did I ever say "Bonneville Start"?? Although I imagine the philosophy is the same; get the bike to a controllable wot condition as soon as possible. Don't try to rip it out of the hole like a bat out of hell.
Shane

This is where we fundamentally disagree.

I say DO "rip it out of the hole like a bat out of hell".
And, keep rpm up by letting it spin a lil bit in 1st and 2nd
And, avoid short shifting, ever.
And, avoid getting out the throttle to control wheelies, ever.

I'm saying that being as aggressive as possible from the starting line, thru 1st, 2nd, 3rd, every gear is worth 5-10-more mph at the finish.

We agree to disagree.

First, who ever talks about 3rd gear, or even 2nd, when it comes to the "launch"? It is assumed that you should be wot in 2nd gear+, and hitting your shift points.

Lazy shift points in 2nd and 3rd gear? What does that have to do with "launching"? Right?

If your bike is gaining 5 mph in 1000' at the end of the track, trying to leave like Larry McBride is not going to help you. In fact, it may very well hurt your mph, as Steve pointed out.


Shane
« Last Edit: February 06, 2014, 09:16:02 AM by Warp12 »

Offline entropy

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Re: - The LSR Launch -
« Reply #135 on: February 06, 2014, 09:14:40 AM »
If you're talking A Bonneville start. The actual launch is nothing to gain. Its all how you apply the power with your "seat of the pants" riding skill through the first mile on.  The first mile is really important, but not the actual launch, Ill make up for an easy roll from a light launch with SOP finesse through the miles!

On the salt, the actual launch, i.e. dropping the clutch at the line MUST be gentle.
I agree 110%

I am using "bonneville start" as i see a bunch of folks run on the salt.
They ease off the line, short shift lower gears, not get agressive until 5th & 6th, then pin it.
A few years ago, I was told by some very experienced guys (like Doug Meyer) that was the way to do it, that everything good happens in mile 3 & mile 4, don't worry about being aggressive until the quarter.

What I found was that just like asphalt, every inch of the track matters, especially before the quarter.

Shane's math says otherwise.  We have a basic disagreement.
But i'll still enjoy a beer with him!
Often wrong, but never unsure!!!!!

Offline knecum

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Re: - The LSR Launch -
« Reply #136 on: February 06, 2014, 09:15:01 AM »
Yeah but you can't rip it like a bat out of hell and retain traction and without avoiding a wheelie. The traction isn't there ever!! Its called one thing and its FINESSE!! Thats one thing I have!  And happy about it!

Offline Warp12

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Re: - The LSR Launch -
« Reply #137 on: February 06, 2014, 09:18:28 AM »
If you're talking A Bonneville start. The actual launch is nothing to gain. Its all how you apply the power with your "seat of the pants" riding skill through the first mile on.  The first mile is really important, but not the actual launch, Ill make up for an easy roll from a light launch with SOP finesse through the miles!

On the salt, the actual launch, i.e. dropping the clutch at the line MUST be gentle.
I agree 110%

I am using "bonneville start" as i see a bunch of folks run on the salt.
They ease off the line, short shift lower gears, not get agressive until 5th & 6th, then pin it.
A few years ago, I was told by some very experienced guys (like Doug Meyer) that was the way to do it, that everything good happens in mile 3 & mile 4, don't worry about being aggressive until the quarter.

What I found was that just like asphalt, every inch of the track matters, especially before the quarter.

Shane's math says otherwise.  We have a basic disagreement.
But i'll still enjoy a beer with him!

NO Karl, I would never advocate anything of less than 100% throttle in 2nd gear and up! Unless the bike setup makes it uncontrollable in 2nd gear, lol...which doesn't apply to most bikes with proper setup.

Shane
« Last Edit: February 06, 2014, 09:30:43 AM by Warp12 »

Offline knecum

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Re: - The LSR Launch -
« Reply #138 on: February 06, 2014, 09:23:27 AM »
If you're talking A Bonneville start. The actual launch is nothing to gain. Its all how you apply the power with your "seat of the pants" riding skill through the first mile on.  The first mile is really important, but not the actual launch, Ill make up for an easy roll from a light launch with SOP finesse through the miles!

On the salt, the actual launch, i.e. dropping the clutch at the line MUST be gentle.
I agree 110%

I am using "bonneville start" as i see a bunch of folks run on the salt.
They ease off the line, short shift lower gears, not get agressive until 5th & 6th, then pin it.
A few years ago, I was told by some very experienced guys (like Doug Meyer) that was the way to do it, that everything good happens in mile 3 & mile 4, don't worry about being aggressive until the quarter.

What I found was that just like asphalt, every inch of the track matters, especially before the quarter.

Shane's math says otherwise.  We have a basic disagreement.
But i'll still enjoy a beer with him!
  I like going faster in the early miles.  You would have to gear accordingly to the length of the coarse you're racing on and speed desired! Just because there's 5 miles don't mean you have to run it that far. I like the 3 or 4 at most, never the the 5 unless you're trying to break stuff early!

Offline entropy

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Re: - The LSR Launch -
« Reply #139 on: February 06, 2014, 09:35:34 AM »
First, who ever talks about 3rd gear, or even 2nd, when it comes to the "launch"? It is assumed that you should be wot in 2nd gear+, and hitting your shift points.

Lazy shift points in 2nd and 3rd gear? What does that have to do with "launching"? Right?

If your bike is gaining 5 mph in 1000' at the end of the track, trying to leave like Larry McBride is not going to help you. In fact, it may very well hurt your mph, as Steve pointed out.
Shane

Don't get hung up on the word "launch".

My assertion has not wavered since the beginning of our discussion several years ago:
aggressive technique in the lower gears = 5-10-more mph at the finish.

I've been calling "aggressive technique in lower gears" = "using a hard launch".

You have also been unwavering since the beginning of our discussion. 
Your math shows you that you only gain 5 mph in the last 1000', so you conclude that my aggressive technique in lower gears isn't going to gain much.

I say it gains alot.
You say it gains little.

Neither of has budged in 3 years
:hys: :hys: :hys: :hys: :hys:

In fact, now i'm even further away from your position.
Now i believe "aggressive technique in lower gears" is even applicable at Bonneville.

A couple years ago, I saw Bob Sellers systematically gain mph at Bonneville when he got progressively more aggressive on each succeding pass.
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Offline Warp12

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Re: - The LSR Launch -
« Reply #140 on: February 06, 2014, 09:42:22 AM »
First, who ever talks about 3rd gear, or even 2nd, when it comes to the "launch"? It is assumed that you should be wot in 2nd gear+, and hitting your shift points.

Lazy shift points in 2nd and 3rd gear? What does that have to do with "launching"? Right?

If your bike is gaining 5 mph in 1000' at the end of the track, trying to leave like Larry McBride is not going to help you. In fact, it may very well hurt your mph, as Steve pointed out.
Shane

Don't get hung up on the word "launch".

My assertion has not wavered since the beginning of our discussion several years ago:
aggressive technique in the lower gears = 5-10-more mph at the finish.

I've been calling "aggressive technique in lower gears" = "using a hard launch".

You have also been unwavering since the beginning of our discussion. 
Your math shows you that you only gain 5 mph in the last 1000', so you conclude that my aggressive technique in lower gears isn't going to gain much.

I say it gains alot.
You say it gains little.

Neither of has budged in 3 years
:hys: :hys: :hys: :hys: :hys:

In fact, now i'm even further away from your position.
Now i believe "aggressive technique in lower gears" is even applicable at Bonneville.

A couple years ago, I saw Bob Sellers systematically gain mph at Bonneville when he got progressively more aggressive on each succeding pass.

Karl, why do you keep talking about the "lower gears"? I have already stated that I believe in 100% throttle from 2nd gear up, and hitting shift points.This thread is about "launching" the bike. Specifically the idea of a dragstrip-type launch, as has been advocated by some. This has nothing to do with 2nd-3rd-4th gear. It has to do with people wheelying, spinning, on the limiter, sideways...trying to get out of the hole "hard".

Your bike Greenie gained about what, 5 mph in the last 2600' of Loring? I can promise you that lesser bikes are gaining lesser mph....data logger proven, in the last 1000' of the mile. It's not my "idea"...it's fact.

Shane

Offline entropy

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Re: - The LSR Launch -
« Reply #141 on: February 06, 2014, 09:52:06 AM »
Shane,
This is your thread.

If you want to restrict discussion to "launch", i.e. only talk about 60' technique, then there is no discussion.

no discussion = too bad. :td:
Too bad because there is an excellent discussion to had about the relative importance of the front half vs the back half.


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Offline Warp12

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Re: - The LSR Launch -
« Reply #142 on: February 06, 2014, 10:05:47 AM »
Shane,
This is your thread.

If you want to restrict discussion to "launch", i.e. only talk about 60' technique, then there is no discussion.

no discussion = too bad. :td:
Too bad because there is an excellent discussion to had about the relative importance of the front half vs the back half.

Karl, the thread is about the launch. The title is "The LSR Launch". Not back half vs front half, or whatever.

That is not necessarily the 60' only, but it is more related to the way you leave the line and your 1st gear actions. When people say "rip it out of the hole", "LSR is a 1 mile dragstrip", "launch hard"....that is really what we are talking about. I have not changed position on this. Nobody is really posting, "To improve my launch I am focused on my 3rd gear shift point". 

Plenty of people have piled on about how that dragstrip launch is important, so I think this thread has plenty of merit. Every time I see a guy say, "I need to launch harder", after spinning the tire and wheelying, that brings the point home.   

I think there has been a lot of good discussion here, even if it has been way off track at times.  :)

Shane
« Last Edit: February 06, 2014, 10:08:52 AM by Warp12 »

Offline fvance

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Re: - The LSR Launch -
« Reply #143 on: February 06, 2014, 10:12:58 AM »
I am with Steve and Karl, on Bonneville. I  leave kind of easy, run a long way in 1st gear, trying to keep it hooked up. I take it to the shift light in every gear. My fastest run ever was 235 in three miles. 233 at the 2 1/4. Right hand traction control is very important in 1st gear and sometimes 2nd. :bike:
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Offline Ozonkiller

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Re: - The LSR Launch -
« Reply #144 on: February 06, 2014, 01:34:45 PM »
If it's done accelerating before the mile then the launch doesn't matter but if it's still gaining at the mile, then it matters.

Tom

How would you quantify the correlation between ET and mph? Since the focus of the dragstrip is a quick ET, and some say that LSR is a "1 mile drag race", I would like to hear your views on that.

Do you believe that the hardest launch possbile for the surface equals the best mph at the dragstrip? Is a drag strip launch the hot ticket for LSR, in your opinion?

Shane

For example, at my first Texas Mile, three of us showed up with bone stock ZX14's.  The only modification was the countershaft nut to eliminate the speed limiter.  We all ran 184 and some change every run.  We tried hard drag strip launches and soft roll out style launches.  It didn't matter.  What we observed was, depending on the launch, we'd max out at somewhere between the 5/8 and a bit passed the 3/4 mark.

Since then I've modified the bike to where I'm still building rev's when I'm crossing the finish line.  Now the launch really matters.

Another extreme example...   There used to be a guy who showed up at Texas with a lawn mower.  He went 74 mph.  He'd run to about the half mile mark before he'd gas it and drop into his tuck.  Obviously, his launch didn't matter.

That being said, it's a lot more fun to drill it outta the hole 8)

Tom

Offline speedduck

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Re: - The LSR Launch -
« Reply #145 on: February 06, 2014, 01:42:38 PM »
What then if you experience major wheel spin in some lower gear, how should it be handled to get something out of the run ? Shortshift, or is there some tricks that could help ? Knowing that there is several hours before next run. I`m a rookie, don`t laugh  :)

Offline Ozonkiller

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Re: - The LSR Launch -
« Reply #146 on: February 06, 2014, 02:04:40 PM »
It's all in the wrist :bike:

I've gotten greedy more than once and blew off the tire leaving the line and it cost me several miles per hour thru the traps.

At the first Mojave event it was cold as hell.  There was NO traction in the first two gears.  Karl and I were going toe to toe for top honors.  I finally threw a really tall gear on the bike to soften up the power to the tire in 1st and 2nd.  I still had some tire spin but the result was I was going faster despite going thru the traps in 5th instead of 6th.  It worked 8)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LheXmC9gsWE

Tom

Offline firemanjim

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Re: - The LSR Launch -
« Reply #147 on: February 06, 2014, 03:14:28 PM »
And we need to separate the style of launch based on the venue, because pavement will be vastly different than salt or elmo.
I really think we are all talking about the same thing just blurring the terms. We agree on the need to get to OT as soon as possible, and to use all available rpm in very gear.

Never ceased to amaze me watching some bike leave the line at salt and soft pedal and short shift so they are in fifth before the mile even. :hys:
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Offline scott g

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Re: - The LSR Launch -
« Reply #148 on: February 06, 2014, 03:58:01 PM »
I have been over 250
both on salt,
and in the mile.

Here's a thought or two:

1)  Pavement

a)  There is NO time to waste, unless you are at the power peak
in top gear as you go through the lights. 

b)  If you are on an air-cooled 125cc,
you risk overhearing and slowing
if you nail it the whole way.

c) If you are hitting the rev limiter in the lights,
 try gearing a little taller,  like 1/2 tooth.

d)  keep some sort of record of the wind speed and direction
AT the lights AT the time of the run.  A tail wind
will not always be available when you need it.

e) Control your launch traction.  Lifting because of a "wheelie"
means you are not managing acceleration as well as possible.

f)  Use some sort of data to isolate your
best practices when acceleration from stop.

g)  Use this same data to identify possibilities
 from the 1/4 mile onwards.  Body position counts a lot,
and it is empirical, not intuitive

(See picture of Shane at 260 mph above)

h) Become comfortable with speed and body movement.

i)   Become comfortable with speed and bike movement.

j)  Practice, practice, practice.


2)Salt

a)  This is a changing, hostile environment.

b)  Good traction on Course #1 does NOT mean good traction on course #2

c)  Good traction at 10:00 am does NOT mean good traction at 2:00 PM.

d)  The tune up for sea-level is not always right for 4,250 feet at Bonneville.

e)  Traction will vary between the 2-mile and the 4-mile.

f)  Traction will be different between the left side of the course, and the right side.

g)  There may be standing water on the course.

h)  In summary, traction is where you find it.

i) When you find it, use it !

j)  If you don't have it, don't kill the tire by spinning (too much).

k)  You will spin the rear tire - grow to love it, it means you are making power !

l)  Every good run at Bonneville is a gift.

m)  Every bad run is an opportunity to learn.

Rich Yancy several times complimented my for having a "good launch"
on the famous BUD #8, which put me in the 250 club at Goliad - the
track record at the time.  The first time he said it, I was both very
surprised and very pleased, since I never done "squat" as a drag racer. 

Later, I was able to capitalize on the good points, and reduce the bad points.   

Walt Kudron once kindly complimented me for running within 1 mph
on a number of consecutive runs,
FOOT SHIFTING to about 241 mph at Maxton.

If you can control what you do,
you can control the outcome.

If you can't control what you do,
than it's just dumb luck

TAKE the dumb luck every time,
but don't convince yourself you are a hero...

I have been active in LSR for more than 40 years,
and have more than 200 official time slips over 200 MPH.

I cannot remember one perfect run out of any
of the maybe 800 LSR runs I have made.

Offline Warp12

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Re: - The LSR Launch -
« Reply #149 on: February 06, 2014, 04:06:53 PM »
I have been over 250
both on salt,
and in the mile.

Here's a thought or two:

1)  Pavement

a)  There is NO time to waste, unless you are at the power peak
in top gear as you go through the lights. 


I agree, no time to waste. Just be sure to use your time wisely. :wink:

Quote
Walt Kudron once kindly complimented me for running within 1 mph
on a number of consecutive runs,
FOOT SHIFTING to about 241 mph at Maxton.

As a well-known drag racer once said to me, ".....the knowledge is in the consistency." Very true and very important, imo. I know some guys who are very, very fast...occasionally. :D That's why I like to focus on data and science when possible....when you understand why something is occurring, you are much more likely to be able to make it happen again. Anecdotal evidence and science have a tenuous relationship, at best.  :thumb:

Shane
« Last Edit: February 06, 2014, 04:17:26 PM by Warp12 »