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Author Topic: - The LSR Launch -  (Read 69074 times)

Offline scott g

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Re: - The LSR Launch -
« Reply #25 on: October 08, 2013, 02:13:59 PM »
Just from seeing bills runs at loring his 311 pass was a soft launch
and his  mile passes sounded and looked way more aggressive.
Would be nice to have 1/2 mile data on the two cause loring can hook.

Just things that I am learning in my quest for 250+


The Quest for 250 MPH in the mile is a real quest

1   Bill Warner (WildBro)   296.128   LOR13   :angel:****FASTEST MILE****LORING TRACK RECORD****
1.1   Bill Warner (WildBro)   278.6   GOL10   :angel:****GOLIAD TRACK RECORD****
1.2   Bill Warner (WildBro)   274.2   MOJ11   :angel:****MOJAVE TRACK RECORD****
1.3   Bill Warner (WildBro)   272.374   MAX10   :angel:****MAXTON TRACK RECORD****
2   Billy Shoemaker (billyshoe)     269.2   MOJ11   
3   Shane Stubbs (Livin1072)      264.375   MAX10   
4   Tom Gates (TrickTom1)   261.5   GOL10   
5   Lee Shierts   260.288   MAX05   
6   Charlie Anstaett (Busa200)   259.856   MAX08   
6.1   Billy Shoemaker (billyshoe)     255.7   BEE11   ****BEEVILLE TRACK RECORD****
7   Wayne Pollack   255.543   MAX05   
7.1   Bill Warner (WildBro)   255.1   GOL10   :angel:****FASTEST NAKED****
8   Ben Beckert (Beckertb)   252.806   GOL09   
9   Scott Guthrie (scottg)   251.147   GOL04   
10   John Noonan (SpeedKing)   251.1   MOJ10   
11   Jack Frost   250   WOD09   *

The above eleven (11) folks are the only racers currently
attaining that goal.

If you look past the Bill Warner program ( Warner and Billy Shoemaker),
NOBODY has joined that exclusive "250 Club" in three (3) years. (since 2010)

It ain't easy.

But, looking at the "second eleven" (11), we see folks on the move:

11   Jack Frost   250   WOD09   ****WOODBRIDGE TRACK RECORD****
12    Hussain Al-sowaigh   249.6   BEE12   
13   T homas Cronin   249.055   LOR12   
14    Terry Kizer (MrTurbo)   247.591   GOL08   
15    Dean Sabatinelli (Zrxdean)     245.109   MAX11   ****FASTEST 1000cc****
16    Rich Yancy      244.358   GOL04   
17    Walt Kudron (TurboKing)   244.18   MAX07   
17.1    Jack Frost   244.1   ELV12   ****ELVINGTON TRACK RECORD****
18   Jennifer Robertson (9secondJen)      243.6   BEE12   ****FASTEST WOMAN****
19   Jo Stevenson (Tinkerbell1710)   243.5   ELV12   
20   Mika Syren (speedduck)   243   ELV13   
21   Jody Leveille (Nicklecityracing)      242.208   MAX09   
22   Mike Grainger   242.09   ELV12   


Of this eleven, seven have done the time in the last couple of years,
and   20   Mika Syren (speedduck) did his time this year.

The dream of 250 is possible.

Who will be next ?


I recall T cronin made 250 in mile. and that would put him the only in last 3 years? I will hit 250!! and hope its at my next event..

See rider #13.....................

Offline speedduck

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Re: - The LSR Launch -
« Reply #26 on: October 08, 2013, 02:17:47 PM »
I will hit 250!! and hope its at my next event..
And that is when ? You know, i`m counting this years top list.

Offline Busa3268

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Re: - The LSR Launch -
« Reply #27 on: October 08, 2013, 07:13:04 PM »
Loring is probably the next event I hope to attend.  As its not a race but just my personal goal.
And tc was in 1.5..
228.3 Naked Loring 2018

Offline Team Millholland

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Re: - The LSR Launch -
« Reply #28 on: October 10, 2013, 07:23:15 PM »
I'm gonna just touch on the post title.....

The boys and I have quite a few LSR passes under our leathers and while I don't have scientific proof I do have timeslips and we three have always turned the best mph with aggressive launches in the mile.
It goes back to the day when most bikes were n/a and other than Scott and a few others it was (and is) our streetbikes that we ran. We didn't have the crazy hp of todays turbo 'Busa's & we could not get max speed out of our bikes in the mile no matter how we tuned, geared or ran it.......if I had of then I wouldn't pick up 5 or 6 mph by going to Loring.

Scott may remember the timing system better than me at Maxton in the early days, please chime in Scott and correct me if needed. I'm thinking it was a 132' distance and we used to receive an entry speed and exit speed and the average would be our official speed. On my first 200+ pass I had an entry of 201.xx with and exit of 203.xx giving me a mph of 202.xx, this tells me the bike was still accelerating and a good launch and getting down to business early helped us.

Shane, I know you and Racheal have a ton of dragstrip passes under your belts with some impressive 1/4 mile times. I can not remember ever seeing either of you two making hard launches but of course you've ran a lot of LSR that I've not attended.
Granted the track is the limiting factor and wheelspin is always present on dusty concrete runways, that's one reason the boys run stock arms.

Dan

Offline Warp12

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Re: - The LSR Launch -
« Reply #29 on: October 11, 2013, 07:21:31 AM »
Dan,

First…I wish Chad has his leathers at OH! There is nobody out there that I would trust more to make speed on my 14, and give feedback, than either Zack or Chad!!

I think between Racheal and I, we have about 2000 combined dragstrip passes under our belts. I think the dragstrip can actually tell you a lot more about launching and mph than the LSR track can. I say this, because you have excellent traction, and can put down the best launch possible at your skill level and wheelbase.  Now, that being said, we have been to about 22 LSR events, and we have tried launching a few ways there as well. I am not claiming we are the most talented racers out there, but we probably have more experience than the “average” guy who shows up.

My dragstrip testing tells me that you can run great mph without a hard “launch”. I think a lot of us have witnessed or experienced this. Now, this is different than saying “don’t go WOT”. I have had more than one day where my best MPH was not my best ET, or 60’, or even 330’. I have bogged the motor down and ran as good or as better mph as launching hard. Even if you lost 1-2 mph at the ¼ mile, your net loss at the 1 mile would be less. That is because the bike is gaining speed quickly, over short distances, in the first ¼ mile. Think about the 5-6 you gain at Loring…..it takes 2600 extra feet of track. If it is taking you 1/2 a mile to gain 5-6 mph, how much can possibly be lost from 100’, or even 300’ of less track?

You probably notice an ugly logger strapped to our fuel tanks a lot of time. With this I can see the rate of acceleration at the end of the mile or 1.5. It is good for giving a good idea of speed gained over distance. So, when the bike is gaining 100 rpm in the last 1.2 seconds, you are gaining say 1.5 mph over the last 300 feet of track. That might be typical for a good running stock bike, geared properly. No matter how you slice that, you wouldn’t gain more than 1.5 mph with 300 feet more of track. And, as mentioned, you are not going to give up 300 feet…the bike is simply accelerating too hard on the small end of the track.

No doubt, you and your boys are talented and experienced riders. In fact, some people say, “look at how the Millhollands launch, that proves it works”. But that is really ignoring the big picture of physics, rider skill, and aero issues. Or someone will come in and say, “Keith Dennis goes 1 mph faster in the ¼ on his most perfect launch at the dragstrip”. Hardly applicable to most of us on the LSR track. :D

I would also like to touch on some of the fastest turbo bikes, with tall gearing. On those bikes it is my opinion that being aggressive on the launch is much more important. That is because they are gaining big mph over relatively short distances, on the big end. You know, if the bike doesn’t get to accelerating for 200’, and it is gaining 5-7 mph in 200’ at track’s end…well, then it is more critical. But that does not apply to most of our bikes.

So, that is why I confidently say, “If you are focused on the launch, you are focused on the wrong end of the LSR track.” BUT, if there is more to the science than I understand, I’m all ears. I really want to understand the science of it, whether I am right or wrong. Because I can afford a tire warmer, and I can launch fairly briskly, if the need arises. :D

Now, on the subject of the tire warmer. Well, the impact on overall traction, not just the launch, needs to be considered. A simple 1% change in wheel slip (about .78" per tire revolution) on the big end can amount to 2+ mph. But the science of overall chassis setup is beyond this thread.  :wink:

Shane
« Last Edit: October 11, 2013, 07:39:19 AM by Warp12 »

Offline zrxdean

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Re: - The LSR Launch -
« Reply #30 on: October 11, 2013, 08:55:42 AM »
Few racing techniques apply universally. Despite our efforts to control all the relevant variables, we often fail.

IMO, the best way to figure out what works for any one rider on any one bike is to try it both ways and see which is faster. Hard to argue with consistent results.

Offline entropy

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Re: - The LSR Launch -
« Reply #31 on: October 11, 2013, 09:52:05 AM »
Shane says:
"So, that is why I confidently say, “If you are focused on the launch, you are focused on the wrong end of the LSR track.”
"if there is more to the science than I understand, I’m all ears. I really want to understand the science of it"

Karl says:
"I have a BS in Physics and I don't understand it"   :hys:
" Much more importantly, I took a bunch of gps logs with Greenie when I was investigating "lazy launches" vs as "aggressive as possible".

For Greenie, I KNOW that a combo of 1)lazy riding technique in 1st & 2nd and 2) too short an arm could cost me up to 10mph.
this assumes the same tuck in 3-4-5-6.

Ever wonder how Sal made awesome mph? (on a little motor Kawasaki fer god's sake)
I did, and Sal was pretty forthcoming :D

When I say "hard launch", I mean rider technique from the moment you start moving until you are WOT locked in third.
(and don't forget arm length)
With my logs, I "studied" what little end techniques made big end mph.
there are 4-5 components to this "hard launch".  To put them together takes focus & practice.
karl
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Offline entropy

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Re: - The LSR Launch -
« Reply #32 on: October 11, 2013, 10:11:15 AM »
Few racing techniques apply universally. Despite our efforts to control all the relevant variables, we often fail.

IMO, the best way to figure out what works for any one rider on any one bike is to try it both ways and see which is faster. Hard to argue with consistent results.

Dean,
as usual, I agree with you mostly.

Most of you guys have extensive drag racing in your background.

Drag racing = serious drag racers endlessly dissect their 60' & 330' technique.
LSR = most riders largely ignore the details of 1st & 2nd gear technique.
I took my gps logs and kept track of all the aspects I could think of, looked for correlations with high mph
looked as time and distance from start.  Some very compelling conclusions.

Drag racers all agree that shitty passes with bad ET's often have their highest mph.
Ever wonder why that is?  I sure did...
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Offline zrxdean

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Re: - The LSR Launch -
« Reply #33 on: October 11, 2013, 10:18:44 AM »
One latent variable here is power. On a turbo bike, there is a hige ability to "make up" for a slow launch with torque.

Moreover, this extra power (double or triple of the equiv NA bike) has to have super-tall gearing to allow it reach that extra 30mph on the big end.

Thus comparing launch pros and cons between NA and turbo bikes is really tough. At least 2 moving parts, and they interact.

Offline Warp12

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Re: - The LSR Launch -
« Reply #34 on: October 11, 2013, 10:43:21 AM »
Few racing techniques apply universally. Despite our efforts to control all the relevant variables, we often fail.

IMO, the best way to figure out what works for any one rider on any one bike is to try it both ways and see which is faster. Hard to argue with consistent results.

Dean,
as usual, I agree with you mostly.

Most of you guys have extensive drag racing in your background.

Drag racing = serious drag racers endlessly dissect their 60' & 330' technique.
LSR = most riders largely ignore the details of 1st & 2nd gear technique.
I took my gps logs and kept track of all the aspects I could think of, looked for correlations with high mph
looked as time and distance from start.  Some very compelling conclusions.

Drag racers all agree that shitty passes with bad ET's often have their highest mph.
Ever wonder why that is?  I sure did...

Karl, I think we are defining the "launch" in two different ways. I do not advocate waiting until 3rd gear to get aggressive with the throttle.

We should be careful drawing conclusions based a rider's "style", overall talent...or even just a mph outcome. For example, we could draw the conclusion that hanging the bike on the limiter and spinning the tire leads to big speed as well. Or that a turbo rider is more talented than an NA guy, because of the speed generated. Or that the only way to go fast on a 12R is with a Dynojet Quickshifter. That's why I look for the science.

Until we understand the science, we have "feelings", "anecdotes", and "ideas".

Quote
Drag racers all agree that shitty passes with bad ET's often have their highest mph.
Ever wonder why that is?  I sure did...

If we have an explanation of the science behind that....well, then we can really expand our discussion about "launching". MPH is really what we are talking about, right?

Shane
« Last Edit: October 11, 2013, 10:51:47 AM by Warp12 »

Offline Landspeed Larry

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Re: - The LSR Launch -
« Reply #35 on: October 11, 2013, 11:41:45 AM »
I don't have data from Loring 2013 but when Bill made his first ever runs with the racebike at Maxton he ran 238 in the HALF MILE with the front wheel in the air. I am sure as he got used to the bike he went a little faster. This is what makes the Mile so challenging at very high speeds, very violent acceleration. If someone ever gets close, they will understand. Simple rule of thumb :tu: , the faster the bike, the faster you have to accelerate.  LSL
All motor all the time and a turbo now and then.

Offline Warp12

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Re: - The LSR Launch -
« Reply #36 on: October 11, 2013, 11:52:13 AM »
I don't have data from Loring 2013 but when Bill made his first ever runs with the racebike at Maxton he ran 238 in the HALF MILE with the front wheel in the air. I am sure as he got used to the bike he went a little faster. This is what makes the Mile so challenging at very high speeds, very violent acceleration. If someone ever gets close, they will understand. Simple rule of thumb :tu: , the faster the bike, the faster you have to accelerate.  LSL

That kind of ties in with what I was suggesting about the hard accelerating bikes, like the big turbos, getting more out of that first 150 feet than some of the other bikes. Whereas, sometimes people say that an NA bike demands a harder launch than a big nitrous or turbo setup. I think of these 50cc bikes, running 48 mph at the mile...how critical is that first 150'? Yes, a wildly exaggerated example...but illustrates the point.

Shane


Offline Team Millholland

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Re: - The LSR Launch -
« Reply #37 on: October 11, 2013, 03:16:44 PM »
I can BS with the best of them and I don't even have a BS !!! :mrgreen:

Does anyone know of any rider never running faster in the 1.5 than the 1 mile?  Seems so simple to me and my simple mind......if a bike is still accelerating at one mile then it looks like an aggressive launch would be beneficial in adding mph.
A slow bike like in your example Shane would surely reach it's maximum speed before the mile therefore not needing an aggressive launch.

My last three passes at Loring were within 1mph of each other total, I felt like my bike had attained a true top speed with me on it. I doubt a soft or hard launch would have made a difference, but I still launched hard.

I apologize for repeating myself so much.......I'll back out now.

Dan

BTW......I never knew Bill ran those numbers in the half. WOW!

Offline Warp12

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Re: - The LSR Launch -
« Reply #38 on: October 11, 2013, 04:31:22 PM »
Dan, I think if you go back to my original post you will see that I say that comparatively little can be gained in the 1st 150'. And I think that holds true. If you consider that it takes 2600' to gain 5-6 mph on top (on the bikes I am talking about). Now, we are getting a lot of confusion, I think. When I say that I don't feel a hard launch is required, I don't mean to stay off the gas until you are in 3rd gear, 500' down the track. I am really referring to the typical dragstrip launch. That is what I am talking about when I say hard launch.

Karl pointed out above, the big mph that can be obtained with a crappy launch at the dragstrip. That is not to say that the bike isn't getting WOT quickly. So, you know, if we analyze why that is true, then we all go faster.  I have some pretty good ideas about why, but they are just "ideas" until I can prove the "why" with data. It's enough for me now, having seen that slow launch and big mph many, many times at the dragstrip. :thumb:

Shane
« Last Edit: October 11, 2013, 05:38:18 PM by Warp12 »

Offline JHerheim

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Re: - The LSR Launch -
« Reply #39 on: October 11, 2013, 07:14:07 PM »
I'd love to see the true science behind this. 

I do remember my first time at Maxton and I was told "don't worry, it's not a drag race.  You've got plenty of time to get up to speed" 

It took me one event to realize that is not exactly true.   Here's my anecdotes that I remember and look back on to help me make sense of what I'm trying to accomplish.

End Speed is about Traction, Aero, and HP.    You have to get the best you can out of those three variables.   The chart shows who has done it well, and not too many have done it all the same way.    Bill seemed to have a fair amount of technology at his disposal for measuring such things and a hell of a tune up to take advantage of what he found useful. 


I remember my last time at Maxton,  bike running like crap and can't get out of it's own way.  (turns out the exhaust cam was way off)    I got back to the like and my brother looks at me and says,  "why can't you just leave like Trillium? ".     

I also remember multiple interviews with John Force speaking about 300+ back in the day.   He mentioned that If you want to set a speed record you need to let the wheels slip a little more off the line and eventually it will hook up,  but it's not going to be quick. 

That said,  Jody was kind enough to show me the logs of Trillium's passes that day.  AIM sport dash stuff was pretty cool.   I vaguely remember that her bike would accelerate after rolling off the throttle as the back tire was spinning at nearly 25mph faster than the bike was traveling at the stripe. 

At my next event  (hopefully Ohio, next season)  after my license passes (it's been a while)  I surely plan on slapping on a set of tire warmers just as I saw Lee and Rich use just so I can be sure to get the bike slowed down in an appropriate distance.   But it will be nice to be able to roll out just a bit harder than I could have without warm tires. 


Offline entropy

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Re: - The LSR Launch -
« Reply #40 on: October 11, 2013, 08:22:25 PM »
Until we understand the science, we have "feelings", "anecdotes", and "ideas".
...
If we have an explanation of the science behind that....
Shane

Shane, we've had the discussion several times,
you keep quoting science, I keep showing logs & terminal speeds...
Reminds me of 100 years ago, when leading scientists PROVED that bumblebees couldn't fly

I am only interested in what techniques = more terminal speed. (NA vs NA, turbo vs turbo).
Honest injun, in this case, I don't give a shit about the science :D

IMO empirically:
#1 factor = aeros
#2 factor = hp
#3 factor = technique
#4 set up, arm & shifter

Karl

Shane you keep saying 'hard launch" = 150'
I keep saying 'hard launch" = 1-2-start of 3 gear.

This your thread, but I have no idea what yr point is????
« Last Edit: October 11, 2013, 08:30:15 PM by entropy »
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Offline Warp12

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Re: - The LSR Launch -
« Reply #41 on: October 11, 2013, 08:34:38 PM »
Until we understand the science, we have "feelings", "anecdotes", and "ideas".
...
If we have an explanation of the science behind that....
Shane

Shane, we've had the discussion several times,
you keep quoting science, I keep showing logs & terminal speeds...
Reminds me of 100 years ago, when leading scientists PROVED that bumblebees couldn't fly

I am only interested in what techniques = more terminal speed. (NA vs NA, turbo vs turbo).
Honest injun, in this case, I don't give a shit about the science :D

IMO empirically:
#1 factor = aeros
#2 factor = hp
#3 factor = technique
#4 set up, arm & shifter

Karl

Imo, if the logs are worth something, they contain the science, the data that can tell you the "why". Otherwise, they can just give you general information...like, "yup, I went faster that time".

Imo, the bumblebee analogy doesn't really apply here, because we can measure the acceleration rate of the motorcycle, all along the track. We can see where it picks up speed, and how quickly. We can see rpm, we can see tps, we can see wheelspin. We even know the general power curve of the motorcycle. We can determine the wind speed and direction, we can determine the DA between runs. We have a lot of real data...not a flight model of a simulated insect. Maybe I just like understanding data; I have been analyzing machine trends at work for many years.

Anyway, I think that the statement, "I don't give a shit about the science"...well, you know...I did request that we keep it scientific.  :D

So, with that, I will bow out of this thread. I came searching for the science, but that will have to wait for another day, it seems.  :lol:

Shane

Offline fvance

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Re: - The LSR Launch -
« Reply #42 on: October 12, 2013, 09:44:08 AM »
Karl, interesting you put Aerodynamics #1. You know I agree with you 100%, but  :D :hys:
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Offline 80 Theory

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Re: - The LSR Launch -
« Reply #43 on: October 21, 2013, 04:46:38 PM »
I tend to agree with Karl's order of importance; especially when you have some horsepower.  Testing my air shifter at Maple Grove Dragway prior to ECTA's October meet I was running 9.7s at 163 with my mile racing gearing and hard tires (I'm NOT a drag racer - I roll it on when I see full green and pin the throttle).  If the bike was set up for drag racing it could run high 8s or low 9s with a drag racer on board but it would have a slower trap speed.

Something to think about is the faster you go, the less time you have to go fast.  When Larry 'Spider Man' McBride was asked why there wasn't much difference in his 1/8 mile and 1/4 mile speeds he simply said there wasn't enough time to go faster.  In other words what Larry said "the faster the bike, the faster you have to accelerate".

Mike
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Best 1 1/2 Mile: 225.300 MPH
Best 1 Mile: 224.327 MPH
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Offline Daveeed

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Re: - The LSR Launch -
« Reply #44 on: October 21, 2013, 08:17:31 PM »
> "I tend to agree with Karl's order of importance; especially when you have some horsepower"

So your putting horsepower as #1 ?    =8^)

I was going to put HP as #1, however for any given HP, the bike with better arodynamics should kick ass, given
the pilot does not muck up the other three items.

I will propose a different twist to this... At what MPH does aerodymacs actually start making a difference?.
If I was to line up with a naked busa with the same setup , engine, etc, and we take off, I think the two bikes in theory would run side by side up to say around 80mph or so (what would that be... 2.5 seconds or so?)

However, I believe the correct answer to the question would be that aerodynamics starts to play a roll as soon as one launches it all adds up from the start.

This is why my number 1 modification for this winter is to improve my aerodynacs...somehow.

DD
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Offline fvance

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Re: - The LSR Launch -
« Reply #45 on: October 22, 2013, 09:00:26 AM »
Daveed, Let me suggest the Catalyst LSR fairing. If you don't want to run the long tail just get the front part and the lower. I think it is the best Aero money can buy. I modified two front fairings and lowers. It is a major PITA. I now have the Catalyst fairing. Unfortunately rain on the salt prevented us from any runs this year. Andy Sills BMW ran around 223 ant Bonneville with the Catalyst fairing. :thumb:
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Offline 80 Theory

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Re: - The LSR Launch -
« Reply #46 on: October 23, 2013, 06:45:43 AM »
Daveeed, what I mean by mostly is if your technique is really bad or your setup is way off you may not be able to do anything.  We've probably all had runs blown by technique; I know I have.  Setup on my bike is a work in progress with no real answers except I'm way more comfortable pinning the throttle through all the gears.  But, I haven't gone any faster than before the setup changes.

I would put aero ahead of HP, especially on the salt, because I've seen bikes with less HP go considerably faster with good aero.

Mike
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Best 1 1/2 Mile: 225.300 MPH
Best 1 Mile: 224.327 MPH
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Best 1/2 Mile: 196.764

Offline Frank06

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Re: - The LSR Launch -
« Reply #47 on: October 23, 2013, 07:06:25 AM »
I've been waiting for someone to suggest the obvious: do back-to-back runs (same conditions as much as possible.)  On the first run do a hard launch and on the second, start in third gear.  Has anyone done this?

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Offline Got-Busa?

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Re: - The LSR Launch -
« Reply #48 on: October 23, 2013, 08:16:53 AM »
3rd gear would be a bad idea because it would reduce time/distance to much and you wouldn't build speed quick enough by 1-mile..
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Offline rustman

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Re: - The LSR Launch -
« Reply #49 on: October 23, 2013, 10:21:52 AM »
This is a great discussion.  I can't add much because there wasn't quite enough science applied to my program, but I think my best runs were made by launching-
Revs up but slipping the clutch
Spooling as fast as possible
Burning the tire off in 1st, 2nd, and the first half of 3rd gear.

It would suddenly hook in 3rd and then pull hard most of the run until aeros dragged it down on the big end.  I'd rate it as a moderately hard launch but nothing like a drag launch.  I don't have the guts to launch super hard.
Yeah, it made 500 hp at 32 psi.
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