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Author Topic: Cause of losing #3 rod bearing.  (Read 19334 times)

Offline knecum

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Re: Cause of losing #3 rod bearing.
« Reply #25 on: December 10, 2013, 10:23:14 PM »
Chris how come you didn't contact me about this? I'm not afraid to say I built this motor. Just because I built the motor doesn't guarantee that it won't spin a bearing which is the most common thing to happen. That's the most common thing to happen no matter who builds it, especially a weld up cross  drilled crank that's welded up to the max. I don't remember whether you knew the history of your core or not, but that matters as well. Its is a possibility that a crank can fail its just a matter of fact. Nobody who ever spins a bearing ever thinks its could be some kind of crank issue. What !!! it can't ever be a crank issue because its a crank made of metal and that's only one of the weakest links of the motor so how can that fail? so it must be the builders fault. I'm not saying your blaming me just stating facts. If a builder can promise you you'll never spin a bearing then I want them to build all of my engines!! Or they built 10 engines vs several thousand it seems for me that I've done. The mains were at .0015 and rods at .002-.0024, its impossible to make them all exactly the same. Side clear was at .007, plenty of PTH.. I can't control any other variables, tune, riding techniques, gas used,oil,etc.  The one thing that I can promise is I build every engine the best that I can as if it were mine, and if it was mine and it was a stroker I never would use a weld up crank. I would use a billet crank like I recommended to Chris as I just put in my B-KING! The thing is people say they can't afford a billet, well you can't afford not to. Its only 1500$ more then a weld up and if you can't afford that you can't afford to build the engine in the first place. I can say out of EVERY billet Marine stroker engine that I've built NONE have spun a bearing. So now look how much you have to spend!!! more then 1500$.  Chris also if you losing MPH like you were or the bike acts totally different then what your use to, you must stop riding or racing it, because if you start having a bearing issue and you continue riding or WOT your engine your rod has no choice except to take a breather through your cases, its just going to happen. You must pay strict attention to your engine for abnormal noises. Now of coarse I feel bad about the situation as I do to anyone's motor whether I built it or Moses built it.  I've asked a few other builders about their build success with Marine billets and the both said they never had bearing issues.  When you get a chance look up the disadvantages on cross-drilled crankshafts on Google!!! I posted it a little while back on my FB page. You know that that's a possible cause too!! and nobody can say it's not.

You say you never want it to happen again right? Well the only way that is going to happen is to BUY a MARINE billet crank, and there not cross drilled. This is not just steered towards you, this is to anyone who's thinking about weld up strokers! and yes some may last and most won't. Please call me on this tomorrow and sorry for your loss.
« Last Edit: December 10, 2013, 10:26:38 PM by knecum »

Offline SLEEPERBUSA

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Re: Cause of losing #3 rod bearing.
« Reply #26 on: December 11, 2013, 12:31:53 AM »
Brother Steve,
While I appreciate everything you said....

It was NOT your build.  :hys:

Sorry about the miscommunication.  8)
The reason I didn't mention a name is simple. In MY opinion(FWIW), the builder is NOT SUSPECT here!!
I have only had 3 different people build engines for me, and I can assure anyone here, all 3 are top notch and I would not hesitate to ask them to build me another one tomorrow.   :tu:
This is a stock crank that Dave lightened and balanced. Not a weld up, but not a billet either.

I can assure everyone here that I am not calling ANYONE out by posting this. I ran the dog shit out of this motor in S. Florida. I'm not so sure that anyone's shit could have held up to that torture.  :hys:

For now, I wanna get this engine back up and running to get my long bike together, and the other engine will be headed back to Knecum for a billet crank.


Johnny. That's the oil pan sump with all that metal in it.  :shock:
208.6mph/ Texas Mile. 10/24/2010

Offline knecum

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Re: Cause of losing #3 rod bearing.
« Reply #27 on: December 11, 2013, 07:40:26 AM »
Now that's funny!!!!__ :hys:    but this still stands for everyone building a stroker and I'm sure the builder did his best. Then I posted all this for nothing for him!!!! :tu:

Offline SLEEPERBUSA

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Re: Cause of losing #3 rod bearing.
« Reply #28 on: December 11, 2013, 07:43:01 AM »
 :hys:

All good brother.

Still a good write up.  :tu:  :tu:
208.6mph/ Texas Mile. 10/24/2010

Offline knecum

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Re: Cause of losing #3 rod bearing.
« Reply #29 on: December 11, 2013, 07:53:35 AM »
If side clearance is under .005 there can be a problem. I had to have a set of rods machined to achieve the clearance desired. If its to tight the oil can't escape and it over heats.

Offline RansomT

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Re: Cause of losing #3 rod bearing.
« Reply #30 on: December 11, 2013, 10:38:25 AM »
Did you or have you burn a clutch?    If the pickup gets blocked, bearings go .....
Fastest 1.5-Mile Pass - 252.222
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Offline SLEEPERBUSA

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Re: Cause of losing #3 rod bearing.
« Reply #31 on: December 11, 2013, 11:47:45 AM »
Nope. No clutch issues at all.
208.6mph/ Texas Mile. 10/24/2010

Offline Johnnnycheese

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Re: Cause of losing #3 rod bearing.
« Reply #32 on: December 11, 2013, 11:58:47 AM »
Steve not your build
 Chris when ou have some time call me.
I di not think it was a build issue nor a fuel issue. It has to do with it happened. Steve I should have brought you the rod out do my turbo bike bearing and crank fine but rod was twisted in half.
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Offline knecum

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Re: Cause of losing #3 rod bearing.
« Reply #33 on: December 11, 2013, 12:57:12 PM »
Steve not your build
 Chris when ou have some time call me.
I di not think it was a build issue nor a fuel issue. It has to do with it happened. Steve I should have brought you the rod out do my turbo bike bearing and crank fine but rod was twisted in half.
I took apart one of bills motors one time that had a bent rod and everything else good!!

Offline speedduck

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Re: Cause of losing #3 rod bearing.
« Reply #34 on: December 11, 2013, 01:00:18 PM »
If side clearance is under .005 there can be a problem. I had to have a set of rods machined to achieve the clearance desired. If its to tight the oil can't escape and it over heats.
What about .01 and over ? Does it affect oil pressure or not enough to cause problems

Maybe it`s just time to refresh the engine ,Chris. Somebody said i was lucky when had an engine failure after 12 one mile runs, it could have broken much earlier, it didnīt help at that time..

Offline knecum

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Re: Cause of losing #3 rod bearing.
« Reply #35 on: December 11, 2013, 08:03:32 PM »
.010 is about max, I like .007  I don't think it will effect it that much as long as its not .015

Offline Johnnnycheese

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Re: Cause of losing #3 rod bearing.
« Reply #36 on: December 11, 2013, 10:20:57 PM »
Steve not your build
 Chris when ou have some time call me.
I di not think it was a build issue nor a fuel issue. It has to do with it happened. Steve I should have brought you the rod out do my turbo bike bearing and crank fine but rod was twisted in half.
I took apart one of bills motors one time that had a bent rod and everything else good!!
Not only twisted but broke in half and went through the starter motor and cases.
I am feeling better call you soon.
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Offline Competition CNC

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Re: Cause of losing #3 rod bearing.
« Reply #37 on: December 13, 2013, 07:31:14 AM »
I'm not pointing any fingers so please, no one take this the wrong way.

At this point I think all would agree its an oiling issue.   Detonation usually will pound the mains out.
So there could be a few reasons.

The oil flow threw the rod bearings may not have been enough to cool the crank.
The oil viscosity used should be matched to the bearing clearances.
The rod side clearance should be at least .002" thou more than the rod bearing clearance.
The oil could have been too hot and the crank and rods overheated.  This isn't common in drag racing its more of a circle track issue but could be a problem in land speed racing.
The oil delivery volume could have been to low.
The oil could have been foaming up.  Motorcycle oil has extra anti-foaming additives vs automotive oils.  Diesel oil has very little anti-foaming additives because the rpms are so low.
The oil pump pickup could have been sucking air or been partially blocked from debris.
The oil level could have been low and it was sucking air from a vortex in the pan.

The list goes on and on.

Because the engine lasted as long as it did id say the problem wasn't a problem until later in the engines life. Or it it was asked to do something it hadn't been asked to do before.

But the bottom line is when you have a rod bearing failure these days its usually an oil supply issue to the rod bearings or contamination in the oil. The days of bearing delamination are long gone, no more pre-heating bearings!!

Careful dis assembly and inspection of the engine should help reveal more clues.

On another note... when we have Dave at Marine do our weldup cranks we have them remove the peened ball plugs and tap the cranks for thread in plugs. This way the plugs can be removed and the cranks can be properly cleaned to remove all the grinding slurry from the dead end oil passages in the rod journals.


Jim

Offline SLEEPERBUSA

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Re: Cause of losing #3 rod bearing.
« Reply #38 on: December 13, 2013, 09:33:34 AM »
I'm not pointing any fingers so please, no one take this the wrong way.

At this point I think all would agree its an oiling issue.   Detonation usually will pound the mains out.
So there could be a few reasons.

The oil flow threw the rod bearings may not have been enough to cool the crank.
The oil viscosity used should be matched to the bearing clearances.
The rod side clearance should be at least .002" thou more than the rod bearing clearance.
The oil could have been too hot and the crank and rods overheated.  This isn't common in drag racing its more of a circle track issue but could be a problem in land speed racing. I made 17, 9/10th passes in 7 hours. << That was some torture, I would guess?? :hys:
The oil delivery volume could have been to low. Hi volume gear and hi pressure relief valve, I've been told that this may cause cavitation??
The oil could have been foaming up.  Motorcycle oil has extra anti-foaming additives vs automotive oils. Automotive Mobil1
 Diesel oil has very little anti-foaming additives because the rpms are so low.
The oil pump pickup could have been sucking air or been partially blocked from debris. Doubt it was plugged or blocked as clutches are perfect, but not ruling anything out at this point.
The oil level could have been low and it was sucking air from a vortex in the pan. Not low at start, but may have pumped everything to the top and starved the bottom?? Thoughts??

The list goes on and on.

Because the engine lasted as long as it did id say the problem wasn't a problem until later in the engines life. Or it it was asked to do something it hadn't been asked to do before. YES!! It lasted off of the dyno. I think if it had a problem then, it would have been exposed at that point. Actually 2 long dyno sessions on 2 different days.

But the bottom line is when you have a rod bearing failure these days its usually an oil supply issue to the rod bearings or contamination in the oil. The days of bearing delamination are long gone, no more pre-heating bearings!!

Careful dis assembly and inspection of the engine should help reveal more clues. I should have pictures this weekend

On another note... when we have Dave at Marine do our weldup cranks we have them remove the peened ball plugs and tap the cranks for thread in plugs. This way the plugs can be removed and the cranks can be properly cleaned to remove all the grinding slurry from the dead end oil passages in the rod journals.
208.6mph/ Texas Mile. 10/24/2010

Offline speedduck

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Re: Cause of losing #3 rod bearing.
« Reply #39 on: December 13, 2013, 01:21:29 PM »
I took apart one of bills motors one time that had a bent rod and everything else good!!

Like this one ?  :whstl:

Offline Johnnnycheese

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Re: Cause of losing #3 rod bearing.
« Reply #40 on: December 13, 2013, 01:26:07 PM »
Since I can not drive right now meds.... My o will be hi in about 4 hrs and I will b able to take pics, hey are nothing like that
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Offline SLEEPERBUSA

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Re: Cause of losing #3 rod bearing.
« Reply #41 on: December 13, 2013, 01:54:42 PM »
Since I can not drive right now meds.... My o will be hi in about 4 hrs and I will b able to take pics, hey are nothing like that

I'm pretty sure with that grammar you better stay on the couch....  :hys:
208.6mph/ Texas Mile. 10/24/2010

Offline dadofthree

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Re: Cause of losing #3 rod bearing.
« Reply #42 on: December 13, 2013, 03:49:43 PM »
Good meds  :tu:

Offline Johnnnycheese

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Re: Cause of losing #3 rod bearing.
« Reply #43 on: December 13, 2013, 08:13:00 PM »
Must have been just came to will take pic tomorrow
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Offline Jay

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Re: Cause of losing #3 rod bearing.
« Reply #44 on: December 14, 2013, 01:59:45 AM »
The first post said it had a stock crank. If you need a new stock crank, call us, we have them race balanced, on the shelf, ready to ship.

http://aperaceparts.com/mailers/08busacranks.html
« Last Edit: December 14, 2013, 02:02:57 AM by Jay »