1 Mile Records,,

[entropy]

Flamimg Roo,
I agree with you (in theory) that bringing all asphalt orgs under a single "governing" org to assure consistency in safety requirements, classes, records has benefits. 

I ain't trying to piss in yr Wheaties, nope.

My experience just puts me on the other side of the fence.

In early 2013, I was at Bill Warner's right hand when we contacted the other asphalt events for general coordination of the planned Houston Mile with existing events:
 Tim at Loring (positive response),
 Joe at ECTA (positive response),
 Mike at Mojave (vaguely negative response),
 Shannon at the Texas Mile ("take a hike").

After hearing their uneven responses and cogitating on probable causes, I now have no energy about making it happen. 

Basically:
1. I LIKE the individual LSR events and truly enjoy/appreciate their very different personalities.
2. I LIKE the ephemeral nature of records; takes the bitter competitiveness down a notch.
3. I don't see any way cross-organization records would have true meaning (this is arguable).
4. Even different events within the same org make true records problematic (wind direction).
5. I do see how sharing safety info would be valuable, but because of liability issues, REAL root cause analysis WILL NEVER BE SHARED

Since you and others have energy to pursue this, I honestly say: "go, men, GO!"

[speedduck]

Yes, definitely, go.
But dont make the rules too tight, there is always some factors that will benefit some events and riders over others, just accept it and call it luck, if somebody is faster than you 

Is that sender/receiver distance really 132` , 40 metres that is ?  So, how wide they are ? How wide is track ? In UK they use two sets, two lanes. At least, when i was there.

[entropy]

Yes, definitely, go.
But dont make the rules too tight, there is always some factors that will benefit some events and riders over others, just accept it and call it luck, if somebody is faster than you 

Is that sender/receiver distance really 132` , 40 metres that is ?  So, how wide they are ? How wide is track ? In UK they use two sets, two lanes. At least, when i was there.

The send/receive pairs are oriented across the width of the track, generally 50-150' between send & receive equipment

The 1st pair is generally 132' before the finish line, the 2nd pair is generally at the finish line.

The 1st pair starts a "clock" when tripped, the 2nd pair stops the clock when tripped.
With just a lil arithmetic, elapsed time over 132' yields the ave mph for that interval

I might be wrong about the 132'?? maybe 128?  Anyway, a fixed distance.

[Frank06]

Karl,

It is 132 feet or 1/40th of a mile (same as most drag strips). 

For fun: run a sensibility analysis on the impact of a 1" error in timing light placement over the 132'.  (At 300 mph constant speed a 1"error would result in a measured difference of about .2 mph if I did the arithmetic correctly.) I know that at Loring the State comes in with some sort of sophisticated measuring equipment which I believe is laser based.  Having participated in light placement I would be surprised if there is more than 1/4" error in setting up to their marks.  I guess I believe that it would be possible to have believable consistency from track to track in light placement.

In any case, I think the key is to develop the sport to the point where more and more people want to participate.  That would make it easier to have more events where the sanctioning organizations don't end up competing with each other for racers' limited time and money.



Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk 2

[speedduck]

For fun: run a sensibility analysis on the impact of a 1" error in timing light placement over the 132'.  (At 300 mph constant speed a 1"error would result in a measured difference of about .2 mph if I did the arithmetic correctly.) I know that at Loring the State comes in with some sort of sophisticated measuring equipment which I believe is laser based.  Having participated in light placement I would be surprised if there is more than 1/4" error in setting up to their marks.  I guess I believe that it would be possible to have believable consistency from track to track in light placement.

There is one issue, no point to give the speed to 1/1000 accuracy, 0.1mph would be just enough, if there is 0.01mph difference, thats splitting hair.

[JHerheim]

There is one issue, no point to give the speed to 1/1000 accuracy, 0.1mph would be just enough, if there is 0.01mph difference, thats splitting hair.

Though you may believe that statement, but I'm going to respectfully disagree.  If we go back to Mr. Guthrie's point of spending $25000 towards getting his name in a record book (many records).  I'd think splitting hairs is totally necessary.

[Got-Busa?]

Yep, I've seen several races go down to .001 difference in winning and losing.

[osti33]

Flamimg Roo,
I agree with you (in theory) that bringing all asphalt orgs under a single "governing" org to assure consistency in safety requirements, classes, records has benefits. 

I ain't trying to piss in yr Wheaties, nope.

My experience just puts me on the other side of the fence.

In early 2013, I was at Bill Warner's right hand when we contacted the other asphalt events for general coordination of the planned Houston Mile with existing events:
 Tim at Loring (positive response),
 Joe at ECTA (positive response),
 Mike at Mojave (vaguely negative response),
 Shannon at the Texas Mile ("take a hike").

After hearing their uneven responses and cogitating on probable causes, I now have no energy about making it happen. 

Basically:
1. I LIKE the individual LSR events and truly enjoy/appreciate their very different personalities.
2. I LIKE the ephemeral nature of records; takes the bitter competitiveness down a notch.
3. I don't see any way cross-organization records would have true meaning (this is arguable).
4. Even different events within the same org make true records problematic (wind direction).
5. I do see how sharing safety info would be valuable, but because of liability issues, REAL root cause analysis WILL NEVER BE SHARED

Since you and others have energy to pursue this, I honestly say: "go, men, GO!"

I agree with Karl here. It would be interesting but the fact of the matter is that it's not going to happen. You might be able to get one or two sanctioning bodies on board but you're going to have others that tell you to go pound sand.

It's more work for the sanctioning body with no real benefit (MONEY) to them. Plus, who's going to police it? The racers? The sanctioning body? I don't know about you guys but every track I've ever been to I've seen guys racing in the wrong class or running a fender or bodywork that isn't legal for the class they are running.

Their is no impound or inspection for records. Just your word that you're legal for which ever class you registered for. Hard to have any kind of general 1 mile records for all venues like that.

It's a cool idea. The one rule/record book for all. Not sure how it would work though.

[osti33]

Yep, I've seen several races go down to .001 difference in winning and losing.

Me too!! I've been on both sides of races like that.

[FlaminRoo]

hay fellas, i have niether the will or desire at 62yo to start a World/National orginisation, thats best left for somewon much younger, hopefully the seed has been planted and somewon will step forward, ,,

what promped this thread was that i went searching in the Standing Mile list for the fastest recorded 1350 MPS/F speed, pukk, 31 pages, theres gotta be a better way,, also, should we ever loose this site, history will be lost, ,,

Wishing all "Faster Speeds" in 2014,,,

[scott g]

hay fellas, i have niether the will or desire at 62yo
to start a World/National orginisation, thats best
left for somewon much younger, hopefully the seed
has been planted and somewon will step forward, ,,

what promped this thread was that i went searching
in the Standing Mile list for the fastest recorded 1350 MPS/F speed,
pukk, 31 pages, theres gotta be a better way,,
also, should we ever loose this site, history will be lost, ,,

Wishing all "Faster Speeds" in 2014,,,

A complete "set" of "Best record in the mile" for
ALL classes would be quite difficult. 

It has been several years since I added them
up for Bonneville, but the number 2850 different
classes total seems both familiar and close.....

Of course, there would be MANY more for
ECTA and Loring, which have records for
Classic bikes, 2-stroke and Rotary engines.

That might mean a total of 3,500 records.

Fortunately, this is a HAYABUSA site,
so we do not need to worry about blown,
2-stroke, fuel, classic, pushrod sidecar streamliners.

Suitable classes could be
A/G, A/F, A/BG, A/BF, APS/G, APS/F, APS/BG, APS/BF,
M/G, M/F, M/BG, M/BF, MPS/G, MPS/F, MPS/BG and MPS/BF,
in the 1350, 1650 and 2000cc classes.

THAT, is only 16 x 3 = 48 records.

And, for pavement, that means having to know ONLY
the records from Maxton (ECTA),
Ohio (ECTA), and Loring in the mile.

Sand Hills, Michigan, Texas / Goliad, Texas / Beeville,
Texas / Houston, Mojave essentially have only one (1)
record each - and that is the track record.

Seems pretty doable........

[speedduck]

Yep, I've seen several races go down to .001 difference in winning and losing.

Me too!! I've been on both sides of races like that.

And you`re talking about one mile, yes ?
Last year i ended up sharing seasons record with someone, when using .1mph accuracy, but i`m happy with it, we`ll continue the "battle" this year 
I`m slowly getting the picture of the situation which you have in US, there is so much competitors and classes that you have same kind of bikes with similar results, there must be .01 and .001 differencies.
48 classes for Hayabusa is a lot, we had 2 last year, don`t have to worry about if somebody had a fender or not   

[entropy]

At Bonneville (and Loring & Ohio) the number of classes is like the Special Olympics.
A plethora of body classes and a gang of cc/aspiration/fuel classes.
Almost everyone can compete in a class which they have a passion about, win a record.
I understand it someone who just loves his lil 250 Zinger.

But the folks who collect massive numbers of records by entering a zillion different classes?
I don't understand them.

On the other hand, Scott's 48 meaningful classes are too many


I favor:
3 body styles:
All out - Like Bill Warner's track bike
modified - like most bikes
stock - see what the stock appearance can do

3 engine sizes
under 1000cc
1000-1350
1350-2000

2 aspiration modes
NA
blown

now we are down from 48 to 18 classes

But whats the point?
All the folks who currently race in a meaningful class KNOW who is their competition.

For example, all stock motored 1000cc fans know that 212 is the number to beat.
It was run at Texas where there are no classes.
It was run in a big tail wind.
Hell, it was run by a GIRL!!
But it's the number to beat
Karl

[scott g]

On the other hand, Scott's 48 meaningful classes are too many


I favor:
3 body styles:
All out - Like Bill Warner's track bike
modified - like most bikes
stock - see what the stock appearance can do

3 engine sizes
under 1000cc
1000-1350
1350-2000

2 aspiration modes
NA
blown

now we are down from 48 to 18 classes

What about nitrous ?

[SEJ]

On the other hand, Scott's 48 meaningful classes are too many


I favor:
3 body styles:
All out - Like Bill Warner's track bike
modified - like most bikes
stock - see what the stock appearance can do

3 engine sizes
under 1000cc
1000-1350
1350-2000

2 aspiration modes
NA
blown

now we are down from 48 to 18 classes

What about nitrous ?

Good question.

Even though nitrous is a "chemical supercharger", it's at a disadvantage to turbos and superchargers at the same displacement. Drag racing organizations give a displacement/weight break to nitrous vehicles to even the playing field.

Which makes Ransom's 238.6 all the more impressive running a stock displacement gen 1!

[scott g]

What about nitrous ?

Good question.

Even though nitrous is a "chemical supercharger", it's at a disadvantage to turbos and superchargers at the same displacement. Drag racing organizations give a displacement/weight break to nitrous vehicles to even the playing field.

Which makes Ransom's 238.6 all the more impressive running a stock displacement gen 1!

What about NAKED ?

[speedduck]

For example, all stock motored 1000cc fans know that 212 is the number to beat.
It was run at Texas where there are no classes.
It was run in a big tail wind.
Hell, it was run by a GIRL!!
But it's the number to beat
Karl

I thought that 200.7mph with almost stock BMW 1000RR was fast, wow.
What about n/a, what does this mean ? And are these up to date ?

39   Colt "TinTin" Bateman   230.446   LOR12   ****FASTEST NA****
42.1   Jennifer Robertson (9secondJen)      229.963   LOR13   ****FASTEST NA W/TICKET****

[fvance]

That means that Colt did not get an official time slip. "Somebody" did not pay the 100 bucks to get timed in the mile!! Jenn paid the money and got the time slip.

[speedduck]

Oh, i just remembered this mentioned somewhere. But he got a unofficial time slip then ?

[FlaminRoo]

gentleman, all of the above, the present system is a mess, "It Needs Direction",, the way it is at the moment a record is only good for bragging rights at the local bar,,,

[scott g]

gentleman, all of the above, the present system
is a mess, "It Needs Direction",,

 the way it is at the moment a record is only good
for bragging rights at the local bar,,,

We can simplify further.

1)  This is a Hayabusa Board.

2)  Hayabusa is by far the dominant
player in the fastest forms of LSR

3)  For LSR, displacement does not
enhance speed with the turbo

4)  The fastest bikes are all about 1300-1400 cc.

5)  Bikes with good aero are FAR faster than Naked.

A) Skip the 1000cc class.

B)  Skip all displacement classes.

C) Skip "Naked" classes.

D) skip "fuel" classes for Turbo

You are left with:

Turbo, modified body.........= Bill Warner @ 296 MPH
Turbo, Stock Body..............= Dean Sabatinelli @ 269 mph
NA, Nitrous modified body = Ransom Holbrook @ 238.6   WIL13
NA, gasoline, modified body = ????
NA, gasoline, stock body .....= ????
NA, Nitrous, stock body........ = ????

[scott g]

There is one issue, no point to give
the speed to 1/1000 accuracy, 0.1mph
would be just enough,

if there is 0.01mph, difference,
thats splitting hair.

I LIKE this split hair !

9    Scott Guthrie (scottg)           251.147   GOL04   
10   John Noonan                       251.1       MOJ10   

[SEJ]

For example, all stock motored 1000cc fans know that 212 is the number to beat.
It was run at Texas where there are no classes.
It was run in a big tail wind.
Hell, it was run by a GIRL!!
But it's the number to beat
Karl

I thought that 200.7mph with almost stock BMW 1000RR was fast, wow.

Don't kid yourself. That BMW meets the "stock appearing" rules. Probably a fully blue printed engine, no base gasket, thinner head gasket, degreed cams, race ecu, ceramic bearings, etc. Not to mention that it comes with a factory quick shifter. I don't know what the "big tail wind" was, but it makes a substantial difference!

I ran 208.3 into a 13 mph head wind last September. Can anyone give me an idea what that would be in static conditions?

[entropy]

Oh, i just remembered this mentioned somewhere. But he got a unofficial time slip then ?

Colt's 230.446 @ the mile was timed and announced at the event.
BTW, Colt also ran 230.1xx the same day.
But like Fred says, some dumb ass never paid $100 to get the ticket.

I got the 230.446 from the event organizers who have it on their run log.
For me, that was proof enough he ran the speed.

For people who are collecting official record certificates, this "doesn't count", and I understand it.
For those speed enthusiasts who are looking to be "the fastest" it does count, and I understand it.

At first, I didn't add Colt's speed to the 200mph+ list, but several people explained to me why I should: "hell, he ran 230 twice, we all heard it..."

[entropy]

Don't kid yourself. That BMW meets the "stock appearing" rules. Probably a fully blue printed engine, no base gasket, thinner head gasket, degreed cams, race ecu, ceramic bearings, etc. Not to mention that it comes with a factory quick shifter. I don't know what the "big tail wind" was, but it makes a substantial difference!

I ran 208.3 into a 13 mph head wind last September. Can anyone give me an idea what that would be in static conditions?

"Valarie Thompson's 1000cc BMW has never had the head off, either before the 2013 Texas Mile or since".  I got that from a 110% unimpeachable source.
For comparison, she ran a 202 or some such number at Bonneville in 2013.
BTW: i was at that 2013 Texas event and seem to remember her running 212 twice, but can't swear to it.

For me, this shows:
1. how important a strong tailwind can be,
2. how important it is to go to every event you can, the one you miss will be the one with a big tail wind,
3. how difficult it is compare LSR speeds apple to apples, especially wrt head/tail winds

Your 208 into a head wind is fukken awesome.
A head wind can add mile-for-mile, or just a little bit depending on the strength & direction and persistance of the wind over the entire track. 
For my Busas, I recorded wind strength & direction at the starting line on every pass.  My asphalt Busa was sooo predictable I could usually predict trap speed within 1-2 mph just by looking at the TFA flag on my trailer.

Valarie's 212 didn't surprise me, but I was happy as hell for her, knowing that it would provoke bench racing discussions (like this one) for a long time