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Author Topic: Degreeing Cams for LSR  (Read 15150 times)

Offline 05calibusa

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Degreeing Cams for LSR
« on: February 01, 2014, 09:25:45 AM »
I've mentioned in at least one of my other posts that my peak Hp is made around 10,200 rpm and I would like to get that up in the 11,000-11,500 rpm range.  I have a 1441 Gen 1, with a ported head, 12.8:1 pistons, and .395/.378 Web cams degreed at 106.5/108.5.   I know that my cam and piston selection is a bit conservative, but it was done that way intentionally.   

My question is; Will degreeing the cams, to let's say 108.5/108.5, shift the peak power/rpm range higher?  At 10,200 rpm, I feel like I am throwing away that last 1,000 rpm and I could be putting it to good use.  Where are other LSR folks with similar setups running their cams, and at what rpm is your peak power made?

I have searched "degreeing cams" and read through a lot of the posts, but it's hard to filter through all of the BS that really doesn't apply.  I thought I saw a post from someone a while back where they were talking about degreeing cams for street vs. drag racing vs. LSR, but I can not find that post.  There was also another one where someone had a GSXR1000 up on the dyno and there was dyno data for cams degreed at different settings on the same bike.

I'm getting ready to tear it down and prep for Mojave...your recommendations are greatly appreciated.

Thanks,
Bob
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Offline zrxdean

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Re: Degreeing Cams for LSR
« Reply #1 on: February 01, 2014, 02:51:32 PM »
I think you could move your torque peak up a little with higher lobe centers, but I doubt 800-1300rpm. For that you might need more headwork, bigger cams, more compression, and so on. good luck, Dean

Offline Warp12

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Re: Degreeing Cams for LSR
« Reply #2 on: February 01, 2014, 07:25:07 PM »
Here is a crazy idea. Don't worry about your cams. Work on your setup and technique....5x the speed gain to be found there.

Shane

Offline 05calibusa

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Re: Degreeing Cams for LSR
« Reply #3 on: February 01, 2014, 08:02:41 PM »
Here is a crazy idea. Don't worry about your cams. Work on your setup and technique....5x the speed gain to be found there.

Shane

Well, that's really not so crazy, because those things don't cost too much to work on. 

I'm kinda dreading the thought of yanking the engine again, but I will do it if any gains can be made by tweaking the cams.  I would still like to hear some more inputs on that point. 

I still haven't convinced myself yet that this will be a dedicated race bike, that's why I didn't go all-in with the super high-comp pistons and big cams.

Any others on degreeing cams?
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Offline Warp12

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Re: Degreeing Cams for LSR
« Reply #4 on: February 01, 2014, 08:20:00 PM »
Here is a crazy idea. Don't worry about your cams. Work on your setup and technique....5x the speed gain to be found there.

Shane

Well, that's really not so crazy, because those things don't cost too much to work on. 

I'm kinda dreading the thought of yanking the engine again, but I will do it if any gains can be made by tweaking the cams.  I would still like to hear some more inputs on that point. 

I still haven't convinced myself yet that this will be a dedicated race bike, that's why I didn't go all-in with the super high-comp pistons and big cams.

Any others on degreeing cams?

Best case with a cam degree is moving the hp up in the rev range. 3-4 hp...aka 1mph. Bike setup, rider technique=way, way more...and no expense. My .02.

Shane

Offline entropy

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Re: Degreeing Cams for LSR
« Reply #5 on: February 03, 2014, 07:06:20 AM »
hell, its not a lot of work to change cam numbers...
but get very good dyno numbers on yr current set up, and be REAL SURE that you know yr current numbers
then go to 110/100, get good dyno data on them.

why not?

The 3 or 4 hp peak gain isn't so leveraging, but the rpm gain is very important on every shift.
yup :D
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Offline scott g

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Re: Degreeing Cams for LSR
« Reply #6 on: February 03, 2014, 08:19:43 AM »
hell, its not a lot of work to change cam numbers...
but get very good dyno numbers on yr current set up,
and be REAL SURE that you know yr current numbers
then go to 110/100, get good dyno data on them.

why not?

The 3 or 4 hp peak gain isn't so leveraging,
but the rpm gain is very important on every shift.
yup :D
(you do have a shift light, yes?)


I would carefully consider what both
Karl (Entropy) and Shane (Warp 12) have to say.

As Karl relates, changing the cam timing is something
that can be done in the dead of winter, when you just
HAVE to do SOMETHING, and racing is not an option.

If you can make the same power at LOWER rpm,
consider that your engine will last longer, with
 fewer "failed" runs for engine trouble.....

As Shane points out, technique is a BIG part of LSR. 

Several of us have noted here that we have "coached "
 riders to run the mile in TOP GEAR only, just so
they can concentrate on their "tuck."

This has resulted in runs that are nearly as fast as
using the whole 6 speeds in the
transmission - and a -10mph is about right.

If all 6 speeds are only "worth" 10 mph, how
much is 4 hp going to help a Busa ?

Find a way to practice your LAUNCH and your TUCK
when possible, when you are not in season. 

When the season does arrive,
you will be much more prepared...

Still, everything helps, and you are at absolute
maximum now, that the 4 HP is peace of mind.

Besides, good dyno numbers in February mean
more confidence in the season.

Offline fvance

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Re: Degreeing Cams for LSR
« Reply #7 on: February 03, 2014, 09:12:34 AM »
You can run shorter velocity stacks and shorten your exhaust.
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Offline RansomT

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Re: Degreeing Cams for LSR
« Reply #8 on: February 03, 2014, 09:13:47 AM »
I assume Karl had a typo and ment 110/110, but before I recommend settings ....

A couple of questions... Do you have a current dyno sheet?      Who ported the head?


Gearing may have more of an impact.
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Offline 05calibusa

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Re: Degreeing Cams for LSR
« Reply #9 on: February 03, 2014, 03:08:44 PM »
I assume Karl had a typo and ment 110/110, but before I recommend settings ....

A couple of questions... Do you have a current dyno sheet?      Who ported the head?


Gearing may have more of an impact.

Yep, had it on the dyno last year before Mojave and my peak Hp came in around 10,200 rpm. 

I guess the reason I bring this up to begin with is when you plug the "max power rpm" into the gearing spreadsheet the mph goes higher as the "max power rpm" goes higher.  However, it is becoming apparent that the power is what it is and my issue might not be where I'm making the power in the rpm range...it's how much power I'm making.  Maybe Scott is right and I should be happy with peak power at 10,200.  On the other hand, if I can squeeze out a few more ponies by tweaking the cams then I might do it.   

The head was ported by Ward.  By the way, if I were to run them at 110/110, would I need an offset cam pin?
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Offline RansomT

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Re: Degreeing Cams for LSR
« Reply #10 on: February 03, 2014, 03:25:28 PM »
How fast did the peak fall off at 10,200 ?   Did it just drop, plateau, or fall off a cliff?
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Offline 05calibusa

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Re: Degreeing Cams for LSR
« Reply #11 on: February 03, 2014, 08:51:03 PM »
How fast did the peak fall off at 10,200 ?   Did it just drop, plateau, or fall off a cliff?

It drops off at about the same rate that it goes up.
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Offline RansomT

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Re: Degreeing Cams for LSR
« Reply #12 on: February 04, 2014, 06:03:57 AM »
I would start with cams at 110/112.  No need for offset pin.  Make sure you have all short stacks.

BTW, there are a lot of street ridden Busas with .425/.385 cams.
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Offline SEJ

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Re: Degreeing Cams for LSR
« Reply #13 on: February 04, 2014, 06:37:04 AM »
If you are using your tach for shift points, and not a shift light, they read around 400-600 rpm's higher than actual. So if you've been shifting around peak power by your tach, you're actually shifting to low...
« Last Edit: February 04, 2014, 06:41:42 AM by SEJ »
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Offline Warp12

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Re: Degreeing Cams for LSR
« Reply #14 on: February 04, 2014, 07:03:07 AM »
How fast did the peak fall off at 10,200 ?   Did it just drop, plateau, or fall off a cliff?

It drops off at about the same rate that it goes up.

I think I recall seeing this dyno chart. You have good porting too, right? If so, that seems like awfully early to drop off, imo. I'd start with checking out the basics, unless your combo is known to tank above 10k rpm, in other cases.

Shane

Offline 05calibusa

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Re: Degreeing Cams for LSR
« Reply #15 on: February 04, 2014, 07:52:52 AM »
Guys, thanks for the inputs!  Yes, I have a shift light and it is set to come on at 10,200.  I decided that I will pull the engine for piece of mind and to make sure nothing got hurt last year.  The head is ported...Ward head.  I planned on running short stacks this year...heard that GSXR1000 stacks work, but not sure what year to go after. 

Shane, when you refer to the "basics" what do you mean?  I was pretty meticulous about the build, i.e. piston to deck, squish, valve clearance, etc...

I was told by another forum member to take a look at my ignition map and set it up more like a Gen2, because he thought there was a bit more advance.  Does that make sense?

At 110/112 will that drastically reduce the valve clearance and will it be streetable at that setting?

Thanks,
Bob
Mojave Mile 2014 - 205.6 mph
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Offline RansomT

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Re: Degreeing Cams for LSR
« Reply #16 on: February 04, 2014, 08:13:49 AM »
Carpenter sets his street 210 wHP 1300cc drive in package at 112/114.

Assuming that your quench area is .40 , it should be fine for street use.
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Offline Warp12

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Re: Degreeing Cams for LSR
« Reply #17 on: February 04, 2014, 08:33:11 AM »
Guys, thanks for the inputs!  Yes, I have a shift light and it is set to come on at 10,200.  I decided that I will pull the engine for piece of mind and to make sure nothing got hurt last year.  The head is ported...Ward head.  I planned on running short stacks this year...heard that GSXR1000 stacks work, but not sure what year to go after. 

Shane, when you refer to the "basics" what do you mean?  I was pretty meticulous about the build, i.e. piston to deck, squish, valve clearance, etc...

I was told by another forum member to take a look at my ignition map and set it up more like a Gen2, because he thought there was a bit more advance.  Does that make sense?

At 110/112 will that drastically reduce the valve clearance and will it be streetable at that setting?

Thanks,
Bob

By the basics, I mean to double check everything that could cause the power to tank like that. Whether it is fuel supply, verifying cam timing, or whatever. Don't overlook the simple stuff.

What is your cam timing at now? Bigger numerical numbers will increase ptv clearance.

Going to short stacks will probably shift your torque peak up a few hundred rpm, but not always change your peak power.

As far as shift point, don't be afraid to rev a little higher than peak, especially in the lower gears. Use a gearing calculator and look at your power at the shift recovery rpm (you want strong hp there).

Shane

Offline 05calibusa

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Re: Degreeing Cams for LSR
« Reply #18 on: February 04, 2014, 09:18:03 AM »
Currenty 106.5/108.5

Any thoughts on ignition mapping for a bigger spread on the cams?  Are there differences between the Gen1 and Gen2 ignition maps, and is this something that I have to worry about when changing cam timing?

Thanks,
Bob
Mojave Mile 2014 - 205.6 mph
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Offline Warp12

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Re: Degreeing Cams for LSR
« Reply #19 on: February 04, 2014, 10:03:42 AM »
Currenty 106.5/108.5

Any thoughts on ignition mapping for a bigger spread on the cams?  Are there differences between the Gen1 and Gen2 ignition maps, and is this something that I have to worry about when changing cam timing?

Thanks,
Bob

I really can't offer any info on the ignition mapping. But you might post this in the All Motor Talk section, or PM "Knecum".  :thumb:

Shane

Offline RansomT

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Re: Degreeing Cams for LSR
« Reply #20 on: February 04, 2014, 10:11:08 AM »
Currenty 106.5/108.5

Any thoughts on ignition mapping for a bigger spread on the cams?  Are there differences between the Gen1 and Gen2 ignition maps, and is this something that I have to worry about when changing cam timing?

Thanks,
Bob

Gen 2s show 2-3 degrees more timing in the maps.  However, I'm not sure that ECUEditor correctly shows the final timing, but also Gen 1s you could run 89 octane.    With that said, what fuel are you running?
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Offline 05calibusa

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Re: Degreeing Cams for LSR
« Reply #21 on: February 04, 2014, 11:01:13 AM »
Last year I ran Chevron premium 91.  They have Shell 100 available in the pump here in Cali.  I was considering VP MR12 this year for Mojave.
Bob
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Offline RansomT

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Re: Degreeing Cams for LSR
« Reply #22 on: February 04, 2014, 11:26:37 AM »
Last year I ran Chevron premium 91.  They have Shell 100 available in the pump here in Cali.  I was considering VP MR12 this year for Mojave.
Bob

I would suggest leaving the timing alone but run MR12.   

I've had some bikes benefit by a couple of HP from 2-3 degrees added to the map, but some it makes no difference.
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Offline fvance

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Re: Degreeing Cams for LSR
« Reply #23 on: February 04, 2014, 12:33:54 PM »
I love that MR12. :thumb: We have tried moving the timing both ways and never gained anything.
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Offline dnhabusa

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Re: Degreeing Cams for LSR
« Reply #24 on: February 05, 2014, 03:31:23 AM »
I agree with Shane, if your power peak is at 10,200rpm then I'd set the shift light a little higher than that, to help recovery in the next gear.