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Author Topic: Looking to deglaze the cylinders.....  (Read 13614 times)

Offline LVBUSA

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Looking to deglaze the cylinders.....
« on: March 25, 2015, 09:09:35 AM »
Morning all !

                       Looking to use a flex hone to deglaze my cylinder walls.  Need to select the right grit and material.  What is the cylinder sleeve material and best grit for this application ?.  Company recommends Silicon Carbide for all steel liners.  240, 300, 400 grit ?......

Thanks for any insights here !!!

Thanks for the read, A.
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Offline fvance

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Re: Looking to deglaze the cylinders.....
« Reply #1 on: March 25, 2015, 10:36:10 AM »
There is no steel liner in a Hayabusa. Aluminum with a Nikasil plating,  very thin. Call Millenieum and see what they say. 1-888-779-6885
« Last Edit: March 25, 2015, 10:39:31 AM by fvance »
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Offline wildphil69

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Re: Looking to deglaze the cylinders.....
« Reply #2 on: March 25, 2015, 06:03:15 PM »
use a flat stone hone, hit it very quick just to get a crosshatch and you are done
Nitrous is like a hot chick with STD'S...You know you wanna hit it but your just not sure of the consequences.

Offline LVBUSA

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Re: Looking to deglaze the cylinders.....
« Reply #3 on: March 25, 2015, 06:57:58 PM »
Thank you gentlemen for the help.  So the walls were originally Nikasil treated aluminum.  Very interesting.  Any recommendation on grit for the flatstone ?.  #300 perhaps ?.  Light touch on the crosshatch.  Scrub it and done.

Owe you much ! A.
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Offline LVBUSA

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Re: Looking to deglaze the cylinders.....
« Reply #4 on: March 26, 2015, 07:44:01 AM »
240 ?...320?....if I'm looking to just quick hatch the cylinder I am leaning towards 320. Any input ?

And thank you again ! A.

PS  Have a call into Millenium. 
« Last Edit: March 26, 2015, 08:48:06 AM by LVBUSA »
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Offline mitch

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Re: Looking to deglaze the cylinders.....
« Reply #5 on: March 26, 2015, 08:56:15 AM »
aluminum oxide flex hone.i used a stone deglazer last year& rings never seated

Offline LVBUSA

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Re: Looking to deglaze the cylinders.....
« Reply #6 on: March 26, 2015, 09:03:33 AM »
I was doing some archive reading and there was talk of wrapping a flat stone hone with Scotch brite pads......old thread but interesting approach.  Thanks Mitch !.

A

PS Mitch, what grit ?. 
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Offline mitch

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Re: Looking to deglaze the cylinders.....
« Reply #7 on: March 26, 2015, 10:26:27 AM »
i ended up takeing another cylinder into a shop&had it cleaned up.not sure what grit.i,ve heard scotchbright works good also.

Offline LVBUSA

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Re: Looking to deglaze the cylinders.....
« Reply #8 on: March 26, 2015, 06:47:28 PM »
Well my take on Nikasil and Aluminum is that I'm looking to "lightly" crosshatch the cylinder rather than "score" hatch the cast iron surfaces like we did with heavier metal.  That the new rings will do their work in getting the texture worked down to a level where compression can be maintained if I do a standard hard ring break-in.......

My next question would have to be, do I use oil to soak the Scotch Brite pads, and what color do I use.  The green is a pretty heavy abrasive.  The red, (or brown ?) is a standard "hand" pad abrasive.  The old post I was reading talks about a "red" Scotch brite, but no talk of oiling.   

Thanks for the input very much Mitch !.   
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Offline mitch

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Re: Looking to deglaze the cylinders.....
« Reply #9 on: March 26, 2015, 07:15:47 PM »
some use brake clean&scotch brite.then when done,clean liners with wd 40 until  you can,t see any crap on rag

Offline wildphil69

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Re: Looking to deglaze the cylinders.....
« Reply #10 on: March 26, 2015, 07:42:15 PM »
I think mine is 320
Nitrous is like a hot chick with STD'S...You know you wanna hit it but your just not sure of the consequences.

Offline mitch

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Re: Looking to deglaze the cylinders.....
« Reply #11 on: March 26, 2015, 11:26:12 PM »
good information,right there,his no. don,t  lie

Offline Rocketgeezer

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Re: Looking to deglaze the cylinders.....
« Reply #12 on: March 27, 2015, 05:32:58 AM »
I used my stone cly hone but with 4 pads on it instead of two pads and two stones, then wrapped a sheet of red scotch bright around it and made a couple of quik passes with a shot of WD-40, the thing to keep in mind is you CANNOT REMOVE ANY MATERIAL from the cly walls that plating is super thin, in fact I put one together once that the cly looked good and did nothing, just put oil on it, it smoked a little for a while but after a good hard run it was fine,
The older you get do you notice you start chickening out way before the bike does

Offline LVBUSA

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Re: Looking to deglaze the cylinders.....
« Reply #13 on: March 27, 2015, 07:53:30 AM »
Looks like my suspicions about not damaging the cylinder walls with too much grit was correct with the aluminum/nikasil treatment from the factory . Where might I find this elusive "red" Scotchbrite ???....any links to this specific product ?. I do have a three stone hone tool, and could adapt the Scotchbrite to it.

This Motor had almost exactly 60,000 Amsoil miles on it when the hit and run guy dropped me on the freeway. The walls still look pristine with next to no meat missing on the walls above and below the ring surface.

I cannot thank you all enough for the technical insight, and personal experience related on this topic.

Is this the pad I'm looking for ?..... This is a 7447 Red, they also have an Ultra Fine 7448 Grade 6

28 Nov15: Did some extensive reading on the Nikasil / Aluminum combo.  The fact that the layer is super thin, and super hard makes honing a non-necessity.  It also makes the original texture, and durability of the plating very sustainable. If the Nikasil has been damaged, or the cylinder needs resizing then replating is in order.  Millennium seems to be the go-to shop there in Wisconsin, I put a call in for some feedback.  In the meantime, just about everything I find leans towards a good scrubbing with a mild Scotch brite pad "without" removing "any" material as was stated above.  Anything in the equivalent to a steel wool abrasive rating of 00 to 0000 is best.  When it comes to the flex hone approach, it is recommended a grit of 240, or "finer" (320-500-600+) is better if honing is warranted (and this is only recommended on "high" mileage cylinder walls).  Like it was stated above, no material needs to be removed.  Post-clean up includes plenty of clean towels, and WD 40 to remove oil, grit, and contaminants until the towels come out clean.  The texture and original crosshatch, unless damaged, should be preserved.  Ring material here is the weaker material.  What a reversal in design by my old standards.....A. 
« Last Edit: March 28, 2015, 06:58:06 PM by LVBUSA »
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Offline Rocketgeezer

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Re: Looking to deglaze the cylinders.....
« Reply #14 on: March 29, 2015, 06:56:53 PM »
Looks like my suspicions about not damaging the cylinder walls with too much grit was correct with the aluminum/nikasil treatment from the factory . Where might I find this elusive "red" Scotchbrite ???....any links to this specific product ?. I do have a three stone hone tool, and could adapt the Scotchbrite to it.

This Motor had almost exactly 60,000 Amsoil miles on it when the hit and run guy dropped me on the freeway. The walls still look pristine with next to no meat missing on the walls above and below the ring surface.

I cannot thank you all enough for the technical insight, and personal experience related on this topic.

Is this the pad I'm looking for ?..... This is a 7447 Red, they also have an Ultra Fine 7448 Grade 6

28 Nov15: Did some extensive reading on the Nikasil / Aluminum combo.  The fact that the layer is super thin, and super hard makes honing a non-necessity.  It also makes the original texture, and durability of the plating very sustainable. If the Nikasil has been damaged, or the cylinder needs resizing then replating is in order.  Millennium seems to be the go-to shop there in Wisconsin, I put a call in for some feedback.  In the meantime, just about everything I find leans towards a good scrubbing with a mild Scotch brite pad "without" removing "any" material as was stated above.  Anything in the equivalent to a steel wool abrasive rating of 00 to 0000 is best.  When it comes to the flex hone approach, it is recommended a grit of 240, or "finer" (320-500-600+) is better if honing is warranted (and this is only recommended on "high" mileage cylinder walls).  Like it was stated above, no material needs to be removed.  Post-clean up includes plenty of clean towels, and WD 40 to remove oil, grit, and contaminants until the towels come out clean.  The texture and original crosshatch, unless damaged, should be preserved.  Ring material here is the weaker material.  What a reversal in design by my old standards.....A.
Its not tough to find, just about any auto parts or auto paint store that supplys body shops has it, they probably have it in all flavors, red, green and white, corsest to finest, like I said you really want to do nothing more than a good cleaning,
The older you get do you notice you start chickening out way before the bike does

Offline LVBUSA

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Re: Looking to deglaze the cylinders.....
« Reply #15 on: March 30, 2015, 03:54:45 AM »
Geezer, Mitch, Wildphil....

                        The more I learn about this machine, and the technology that goes into these newer generation power plants the more I enjoy the learning experience.  The fact that we used to hone the cylinder, and/or oversize the pistons with the "rings as a constant" to the cylinder wall wear, compared to now our "pistons and cylinders are the constant" and our ring wear is what we examine just amazes me.  The idea that we're running plated aluminum cylinder walls that have little to no wear characteristic unless you seize the piston is just fascinating.  Beyond extended service, of course. 

Well, that makes the job a whole lot simpler, and all I need is the tranny and head sent off for work.  I'll mike the crank, rods, and bores.  Deal with anything that's out of spec, and when the big parts get back, get her back on her feet.  In the meantime, I'll get the old base gasket remnants off, and pick up some Scotch Bright at Home Depot in the morning. 

Your help is greatly appreciated !!!  Can't thank you enough for the education here Gentlemen.....   
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Offline sportbikeryder

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Re: Looking to deglaze the cylinders.....
« Reply #16 on: March 30, 2015, 09:40:19 AM »
I use a flex hone, aluminum oxide, I believe it is 320 grit, but I'd have to confirm. Used it MANY times, from stock motors up to 550+ hp turbo applications.

I put some engine oil in the cylinder, and put the hone on a drill. Give it 7-8 strokes and move to the next. Be sure to do the cylinder bores prior to addressing the deck surface of the block..

http://www.enginehones.com/314320ao.html


John
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Offline speedduck

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Re: Looking to deglaze the cylinders.....
« Reply #17 on: March 30, 2015, 11:37:34 AM »
Are you sure the plating is super thin ? I had this cylinder block and there seemed to be either scratch or a crack, couldn`t see it and i brought it to machine shop where they took a couple tenths off, there was no crack, so it`s good for reboring. But the thing is, you can still see the plating in one small patch on the bottom area.

Offline LVBUSA

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Re: Looking to deglaze the cylinders.....
« Reply #18 on: March 30, 2015, 04:18:44 PM »
I use a flex hone, aluminum oxide, I believe it is 320 grit, but I'd have to confirm. Used it MANY times, from stock motors up to 550+ hp turbo applications.

I put some engine oil in the cylinder, and put the hone on a drill. Give it 7-8 strokes and move to the next. Be sure to do the cylinder bores prior to addressing the deck surface of the block..

http://www.enginehones.com/314320ao.html


John

Hey John,

               Please explain to me your method in doing the bores first, then the deck surface second......Just curious....and thanks, you Sir have also been very helpful in the past....A.
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Offline sportbikeryder

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Re: Looking to deglaze the cylinders.....
« Reply #19 on: March 31, 2015, 09:04:59 AM »
Reason to use the hone prior to addressing the cylinder deck:  When you use a flex hone on a cylinder, you have to allow the hone to come out of the cylinder a bit for each stroke. When you do, the "balls" expand out and can scratch the deck surface of the block. Running the hone in (and scratching the surface) first, allows cleanup of the deck after.
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Offline LVBUSA

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Re: Looking to deglaze the cylinders.....
« Reply #20 on: April 01, 2015, 07:46:00 AM »
Good stuff John, thank you for the clarification. A.
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Offline speedduck

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Re: Looking to deglaze the cylinders.....
« Reply #21 on: April 01, 2015, 11:50:58 AM »
Rebored 0.015" from stock,


Offline LVBUSA

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Re: Looking to deglaze the cylinders.....
« Reply #22 on: April 01, 2015, 06:47:15 PM »
Did you replate the cylinder ?.  It is stated that the Nikasil is only a few thousandsths thick ?.  Curious.....
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Offline speedduck

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Re: Looking to deglaze the cylinders.....
« Reply #23 on: April 02, 2015, 07:41:34 AM »
It`s going for reboring and replating, but not done yet.
Earlier i had a damage in similar cylinder block which peeled the plating off in small area, there was small chips, but not so thin, of hard plating fallen off